Tibbit

[Smorgonoffz]

Does a tibbit warlock, in his feline form need the feat to cast spell in animal form to use his power?

[Alex12]

Does a tibbit warlock, in his feline form need the feat to cast spell in animal form to use his power?

Technically there is no such feat. Per RAW, Natural Spell is Wild Shape-specific. That said, I'm sure a reasonable DM would be more than willing to allow it to count.

As for your actual question, warlock invocations, including eldritch blast, have somatic components, so you can't normally cast them while transformed.

[HunterOfJello]

You should be able to do so if you took the feat Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species. It lets you replace verbal and somatic components for spells with those appropriate for your form. The example it gives is an eagle screeching and waving around its talons.


Your DM could say that Surrogate Spellcasting is for spells and that by RAW this is not a legal use of the feat since you are using spell-like abilities, but that would be dumb.

[Necroticplague]

Surrogate Spellcasting from savage species would work. Requires WIS 13, though.

[Doc_Maynot]

Seeing as your only issue is somatic components to which the class says are "relatively simple" I would leave it up to a DM call. IMHO, you shouldn't due to the nature of SLAs, which all invocations are.

[Chronos]

Quoth HunterOfJello:

Your DM could say that Surrogate Spellcasting is for spells and that by RAW this is not a legal use of the feat since you are using spell-like abilities, but that would be dumb.
If the feat doesn't work, then by exactly the same argument, you wouldn't need it at all. By strict RAW, spell-like abilities aren't spells, and can be used in any form.

[Darrin]

If the feat doesn't work, then by exactly the same argument, you wouldn't need it at all. By strict RAW, spell-like abilities aren't spells, and can be used in any form.

Except Invocations are SLAs with a somatic components, which require at least one human-like hand. Hence, you need something like Surrogate Spellcasting.

Actually, I can see some DMs just handwaving the somatic requirement and just say your natural paw movements work just fine, but some DMs might be sticklers for RAW.

[John Longarrow]

Talk to your DM.

You may need a feat to cast in HUMAN form if your natively a cat. ☻

[Ruethgar]

Tibbits are natively cats and I believe there was a rule somewhere that said creatures with SLAs/Spells etc. could cast in their native form. This was primarily intended for dragons as I recall, but Tibbits work too. Because of the other rules on somatic components you would not need a feat to cast in human form.

[Socratov]

Surrogate Spellcasting from savage species would work. Requires WIS 13, though.

and this is a problem how exactly?

[Red Fel]

Tibbits are natively cats and I believe there was a rule somewhere that said creatures with SLAs/Spells etc. could cast in their native form. This was primarily intended for dragons as I recall, but Tibbits work too. Because of the other rules on somatic components you would not need a feat to cast in human form.

Tibbits are not natively cats, and cannot use SLAs with somatic components in cat form. Specifically, the following quotes apply:

At will, as a standard action, a tibbit can transform into a house cat.
A tibbit's cat form is unable to speak or use her paws to manipulate fine objects. She cannot cast spells with a verbal or somatic component, use scrolls, or otherwise activate magic items.
A tibbit slain in cat form reverts to her humanoid form after 1 round.
Any spell that reveals the true nature of a creature under the effects of polymorph shows the truth behind a tibbit's cat guise.

In short: The Tibbit's native form is monstrous humanoid, not kitty. This is shown by the fact that it reverts to humanoid when slain, and the fact that feline form is described as a "guise." The Tibbit cannot perform somatic gestures, even simple ones, while in feline form. This is explicitly stated.
Surrogate Spellcasting (SS) fixes these problems.

[Chronos]

She cannot perform somatic components of spells in cat form. It doesn't say anything about spell-like abilities.

[Red Fel]

She cannot perform somatic components of spells in cat form. It doesn't say anything about spell-like abilities.

Quoth the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components):
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
And quoth the Warlock class:
Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of his invocations while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like arcane spellcasters, a warlock wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations, including eldritch blast, have a somatic component).
And once more, quoth the Tibbit description:
A tibbit's cat form is unable to speak or use her paws to manipulate fine objects. She cannot cast spells with a verbal or somatic component, use scrolls, or otherwise activate magic items.

Putting it all together: A somatic component, regardless of the source, requires precise manual dexterity. Specifically, hands. If specific exceptions exist, they are specific. All Warlock invocations have a somatic component. They thus require hands. A Tibbit lacks manual dexterity, because it lacks anything resembling hands. Paws do not constitute hands. Explicitly, a Tibbit cannot cast spells. Implicitly, a Tibbit cannot use an SLA that requires a somatic component, because explicitly, she has no hands with which to perform it. One feat (Surrogate Spellcasting) fixes the whole problem. One feat.

[Alex12]

Hell, not just Surrogate Spellcasting.
Natural Spell.
Granted, neither of them is exactly the same (since Surrogate Spellcasting specifies spells) but there's the appeal to reasonableness. Natural Spell is a Core feat. Is a Tibbit warlock who can shoot laser blasts while in kitty form really better than a Druid who can turn into a bear while riding a bear and summoning bears? (Hint: it's not)

[Ruethgar]

A Tibbit is a magical cat that became a monstrous humanoid, not a monstrous humanoid that learned to change into a cat. Though in reference to game mechanics they go with the later, I assume because there is some taboo against animal/magical beast player characters. Also, although the connotation of hand refers to the general humanoid form ranging from three fingered alien spellcasters to seven finger's double jointed evil cat people, various definitions can easy include the paws of a house cat as a hand(though skeletally speaking it is the entire distal part of their leg, not just the paw).

[HunterOfJello]

Natural Spell.

Natural Spell only works for Wild Shape. Wild Shape is a very specific and unique for of shape changing that appears in core. Natural Spell noticeably doesn't work for the polymorph spells or for creatures that can change their form in other ways such as lycanthropes.

You can argue that there should be a version of the feat Natural Spell for creatures that alter their form in other ways, but Natural Spell is both RAW and RAI not intended for that use.

Surrogate Spellcasting is the same ultimate result as Natural Spell, but it has a very different area of operations. Actually, if a character meets the pre-reqs for it, surrogate spellcasting should always be taken instead of natural spell. That way you can still cast spells in all the other alternate forms that druids can obtain using polymorphing spells.

[Alex12]

A Tibbit is a magical cat that became a monstrous humanoid, not a monstrous humanoid that learned to change into a cat.

Nope. Just because many of them spend most of their time in cat-form doesn't mean that's their native form. They revert to humanoid shape when they die, for one thing. Also, the first sentence of their description:
"Tibbits (also known as catweres) are small, humanoid creatures that have the ability to turn into a common house cat."
Not cats that can turn into humanoids.

[Yael]

Nope. Just because many of them spend most of their time in cat-form doesn't mean that's their native form. They revert to humanoid shape when they die, for one thing. Also, the first sentence of their description:
"Tibbits (also known as catweres) are small, humanoid creatures that have the ability to turn into a common house cat."
Not cats that can turn into humanoids.

I will assume that Ruethgar was refering to the lore of the Tibbit, it would make sense, but the description says that they are small humanoids that can turn into house cats. Your answer is: Surrogate Spellcasting.

[tzar1990]

So, while this is up, I was wondering: What do you think should be changed to bring the update the Tibbit to pathfinder?

So far, I have the following suggestions:

Either give them a second +2 to Charisma to bring them up to line with the other races, or give them the human-style "+2 to any one ability". I'm in favor of the second option, mostly because I'm annoyed at just how many races have +dex +cha instead of something else..
Explicitly note that in cat-form, they have pounce, 2 primary claw attacks and a secondary bite attack, rather than just describing the effects of natural weapons and pounce without naming them
Reduce the strength penalty while in cat form to -6
Acrobatics and Perception replace Jump and Spot as their racial skill bonuses


Anyone else have opinions?

[Yael]

Either give them a second +2 to Charisma to bring them up to line with the other races, or give them the human-style "+2 to any one ability". I'm in favor of the second option, mostly because I'm annoyed at just how many races have +dex +cha instead of something else.

I would agree, but instead of simply using Cha, I would add those points to Int (due to their heritage as familiars); or keep it on Cha, I think that cats are pretty cute and charismatic :smallsmile: (have 3.)



Explicitly note that in cat-form, they have pounce, 2 primary claw attacks and a secondary bite attack, rather than just describing the effects of natural weapons and pounce without naming them.

Helps with rulings, agreed.



Reduce the strength penalty while in cat form to -6


I would stick with the -8, house cats are known for being nimble and quick with their claws. Stacking the -2 with the -8 surely hurts, but sneak attacking from cat form is easy, also killing (Death Attack) too (not to mention manifesting.)



Acrobatics and Perception replace Jump and Spot as their racial skill bonuses.


That replacement seems nice, but like, increasing the bonuses to Jump while in cat form. Cats jump so damn high.... I don't know, a +4 or +6 would be nice enough? (Or is it too much?)
Assume this is while in cat form.


Anyone else have opinions?

Give Alertness as a racial feat? If this is too much troublesome because of acrobatics, maybe keep it at +2 or increase it to +4?

[Yanisa]

Explicitly note that in cat-form, they have pounce, 2 primary claw attacks and a secondary bite attack, rather than just describing the effects of natural weapons and pounce without naming them , Reduce the strength penalty while in cat form to -6
Why not use the Pathfinder Polymorph rules and just function it like Beast Shape II? At will, tiny cat only.



Either give them a second +2 to Charisma to bring them up to line with the other races, or give them the human-style "+2 to any one ability". I'm in favor of the second option, mostly because I'm annoyed at just how many races have +dex +cha instead of something else..
Well, a normal cat has a high dex and wis, could also work