Most overpowered third party books

[spikeof2010]

I'm curious and want to see all the overpowered books you came across.

I'm still iffy on how Chaos Magic is OP.

[JusticeZero]

Dragon Magazine has some pretty ridiculous stuff. It's hard to top the Core Rulebook for broken and overpowered cheese.

[Elderand]

I'm curious and want to see all the overpowered books you came across.

I'm still iffy on how Chaos Magic is OP.

I think a lot of the concerns on chaos magic being super broken come from misunderstanding the rules and ignoring the errata.

Book that I'd consider on the very strong side..... true sorcery, spellcasting based on skill in 3.5 that's so easy to abuse it's not even funny.
Do not let a spellcaster from that book get his hand on an item familliar or custom item to raise their skill and do not let them get their hands on immunity to nonlethal. And for the love of all that is holy do not let them get both of those things at the same time.

[spikeof2010]

I think a lot of the concerns on chaos magic being super broken come from misunderstanding the rules and ignoring the errata.

Book that I'd consider on the very strong side..... true sorcery, spellcasting based on skill in 3.5 that's so easy to abuse it's not even funny.
Do not let a spellcaster from that book get his hand on an item familliar or custom item to raise their skill and do not let them get their hands on immunity to nonlethal. And for the love of all that is holy do not let them get both of those things at the same time.

Oh, man, really?

[Brookshw]

Devices, legacy of blood I believe.

[spikeof2010]

I think a lot of the concerns on chaos magic being super broken come from misunderstanding the rules and ignoring the errata.

Book that I'd consider on the very strong side..... true sorcery, spellcasting based on skill in 3.5 that's so easy to abuse it's not even funny.
Do not let a spellcaster from that book get his hand on an item familliar or custom item to raise their skill and do not let them get their hands on immunity to nonlethal. And for the love of all that is holy do not let them get both of those things at the same time.

I'm reading it as we speak.
It's... very confusing!

[John Longarrow]

I think a lot of the concerns on chaos magic being super broken come from misunderstanding the rules and ignoring the errata.

Book that I'd consider on the very strong side..... true sorcery, spellcasting based on skill in 3.5 that's so easy to abuse it's not even funny.
Do not let a spellcaster from that book get his hand on an item familliar or custom item to raise their skill and do not let them get their hands on immunity to nonlethal. And for the love of all that is holy do not let them get both of those things at the same time.

Elderand,
Is that the book where you make a skill check to cast spells? And you take a small amount of nonlethal based on the DC of the effect?
I've heard about that. Makes people who ignore PP caps playing Psions cry foul. IIRC its the book that makes you WANT to buy a +20 skill enhancer for 40K because of how cheaply it boost your power.

[Gemini476]

Which book was it that had the Metaphysical Spellshaper? Nymphology? It has some pretty unbalanced stuff, anyway. Bastards and Bloodlines also includes some material that wasn't very well thought-out.

Paizo are also pretty bad at balancing stuff, but yeah. That includes both Dragon Magazine and Pathfinder.

[Doc_Maynot]

Which book was it that had the Metaphysical Spellshaper?

Book of Erotic Fantasy

[spikeof2010]

Book of Erotic Fantasy

I heard Bastards & Bloodlines and BoEF are a bit OP.

[Doc_Maynot]

Well, I already talked about those two in the last thread.
Encyclopaedia Arcane: Chronomancy can lead to interesting infinite loops and some really good BFC.
I typically use the book's 24 hours spell (via spell trap or clock) in conjunction with nested animated bags of holding while finding a way to breathe to allow for near infinite extra crafting time in the moment of a few minutes.

[Brookshw]

I heard Bastards & Bloodlines and BoEF are a bit OP.

Obscenely Premised? :smalltongue:

[spikeof2010]

Chronomancy of any sort sounds relatively overpowered.

[kalasulmar]

Not third party but the Splatbook of Battle. It should have been packaged with a grater to handle all of the cheese.

[Gemini476]

Not third party but the Splatbook of Battle. It should have been packaged with a grater to handle all of the cheese.

What, Heroes of Battle? I don't know of anything overpowered from that book. I guess the magic standard with continuous Protection from Evil is kind of cheesy, but that's pretty much it.

I guess you might mean the Tome of Battle, but that book is hardly overpowered except for two maneuvers that can be abused (Iron Heart Surge for the vagueity of "effect" and White Raven Tactics because you are your own ally).

[Pluto!]

It begins.

There's that Aztecs book from Avalanche press featuring their standard mix of Samurai- and Expert - caliber melee and skill monkey classes, rounded out by a spell caster who casts spontaneously from every spell list, who is not limited by spells known, and who is rounded out by a class feature to arbitrarily decide the outcome of any die roll.

[spikeof2010]

It begins.

There's that Aztecs book from Avalanche press featuring their standard mix of Samurai- and Expert - caliber melee and skill monkey classes, rounded out by a spell caster who casts spontaneously from every spell list, who is not limited by spells known, and who is rounded out by a class feature to arbitrarily decide the outcome of any die roll.

Excuse me, what?

[Tvtyrant]

Star Wars Saga is extremely overpowered as a third party book. :P

Also the Epic Level Handbook is the most broken thing of all time. You might as well not have game rules as have those >_>

[Gemini476]

Star Wars Saga is extremely overpowered as a third party book. :P

Also the Epic Level Handbook is the most broken thing of all time. You might as well not have game rules as have those >_>
Both of those at first party, actually. Saga is a separate system, however.

Speaking of Epic, how bad is the Immortals Handbook actually? I know of the crazy CR inflation and the Neutronium Golem, but that's pretty much it.

[Tvtyrant]

Both of those at first party, actually. Saga is a separate system, however.


I refuse to write my posts in blue.

Epic Level handbook is terrible though. All giant numbers and boring abilities. I belief the Glyph has a quote about it.

[ShadowFireLance]

The quote involves monkeys and a typewriter.

The Most OP third party, are the Demideity template from that one Immortals handbook, and then you have the Aztec one. Those are the most broken.

[Seerow]

It begins.

There's that Aztecs book from Avalanche press featuring their standard mix of Samurai- and Expert - caliber melee and skill monkey classes, rounded out by a spell caster who casts spontaneously from every spell list, who is not limited by spells known, and who is rounded out by a class feature to arbitrarily decide the outcome of any die roll.

Oh man. This sounds glorious

[ngilop]

It begins.

There's that Aztecs book from Avalanche press featuring their standard mix of Samurai- and Expert - caliber melee and skill monkey classes, rounded out by a spell caster who casts spontaneously from every spell list, who is not limited by spells known, and who is rounded out by a class feature to arbitrarily decide the outcome of any die roll.

I think you got 2 confused there aztens have no samurai or expert.. the have the shaman (cleric with 7th level spells and a truncated list) and the nagual which is the class that has every spell ever and literally a capstone that is "i win OR you lose"

the nagual casts spells like a sorceror, get d8 for hit points, 4 skill points per level and a base attack advancement equal to a rogue

[Necroticplague]

I think you got 2 confused there aztens have no samurai or expert.. the have the shaman (cleric with 7th level spells and a truncated list) and the nagual which is the class that has every spell ever and literally a capstone that is "i win OR you lose"

the nagual casts spells like a sorceror, get d8 for hit points, 4 skill points per level and a base attack advancement equal to a rogue

He's not saying thy had samurai or expert, he was saying they had some stuff in their that was about as powerful as those two.

[spikeof2010]

The quote involves monkeys and a typewriter.

The Most OP third party, are the Demideity template from that one Immortals handbook, and then you have the Aztec one. Those are the most broken.

I think it's implied that most god templates are going to be, y'know, overpowered.

[Anlashok]

I think it's implied that most god templates are going to be, y'know, overpowered.

Yeah, but it's a book that puts itself on a level where deities described as omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient are only two thirds up the power scale. It's not just overpowered, it's an active attempt to make overpowered look weak, and then make that overpowered look weak again. It's very silly.

It's also not very ambitious, which seems odd given my previous comment... but it puts it in a situation where despite it reaching into insanity in terms of power... a lot of that is just expressed in having tens of thousands of hit die and BAB in the millions rather than in anything more abstract and fitting for that level of absurdity.

[spikeof2010]

Personally, I like it when anything adds a higher level of divine status.

[Pluto!]

I think you got 2 confused there aztens have no samurai or expert...

Maybe. It's been 2-3 years since I read it, but Avalanche loves putting two classes in all their books - one that's like a rogue without the class features and with fewer skill points, but 10ish skill points as a class feature late in the progression, and one that's a fighter with a few preselected bad feats. It's very possible those aren't in the Aztec book, but after reading a pile of their books and seeing those just before the Nagual, my brain broke a little bit right then and there.

Edit: looking back on the 3rd party tier thread, I see the words "freakishly broken" come up often with Dawnstar campaign setting, but either I don't remember the details or that was one of Vilpich's submissions. Could be worth checking out either way.

[Raishoiken]

I'm pretty sure that it's the.book of templates deluxe 3.5 edition that has variant augmentation. one part of it when generously read:add any ex, sp, or su to a creature. One part of it specifically allows adding only specific pieces from templates

[spikeof2010]

I have BoT Deluxe, I'm planning to read it soon. Is it like Advanced Bestiary?

[kellbyb]

Not third party but the Splatbook of Battle. It should have been packaged with a grater to handle all of the cheese.

The only reason Tome of Battle seems OP is because the baseline "fighter" class (fighter) should be an npc class.

[Melcar]

The Quintessential Book are filled with cool albeit Overpowered/broken stuff. Some more than other ofc.

Also Legends and Lairs has some pretty silly legendary classes in the Path of Faith, Path of Magic, Path of Shadow and Path of the Sword books. Personally I like them, but they are crazy.

And if you thought Evocation was a poor school, look in the Legends and Lairs' "School of Evocation" Than single book turn evocation into perhaps the most potent battle spell school....

[thorr-kan]

I'm reading it as we speak.
It's... very confusing!

True Sorcery is based on the Black Company campaign setting. It does take some getting used to, but with practice it should be a lot of fun.

[thorr-kan]

I think a lot of the concerns on chaos magic being super broken come from misunderstanding the rules and ignoring the errata.

Book that I'd consider on the very strong side..... true sorcery, spellcasting based on skill in 3.5 that's so easy to abuse it's not even funny.
Do not let a spellcaster from that book get his hand on an item familliar or custom item to raise their skill and do not let them get their hands on immunity to nonlethal. And for the love of all that is holy do not let them get both of those things at the same time.

Note that the skill checks are offset by the casting times and limited number of spells as feats. Also, the magic item creation rules are meant to be replaced by the rules in True Sorcery. Magic Items are *a lot* rarer.

But hey! the Item Familiar is The One Right! Classic fantasy trope!

[spikeof2010]

How does School of Evocation make it worthwhile?

[Melcar]

How does School of Evocation make it worthwhile?

In that book, there are some crazy spells. Like Greater Shatter. 2d6/level - no max. So a level 33 would have 66d6.

Ball Lightning. 1d6/level - no max- per round. For a total (in our level 33 example of. 33d6 in 33 rounds =1089d6

Arcing Death. 1d8 per level on a failed save uncontious on a save stunned. =Press enter to win spell. It does only work on living.

I can give full spell write of if needed!

[spikeof2010]

OH dear. A spell write?

[Vedhin]

In that book, there are some crazy spells. Like Greater Shatter. 2d6/level - no max. So a level 33 would have 66d6.

Ball Lightning. 1d6/level - no max- per round. For a total (in our level 33 example of. 33d6 in 33 rounds =1089d6

Well, I can find spells like that in 3.X. You need Reserves of Strength to uncap them, but both 2d6/level damage and quadratically scaling damage can be found.


Arcing Death. 1d8 per level on a failed save uncontious on a save stunned. =Press enter to win spell. It does only work on living.

It's telling that I can't figure out which result ruins the target's day more. This one doesn't care about damage, it cares about being save or lose more (or possibly less).


So, it looks like they have a good idea for raw damage spells, not so much for other effects.

[spikeof2010]

I'm reading it right now, not that OP as I had hoped.

[RedMage125]

Just about the entire Quintessential line from Mongoose Publishing is broken. Not that it's all OP, mind you, some of it is just broken like the Truenamer is broken. And then there's some OP stuff slipped in there, just enough to make you want to throw the book down in disgust.

The shame of it is, amid the brokenly-overpowered and laughably-underpowered stuff, are occasional gems of really good ideas. The feat Short Haft (allows someone with a reach weapon to adjust their grip and fight close), from the PHB2 was in Quintessential Monk back in 3.0 days, under a different name, but the effect was the same. That book also had some really cool rules for Monks to break objects. It involved the use of the Concentration skill (ever wonder why Monks have that as a class skill?), and allowed a Concentration check, the result of the check being compared to a table and lowering the effective hardness of the object for your next strike.

The Quintessential Elf, on the other hand, was an attempt to re-create the 2e Complete Book of Elves. There's seriously a PrC that has an age-based prerequisite, and you basically become immortal.

Green Ronin Press had some broken ones, although of all the prolific 3rd party publishers, they were the least broken. Either them or AEG.

[RSSwizard]

I think there must be a reason that most of the DMs ive played with ban these books at the outset of the game. . . Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Libris Mortis.

Not sure if those count as 3rd party but id say they top the list, especially since they work together so well.



Ball Lightning. 1d6/level - no max- per round. For a total (in our level 33 example of. 33d6 in 33 rounds =1089d6

Actually I thought it did have a max (15d6), its just it lasts however many rounds as your caster level. And thats pretty nasty - if the dude cant make his reflex saves and he stands still. Otherwise its about as useless as that 2nd level Ball Of Fire spell that the opponent can just step out of the way of, just amped up for use against higher level targets.

I was playing a sorcerer recently, got to 20th level, and for the spell I changed out I dropped Ball Lightning. Ive never even got to use it once.

Every time I wanted to, I was either with my back against the wall desperately doing Greater Dispel, or the bad guys were Rogues Inc.

But otherwise it basically means no door or barrier can stand in your way (if you consider PF's nerfing of wall of force). If left to do its thing it does more damage than a disintegration or at least can carve a 5ft path much deeper through solid material than it can. And its level 5 so its in Maximize territory (90 points straight up each round).

[RSSwizard]

Another for the nomination, if it isnt already - Spell Compendium.

A giant list of spells from any number of potentially broken 3rd party books.

There is one spell in particular that is pretty nastily broken.

Ray Reflection (4th level)

No ray can hit you, no matter how powerful, no matter what it does or even if it doesn't have a save or No SR. And how many spells in the game are rays? There are even classes that devote themselves to rays.

A very poorly written and considered spell. Immunity to Rays is worse than Immunity to Energy (and thats 7th level).

My DM spams this spell.
It destroyed my sorcerer (2/3rds of his spells were rays).

I was literally having to say "I cast a ray, does it bounce off?" every time I cast a spell, didn't even bother making the attack rolls or other stuff.

[RedMage125]

RSSWizard...I think you have a misunderstanding of what "3rd party" means.

3rd Party Publisher means it was not published by Wizards of the Coast. Common 3rd party publishers are Sword&Sorcery Studios (owned by White Wolf), Alderaac Entertainment Group (AEG), Green Ronin, Mongoose Publishing, things like that. The "Slayers Guide to Bugbears", for example, was a 3rd party book. "Kingdoms of Kalamar" was a whole 3rd party setting.

Libris Mortis, Book of Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness and the Spell Compendium, are all WotC-published, and are thus not 3rd party.

While I quite agree that a lot of the Spell Compendium was overpowered, that is mainly because it brought "Forgotten Realms only" spells into "core". FR is meant to be a bit higher-powered (Regional feats come to mind), especially for the spellcasters. Having them in FR isn't that bad. Allowing them into other settings is potentially unbalancing. Some of the SC isn't too bad, a lot of re-print and errata for the spells in the Complete series of books. I allow SC on a case-by-case basis when I DM.

[Kantolin]

While I quite agree that a lot of the Spell Compendium was overpowered

I... I dunno.

I mean yes, there are overpowered spells within, but insofar as I'm aware of the overpowered spells in the spell compendium can be counted on one hand, two tops. That's actually really really good for a book with as many spells in it as it has.

In addition, it helps out the classes who really need it (Bards, Rangers, Paladins, Assassins) a lot, while helping the classes who don't need it (Wizard, Cleric, Druid) comparably a lot less. I mean yes it does help the latter group, but it 'kinda' helps the latter group and mostly gives an array of alternate but not better spells. Definitely helps the Paladin feel excited for his spellcasting, and not having the ranger go 'Man I don't even get /cure light wounds/ until level 8...

I mean, compare Invisibility, Haste, Solid Fog, Freedom of Movement, Polymorph, Planar Ally, and Gate.

Also, ball lightning is reflex: Negates, not Reflex: Half. Look at it as 'everyone gets evasion against this!'. Everyone with a good reflex save nulls it, people who tend to have a good dexterity null it, lucky rolls by the enemy fighter type can null it.

If the concern is it being uncapped (which it isn't, but some spells are), then first of all without optimization, that's unlikely to matter for a long time. If you /are/ level 33, then a groundbound ball doing 33d6 damage is not terribly relevant to you in the face of, I dunno, a Behemoth Gorilla (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/behemoth.htm#behemothGorilla) or something. (He's CR 19, mind you, so he should be an absolute cakewalk to a level 33 character... and even he doesn't care about a random 33d6).

If you /are/ optimizing, then the mailman can put out plenty of damage without requiring uncapped spells, so meh. In addition, with that kind of optimization 'how much damage you can put out' stops being as focal. Plus you can probably do decent stuff with fell drain flaming spheres or whatever and have more metamagic levels to work with / have it come online at a lower level.

And while I agree that ray deflection is strong, so is freedom of movement and true seeing. Ray Deflection is generally less of a 'no' sort of response - your sorceror who presumably shot unoptimized rays didn't have... um, fireball? Or slay living or baleful polymorph or haste or gate or solid fog or something? How does one have 2/3rds of their spells be rays on accident? Or was this 'I want rays so I can autohit things', which is the kind of logic ray deflection is trying to stop.

[duburu]

Dragon Magazine has some pretty ridiculous stuff. It's hard to top the Core Rulebook for broken and overpowered cheese.

what the core book call?

[Zanos]

what the core book call?
The core sourcebooks are the Player's Handbook, The Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual I.

Basically the core books contain Wizard, Cleric and Druid, largely considered the most broken classes in the game, along with their best spells. There are very good spells in other splatbooks, but none that bust the game open like Planar Binding, Polymorph, Telport, Timestop, and the other spells in those lines.

[cosmonuts]

Ice Assassin (Frost) gets an honorable mention for being better than most of the already broken core spells, though.

[JusticeZero]

Right... the original iconic classes were not merely developed when the dynamics of the game weren't well understood yet, but also grandfathered in wholesale from previous editions where *no* dynamics were well understood for *anything*, almost verbatim. A lot of the PHB spells are ridiculously powerful on their own and have even more disgusting synergies with the other parts of the class. Clerics and Druids could be sliced into multiple classes as designed and each of those classes would be balanced. A lot of the spells threw around huge numbers carelessly. The designers seemed to be under the opinion that a median +5 to hit and ten HP was equivalent to the loss of the ability to materialize entire armies at will or rout massive threats effortlessly, which in turn were considered less important than the ability to toss out a small amount of easily resisted direct damage to an area.

It's very hard to find any classes more off the rails than a straight Druid or Cleric out of the Players Handbook, and the spells casually tossed onto the Wizard list are ridiculous. All three can, having shown up the rest of the party at their own specialties, completely re-invent themselves to do a completely different set of ludicrously broken things tomorrow. And they all have tools to figure out what to prepare for. After awhile, some even have ways to phone their ridiculousness in from afar.

[ThePurpleMage]

To be honest, I've been accused of Min-Maxing so many times. At one point I was told by a GM that whilst everyone else was allowed to use any source book they wished I was only allowed to use the Players Hand Book, and ONLY the PHB. This went on for several campaigns, I was generally still one of the most powerful characters. It's not always what you have access to its how you use it as well. That being said...

This -->Tome of Awesome (https://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/detail?name=Tome0.7rev139.pdf&can=2&q=)<--

[spikeof2010]

Christ, all this talk about PHB, some of the stuff I never even heard of.

[JusticeZero]

I'm not sure what you're saying there. Can you elaborate?

[Angelalex242]

BoED and BoVD aren't usually banned for their power...they're not THAT damn powerful. They're banned for having amazingly strict RP requirements the average GM doesn't want to deal with.

BoED, especially, is the Paladin Code taken up to Saint levels.

And BoVD is 'how can we gross out the weak stomached people at the gaming table? How can we make Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot look like friendly people compared to your character?'

[Pluto!]

Regarding the PHB talk in the subject of broken 3rd party books, it is kind of on topic - When we were doing the "Tier all the 3rd Party classes" thing, most of the ones that flagged near the top of the brokenness scale did so mainly because of traits they share with core casting classes.

For instance, I remember a lot of AEG's Magic book being pretty high powered, but usually because a class was a slightly tweaked Wizard with a poorly-conceived/analyzed detail or two (I think it was that book that made a couple otherwise unremarkable prepared casting classes' spells count as Su abilities in accordance with flavor).

[137beth]

Paizo stuff in general is pretty much all over the place, from worse than the weakest WotC stuff to stronger than anything but Manipulate Form. Paragon Surge is a pretty good example of Paizo's broken stuff.


The PHB from Steve Jackson Games' Munchkin RPG springs to mind also. Most of the strongest stuff in it, however, basically take something from core 3.5 and give you a little more of it. Ultimately the broken stuff in Munchkin RPG are really a testament to how broken core 3.5 is.

The strongest thing in Munchkin RPG that isn't just more core is arguably the one cleric domain (the munchkin domain, which can be renamed the "balanced domain" or "roleplaying domain" to slip it past the DM:smalltongue:)
The granted power gives "+1 to everything, any time it helps." If that stacks with itself, then it gives a +1 to the bonus granted by the munchkin domain, so it gives a +2 to everything...and eventually you have +Infinity to everything!
Even under a more reasonable interpretation the domain is fairly strong (+1 to all ability scores, skills, caster level, initiative, and saves is good for a granted power). The spells Are a mixed bag:
1: Fireball
2:Lightning Bolt
3:Flame Strike
4:Power word kill
5: Finger of death
All of those are weak spells, but gained at a lower level than normal for balance. 2d6+1 damage from a fireball at 1st level is decent, and at higher levels 1st level fireball is good for metamagic.
The higher level spells pick up in power...
6: Limited Wish
7:Wish
8:Miracle
9: Magic Missile (doesn't matter, since you can just prep Wish or Miracle in this slot).

There are a few other things in that book which are stronger than stuff in the 3.5 PHB. For example, Maize is a 7th level spell which creates a corn maze, and is functionally identical to the 8th level core spell Maze, except it is a level lower, lasts 10 minutes regardless of the target's intelligence, does not allow spell resistance, and farmers are immune (minotaurs are not immune). So basically Greater Maze, but lower leveled.

There are a pair of feats which make everyone into wizards: "Marker Magic" allows you to prepare and cast as a wizard if you draw on your skin with a marker, regardless of your class. "Marker Mayhem" doubles the spells/day from Marker Magic.
Still, the fact that most of a book called "Munchkin RPG PHB" is barely stronger than the core rules shows just how outlandish the core rules are.

[RedMage125]

I... I dunno.

I mean yes, there are overpowered spells within, but insofar as I'm aware of the overpowered spells in the spell compendium can be counted on one hand, two tops. That's actually really really good for a book with as many spells in it as it has.

Like I said, the Spell Compendium ALSO has updated spells from just about all of the Complete series, as well as a few others, like Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness (which I still think they should have kept the original name for that book "Codex Anathema").

I don't use a blanket ban on the SC. In fact, if a player wants to use a spell from a Complete Book, I generally consult the SC to see if it was errata'd at all, and use the more updated version. I DO, however, generally ban any spell that used to be Forgotten Realms-specific. And I used to really be into FR, so I can usually pick them out with ease. They're easy to find as they're all in the front of the book, under the 'Renamed Spells' heading (along with a HANDFUL on non-FR spells that changed names). Generally any spell on THAT list needs to be examined and approved by me (the DM) before I allow it. If a player can find it in another source that I've already given the green light to (like a Complete Book), I generally don't bat an eye.


BoED and BoVD aren't usually banned for their power...they're not THAT damn powerful. They're banned for having amazingly strict RP requirements the average GM doesn't want to deal with.

BoED, especially, is the Paladin Code taken up to Saint levels.

And BoVD is 'how can we gross out the weak stomached people at the gaming table? How can we make Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot look like friendly people compared to your character?'
While I agree about the content, which was frequently broken, both in terms of being overpowered (Soul Eater), or near useless. I'm more familiar with the BoVD, since I actually own that one in hard copy. There were a handful of gems in there, but they were few and far between. Most of the stuff was seriously an attempt to make some gross stuff.

I will say this for both books: The introductory chapters are amazing. The BoVD has a long section on "The Nature of Evil" which has some good treatises on how Evil works in D&D, how action and intent play into it, and what deeds are simply straight-out Evil, along with why. The BoED had some similar material on the nature of Good, but most of that applied to "Exalted" levels of Good. but still a worthwhile read, nonetheless. Especially is you use alignment in your game.

The BoVD had a few things in it that I want to make mention as being especially worthwhile to me (which is why I bought it). It finally gave mechanical voice to some classic elements of fantasy Evil. For example: the benefits an evil priest/demon worshiper gets from sacrificing a victim on an altar. What, exactly, one can do with a soul that one has stolen or bargained for (like using it as substitute XP for item creation). Things like that. I was very pleased to have an answer for those kinds of questions that I had.

But yes, most of it was crap. I have seen some redemptions of the Prestige Classes into viable 3.5 models. About a year ago I ran an evil game and one party member wanted to be a Vermin Lord. I printed up someone's homebrew "fix" of the Vermin Lord, which was much better, and still balanced.

[Melcar]

Well, I can find spells like that in 3.X. You need Reserves of Strength to uncap them, but both 2d6/level damage and quadratically scaling damage can be found.



It's telling that I can't figure out which result ruins the target's day more. This one doesn't care about damage, it cares about being save or lose more (or possibly less).


So, it looks like they have a good idea for raw damage spells, not so much for other effects.

Well it was evocations spells it contained. They are just really powerful compared to PHB evocation spells.

Personally I enjoy all the questessential books and have used them extensively in the past. They have some great ideas. So when ever I DM they are in use. So far I have not found anything in those books that breaks a game the way official D&D does. (pun pun):smallsmile:

[atemu1234]

In that book, there are some crazy spells. Like Greater Shatter. 2d6/level - no max. So a level 33 would have 66d6.

Ball Lightning. 1d6/level - no max- per round. For a total (in our level 33 example of. 33d6 in 33 rounds =1089d6

Arcing Death. 1d8 per level on a failed save uncontious on a save stunned. =Press enter to win spell. It does only work on living.

I can give full spell write of if needed!

I feel like at that point as DM I'd errata them to work with the limits imposed in the Dungeon Master's Guide to damage caps.

[Angelalex242]

Actually, I love the BoED for its long treatise on 'how to be very good without being Miko or being preachy.' It also spends a lot of time answering questions about what the Paladin (or good cleric, or any exalted character) should do when a jackass DM puts him in a 'kobyashi maru' situation.

[atemu1234]

Actually, I love the BoED for its long treatise on 'how to be very good without being Miko or being preachy.' It also spends a lot of time answering questions about what the Paladin (or good cleric, or any exalted character) should do when a jackass DM puts him in a 'kobyashi maru' situation.

And never forget it tells the DM how to respond. That's what makes it useful. I find that PCs roleplaying remorse over their deeds is far more interesting than telling them what they did wrong in either case, however. Never really had a paladin for long, though.

[Melcar]

I feel like at that point as DM I'd errata them to work with the limits imposed in the Dungeon Master's Guide to damage caps.

Personally I would think that to be a shame. I think of them as gems lost in time by some extra ordinarilly powerful spellcaster. I think they can be used both as rewards punishment, to give an npc an edge and so forth... I personally like that there are spells out there that just have found a waya arround te normal rules... I like them both as a player and as a DM. But whatever fits his or her game. :smallsmile:

[spikeof2010]

Well, personally, I don't find a problem with leaving them as is, a few unbalancing points are always welcome.

[Melcar]

I couldn't help my self. Here are another from that book. One of the more... unpleasant!

Noxious Vapors
Evocation (Acid)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Medium (100 ft. +10 ft./level)
Area: Two 10 ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
Any creature within the area of effect is instantly exposed to a cloud of noxious vapors that burns the creature’s lungs, blood vessels, and eyes. All creatures within the area suffer 20d4 points of acid damage as well as 2d4 points of temporary Constitution damage. Finally, affected creatures are blinded for 2d4 minutes. Affected creatures may make a Fortitude save for half damage, to reduce the Constitution damage to 1d4, and to have the duration of their blindness reduced by half.
Material Components: An oak leaf and a hair of a skunk.

Taken from "School of Evocation", page 44.

[QuidEst]

For Pathfinder, there's Super Genius Games's Eldritch Godling.
Fun stuff:
• Dex-based spontaneous caster off of any one spell list. They auto-succeed all concentration checks to cast, can cast in full-plate without a problem, and get a good chance of ignoring antimagic.
• Pick up a Cleric domain and get all the spells as SLAs. They can keep doing this as many times as they're willing to spend feats.
• Cast as many as three spells in a round.
• Lots of options to cherry-pick class features from other casting classes.
• Add Con modifier to AC.

[Elderand]

I couldn't help my self. Here are another from that book. One of the more... unpleasant!

Noxious Vapors
Evocation (Acid)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Medium (100 ft. +10 ft./level)
Area: Two 10 ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
Any creature within the area of effect is instantly exposed to a cloud of noxious vapors that burns the creature’s lungs, blood vessels, and eyes. All creatures within the area suffer 20d4 points of acid damage as well as 2d4 points of temporary Constitution damage. Finally, affected creatures are blinded for 2d4 minutes. Affected creatures may make a Fortitude save for half damage, to reduce the Constitution damage to 1d4, and to have the duration of their blindness reduced by half.
Material Components: An oak leaf and a hair of a skunk.

Taken from "School of Evocation", page 44.

The most broken thing in that book is not the spells. It's actually the dedicated evoker. So it can only cast (natively) from evocation and universal. But it gains 6, count them 6 levels of free metamagic to any spells it knows.

[Vedhin]

The most broken thing in that book is not the spells. It's actually the dedicated evoker. So it can only cast (natively) from evocation and universal. But it gains 6, count them 6 levels of free metamagic to any spells it knows.

That is definitely broken. There are some Evocation buffs out there, and that's free Persist. Or other stuff, but I don't think it's that broken for blasting if it's a progression or granted at high levels. After all, monster hp scales faster as level increases.

[enderlord99]

Are sarukhs first- or third-party?

[Larkas]

For Vecna's sake, uncapping the damage of a Fireball wouldn't make it more worthwhile to cast. The problem people see with blasting is that you're spending your actions to do basically what a fighter could do. 20d6 @20 is nothing compared to the 300+ an ubercharger could easily be pulling off at the same level.


I couldn't help my self. Here are another from that book. One of the more... unpleasant!

Noxious Vapors
Evocation (Acid)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Medium (100 ft. +10 ft./level)
Area: Two 10 ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
Any creature within the area of effect is instantly exposed to a cloud of noxious vapors that burns the creature’s lungs, blood vessels, and eyes. All creatures within the area suffer 20d4 points of acid damage as well as 2d4 points of temporary Constitution damage. Finally, affected creatures are blinded for 2d4 minutes. Affected creatures may make a Fortitude save for half damage, to reduce the Constitution damage to 1d4, and to have the duration of their blindness reduced by half.
Material Components: An oak leaf and a hair of a skunk.

Taken from "School of Evocation", page 44.

This... Spends a 9th level spell slot? No, thanks. I'd rather take something more useful. Like, say, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop or Wish. Or heck, even Weird and Wail of the Banshee. The above spell only hits for an average of 50 (25 half) points of acid damage, 5 (2.5) points of Constitution damage and 5 (2.5) minutes of blindness. Against a Tarrasque (again, this is a 9th level spell), the only part that will matter is the blindness (and it targets Fort, so it will be saving for half), and you could do that better by using a 2nd level spell. Against a Great Wyrm Dragon, the blindness will do nothing to stop it, the damage is negligible (and possibly ignored) and the Constitution drop hardly noticeable (again, it will make its saves. Will you really be spamming a 9th level spell to do 1d4 Constitution damage?). That is, if the spellcaster bypasses the Great Wyrm's SR. Seriously, using poison is more viable than this.


Are sarukhs first- or third-party?

First. Forgotten Realms, IIRC.

[Sir Chuckles]

I heard Bastards & Bloodlines and BoEF are a bit OP.

Bastards & Bloodlines I don't see as OP, purely because of those massive LAs.
Also, nobody anywhere asked for the Blinkling to exist. Nor the Alicorn. And those two are kinda tame compared to some of the others...

[Melcar]

For Vecna's sake, uncapping the damage of a Fireball wouldn't make it more worthwhile to cast. The problem people see with blasting is that you're spending your actions to do basically what a fighter could do. 20d6 @20 is nothing compared to the 300+ an ubercharger could easily be pulling off at the same level.



This... Spends a 9th level spell slot? No, thanks. I'd rather take something more useful. Like, say, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop or Wish. Or heck, even Weird and Wail of the Banshee. The above spell only hits for an average of 50 (25 half) points of acid damage, 5 (2.5) points of Constitution damage and 5 (2.5) minutes of blindness. Against a Tarrasque (again, this is a 9th level spell), the only part that will matter is the blindness (and it targets Fort, so it will be saving for half), and you could do that better by using a 2nd level spell. Against a Great Wyrm Dragon, the blindness will do nothing to stop it, the damage is negligible (and possibly ignored) and the Constitution drop hardly noticeable (again, it will make its saves. Will you really be spamming a 9th level spell to do 1d4 Constitution damage?). That is, if the spellcaster bypasses the Great Wyrm's SR. Seriously, using poison is more viable than this.


I respectfully disagree. You dont always have a fighter in the party. And having a spell that affects someone as much as this on does, even when you save, I personally think is very powerful. Agreed its not the most overpowered book out there, but it has some very nice additions to the school of evocation.

I personally think that the Quintessential series it probably the most overpovered. PrC like the Primordial Sorcerer, with the feat Absorb Spell makes you pretty much immuni to magic.

[RedMage125]

First. Forgotten Realms, IIRC.

You do indeed remember correctly. The book is Serpent Kingdoms.

[Deathra13]

I would honestly have to say the most OP is either "Feats" or "Evil" though honestly it seems like the entire one word line from that publisher is nuts. Not sure if its second or third party though. Still it all has some rediculously unbalancing stuff.

[Gemini476]

I would have said something about the Guide to Horrifically Overpowered Feats being overpowered, but large parts of it just aren't (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9314.0). Mostly the mundane parts. The caster feats have a tendency towards being overpowered.
The link is worth reading if you wonder what it's all about; the feats are all OGL, so you can read them there without having to waste your money on the books themselves.
Page 1-3 are the most relevant, I feel.

[Larkas]

I respectfully disagree. You dont always have a fighter in the party. And having a spell that affects someone as much as this on does, even when you save, I personally think is very powerful. Agreed its not the most overpowered book out there, but it has some very nice additions to the school of evocation.

I personally think that the Quintessential series it probably the most overpovered. PrC like the Primordial Sorcerer, with the feat Absorb Spell makes you pretty much immuni to magic.

You are still spending a 9th-level spell slot to do decidedly subpar (for the level) damage. If there's no fighter (or any other mundane) around, and you still think that doing HP damage is the best way to win the fight (vs. just going for one of the several SoL/SoD, or just getting creative with stuff, like with Ice Assassin or Simulacrum, among many others), there are still better ways to go around it. Shapechange comes to mind. Heck, Polymorph might do it.

[Zombulian]

While not necessarily OP, the Iron Kingdoms books could get pretty dang silly. The way guns worked in that game could get weird. For one thing, there was a rule that you could add extra barrels to a gun for a percentage of the base price and a slight addition to weight. Then you could fire all of those barrels in one round with different attack rolls. Hello sneak attack I'm glad you could make it.
Also a Gun Mage's pistol got a bunch of funny familiar abilities like share spell. Polymorph yourself and your gun into a Cryohydra!
Gun Mages had another interesting ability to use their pistol as a focus for spells and then ignore up to 100gp of material components. Launch Bolt (0lvl spell) with a colossal+ bolt ohyeaaaah.jpg

[Vedhin]

You are still spending a 9th-level spell slot to do decidedly subpar (for the level) damage. If there's no fighter (or any other mundane) around, and you still think that doing HP damage is the best way to win the fight (vs. just going for one of the several SoL/SoD, or just getting creative with stuff, like with Ice Assassin or Simulacrum, among many others), there are still better ways to go around it. Shapechange comes to mind. Heck, Polymorph might do it.

There's also the fact that that spell deals underwhelming damage even compared to normal blasting spells.


Gun Mages had another interesting ability to use their pistol as a focus for spells and then ignore up to 100gp of material components. Launch Bolt (0lvl spell) with a colossal+ bolt ohyeaaaah.jpg

I'd so allow this, as long as it involved the bolt coming out of the gun's barrel.

[atemu1234]

Personally I would think that to be a shame. I think of them as gems lost in time by some extra ordinarilly powerful spellcaster. I think they can be used both as rewards punishment, to give an npc an edge and so forth... I personally like that there are spells out there that just have found a waya arround te normal rules... I like them both as a player and as a DM. But whatever fits his or her game. :smallsmile:

The thing is, though, they aren't all that powerful in the grand picture. If you've got a level 33 caster, that's your first problem. OP spells notwithstanding. Odds are the most you'd have to deal with is a 20th level caster in most games.

[Larkas]

I'd so allow this, as long as it involved the bolt coming out of the gun's barrel.

Same here! :smalleek: At the very least, the imagery seems awesome! One more reason to get those IK books :smallbiggrin:

[Glimbur]

Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era has simultaneously the best and worst caster base class. The Levite Priest spontaneously casts almost the entire cleric spell list. Oh and also, if you make a Piety check you can spontaneously cast from any other spell list, except domain spells of domains your god does not have and other forbidden spells (planar travel, Evil spells, raising the dead, anything on the Sabbath except to save a life). Yes, there is a Piety check involved to cast showy stuff, but it is a check that can be built for.

That spell list restriction is a bit of a problem, but nothing you can't fix with UMD. The real problem is you don't regain spell slots normally. You have to either visit the Tabernacle or Temple and sacrifice 5 gp of livestock per spell level, vow to do that sacrifice next time you return to the Tabernacle or Temple, or complete a quest. The bolded section is the powergaming choice.

tl;dr Spont Cast almost every spell.

[malonkey1]

Dragon Magazine has some pretty ridiculous stuff. It's hard to top the Core Rulebook for broken and overpowered cheese.

Is Dragon, technically, 3rd party? I always considered it 2.5th party, being endorsed by Wizards but not actually made by them.

[RedMage125]

Depends on what era. When it was owned by TSR, it was not 3rd party.

During the 3e era, it was owned by Paizo (who now make Pathfinder), and it was 3rd party.

HOWEVER, shortly after the 3.5e change, issue #323, even though Paizo still published it, content was now "100% Official", whatever that means. Perhaps they had somebody at WotC vetting all of it, I don't know.

The Dragon Compendium, however, is 1st party.

[Zombulian]

Depends on what era. When it was owned by TSR, it was not 3rd party.

During the 3e era, it was owned by Paizo (who now make Pathfinder), and it was 3rd party.

HOWEVER, shortly after the 3.5e change, issue #323, even though Paizo still published it, content was now "100% Official", whatever that means. Perhaps they had somebody at WotC vetting all of it, I don't know.

The Dragon Compendium, however, is 1st party.

Which is funny because it has some of the silliest Dragon Mag content in it. Also the title for the Compendium says "Volume One" and then they didn't do any more which made me sad.

[Larkas]

Considering that many things from Dragon later found their way into 1st party books, I consider it 2nd party at most (i.e.: between 1st and 3rd party, there's no such thing as actual 2nd party).

I like most of what was published in Dragon and Dungeon, anyways. Most broken stuff there is "broken bad", anyways, and even then there's so little of it.

[malonkey1]

Considering that many things from Dragon later found their way into 1st party books, I consider it 2nd party at most (i.e.: between 1st and 3rd party, there's no such thing as actual 2nd party).

I like most of what was published in Dragon and Dungeon, anyways. Most broken stuff there is "broken bad", anyways, and even then there's so little of it.

2nd party is the players.

[RSSwizard]

'I want rays so I can autohit things', which is the kind of logic ray deflection is trying to stop.

Actually I did have a number of other spells, which I was having to use, but that made me a little underpowered since I might well as not have had the ray spells. I did get to use them a few times but it was a drastic disappointment

And no they aren't auto-hit, most of them required a ranged touch attack. If you want auto-hit look up Magic Missile, which I did not take.

The good news was that my DM wasnt imposing XP costs for spells so I was able to spam Limited Wish as much as I wanted to. Though you're talking a 7th level spell so not too many of them floating around either.

(though for the full sized Wish we needed a 25000gp diamond)

As an Incantatrix I banned Illusions, so I couldnt cast illusion spells (otherwise id also be spamming Major Image). Found out too late also, I was looking at the old incantatrix when I chose it and my GM forced me to use the new rules (which are significantly nerfed compared to the old).

I pulled off some nice stuff with Arcane Thesis on Scorching Ray, but thats where I was getting slapped in the face the most and it really sucked.

[RedMage125]

As an Incantatrix I banned Illusions, so I couldnt cast illusion spells (otherwise id also be spamming Major Image). Found out too late also, I was looking at the old incantatrix when I chose it and my GM forced me to use the new rules (which are significantly nerfed compared to the old).

Say, WHAT?

The 3.0 Incantatrix was pretty powerful, yes. Bu I'd hardly call the 3.5 one "nerfed". Especially because it's largely considered one of the most powerful PrCs that a wizard can take.

Let's look down the line, shall we?

They both have similar requirements, like a feat tax of Iron Will

3.0 can bypass the forbidden school by being an abjurer already. 3.5 cannot, and must sacrifice another school. (Advantage: 3.0)

3.5 gets 1 more metamagic feat than 3.0 (advantage: 3.5)

3.0 gets a +2 on checks to overcome SR of outsiders, and on dispel/banish attempts on outsiders.
3.5 gets the ability to add metamagic feats to the spells being cast by allies. (Tough call. In a heavy-outsider filled game, 3.0 wins, but on average, even with only 1 other caster in the group-cleric-the 3.5 ability is more versatile. Gonna say 3.5 wins)

3.0 can see ethereal 1/day. 3.5 can add a metamagic effect to ANY existing magical effect he encounters. (Advantage 3.5)

3.0 gets an ability that essentially allows her to add Transdimensional Spell to ANY spell she is casting, on the fly, at will, by simply extending the cast time like a sorc adding a metamagic feat. 3.5 gets to add metamagic feat to spell trigger items with charges if he has the prerequisite Item Creation feat. (Advantage: 3.0)

3.0 gets immunity to energy drain and death effects when 3.5 gets "Sieze Concentration" (advantage 3.0)

Both get 2/day Instant Metamagic and Improved Metamagic (otherwise an epic feat) (Advantage: draw)

3.0 get the ability to drain a charged magic item to heal herself. 3.5 gains the ability to snatch control of any magical effect in place, whether or not it requires concentration, to include summoned creatures. (Advatnage: 3.5, by a long shot)

So in the end, the 3.5 version is actually BETTER. And not only is it better, but it's more coherent. Because look at the 3.0 one. Is it a class about banishing outsiders (as the picture seems to imply)? Or is it a metamgaic master? Why all the half-hearted attempts to be both? And most ethereal creatures D&D players encoutner are undead, not outsiders, so the class abilities aren't even that great against outsiders. Immunity to death effects and level drain and ability to spontaneously put spells in the Ethereal make the 3.0 a great anti-undead caster, but that's not what the class is even supposed to be.

In 3.5, they mention that the in-world organization dislikes extraplanar intrusion, but the class itself is all about metamagic. If you think about it, even making sure they cannot have abjuration as a prohibited school is metamagic related. Because one of abjuration's schitcks is using magic against itself.

/rant

Oh, and my Incantatrix banned Illusion as well. If you're only going to give up one school, Enchantment and Illusion are kind of redundant, ne?

[137beth]

Tomb of battle is crazy. Especially the rouge. That class is ridiculously over powdered!

[JusticeZero]

(Rays) aren't auto-hit, most of them required a ranged touch attack. If you want auto-hit look up Magic Missile, which I did not take.
The thing with ranged touch attacks is that they are very easy to maximize and enemy defenses against them scale very very badly. As such, very quickly they are hitting 95% of the time, usually.

[RedMage125]

Tomb of battle is crazy. Especially the rouge. That class is ridiculously over powdered!

I sea what ewe did there...

[atemu1234]

I finally got around to reading School of Evocation. I have to second the broken-ness of dedicated evoker. At twelfth level, you can basically cast any spell you want as quickened. I ran my usual tests (making an NPC based around it and running it through a sample dungeon) and it cast half its spells as quickened. So each round you'd be dealing with it casting quickened fireball followed up with another fireball.

[137beth]

I would have said something about the Guide to Horrifically Overpowered Feats being overpowered, but large parts of it just aren't (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9314.0). Mostly the mundane parts. The caster feats have a tendency towards being overpowered.
The link is worth reading if you wonder what it's all about; the feats are all OGL, so you can read them there without having to waste your money on the books themselves.
Page 1-3 are the most relevant, I feel.

Some of it certainly is, though (extra spells per round!)