The Order of the Stick and Redcloak's Plan

[Squidswell]

Hello everyone,
This is a question I have been tossing back and forth in my head, and as I couldn't find anyone else talking about it I decided to ask for myself. The question is this: If the Order of the Stick knew what Redcloak's plan with the gates actually was, would they try to stop him? While it would put the gods in threat, he is only doing it to help goblins. While the Order have killed many goblins, they have done so with the idea of stopping Xykon from ruling the world. I think they wouldn't be opposed to helping goblins peacefully improve their lives, but I'm not sure. What do you all think?

[DaggerPen]

Given the high probability that the Plan will end the world as they know it, assuming the Dark One isn't lying about his plan, I imagine they would probably try to stop Redcloak anyway, but that they might try hard to negotiate with Redcloak for an alternate, less destructive solution.

[Squidswell]

But would it end the world as they know it? Obviously we don't know the exact specifics of the Dark One's plan, but he seems more inclined to level the playing field than anything else. I'm not sure what this would entail, but as goblins have their own city now I'm not sure what more would be asked for.

[DaggerPen]

The plan involves shifting the Gates - indeed, now the sole remaining Gate - holding back a godkilling abomination from destroying reality itself. If unleashed, the gods will destroy and remake the world in order to reseal its prison rather than risk death. This plan has a million possible ways to go horribly, horribly wrong even assuming everyone is on the up and up and the god raised from the sheer rage and destructive tendencies of the goblin race will be actively striving for the most peaceful possible interpretation of "blackmail the other gods with death." It's kind of a terrible plan.

[SavageWombat]

Redcloak himself thinks the plan may well end up with the entire world destroyed ... again. Which, from his POV, is worth it.

[137beth]

RC is willing to allow the world to be destroyed so that the Dark One can have input into the next world.

I'm pretty sure Roy would be opposed to such an idea. The order might work harder to play RC and Xykon against each other, although it isn't clear if they can do anything in that respect.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Even if the Dark One's plan is exactly as described by Redcloak, there are many ways that the plan could backfire and result in the destruction of this world. The gods would definitely go to any lengths to re-imprison the Snarl, even if it means the destruction of the world. Also, Redcloak is willing to destroy this world to make the plan succeed. So, yes I think the Order would stop him. Especially when there are probably better, less world-threatening alternatives.

[Sunken Valley]

Yes, Redcloak still wants to use a god killing abomination as an assassin. And a Dark One with his own way would probably supress humans in revenge. Redcloak is going to kill Gods and cause a dominance shift if not stopped

[Morty]

I don't think anyone in the Order would be willing to let Redcloak go through with the Plan. What they think about Redcloak's motivation and background is another matter. In fact, whether Redcloak is still willing to go through with the Plan himself by the time the Order meet him is a whole other question.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I said before that there are probably better alternatives to Redcloak's plan? Does anyone want to brainstorm some? Do you think the Order would come up with such a plan if they spoke to Redcloak?

[King of Nowhere]

The order would still try to stop redcloak's plan. at least roy would want to do something to bring fairness to the goblin population, however. elan would certainly support it, and with elan haley would side for sure. not sure about durkon, he's so lawful and has been an enemy of goblins for generations. V may or may not care about the goblin people, and belkar would complain at the loss of acceptable targets.


EDIT: as for alternatives to the plan, II'm pretty sure just telling hinjo and o-chul the story of the crimson mantle should make them more willing to treat. they are paladins - and good ones, not miko-like paladins - so if they knew the goblin people had had such an injust treatment from the gods, they will probably want to help them - as long as they can be persuaded to stop being enemies to humans

[Keltest]

At this point, Redcloak already has what he wants. Gobbotopia is an independent political power run by goblinoids. Im skeptical that the Dark One would actually use the gate at this point unless Gobbotopia fails, since its already well on its way to peacefully giving the goblins actual representation, and taking away their XP fodder status.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

At this point, Redcloak already has what he wants. Gobbotopia is an independent political power run by goblinoids. Im skeptical that the Dark One would actually use the gate at this point unless Gobbotopia fails, since its already well on its way to peacefully giving the goblins actual representation, and taking away their XP fodder status.

This is a good point. However, the question is not really whether the Dark One would give up his plan, but rather if Redcloak can let go of his sunk costs.

[Keltest]

This is a good point. However, the question is not really whether the Dark One would give up his plan, but rather if Redcloak can let go of his sunk costs.

Of course not. That's one of his bigger character flaws. But since the Dark One is a direct participant in that plan, His decision as to whether or not the gate should still be used for blackmail matters.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Of course not. That's one of his bigger character flaws. But since the Dark One is a direct participant in that plan, His decision as to whether or not the gate should still be used for blackmail matters.

True.

In counterpoint to your previous post, the Dark One clearly still thinks that the Plan is on, since he tells Redcloak to not screw things up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) (no pressure, though).

[Keltest]

True.

In counterpoint to your previous post, the Dark One clearly still thinks that the Plan is on, since he tells Redcloak to not screw things up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) (no pressure, though).

Ah, but in his genius, Rich made it so that the Dark One could easily be talking about Gobbotopia instead.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, but in his genius, Rich made it so that the Dark One could easily be talking about Gobbotopia instead.

No, Jirix said it was about the Plan and all. Plus, since Redcloak was leaving Gobbotopia, it would be a little odd to relay the message to him.

[Keltest]

No, Jirix said it was about the Plan and all. Plus, since Redcloak was leaving Gobbotopia, it would be a little odd to relay the message to him.

Huh. So he did.

[ChristianSt]

No, Jirix said it was about the Plan and all. Plus, since Redcloak was leaving Gobbotopia, it would be a little odd to relay the message to him.

It is still unclear. It could also mean "don't screw Gobbotopia while pursuing the plan".

To me Gobbotopia is a large part of what the goal of the Plan could look like. I think if the motives of the Dark One is to grant a better life to Goblinoids, than the continuing existence of Gobbotopia might be a better (and easier) thing to realize than the whole Gate-thing.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It is still unclear. It could also mean "don't screw Gobbotopia while pursuing the plan".

To me Gobbotopia is a large part of what the goal of the Plan could look like. I think if the motives of the Dark One is to grant a better life to Goblinoids, than the continuing existence of Gobbotopia might be a better (and easier) thing to realize than the whole Gate-thing.

I read "this" as having to do with the Plan, and not Gobbotopia, and it seems Redcloak does as well. It could mean what you suggest, but it seems like a rather poor way of communicating it.

[137beth]

I like the fact that the message is not clear: is it saying not to screw up the Plan, or Gobbotopia?
Redcloak recognizes that it is reasonably clear, as far as divine revelations go. It is more informative than "in his throneroom", after all:smalltongue:

[warrl]

Vaarsuvius, also, would be sympathetic to an intention that goblins should not be killable just because they are goblins.

On the other hand, I don't think any of the OotS would go along with the idea of turning a Rift or Gate over to an evil deity.

And I think that, as a condition of (hypothetically) cutting a deal with Redcloak, they might also require that all the non-goblin slaves in Gobbotopia be set free.

Now if they do NOT know of Redcloak's plan... Redcloak has a reason to cut a deal with them, and something to offer that they would be pleased to take, as soon as Xykon gets crunched again.

Reason: shortly after that event, Xykon is going to start re-forming near his phylactery. Which is not where he thinks it's supposed to be. He will be more than a bit upset at this fact.

What to offer: the phylactery itself. Perhaps even helping to destroy it.

So I could definitely see a deal happening there.

An important point: Redcloak needs an arcane caster. But he doesn't, anymore, need Xykon. I'd say that since Gobbotopia opened trade relations with the neighbors, Xykon has been more of a threat and obstacle than a help. Redcloak needs a way to (and preferably back from) the location of a Gate, and he needs someone who can cast the arcane side of the ritual. Under the right circumstances, I could see him getting Elan to do the latter ("my deity, the Dark One, has become concerned about these gates and wants to remove one to where it is safer from mortal interference" - which is, in fact, all true). Or, more easily plausible, getting a goblin mage or two.

[Doug Lampert]

I said before that there are probably better alternatives to Redcloak's plan? Does anyone want to brainstorm some? Do you think the Order would come up with such a plan if they spoke to Redcloak?

A better alternative?

Remember a guy called Righteye. Had a village of goblins that was living in such a constant state of war and oppression that a human circus came to entertain the goblin farmers and humans and goblins could attend the shows side by side? Remember who got all those goblins killed, if your guesses have initials like RC and X then you may be onto something...

Remember a hobgoblin civilization with 30,000 warriors and no active wars (till SOMEBODY got 10,000 of them killed by a deliberately too bloody attack plan). Who was it that got 10,000 goblinoids unnecessarily killed there? This time RC can't even blame his creation X, it's all on him.

Ditch the plan. Ditch the cloak. You never needed either one. The rest of the world doesn't care about your crusade and isn't bothering to crush goblinoids beneath their iron heels. Virtually every goblin death and virtually all the goblin suffering we've seen was caused by two people, you and your pet lich. Go away and let the world solve its own problems, it's better off without you.

Now, RC would never USE such a plan. If he did so it would be an admission that all his sunk costs were a horrible mistake, that the goblins he MURDERED all died for nothing but his stupidity and vanity. But, it would be a better plan.

RC has SEEN that the plan is unnecessary, and rejected the evidence of his eyes, will he see it now that he has only one eye left? I doubt it, he tells his brother's image in the mirror that it will all be worth it, remember how his brother died, any bets on how he'd feel about this?

But then it's not hard to come up with a better plan than one that says, "I'll risk the destruction of the souls of every living goblin, but don't worry, it's for the good of goblins everywhere."

[Keltest]

A better alternative?

Remember a guy called Righteye. Had a village of goblins that was living in such a constant state of war and oppression that a human circus came to entertain the goblin farmers and humans and goblins could attend the shows side by side? Remember who got all those goblins killed, if your guesses have initials like RC and X then you may be onto something...

Remember a hobgoblin civilization with 30,000 warriors and no active wars (till SOMEBODY got 10,000 of them killed by a deliberately too bloody attack plan). Who was it that got 10,000 goblinoids unnecessarily killed there? This time RC can't even blame his creation X, it's all on him.

Ditch the plan. Ditch the cloak. You never needed either one. The rest of the world doesn't care about your crusade and isn't bothering to crush goblinoids beneath their iron heels. Virtually every goblin death and virtually all the goblin suffering we've seen was caused by two people, you and your pet lich. Go away and let the world solve its own problems, it's better off without you.

Now, RC would never USE such a plan. If he did so it would be an admission that all his sunk costs were a horrible mistake, that the goblins he MURDERED all died for nothing but his stupidity and vanity. But, it would be a better plan.

RC has SEEN that the plan is unnecessary, and rejected the evidence of his eyes, will he see it now that he has only one eye left? I doubt it, he tells his brother's image in the mirror that it will all be worth it, remember how his brother died, any bets on how he'd feel about this?

But then it's not hard to come up with a better plan than one that says, "I'll risk the destruction of the souls of every living goblin, but don't worry, it's for the good of goblins everywhere."


From a mortal's perspective, the Plan has never been particularly good. The best case scenario has a high probability of you and everyone you know, and everyone you don't know, getting completely destroyed. From the Dark One's perspective, it gives him a chance to get it right beforehand this time, rather than have to dig them out of the hole they were in.

[SowZ]

I'm not going to be talking about the plan, per se, but more establishing a legitimate goblin kingdom or helping the goblin plight.

I could see V trying to help them as penance for past actions. Maybe not help them with The Plan, but something less drastic. What better way to make up for committing genocide on a monster race then helping another monster race?

It would be in character for Elan to try and help a people, any people, in need.

Roy can be reasoned with. It would take convincing, but helping the goblins might be something he would do.

Belkar wouldn't give a crap as long as he gets to fight things, but he would think it was really weird and wouldn't understand why he couldn't kill these goblins.

I couldn't see Haley being okay with this. Not to mention as the least Good good member of the party, I see her as more susceptible to racism. The right chain of events leading her to see the goblins as underdogs and rebels against an oppressive system might give her a change of heart. But I don't see her being presented with the facts and siding with the goblins, even though she is typically a pretty reasonable person.

Durkon would be fine to help the goblins, but I imagine only if they immediately stopped a laundry list of evil actions he wouldn't want to associate with.


A better alternative?

Remember a guy called Righteye. Had a village of goblins that was living in such a constant state of war and oppression that a human circus came to entertain the goblin farmers and humans and goblins could attend the shows side by side? Remember who got all those goblins killed, if your guesses have initials like RC and X then you may be onto something...

Remember a hobgoblin civilization with 30,000 warriors and no active wars (till SOMEBODY got 10,000 of them killed by a deliberately too bloody attack plan). Who was it that got 10,000 goblinoids unnecessarily killed there? This time RC can't even blame his creation X, it's all on him.

Ditch the plan. Ditch the cloak. You never needed either one. The rest of the world doesn't care about your crusade and isn't bothering to crush goblinoids beneath their iron heels. Virtually every goblin death and virtually all the goblin suffering we've seen was caused by two people, you and your pet lich. Go away and let the world solve its own problems, it's better off without you.

Now, RC would never USE such a plan. If he did so it would be an admission that all his sunk costs were a horrible mistake, that the goblins he MURDERED all died for nothing but his stupidity and vanity. But, it would be a better plan.

RC has SEEN that the plan is unnecessary, and rejected the evidence of his eyes, will he see it now that he has only one eye left? I doubt it, he tells his brother's image in the mirror that it will all be worth it, remember how his brother died, any bets on how he'd feel about this?

But then it's not hard to come up with a better plan than one that says, "I'll risk the destruction of the souls of every living goblin, but don't worry, it's for the good of goblins everywhere."

Places like Azure City and presumably other towns do actively oppress and murder goblins, but it is true that we have seen far more of it from Redcloak. You are right in that Right-Eye's solution was always better and after enough generations could work. But that doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't oppressive.

[Morty]

Right-Eye was a good guy and all, and his village was doing okay. But it was just one village, staying off the radar. Trying to build it up towards something major would be fraught with risks, since a gang of adventurers could decide to burn it to the ground at any moment, and the goblins may not be strong enough to stop them. At best they might form a large community that is still squatting in the wilderness and at odds with its neighbours, like the hobgoblins did.

No, I think the goblin races need something more than just trying to keep their heads down and playing nice. The Plan is a pretty catastrophic way of going about it, concocted by a furious, vengeful god and enacted by a furious and vengeful cleric. Even if it were to work as advertised, bullying the gods with the Snarl only perpetuates the cycle of violence, and escalates it horribly, and it would only be a matter of time before someone turned it back on the Dark One and his followers, escalating it further. I suspect the Order of the Stick might end up being instrumental to changing the dynamic between the PC races and monster races, somehow.

As far as individual members go... Roy is generally fed up with the way his world works, and we know he chose to talk with orcs in Origins instead of just butchering them. Elan is beginning to realize that stories are not worth hurting people over - so maybe relegating entire species of people to the role of low-level speedbumps isn't such a hot idea either. Hard to say about Haley - like it's been noted, she spent quite a lot of time in the occupied Azure City, so her opinion on the goblin-kin is low. She also butted heads with Celia about not killing them because it's convenient. Pre-Splice, Vaarsuvius would be probably outraged at the prospect of making those filthy goblins equal to elves, but her character development is also heading in the direction of realizing that maybe the way people, including herself, tend to think about the "monsters" is pretty screwed-up. Durkon might be sympathetic, but he would never accept that his beloved Thor would do something so unfair... before being turned into a vampire, that is. What he's likely to think about if when/if he's freed from the dark spirit's control is anyone's guess. Belkar would normally not give the slightest bit of a damn... but again, he's been changing, so who knows.

Now that I think about it, we have at least two Order members whose character development might be leading in a direction coinciding with this issue...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

A better alternative?

Remember a guy called Righteye. Had a village of goblins that was living in such a constant state of war and oppression that a human circus came to entertain the goblin farmers and humans and goblins could attend the shows side by side? Remember who got all those goblins killed, if your guesses have initials like RC and X then you may be onto something...

Remember a hobgoblin civilization with 30,000 warriors and no active wars (till SOMEBODY got 10,000 of them killed by a deliberately too bloody attack plan). Who was it that got 10,000 goblinoids unnecessarily killed there? This time RC can't even blame his creation X, it's all on him.

Ditch the plan. Ditch the cloak. You never needed either one. The rest of the world doesn't care about your crusade and isn't bothering to crush goblinoids beneath their iron heels. Virtually every goblin death and virtually all the goblin suffering we've seen was caused by two people, you and your pet lich. Go away and let the world solve its own problems, it's better off without you.

Now, RC would never USE such a plan. If he did so it would be an admission that all his sunk costs were a horrible mistake, that the goblins he MURDERED all died for nothing but his stupidity and vanity. But, it would be a better plan.

RC has SEEN that the plan is unnecessary, and rejected the evidence of his eyes, will he see it now that he has only one eye left? I doubt it, he tells his brother's image in the mirror that it will all be worth it, remember how his brother died, any bets on how he'd feel about this?

But then it's not hard to come up with a better plan than one that says, "I'll risk the destruction of the souls of every living goblin, but don't worry, it's for the good of goblins everywhere."
You have a very good point here, and one that I didn't consider when I wrote that question. :smallredface:

I'm sensing here that you don't really find Redcloak sympathetic.

[Keltest]

You have a very good point here, and one that I didn't consider when I wrote that question. :smallredface:

I'm sensing here that you don't really find Redcloak sympathetic.

I cant speak for him, but personally I stopped really sympathizing with Redcloak around the time his mission became "Get revenge for all the horrible things that humans have done to goblins" instead of "ensure the future of goblins by whatever means necessary." Suddenly he goes from a character with a goal we can all appreciate, to a petty one who killed his brother because he was afraid that he wouldn't get revenge if he worked with him. Yes, part of the character is definitely a sunk cost fallacy addiction, but its hard to sympathize with a character who has what he was after, but plans on probably destroying the world anyway.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I cant speak for him, but personally I stopped really sympathizing with Redcloak around the time his mission became "Get revenge for all the horrible things that humans have done to goblins" instead of "ensure the future of goblins by whatever means necessary." Suddenly he goes from a character with a goal we can all appreciate, to a petty one who killed his brother because he was afraid that he wouldn't get revenge if he worked with him. Yes, part of the character is definitely a sunk cost fallacy addiction, but its hard to sympathize with a character who has what he was after, but plans on probably destroying the world anyway.

I agree with this. I don't think that Redcloak's sunk costs, part of his character or not, should be viewed well anyways. I can sympathize with his original cause, but not with how he plans to bring about it.

[Jasdoif]

I cant speak for him, but personally I stopped really sympathizing with Redcloak around the time his mission became "Get revenge for all the horrible things that humans have done to goblins" instead of "ensure the future of goblins by whatever means necessary."Can you tell me when this change of mission happened? As far as I can tell, Redcloak has always been after both of those concurrently, he's never stopped going after either. Which is why he's eager to take actions that work towards both.


Yes, part of the character is definitely a sunk cost fallacy addiction, but its hard to sympathize with a character who has what he was after, but plans on probably destroying the world anyway.You know, I'm really not so sure about that part; not after all the time and effort he's put into organizing Gobbotopia instead of pushing forward with seizing a Gate. And right now, the biggest threat to Gobbotopia is Xykon; if Xykon's only reason for leaving it intact is because he finds it marginally amusing to leave them "to dance on the paladins' graves" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), the thought of crushing Redcloak's dreams in the case of betrayal would easily reverse that decision. And not continuing his "work" with Xykon would be betrayal as far as Xykon's concerned.

Redcloak's taken steps with the fake phylactery (faux-lactery?) to help him deal with Xykon in a permanent fashion, and I wouldn't be surprised if Redcloak chose to retire back to Gobbotopia instead of continuing to go for the Gate.

[Keltest]

Can you tell me when this change of mission happened? As far as I can tell, Redcloak has always been after both of those concurrently, he's never stopped going after either. Which is why he's eager to take actions that work towards both. There isn't really a comic where I can look at it and say that "he no longer cares about the goblins. But especially after Gobbotopia was firmly established, he seems much more interested in finishing what he started rather than trying whatever works. Maybe its just because I don't own SoD (ill have to fix that this summer!) but his character seemed much more concerned with the welfare of the goblin race for its own sake, rather than using that as a middle finger towards the people who oppressed him.


You know, I'm really not so sure about that part; not after all the time and effort he's put into organizing Gobbotopia instead of pushing forward with seizing a Gate. And right now, the biggest threat to Gobbotopia is Xykon; if Xykon's only reason for leaving it intact is because he finds it marginally amusing to leave them "to dance on the paladins' graves" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), the thought of crushing Redcloak's dreams in the case of betrayal would easily reverse that decision. And not continuing his "work" with Xykon would be betrayal as far as Xykon's concerned.

Redcloak's taken steps with the fake phylactery (faux-lactery?) to help him deal with Xykon in a permanent fashion, and I wouldn't be surprised if Redcloak chose to retire back to Gobbotopia instead of continuing to go for the Gate.

If Redcloak really wanted to, im willing to bet that with all his contingencies he has now, he could just kill Xykon and call it a day if he really tried. It wouldn't be easy by any definition, but he's no slouch in the power department. I could of course be mistaken, but Xykon is so confidant that Redcloak is still his unthinking minion that Redcloak could get in a nice surprise attack. Certainly he wouldn't deliberately go out of his way to cause problems for the Order if he had no interest in keeping Xykon alive and intact.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

(faux-lactery?)

That is absolutely beautiful.