Ninja

[goat]

In OotS 414 we see Roy attacked by what appear to ninja in the last panel.

Thinking about this (and the relative dismissal of the Ninja as an effective Player Class) how would you play ninja in your games?

Would they be stealthy, secretive assassins who make a single strike and then run? Would they be stealthy warriors who make a sudden leathal attack on the primary target and then hang around to mop up the remaining trouble?

Can and SHOULD a ninja be able to stand up to any other class in a protracted fight, or should they be running away at the first sign of returned fire?


Personally, I feel ninja should be soft targets, with skills in social abilities far above those they possess in combat. They should specialise in getting close to their target and gaining their trust rather than cutting their way through a guard. But I'd be interested to know other ideas and experiences of using ninja in game.

[ZekeArgo]

In OotS 414 we see Roy attacked by what appear to ninja in the last panel.

Thinking about this (and the relative dismissal of the Ninja as an effective Player Class) how would you play ninja in your games?

Would they be stealthy, secretive assassins who make a single strike and then run? Would they be stealthy warriors who make a sudden leathal attack on the primary target and then hang around to mop up the remaining trouble?

Can and SHOULD a ninja be able to stand up to any other class in a protracted fight, or should they be running away at the first sign of returned fire?


Personally, I feel ninja should be soft targets, with skills in social abilities far above those they possess in combat. They should specialise in getting close to their target and gaining their trust rather than cutting their way through a guard. But I'd be interested to know other ideas and experiences of using ninja in game.

Buh? How is the Ninja not an effective player class? I mean sure if your thinking of yourself as "ULTIMATE POWER! Time to FLIP OUT!" then sure you're not going to fit into a party. As written they're really a more magical rogue-analogue.

[Matthew]

Rogue pretty much already fits the Ninja, as far as I can see.

[goat]

I know several people, and have seen many more on these fair boards, who think of the ninja as a substandard D&D class.

But I'm actually more interested in general thoughts of ninja beyond their relative effective/cheesy natures. Where should they fit in to the scheme of fighting/magic classes?

[crazedloon]

I to disagree about the ninja not being a viable player class. They make a perfectly good rogue substitute and have some good abilities to boot. There ghost step ability is ridiculous if used right as well as there ability to climb walls. The ability to climb walls seams trivial but my ninja can move faster on a wall then on the ground (due to skill tricks). Also I find the ability to easily make my opponent flat-footed is a great advantage I play a ninja master thrower and when you can do touch attacks with thrown weapons against flatfooted people with sudden strike damage it gets a little silly :smallwink:

why do you think that they are a bad PC (you cant just say they are :smalltongue: )

[crazedloon]

I know several people, and have seen many more on these fair boards, who think of the ninja as a substandard D&D class.

But I'm actually more interested in general thoughts of ninja beyond their relative effective/cheesy natures. Where should they fit in to the scheme of fighting/magic classes?

The PC is perfectly good if you ask me they are effective scouts with some fun abilities that make them particularly good at getting info that they are not supposed to have. They also are the ultimate gorilla warfare class because they are hard to spot and even harder to hit. If you ask me that is very much what the classic ninja should be.

[starwoof]

Hey, woah. Ninja is a boss class. Very easy to get that sudden strike bonus, what with the ability to become invisible for a full round. Oh, and etherealness. Its just as good as a rogue, unless for some reason you'd like to wear armor instead of having a wisdom bonus. My ninja was also a master thrower, though he was effective without it and was actually more like spiderman (he shot webs!).

[goat]

why do you think that they are a bad PC (you cant just say they are :smalltongue: )

I must admit to have never having played, nor looked at playing one. I'm running on other people's opinions alone :smalleek:

[Lord Xaedien]

If the ninja is ineffective than the fighter class is the worst class ever conceived by man.

[crazedloon]

If the ninja is ineffective than the fighter class is the worst class ever conceived by man.

lol bad example :smallwink:

I.e. many people will agree with the fighter being the worst (in its current form)

[Matthew]

Not up to Level 5, they won't.

Ninja is a damn sight better than the 3.5 Samurai, that's for sure...

[TheOOB]

Hmm, most ninja I use in my campaigns are some combination of rogue, fighter, and/or assassin, though I've been known to sometimes use illusionists and spymasters at times.

I have acually never had someone with the job of ninja have the ninja class, though i used the ninja class for a small order of shadow monks that appeared briefly in a campaign.

[JaronK]

Reasons why the ninja base class stinks:

A) Sudden strike is strictly worse than Sneak Attack.

B) Wisdom to AC is worse than wearing light armour

C) Due to A and B, a Ninja is weaker than a Rogue in melee, and that's a bad thing. No, turning invisible a few times per day doesn't help, see D.

D) Their main class feature, sudden strike, often relies on their invisibility ki power to work. However, that power is only useable a few times per day, and many monsters above CR8 see invisible anyway. Thus, at low levels they can rarely use their abilities, and at high levels sudden strike becomes nearly obsolete.

E) MAD. They're rogues that need Wisdom too.

F) Lower skill points than a rogue means they're not as good skill monkeys as rogues, especially with MAD factored in. Their skill list is smaller too.

G) Late evasion. Unlike the monk, scout, and rogue, they don't get evasion until level 12, and they never get improved evasion. WTF? Ninjas can't dodge?

Their advantages simply don't make up for the fact that they're worse than a rogue at pretty much everything they do. Ugh.

JaronK

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I do agree that the Ninja is a little weak. It's like they took the Rogue and Monk, combined them, and made them suck.

[crazedloon]

Reasons why the ninja base class stinks:

A) Sudden strike is strictly worse than Sneak Attack.


as far as that is concerned I agree if you can get flanking sneak is better but that means you are closer and thus venerable to an opponents attack. So really the only difference is you can’t get extra damage from getting close and thus pummeled to death.


B) Wisdom to AC is worse than wearing light armour

That is very debatable the only advantage you can get with the armor is ease of enchanting (because playing a ninja you wis is probably high enough that you are getting the equivalent of a chain shirt) for special purposes. You can just as easily get a few items that up wis and get more armor + more use of your special abilities (in my opinion better) please gives an example of the armor being better.


C) Due to A and B, a Ninja is weaker than a Rogue in melee, and that's a bad thing. No, turning invisible a few times per day doesn't help, see D.

I will agree in strait melee ninja will be worse then a rogue (exept a rogue cant ki dodge but that is a diffrent issue) that may be why so many ninjas become master throwers.


D) Their main class feature, sudden strike, often relies on their invisibility ki power to work. However, that power is only useable a few times per day, and many monsters above CR8 see invisible anyway. Thus, at low levels they can rarely use their abilities, and at high levels sudden strike becomes nearly obsolete.

realy i dont think this is all that big a problem if you only have a few encounters a day (if your DM is encounter happy yes this could be a problem) however use of the invis ability isnt realy that bad since you are focusing on your wis anyway you should have a bunch of uses.


E) MAD. They're rogues that need Wisdom too.

not realy a big problem for me (could be why i like them) becuase we use 4d6 drop lowest and that is the only time i role well :smalltongue: . but with the proper feats even a point buy ninja can be ok. with Inutative attack (if you are good) you can even use your high wis for attacks.


F) Lower skill points than a rogue means they're not as good skill monkeys as rogues, especially with MAD factored in. Their skill list is smaller too.

Once again depends on how you get points and distribute them. Really you should be able to get enough skill points to be an adequate skill monkey. You may not be able to do everything but you will be able to find and disable traps and open locked things


G) Late evasion. Unlike the monk, scout, and rogue, they don't get evasion until level 12, and they never get improved evasion. WTF? Ninjas can't dodge?

that is my only gripe about the ninja but with master thrower in there you get the evasion earlier.

realy i think ninjais a good pc at least on par with the rogue but you just play it diffrently. also with a prestige like master thrower you can become quite good.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Ninja is a damn sight better than the 3.5 Samurai, that's for sure...

I'd argue that a BARD is better than the 3.5 Samurai. At least the bard can serve well in one capacity... ;)

[goat]

I LIKE bards. I think they have flavour.

[Neon Knight]

Can I ask which 3.5 samurai we are talking about here?

[Renegade Paladin]

The Complete Warrior one, I would presume. That's the only one I'm aware of, at any rate, and it sucks.

[NinjaClarinet]

While I don't know the information on the actual Ninja class, I usually just emulate them with a

Fighter/Assassin/Shadowdancer multiclass

works well enough...

[Darth Anthony]

I think the real problem with the Ninja is that it is tough to fit the class into a party (assuming that they are well rounded with classes and skills). We have tried it a few times, and the ninja became the odd guy out. It worked a little bit better when we did not have a rogue in the party and the story required a lot of sneaking around.

[TheOOB]

I think the real problem with the Ninja is that it is tough to fit the class into a party (assuming that they are well rounded with classes and skills). We have tried it a few times, and the ninja became the odd guy out. It worked a little bit better when we did not have a rogue in the party and the story required a lot of sneaking around.

Well, ninjas, both the class and profession, are supposed to work best alone. They can only work well alongside others who don't blow their cover/hiding position and thus ruin any combat ability they may have.

[Seatbelt]

I could see a ninja being cool in a party built around sneaking. But it's been my general experience that if one character is built totally around stealth, everyone else wears fullplate.

[JaronK]

as far as that is concerned I agree if you can get flanking sneak is better but that means you are closer and thus venerable to an opponents attack. So really the only difference is you can’t get extra damage from getting close and thus pummeled to death.

While I agree that flanking can be a dangerous thing for a d6HD light armoured class, it's still the easiest way to get sneak attack. You can do it against targets with blindsight and see invisibility, which ninjas can't do. It's also more consistant, in that you can flank pretty much all day long if you can avoid dying.


That is very debatable the only advantage you can get with the armor is ease of enchanting (because playing a ninja you wis is probably high enough that you are getting the equivalent of a chain shirt) for special purposes. You can just as easily get a few items that up wis and get more armor + more use of your special abilities (in my opinion better) please gives an example of the armor being better.

It's really not that debateable. Ignoring magical enchantments, a ninja at level 20 gets 14+Wis+Dex to AC. A rogue gets 10+Dex to AC, but can add in a Suslian (sp?) Chainweave Muffling Mithral Chain Shirt (+4AC, no penalties, +2 Move Silently, DR 3/Piercing), Adamantium Dastanas (+2AC, DR 1/-), and a Mithral Buckler (+1AC, -1 to hit). That puts the rogue at 17AC+Dex, with damage reduction and a move silently bonus, plus any enchantments. When you factor in that the ninja who's pumping Wis can't pump Dex as high, the rogue wins out pretty solidly.


I will agree in strait melee ninja will be worse then a rogue (exept a rogue cant ki dodge but that is a diffrent issue) that may be why so many ninjas become master throwers.

But a rogue can do that too... in fact, a Halfling rogue can take the level 1 substitution and get an extra d6 of sneak attack, plus they can throw in crippling strike, and they can hide as a free action during an attack reutine via the 10th level subsitution too. Once again, the ninja can do it, but the rogue can do it better.


realy i dont think this is all that big a problem if you only have a few encounters a day (if your DM is encounter happy yes this could be a problem) however use of the invis ability isnt realy that bad since you are focusing on your wis anyway you should have a bunch of uses.

Since you need that invis, when you start dealing with daemons and other high level baddies who see invisibility, you're suddenly screwed. Can't go in there and flank, after all. And again, pumping Wis means dropping Int or Dex or Str or Con to compensate.


not realy a big problem for me (could be why i like them) becuase we use 4d6 drop lowest and that is the only time i role well :smalltongue: . but with the proper feats even a point buy ninja can be ok. with Inutative attack (if you are good) you can even use your high wis for attacks.

Pumping your wis above your dex (and thus using intuitive attack instead of weapon finesse) just means your shooting is worse and your AC isn't any better (since you could have put those points into Dex anyway). Not so good.


Once again depends on how you get points and distribute them. Really you should be able to get enough skill points to be an adequate skill monkey. You may not be able to do everything but you will be able to find and disable traps and open locked things

You've been assuming a high wis this whole time to compensate for lack of armour. You're also talking about throwing, so you need dex. Unless you're insanely lucky on rolls or your DM lets you roll 5d6 and drop the high die, you're probably not going to be able to have high int too and not be cripplingly weak or have no hitpoints. Your average skill monkey is supposed to have, generally, Bluff, Move Silently, Hide, Open Locks, Disable Device, Search, and Use Magic Device. That's all your skill points right there if your int bonus is only +1, and it's leaving out some very useful ones (Diplomacy, for example). So no, you're not as good as the rogue here either.


that is my only gripe about the ninja but with master thrower in there you get the evasion earlier.

Yeah, ninjas not being good at dodging is lame. So is the fact that they get no run speed bonus (shouldn't ninjas be fast?). They don't feel as ninja as I'd want them to.


realy i think ninjais a good pc at least on par with the rogue but you just play it diffrently. also with a prestige like master thrower you can become quite good.

I disagree. I'd say that in general, a rogue created with the same point buy or sane rolls as a ninja can do the job better, and that includes in the throwing roll. It's tough to beat a Halfling Rogue 13/Master Thrower 5 with a (insert race here) Ninja 13/Master Thrower 5, for example, since the Halfling can hide between shots all day long and isn't trumped by see invis, plus every shot drops the target's strength by 2, and his damage is one die higher.

I complain about the ninja mostly because when I tried to make one, I just couldn't get one that actually felt like a ninja. No hand to hand ability, no run speed bonus, no evasion... even using PrCs I couldn't quite get what I wanted until high level, and even then it was sketchy (the use of the Ninja Spy PrC really helps, but a Rogue can qualify for the PrC a lot faster anyway).

JaronK

[Legoman]

The PC is perfectly good if you ask me they are effective scouts with some fun abilities that make them particularly good at getting info that they are not supposed to have. They also are the ultimate gorilla warfare class because they are hard to spot and even harder to hit. If you ask me that is very much what the classic ninja should be.

Druids = Gorilla warfare.

Ninjas = Guerrilla warfare.

Scouts = Better Guerrilla warfare.

[crazedloon]

lol ok i am no good at the spelling :smalltongue:



While I agree that flanking can be a dangerous thing for a d6HD light armoured class, it's still the easiest way to get sneak attack. You can do it against targets with blindsight and see invisibility, which ninjas can't do. It's also more consistant, in that you can flank pretty much all day long if you can avoid dying.

lol you are now making an assumption that your rogue can live through the encounter that’s a little silly ok you will get a few extra sneak dice but guess what you are dead good for you now the ninja could do the same thing (we are assuming the critter can see invisible as that is your argument) and not get hit nearly as often due to ki-dodge. Thus the ninja doesn’t do as much damage but lives long enough to make up for lost damage. Add on to that (yes it is only a small advantage but it is an important one if exploited) that the ninja weapons are probably poisoned and you will have an easy time killing anything a rogue can but can do it safer




It's really not that debateable. Ignoring magical enchantments, a ninja at level 20 gets 14+Wis+Dex to AC. A rogue gets 10+Dex to AC, but can add in a Suslian (sp?) Chainweave Muffling Mithral Chain Shirt (+4AC, no penalties, +2 Move Silently, DR 3/Piercing), Adamantium Dastanas (+2AC, DR 1/-), and a Mithral Buckler (+1AC, -1 to hit). That puts the rogue at 17AC+Dex, with damage reduction and a move silently bonus, plus any enchantments. When you factor in that the ninja who's pumping Wis can't pump Dex as high, the rogue wins out pretty solidly.

lol wow that was a very silly comparison for you. Ok now the rogue has just geared up what does the ninja get? You didn’t mention pricing on all that nor did you mention any goodies for the ninja to replace that armor with. That is the actual advantage of the wis for armor. You can get things that a normal character can’t because they are spending their gold on armor to protect themselves. You can make or buy almost any ability a piece of armor can get on another item. also in your example if the ninja doesn’t have a +3 bonus on wis that’s a little sad at lvl20 I would not be surprised if it had well above +3 thus its ac would be higher then the rogues.



But a rogue can do that too... in fact, a Halfling rogue can take the level 1 substitution and get an extra d6 of sneak attack, plus they can throw in crippling strike, and they can hide as a free action during an attack reutine via the 10th level subsitution too. Once again, the ninja can do it, but the rogue can do it better.

ok i would respond but i have no clue what that is mind explaining.



Since you need that invis, when you start dealing with daemons and other high level baddies who see invisibility, you're suddenly screwed. Can't go in there and flank, after all. And again, pumping Wis means dropping Int or Dex or Str or Con to compensate.

See above explanation why that is bad yes but the ninja makes up for it with other abilities. And if we want to throw in things one class get slightly screwed against lets talk about incorporeal critters the rogue can sit there all day swing and missing every time. The ninja can use a few uses of his power to hit when it counts.




Pumping your wis above your dex (and thus using intuitive attack instead of weapon finesse) just means your shooting is worse and your AC isn't any better (since you could have put those points into Dex anyway). Not so good.

yes that was a bad example i will admit



You've been assuming a high wis this whole time to compensate for lack of armour. You're also talking about throwing, so you need dex. Unless you're insanely lucky on rolls or your DM lets you roll 5d6 and drop the high die, you're probably not going to be able to have high int too and not be cripplingly weak or have no hitpoints. Your average skill monkey is supposed to have, generally, Bluff, Move Silently, Hide, Open Locks, Disable Device, Search, and Use Magic Device. That's all your skill points right there if your int bonus is only +1, and it's leaving out some very useful ones (Diplomacy, for example). So no, you're not as good as the rogue here either.

like i said i am lucky with my rolls :smallwink:
and yes you will be a little streached as far as you stats go but it evens out later with equipment.



Yeah, ninjas not being good at dodging is lame. So is the fact that they get no run speed bonus (shouldn't ninjas be fast?). They don't feel as ninja as I'd want them to.
lol i agree but with the proper skill tricks you can make them very fast (i can get an additional 30 feet) on a wall and that is very ninja if you ask me :smallbiggrin:



I disagree. I'd say that in general, a rogue created with the same point buy or sane rolls as a ninja can do the job better, and that includes in the throwing roll. It's tough to beat a Halfling Rogue 13/Master Thrower 5 with a (insert race here) Ninja 13/Master Thrower 5, for example, since the Halfling can hide between shots all day long and isn't trumped by see invis, plus every shot drops the target's strength by 2, and his damage is one die higher.
ok so you are telling me these critters who can see invis have bad spot checks you are kidding me right :smallannoyed: ok yes if we have a straight comparison like that now lets say we have a competent player making the two characters i.e. they throw in 1 lvl of shadow dancer on each now they are on even footing as far as hiding and the ninja has abilitys that makes the rogue a little jelous. after all when the rogue cant pick the lock to get into the room he has to hope for the caster to do it or the meat sheild to break it when the ninja cant he walks through it.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Like I said, I am lucky with my rolls. :smallwink:
And yes, you will be a little stretched as far as your stats go, but it evens out later with equipment.
A little stretched? Let's see. You need Str (a bit, at least), Dex (for AC), Con (for HP), Int (for skills), and Wis (for Ki powers and AC). That's every stat except Cha.

Ok, so you are telling me that these critters who can see invis have bad spot checks, you are kidding me, right? :smallannoyed: Ok yes if we have a straight comparison like that now let's say we have a competent player making the two characters, i.e. they throw in 1 lvl of shadow dancer on each, now they are on even footing as far as hiding and the ninja has abilities that makes the rogue a little jealous. After all, when the rogue can't pick the lock to get into the room he has to hope for the caster to do it or the meat sheild to break it; when the ninja can't he walks through it.
No-one's saying that the creatures that can see invisibility have bad spot checks, they're saying that the rogue can flank them to get the extra d6s ninjas can't. And, why take a level of Shadowdancer when you can take some levels of Assassin and get Hide in Plain Sight, sneak attack progression and spells for some skill requirements you should have anyway.
Also, bear in mind that the ninja has to let in the rest of his group, and how's he going to do that?

[oriong]

Actually the amount of creatures capable of naturally seeing invisible creatures is fairly small (you're much more likely to simply run into a problem due to a creature immune to sneak attack or sudden strike altogether). It's not completely irrelevant but it's a minor concern.

Ninjas do suffer from MAD, but it's not terrible unless you're after maximum optimization, still unpleasant though. However, AC wise they aren't significantly behind the rogue since the same money spent on getting all that armor for the rogue (dastanas don't count by the way, those don't exist in 3.5 unless I'm mistaken) can be spent to give the ninja bracers of armor just fine. With a decent Wisdom and Dex (say a +5 total bonus) to ninja won't be far behind his rogue counterpart.


The real problem ninjas have is that their class design is built around soloing. They make excellent hit and run or strike and escape fighters, since their abilities are mostly centered around being able to avoid engagements altogether. They are better than the rogue at this (also consider that while a ninja recieves his AC benefits at almost all times the rogue may not always be able to wear his armor)

The problem is that a ninja's ideal combat scenarios are absolutely against the normal fighting style of the standard PC group. They're loners who, ideally, will never fight more than one combat a day (since the entire point is to get in, do the job, get out) and they do this great. However the PC group is a team often meant to face multiple battles one after another. The ninja can participate but really it's not their scene. Ninjas work best alone, or with other ninjas (rogues can tag along too, but not quite as well).

[Starbuck_II]

You guys do realize Ghost Step becomes Etheral so see invisible no longer helps. Around level 12 I think.

[Khantalas]

Yeah, but then you have to spend even more ki power to actually hit your opponents.

[crazedloon]

A little stretched? Let's see. You need Str (a bit, at least), Dex (for AC), Con (for HP), Int (for skills), and Wis (for Ki powers and AC). That's every stat except Cha.
Actually you don’t really need the str and you can afford to be a little low on the con because of the difficulties people will have at hitting you. Rogues can’t really be low on con because there is little chance that they will spend an entire battle without being hit.



No-one's saying that the creatures that can see invisibility have bad spot checks, they're saying that the rogue can flank them to get the extra d6s ninjas can't. And, why take a level of Shadowdancer when you can take some levels of Assassin and get Hide in Plain Sight, sneak attack progression and spells for some skill requirements you should have anyway.
Also, bear in mind that the ninja has to let in the rest of his group, and how's he going to do that?
the level in shadow dancer is because you get hide in plain site at level 1 where as assassin (yes it is very good indeed with a ninja getting 3 rounds of observation is really really easy) does not get it until level 9 (I think it has been a little while since I’ve looked at it) and that was a simple change to the build to show that hiding easily is just as easy for a ninja as it is for the rogue if you multi-class reasonably for that purpose.


The real problem ninjas have is that their class design is built around soloing. They make excellent hit and run or strike and escape fighters, since their abilities are mostly centered around being able to avoid engagements altogether. They are better than the rogue at this (also consider that while a ninja recieves his AC benefits at almost all times the rogue may not always be able to wear his armor)
I am little confused how you can say the ninja is any less of a team player. Yes they are not as team oriented as a rogue i.e. they can live without the team fighter helping to flank an opponent which a rogue needs. This leaves the ninja open to attack any other foe or another task.



The problem is that a ninja's ideal combat scenarios are absolutely against the normal fighting style of the standard PC group. They're loners who, ideally, will never fight more than one combat a day (since the entire point is to get in, do the job, get out) and they do this great. However the PC group is a team often meant to face multiple battles one after another. The ninja can participate but really it's not their scene. Ninjas work best alone, or with other ninjas (rogues can tag along too, but not quite as well).
That is one of the things that make playing a PC ninja fun and challenging. You have to learn when to conserve you ki-points in order to be able to use them when the situation needs it


Yeah, but then you have to spend even more ki power to actually hit your opponents.
That is why it is a choice between invis and Etheral :smallwink:

[Person_Man]

I agree with Jaron and OrionG. They're basically a weak class that can do well if they're by themselves or just other super sneaky types. But 99% of parties won't be all Sneaky types, and most parties and DMs loath splitting up for extended periods of time.

Also, there is no Ninja build that I can't accomplish better as a Rogue or Rogue/Prestige Class build using typical feats and standard gold. So while they're cool, they're usually not worth playing.

[Jimp]

Actually you don’t really need the str

If you are using a throwing based build, like you have suggested, you will need a someway decent strength score. Remember that the higher your strength the further you can throw throwing weapons. With a low strength you will need to get just as close as a melee rogue would and closer than an archer rouge would.

[crazedloon]

If you are using a throwing based build, like you have suggested, you will need a someway decent strength score. Remember that the higher your strength the further you can throw throwing weapons. With a low strength you will need to get just as close as a melee rogue would and closer than an archer rouge would.

what the heck are you talking about last time i checked (and i could be wrong) str has nothing to do with how far you throw a weapon range increment does

[lared]

Crazedloon, Wis+Dex to AC is objectively and quantifiably worse than simply wearing light armor and Dex.

Assume a ninja and a rogue with equivalent Dex. For the rogue using cheap, non-enhanced equipment, light armor gives +4 to AC. For comparable AC, the Ninja needs 18 Wisdom. So to even achieve parity, the Ninja needs to start with extremely and unreasonably high Wisdom (while at the same time having the same Dex as the rogue).

Yes, the Ninja can enhance Wisdom and/or bracers to get higher AC. But as the Ninja spends money doing this, the Rogue spends money enhancing Dex and/or his armor at an equivalent rate. The Rogue also has access to mithralizing his armor, which is an incredibly gold-efficient means of optimizing AC. Mathematically speaking, the Ninja can _never_ get ahead on AC, because the Ninja starts behind and the Ninja's avenues for improving AC are never cheaper than the Rogue's.

[oriong]

Keep in mind that the ninja does get an additional AC boost (a small one), so at higher levels he doesn't have to rely completely on Wisdom and magic items.

The main benefit of the ninja's armor is, in my opinion, the fact that it works perfectly for exactly what a ninja does: infiltration and stealth. The rogue may not have an Armor Check penalty, but there are places you can't go in armor. A ninja will have the AC bonus even when she's disguised as a half-naked belly-dancer.

And CrazedLoon, the reason why a ninja does not work well with other PCs is that they are built for completely different purposes: a ninja is optimized for infiltration and espionage, almost exclusively in an urban environment: they get an 'invisible' AC bonus, they can move through walls or climb them rapidly, they can become invisible for a few seconds (all it takes to duck behind some cover or go into another room) and they get bonuses to strike from hiding.

However, this does not mesh well with a PC group. First of all, most PCs don't actually operate in the primarily urban environment that ninjas thrive in. They go into dungeons and caves or explore the wilderness. Second, the PC set up is highly team-based. A rogue may scout ahead but when he finds the enemy he doesn't attack on his own, he goes back and let's the group know what's up.

The ninja's disadvantage is that the class emphasizes stealth and mobility above everything else, the ninja is meant to get to a target, attack (hopefully lethally) then get away all while remaining hidden. The ninja does this very well, and often much better than a rogue does. However a party of non-stealth characters can't do this, the ninja will either leave them behind or not participate at all.

[Josh Inno]

In real life, most Ninjas from Japan were actually Samurai, and the most effective ninjas were ones that looked perfectly harmless. Many non-samurai ninja disguised themselves as traveling merchants, and had tools that could be used either as tools of their trade, or as weapons, thus allowing them to have weapons far closer to hand when speaking with their target than most others would have been. The less a ninja appears to be a ninja, the more of a ninja he truly is.

[lared]

The main benefit of the ninja's armor is, in my opinion, the fact that it works perfectly for exactly what a ninja does: infiltration and stealth. The rogue may not have an Armor Check penalty, but there are places you can't go in armor. A ninja will have the AC bonus even when she's disguised as a half-naked belly-dancer.

You're right, of course. When I say "objectively and quantifiably better" I should probably have specified I meant better for a purely crunch-perspective. Not having to wear armor is a not insignificant advantage in certain RP contexts.

[crazedloon]

Ok true at a lower level light armor is better then wis bonus. However when you bring into consideration at a higher level the playing field evens out as far as wis vs. armor because at a higher level you will be getting items which boost wis. You also get the other abilities from wis bonuses. It is not so out of the question to have such a high wisdom score on a ninja because you can be a little lax with a few of your stats. Plus as you progress in levels you will be getting extra stat points you can put into dex or wisdom to boost it even further.

Also mithralizing armor as you say really isn’t all that productive all you do is increase the dex bonus you can get or add +1 (by taking a breastplate over chain shirt) and doing that to your armor is and additional 4000 gp for the medium (as it would probably be your best choice) which is at least gloves of dex +2 (that’s off the top of my head I'm sure there is an equivalent for wis +2) which allows the same addition to your ac that the mithralizing does.

The biggest problem with this discussion (and I think your gripe about the ninja) is the way in which you get your stats. Point buying a ninja is a little harder to do than a rogue but here is a simple example.

Rogue you point buy your dex to 18 to get max dex bonus for ac that is 16 points for a +4 to armor
Ninja point buy wis and dex to 14 each for an equivalent AC of +4 for only 12 points you now have 4 to play with

I understand that you add the armor on to the rogue and its ac goes much higher than on the ninja and that is very true at level 1 however go up a few levels and you start getting some gold which you can spend on items to boost your scores to an equivalent level of ac.

And is the ac really the only gripe you have with the ninja? the skills you gain are a little lower true (2+ difference in int but that’s is max 1-2) each level but that just means you wont be nearly as spread out skill wise as a rogue. But you can do things rogues can not. And the other characters in your group can cover for the few things you can not do as well as a rogue.

[oriong]

The same amount of gold spent on a Wisdom boosting item could be used for the rogue to buy an item to boost Dex or on magical armor (which is cheaper for the same bonus). An item that gives +6 to Wisdom (+3 to AC) is 36,000 gp. A +5 suit of armor and a +2 amulet of natural armor and a +1 ring of protection is 35,000. Cheaper and almost 3 times the AC bonus.

A 20th level rogue armed with the above would have an AC of 22 + Dex while a 20th level ninja with just the wisdom booster would have a bonus of 17+ Dex +Wis, so it would be impossible for the ninja to have the same bonus unless his starting Wisdom is 20.

EDIT: In fact it would be much wiser for the ninja to simply invest in a set of Bracers of Armor +6 (which are also 36,000 gp) or if you want to uber optimize then a set of Bracers +4, A ring of protection +2, and an amulet of natural armor +2. +8 AC bonus for less.

[lared]

Of course the Ninja can improve AC by spending money. The point is, the Rogue can do it to, and at the same rate. So the Rogue starts out with an immediate advantage because he can put on armor, and then the two of them continue to scale upward equally (the rogue adds enhancement bonuses to his armor when the ninja gets bracers of armor, they both can use rings and amulets of deflection/natural armor, they both can get stat-boosting items, etc. etc.)

Oh, and mithralization _is_ enormously efficient, and one way the rogue gets a leg up on the ninja in terms of the purchasing-better-armor race. It's not something you do when you still have +1 or +2 armor, but as soon as you are going from +2 to +3 armor - which costs 5k - mithralization becomes cost effective, even more so if you have the Dex to benefit from cheap mithral chain shirts (which the rogue, freed from MAD as he can dump Wis, probably will by high levels).

I wouldn't say the ninja is unplayable, indeed it's one of the more fun classes to play (especially mid-low levels, when the ghost step is actually cool to use). But its reputation for being on the low end of the power curve is warranted. And there is certainly nothing the ninja can do that the rogue cannot (aside from the rather flavorful ability to not have to wear your armor everywhere).

[crazedloon]

The same amount of gold spent on a Wisdom boosting item could be used for the rogue to buy an item to boost Dex or on magical armor (which is cheaper for the same bonus). An item that gives +6 to Wisdom (+3 to AC) is 36,000 gp. A +5 suit of armor and a +2 amulet of natural armor and a +1 ring of protection is 35,000. Cheaper and almost 3 times the AC bonus.

in that example i would preffer iuon stones (i think that is spelled right and i never understood why they were cheaper then the other items) they would give a +8 (+4 to ac) and leave you with another 4000 to use to buy gloves of dex +2 so +5 to ac

then if you switch around the above purchases for plain ac (as apposed to the extra wisdom for use of abilities) you can drop 1 stone for the amulet and another for bracers of armor +3 and drop the gloves for the ring of protection +1 so you have a +9 ac vs. the rogues +8 and you will still have 1000 to spend on other goodies (my favorite is poison)

[oriong]

in that example i would preffer iuon stones (i think that is spelled right and i never understood why they wre cheaper then the other items) they would give a +8 (+4 to ac) and leave you with another 4000 to use to buy gloves of dex +2 so +5 to ac

then if you futs around with the above for plain ac (as aposed to teh extra wisdom for use of abilitys) you can drop 1 stone for the amulet and another for bracors of armor +2 so you have a +8 ac vs the rogues +8

Uhm...Ioun stones are more expensive than other items, twice as expensive in fact. A Blue Ioun Stone (+2 to Wisdom) is 8,000 and it doesn't stack with the peripat of wisdom, so there's no way for you to get a +8 bonus at all, and it's certainly not going to be cheaper. Unless you're thinking you can buy 4 ioun stones, which you can't: their bonuses do not stack.


Ok that is better :smalltongue: but you also have to take into account the ramifications of the armor i.e. armor check penalties

That's why the mithral is being used, it's not just to get a higher dex bonus. A mithral chainmail shirt isn't that expensive at higher levels and it removes armor penalties altogether.

[crazedloon]

Uhm...Ioun stones are more expensive than other items, twice as expensive in fact. A Blue Ioun Stone (+2 to Wisdom) is 8,000 and it doesn't stack with the peripat of wisdom, so there's no way for you to get a +8 bonus at all, and it's certainly not going to be cheaper. Unless you're thinking you can buy 4 ioun stones, which you can't: their bonuses do not stack.

ah there is where i become stupid :smalleek: ok ill have to brush up on my bonuses from items mind siting that for me :smallbiggrin:

also look above with the way i changed it around you still have 16000 to spend and you are at +7 ac not bad

[Person_Man]

Ok that is better :smalltongue: but you also have to take into account the ramifications of the armor i.e. armor check penalties

A Mithril Breastplate (which is also by definition masterwork) has a Max Dex bonus of 5 and 0 Armor check penalty.

Even if you assume a Rogue's Dex is going to be so insanely high that they give up their armor to avoid the max Dex bonus, its still cheaper and more effective for them to buy various amulets/rings/cloaks/etc then it is for a Ninja to boost their Dex and Wis simultanously.

Give it up Crazedloon. We're not arguing fluff here, just math. The math is clearly against the Ninja.

[crazedloon]

Give it up Crazedloon. We're not arguing fluff here, just math. The math is clearly against the Ninja.

lol unfortunatly i am stuborn and stupid :smalltongue:

but realy ill give up once i get a link to the ruling that says bonuses from many stones dont stack (i dont doubt i am just wondering)

also look at the edited build it has +7 ac without stacking any additional scores and 16000 to spare so im sure that the ninja could catch up :smallwink:

[kamikasei]

lol unfortunatly i am stuborn and stupid :smalltongue:

but realy ill give up once i get a link to the ruling that says bonuses from many stones dont stack (i dont doubt i am just wondering)

Ioun stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) give enhancement bonuses (to Wisdom).

Enhancement bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) from multiple sources applied to a single user don't stack.

The d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/) is your friend.

[crazedloon]

Ioun stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) give enhancement bonuses (to Wisdom).

Enhancement bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) from multiple sources applied to a single user don't stack.

The d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/) is your friend.

yep thank you after i asked i looked it up :smallbiggrin:


ok so its a little harder for the ninja to keep up but with the above examlpe i am sure he can AC wise

[JaronK]

A Mithril Breastplate (which is also by definition masterwork) has a Max Dex bonus of 5 and 0 Armor check penalty.

-1 Penalty. The Masterwork bonus doesn't stack. You also can't use Dastanas, which are a really cheap way to boost AC for light armoured classes, with a Breastplate.

And by the way, remember that the rogue could just get a Monk's Belt if he really wanted for +1AC and Wis to AC... he just wouldn't want to, since the AC bonus from wearing armour is better.

JaronK

[Matthew]

In real life, most Ninjas from Japan were actually Samurai, and the most effective ninjas were ones that looked perfectly harmless. Many non-samurai ninja disguised themselves as traveling merchants, and had tools that could be used either as tools of their trade, or as weapons, thus allowing them to have weapons far closer to hand when speaking with their target than most others would have been. The less a ninja appears to be a ninja, the more of a ninja he truly is.

Eh? I wouldn't mind some evidence to back up some of these claims.

[Josh Inno]

Evidence, I do not have. However I did some research for a ninja character I played once, and if I run across the material again I might link it.

[Matthew]

It would be interesting, as I have never before heard the claim that most Ninja were Samurai before.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Crazedloon, some links you might find interesting. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling), and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar).

[Malek]

IMO the problem is that you all optimize with combat in mind - which should NOT be ninja's main focus. Ninja's strenght is his ability to get anywhere he want's - thanks to superior climbing/jumping capabilities (just remember to take Athletic Acrobat from RotW to use Dex instead Str for those skills - which cures MAD a bit) and stealth capabilities (Ghost step - also remember that at higher level it can turn you ethereal instead invisible which : a)further increases capabilitiest to get to unavailable places and is an argument againts "ghost step is useless later because everything sees invisible"). Problems with AC? Buy Bracers of Armor. Too low Ki? Enduring Ki and Extra Ki pool will give you 4 extra uses.

[Zincorium]

IMO the problem is that you all optimize with combat in mind - which should NOT be ninja's main focus. Ninja's strenght is his ability to get anywhere he want's - thanks to superior climbing/jumping capabilities (just remember to take Athletic Acrobat from RotW to use Dex instead Str for those skills - which cures MAD a bit) and stealth capabilities (Ghost step - also remember that at higher level it can turn you ethereal instead invisible which : a)further increases capabilitiest to get to unavailable places and is an argument againts "ghost step is useless later because everything sees invisible"). Problems with AC? Buy Bracers of Armor. Too low Ki? Enduring Ki and Extra Ki pool will give you 4 extra uses.

Well, the problem with the things that the Ninja is good at has already been brought up and addressed, namely that mobility above and beyond what the armored, non-spellcasters are capable of and stealth in general are not going to be usable when in the company of most parties.

The thing I've learned from years of playing is that you never go off alone. It's like a horror movie. The thing is that a ninja cannot go solo and have a hope of defeating baddies that are a legitimate challenge for the entire party. They don't have the hit points, they don't have the magical artillery at their fingertips that a wizard or sorceror does (UMD is a partial substitute, but it's nowhere near a replacement for a full caster at your side), and they don't have the armor class.

Generally, to survive a ninja is going to have to remain close enough to the rest of the party that they can move very rapidly back to the 'safe zone' afforded by the casters and meat shields. This is unfortunately not where a ninja's abilities really shine.

Ghost step, taken by itself, is awesome, but it's the only way a ninja is going to get sudden strike damage against opponents after the first round of combat, and that pile of d6s only looks big until you compare it to what the other characters are doing. The argument that a rogue will die because they go into melee combat is kind of fallacious, if you're within sneak attack/sudden strike distance and you present a threat, the monster is going to skip over and smack you. I can only think of a few opponents that have a movement speed of 15' or less, so sneak attack distance is within charge range of most critters unless you have good 'ol fighter grinning stupidly in one of those squares between you and it (I'm excluding cover from this because it's dang hard to throw knives through hard cover).

[crazedloon]

Ghost step, taken by itself, is awesome, but it's the only way a ninja is going to get sudden strike damage against opponents after the first round of combat, and that pile of d6s only looks big until you compare it to what the other characters are doing. The argument that a rogue will die because they go into melee combat is kind of fallacious, if you're within sneak attack/sudden strike distance and you present a threat, the monster is going to skip over and smack you. I can only think of a few opponents that have a movement speed of 15' or less, so sneak attack distance is within charge range of most critters unless you have good 'ol fighter grinning stupidly in one of those squares between you and it (I'm excluding cover from this because it's dang hard to throw knives through hard cover).

Ive given up on this argument only becuase i know im not going to get very far. I still believe that the ninja is not a bad clase and is very fun to play but i am willing to admit that in some cases they are worse then a rogue (i.e. fighting a demon like i had to do yesterday :smallfurious: )

however on this one not i will have to speak yes you are in charge range but they only get 1 attack on a charge (unless they have some fun feats/abilitys) and you can easyly ki-dodge that 1 attack something that a rogue can not do :smallwink:


Crazedloon, some links you might find interesting. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling), and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar).

dont make fun of the idiot he cries himself to sleep every night.

(yes i was talking in third person)

[Noneoyabizzness]

the fixes
1)"just use rogues for the shinobi" its the duh answer
2)"just use swordsages" a little more costly in a monetary sense, but it does give that quasimystical feel.
3) "make the ki pool per encounter instead of per day." this answer does more for the class itself. looking at the ToB maneuvers and the factotum class, it makes sense. if a person can only be invisible for a few rounds at a time (or as ethereal) it is more functional than a few rounds per day.

basic idea: kipool= wis+1/2 ninja level. at 20th level maxed and pumped 22 ki points to spend per encounter. thats a lot, I'll grant slight changes to hgih level powers may need to be applied.
a) improved ki dodge costs 3 points, normal ki dodge still available
b)ghostwalk no longer ki based but a daily alocation (ninjalvl/5)
c)kivasion! improved evasion at the cost of 2 ki points at 16 as a swift action.
d)ki based technique feats. bardic music has it, sneak attack has it, it will offer a little mroe flavor and individuality to the individual.

the ninja iosn't that bad, it's jsut not good either

[Umbral_Arcanist]

All i can contribute to this discussion (as number crunching isn't my thing) is my own expierience playing a 2nd level halfling ninja. This was way back when the class first came out in Dragon. In the campaign the party was sent to a palace for diplomatic mission. Now, my ninja decided that the night before negotiations were to commence i was going to snoop around a bit.

Since i was a halfling my stealthy bonuses were pretty good and i was able to, with decent rolling, find some info out, nothing earth-shattering, but interesting. Unfortunately, at one point i flubbed a MS check and a guard heard me. Since i was concealed the DM gave me one round to act, i chose to ghost step invisible and then "run" away, this time my MS check was nice and high (also i think the guard rolled poorly) and i got away.

So my verdict was while as a rogue i could not have gone invisible, but i might have had to social skills to bluff my way out. So two different approaches. I just see the ninja as a more speicalized rogue.

[ImperiousLeader]

I just see the ninja as a more speicalized rogue.

Which is what they are, in a D&D sense. While I agree that Ninja's aren't quite as powerful as their Rogue bretheren, they do have their advantages. They're gonna be better scouts, as their WIS scores aid their Spot, Listen and Sense Motive checks. They're less likely to fail a Will save, remember that an unempty ki pool offers a bonus to Will Saves.

As for dealing Sudden Strike, a good way is to take "Deadeye Shot", from Player's Handbook II, which allows the Ninja to ready a ranged attack, so that when an ally hits the enemy in melee, the enemy is flatfooted against the ninja's attack.

[Rakshasa]

well, from my own experiance. i played a ninja, and by level 16, with my stat bonuses alone, i was effectively wearing two suits of full plate, but thats beside the point, the whole concept of a ninja is to -not get hit- not simply through ac, but to never give your opponent the ability to hit you, using the ghost step is a swift action, so in the suprise round, you act, charge in, smack the baddie with a decent sized melee weapon as a charge, call a shot for the damage effect, and then, poof, your gone, next turn comes, and you step to the side as a free action, still incisible, and cleave again, this time you can canish and move away. take the feats quickdraw and flick of the wrist, you catch em flat footed when you quickdraw a weapon, add nereph charge and you catch em flat footed for another charge attack, thats *thinks* with a average wis mod of 4, at level say 6, 7 rounds of invis for pop up attacks, plus the two from feats, along with a well laid trap, and the ninja can sit through the whole encounter and the baddie, unless it can see invis, which at that level is unlikely, is FUBAR for damm near the whole fight, add in well built support, and the ninja is a good substitute for a rouge, if there is a rouge already, the rouge can do his SA thing, and the ninja does his, the creatures fall all the faster.

also, ninja's perform perfectly well at higher levels in enclosed spaces, what with the ability to turn ethereal, those pesky narrow corridors are no longer very pesky, the ability to use ghost touch effect lets you strike from eathereal, effectivly attacking out of the wall, hello flat footed.

the ninja was made along the same idea as the scout, the scout is a rouge ranger mix, where the ninja is made to be an assassin. and anyone who thinks a rouge can kill a mark better, should look into what happens to magic items in an antimagic field, the rouges ring of greater invis, along with all his magical items, become useless, where a ninja is still able to vanish, and his weapon might not be magical, but a dagger shoved in the right place doesnt need to be.

[Droodle]

I do agree that the Ninja is a little weak. It's like they took the Rogue and Monk, combined them, and made them suck.To be fair, the Monk sucked already.

[Xuincherguixe]

Seems to me that really they should have just given the Ninja spell casting, over ki powers. Ki is close enough to magic anyways really.

The problem with the archetypal Ninja is that they're "awesome at everything", to the point it's kind of stupid. Great at sneaking around, Great at fighting. And then they've also got strange magical powers. Eh, I guess just as that it's not TOO bad. Maybe one way of doing a Ninja is as a Prestige Class that gets sneak attack, and spell casting. Those other 10 levels gives you room for what exactly your Ninja focuses on. Be it, sneaking, spell casting, or fighting.

Not sure which if any arcane classes fit Ninja the best. Seems to me though that it would have to advance something, so you can specialize your Ninja, thus being reasonably good at spell casting.


Sure you can just Multiclass and call yourself a Ninja, but multi classing often doesn't lead to very effective characters. Unless you're playing the Mook sort of Ninja that doesn't work.

Oh yeah, and for the historical accurists out there, mythical Ninja fit in a mythical world. Err, debatable. But really you wouldn't want accurate Ninja in a European flavored setting either

[AtomicKitKat]

Definition of a Ninja to me: Slips in, slits your throat, slips out.

Dastanas are cheesy("An Armour bonus to AC that stacks with your Armour's Armour bonus to AC? WHAT THE HELL?" <<Actual quote, possibly mangled). Plus you probably just blew a ton of money on that twinked out armour with the DR and whatnot.

[AslanCross]

Maybe one way of doing a Ninja is as a Prestige Class that gets sneak attack, and spell casting.

Assassin. (If your toon is evil, might as well)

[Xuincherguixe]

Yeah. Assassin's do make reasonable Ninja. Especially if you relax that alignment restriction. Still, their spell list isn't terribly impressive, and it's fairly limited. You also can't really improve those spells much after you're done with Assassin.

For what it's worth, my venture into surrealism that was the RCMP Ninja class was mostly just an assassin with a few differences. Like having a super diplomacy power.

Yeah. I'm an odd little man.

[Hurlbut]

Dastanas are cheesy("An Armour bonus to AC that stacks with your Armour's Armour bonus to AC? WHAT THE HELL?" <<Actual quote, possibly mangled). Plus you probably just blew a ton of money on that twinked out armour with the DR and whatnot.I dunno, I think of them as buckler shield without actually needing to wielding one. Either you wear dastanas or you wield the shield. (it was listed in the shield section on the table)

[AtomicKitKat]

I dunno, I think of them as buckler shield without actually needing to wielding one. Either you wear dastanas or you wield the shield. (it was listed in the shield section on the table)

Well sure, but then they should have been giving a Shield bonus to AC. Shoddy editing, IMO. That and I vaguely recall reading that Dastanas were essentially just part of your main body armour anyway(In the same way that you have Pauldrons, Greaves, a Breasplate, a Gorget, etc..)

[Tengu]

Aren't dastanas from a 3.0 book, a third party book, or a 3.0 third party book?

[skullyfrost]

I just got done playing a ninja/spell thief who had an unually high tolerance to the drink. It was a blast. She was stealthy but always had the upper hand in battle. She hardly ever went into melee. Basically she stood back with her disingrate arrows and kill everything. When those didn't work she would go invisible and get them with her 10d6 sneak attack. She also went from CG to CE. She was kind of annoying but always useful to have around when ever the party needed trap fodder. Except that there has only been three traps that have kicked her butt. (and thats because of rolls of 1) I think ninja are great. Most people use the thief acrobat in the same manor anyway, this just puts a name to it and with the spell thief on top of it makes it more fun.

[Moff Chumley]

To respond to the original question, I don't play ninja as writen, so much as, "A figure appears before you, and before you can act, shoves a knife in your face." Or something along those lines. Being a DM is fun. :smallamused:

[Matthew]

Aren't dastanas from a 3.0 book, a third party book, or a 3.0 third party book?
I think that you can find them in the 3e Oriental Adventures. There was an update in Dragon for improving its compatability with 3.5, but it can pretty much be used as is.

[DiscipleofBob]

The biggest problem with Ninja is that besides the early stuff they get and Ghost Step Ethereal, they really don't get anything good after that. My first character was a Ninja, and after I got some decent gear, I was pretty satisfied. We already had a Rogue in the party, so I had two main functions: 1) secondary fighter. 2) guy who tumbles through all the security.

As for stats, I think I ended up having STR 12 DEX 18 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 18 CHA 8 at level 12 including items. Once you include Bracers of Armor (now usable since you can't wear regular armor), Ring of Protection, and Amulet of Natural AC, AC goes through the roof and nothing could hit you if you let them.

I also took an aberrant dragonmark which allowed me to use Jump on myself once a day, so by the time I was done I could easily and consistently make a DC 50 jump check. If only I could have gotten the Leap Attack feat.

I had two levels of Fighter for bonus feats and extra BAB and 5 levels in Master Thrower. When I can throw two adamantine returning daggers as a touch attack against a flat-footed opponent nearly every round, suddenly I can do a decent amount of damage. I used strong poisons at early levels, and eventually got a Cloak of Arachnida made into a ninja gi and a Cloak of the Bat as a cloak. So now I could Spider Climb at will, fly for 15 minutes a day, and consistently meet a DC50 Jump check. I could turn invisible at will and deal out enough damage to be the secondary fighter.

Yea, you have to multiclass and get the right gear to do it right, but the Ninja can be fun. If you aren't planning on going into Master Thrower or Invisible Blade, you could take the first couple levels in Ninja for Ghost Step and the Wisdom bonus to AC before multiclassing to Rogue for better skill points and the rest of that stuff. Being able to go invisible at will makes Sneak Attack so much better.

[Wraithy]

When I played a ninja I whent for a greatsword user. took jack of all trades because I didn't want to waste skill points on knowledge (all cross-class for ninjas). during battles I would go invisible and zip around killing in one hit. the mechanics worked perfectly, but it was a strong silent type so I retired it out of boredome (such a character allways is).
give ninjas a chance, they will give you a swift death for it

[Hurlbut]

Well sure, but then they should have been giving a Shield bonus to AC. Shoddy editing, IMO. That and I vaguely recall reading that Dastanas were essentially just part of your main body armour anyway(In the same way that you have Pauldrons, Greaves, a Breasplate, a Gorget, etc..)
Only for Padding, leather, and chain shirt.


When I played a ninja I whent for a greatsword user. took jack of all trades because I didn't want to waste skill points on knowledge (all cross-class for ninjas). during battles I would go invisible and zip around killing in one hit.
Now why does that remind me of a certain character in Naruto?

[Aurion]

I'd be interested to know the stats and feats you took for that build wraithy

[Xuincherguixe]

Naruto has so many characters, it would be hard to find a character that doesn't remind you of at least one of them.

[Paragon Badger]

Try looking at the Ninja Spy class from the Oriental Adventures book, the Complete Adventurer Ninja pales in comparison.

Unfortunately, the Ninja Spy is a prestige class, available at level 6 if you optimize your build.

As for me, personally, if I was going to rebuild the Ninja classes.

I would make them primarily status inflicting, with the standard stealthy and quick bonuses. Basically, they would wear down a superior enemy with status effects before going in for the kill.

Poison, immobilization, deafening, silencing, ect.

Historically, Ninjas never really fought anyone. Shuriken were not intended to be killing weapons, but merely things to fling at an enemy and force him to block/slow down his pursuit. Plus, they had huge intimidate/bluff checks. ;-)

Ninjas were all about bluffing.

[Matthew]

Historically, Ninjas never really fought anyone. Shuriken were not intended to be killing weapons, but merely things to fling at an enemy and force him to block/slow down his pursuit. Plus, they had huge intimidate/bluff checks. ;-)

Ninjas were all about bluffing.

Whenever anybody mentions 'Historically' and 'Ninja' in the same sentence, I tend to get sceptical.

[Hurlbut]

Naruto has so many characters, it would be hard to find a character that doesn't remind you of at least one of them.
Actually I was refering to Zabuza Momochi who used a large sword.

[Xefas]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but so long as your DM is okay with retooling the visuals/fluff of the Warlock class, they make an okay ninja. They can turn invisible at will, throw around infinite smoke screens, wall-run, leave after-images while teleporting around, and can make up for their lack of skill points with things like Beguiling Influence, Leaps and Bounds, or Baleful Utterance (good for breaking locks, traps, doors, and such).

Their Eldritch Blast you could make into any number of things. Throwing around really really good shuriken could be one. All it is is a ranged touch attack that does Xd6 damage, right? -could be anything visual-wise.

Just my 2 cents =)