Speculation: Finding uses for TWF?

[Miles Invictus]

It's common knowledge that a 2HF, Power Attacking juggernaut is a more reliable damage dealer than someone who specializes in TWF. I'm not contesting that. I am, however, trying to think of TWF-focused builds that are useful in battle. Here's what I came up with:

Class: Whatever lets you get the basic TWF feats. Probably Ranger with TWF style or Fighter with TWF chain.
Feats: EWP (whip), Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Oversized TWF.
Equipment: Whip (off-hand), anything else (primary).

The basic concept is pretty simple. A whip can reach out to 15 feet, and has a +2 to disarm checks. Improved Disarm increases this to +6 and prevents a retaliatory disarm. Oversized TWF allows you to lash out with the whip and attack normally without a crippling penalty.

Your plan, therefore, is to close with enemies and beat the crap out of them with your primary weapon, while using your off-hand attacks to disarm any enemies within range.

I see a few problems: The first of these is the heavy feat expenditure. The second, more serious problem, is that using a whip provokes attacks of opportunity.

That said, I think this is a decent use for TWF -- you can full-attack adjacent enemies, and simultaneously disarm a number of targets within 15 feet. Picking up an item provokes attacks of opportunity and counts as a move action, so the squishier party members won't get rushed quite as badly, and your meatier allies might be able to get in a few extra kicks unopposed.

Thoughts?

[skaven13]

When my group was playing, one of the characters played a fighter/rogue/thief-acrobat that focused on the quarterstaff. She had the TWF chain, as well as weapon focus/weapon specialization. In that game, she would take advantage of my character using improved invisibility and would usually dish out 12d6 total on her three attacks with sneak attack damage. She didn't play the character to the full potential, such as taking up a flanking position against opponents (something she has changed in the game I run, to my chagrin :smallwink:). But it was a very successful build.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

TWF'ers IMO are not meant to be the main damage dealer. True that they may or may not deal more damage than a 2HF, but that is not really the point, is it? TWF'fing can be an awesome thing to role play (as opposed to roll play).

On the other hand, take an Improved Feint TWF'ing rogue with Robilar's Gambit and Two Weapon Pounce, try to get a 10' reach (NO spiked chain!) and some nice weapons... and then you are dealing so much wicked damage. The funny part is getting into Epic levels, and you can take the Sneak Attack of Opportunity feat. =_)

[Kantolin]

Weapons of wounding were made for two-weapon fighters.

[Indon]

Skaven, that's funny, since my next meleer I plan on making a rogue/fighter who will take both power attack and the first couple TWF feats. He takes a flanking position and opens up for good sneak attack damage. He can't flank or sneak attack for some reason, he'll power attack.

He'll of course use a quarterstaff to capitalize on the ability to swap between TWF'ing and 2-handed power attacking (without having to spend an exotic weapon proficiency feat, that is).

[Xilehxt]

Two weapon fighting would be most useful when each hit does something significant, such as ability score damage, energy drain, or even sneak attack. Anything with large crippling or damage potential that is not dependent on strength would be better off in TWF.

Of course, there is still a down side, which is that two weapons are more expensive.

[Fax Celestis]

TWF/Wandstrike is entertaining.

[Arceliar]

TWF + Oversized TWF (CAdv)+ Power Attack + Leap Attack (CAdv)+ Battle Jump (UE)+ Leap of the Heavens (PHB2)+ Two Weapon Rend (PHB2) + Shock Trooper (CWar) + Dual Strike (CAdv)

That's a lot of feats to get, and I'm sure there's prereqs in there to get too (Probably Improved Two Weapon Fighting, but I can't remember off the top of my head). That ought to let you use a power-attackable weapon in both hands, get 2x the bonus damage on power attack on charges where you jump, use your AC instead of attack bonus for power attack on charges, do double damage on charges where you fall 5ft, attack with both weapons, and get a Rend attack (which are just fun).

That basically means attacking with both weapons on a charge, 2x your base attack added to damage on each weapon, + a rend which probably benefits from power attack as it is a melee weapon. Then double all that damage if you jump high enough to use Battle Jump. I think if you plan your feats right a human can do all this by 10th level, maybe 12th at most, provided you have a very impressive jump check.

At level 12, if both attacks hit (and rend is considered a 2handed weapon?) then that means you're adding an extra 192 damage to the end of that charge.

If enemies are 10ft away that's enough to at least Leap Attack. If they're 5ft away you can 5ft step and full attack. I realize it's high on cheese, but leap attack based builds are really quite effective if played correctly. (Though I've never done one TWF before).

[Jarl]

3 levels in Swashbuckler and a hefty Int Mod.

-Problem solved.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Pair TWF with Quick Draw and a large variety of charged magic weapons (I suggest daggers, as weight is more of an issue then the pitiful damage). Oh, sure, it'll be sinking a serious hole in your pocket with affording them. But hitting a guy with several spells in a row is sort of the cheapest magical abuse I can think of for a non-caster.

Bonus points for assembling your own "spellbook" like that.

[LotharBot]

Sure, your fighter with the big two-handed axe doing d12+35, or d12+55 with power attack and various other feats, is nice. But how about that rogue with TWF and holy-flaming-shocking-wounding-blah-blah-blah-enemybane weapons doing 8d6 non-sneak and 10d6 sneak attack damage with each hand, and furthermore, draining 1 CON and 2 STR with each of 6 attacks? And that's without doing anything outside of the PHB and DMG.

TWF isn't about raw base+STR damage. It's about getting a large number of bonus effects -- elemental damage, aligned damage, ability damage, sneak attack damage, weapons with spell effects, etc. Every effect in the game that adds damage dice to weapons is twice as effective if you're twoweaponing. That's the main thing to keep in mind with your TWF builds.

[Rigeld2]

Sure, your fighter with the big two-handed axe doing d12+35, or d12+55 with power attack and various other feats, is nice. But how about that rogue with TWF and holy-flaming-shocking-wounding-blah-blah-blah-enemybane weapons doing 8d6 non-sneak and 10d6 sneak attack damage with each hand, and furthermore, draining 1 CON and 2 STR with each of 6 attacks? And that's without doing anything outside of the PHB and DMG.
The Fighter has access to the exact same "holy-flaming-shocking-wounding-blah-blah-blah-enemybane weapons" which means he will still usually outdamage, and do similar effects.

[skaven13]

Skaven, that's funny, since my next meleer I plan on making a rogue/fighter who will take both power attack and the first couple TWF feats. He takes a flanking position and opens up for good sneak attack damage. He can't flank or sneak attack for some reason, he'll power attack.

He'll of course use a quarterstaff to capitalize on the ability to swap between TWF'ing and 2-handed power attacking (without having to spend an exotic weapon proficiency feat, that is).

Yeah, I used to cast improved invis on her, tell her to "go have some fun", and smile at the dm for the walking fireball I had just unleashed.

[Khantalas]

Carry two whips. Take levels in lasher. Enjoy the lashing whipping fun.

We need EmeraldRose to back that up.

[JellyPooga]

Tee hee. I like TWF. Combined with Oversized TWF and Bard levels it makes for a fun character. Much like above mentioned 'Whip and Hand weapon' character, you make a '2 whips, 2 crossbows, 2 rapiers' character (with option of rapier).

TWF, Oversized TWF, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Quick Draw + anything else (but those are the essentials).

You start by dual wielding light crossbows until they get within 15'. Then you drop those and pull out two whips and disarm/trip them until they finally manage to get close enough to attack you (at which point they are really pissed). Drop those and draw two rapiers and finish them off (they won't be trying to do any fancy stuff, 'cos all this time you've been taunting them, you've hit them a couple of times with the crossbows, you've been tripping them and making them drop their weapons...all they want to do by this time is smash your face in...you just feint to one side and run them through...twice).

If I were a DM and someone did this, I would certainly not have the NPC's trying to flank, use Combat Expertise, Sneak Attack or (in some cases) Ranged weapons or Spells. At best they'll be using Power Attack (probably at max.). I don't know if there is any rules for taunting, but that's a different matter.

Obviously, this would all be possible with 1 whip, 1 crossbow and 1 rapier...but that wouldn't look as cool :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

Rogue 1/Fighter variant 1/Swashbuckler 18. Use Complete Scoundrel and Complete Warrior feats. You deal 10d6 Sneak Attack on each hit, and have +19 BAB to use with Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper.

Also, remember that Fear effects stack. Disciple of the Eye and Avenging Executioner both cause Fear effects each time you hit them, and there are various Fear related feats and magic items that do something similar. So extra hits are more valuable then extra damage sometimes.

As others have mentioned, a TWF with Wounding weapons can usually kill most enemies in 2-4 turns. This is horribly sub-optimal most of the time. But when you're fighting a BBEG with a ton of Hit Dice, its usually much more effective.

[Kantolin]

Also, a ranger can get some mileage out of two weapon fighting provided you're fighting a lot of your favored enemy. Extra damage 'per hit'...

Also, certain spells simply target 'one weapon' making no additional clause for a double-weapon. So those spells with a double weapon mean you can get essentially twice the bonus per spell.

[LotharBot]

The Fighter has access to the exact same "holy-flaming-shocking-wounding-blah-blah-blah-enemybane weapons"

True, but beside the point. If he's only got one weapon, he's only getting a chance at using the bonus dice 3 or 4 times in a round (3-4 attacks.) If he's twoweaponing, he gets 6-8 chances at using those bonus dice. And fighters don't get +10d6 sneak attack or crippling strike (2 points strength drain).

Point being, if something adds +xd6 damage or does some special type of damage or effect, it's twice as useful if you're twoweaponing, because you get to use it twice as much.

A pixie rogue's base damage might be d3-1 for her shortswords, but d3-1 + 18d6 + 2 STRdrain + 1 CONdrain up to six times per round is an awful lot of damage. At the same level, your fighter/barbarian with a two-handed weapon might be doing d12+35+6d6 four times per round.

I'm not arguing the rogue is better than the fighter or anything of the sort. After all, you're not always going to get to use those bonus dice, and you're much more fragile in combat. But the point is, if you get a lot of bonus damage dice, twoweaponing is a really good idea. (And if you do some sort of rog1/ftr1/swash18 combo, you get an awful lot of bonus dice, which means TWF is a good choice for you.)

[Kantolin]

Incidentally, I never understood why (say) flaming was better for a two-weaponer than, say, a +1.

I mean... flaming is useful and all, but the +1 helps your to-hit, which is comparably poor as a two-weaponer (especially if you're not a Ranger, as then you don't get the TWF feats for free and thus need a high dexterity), and it also adds to each additional swing you get, making that swing more accurate so you have a greater chance of doing other things.

Whiffing a half dozen times isn't particularly effective.

Of course, wounding and spell storage are nice - you won't be able to match the damage output of the party's power attacking fighter (even as the sneaky rogue), but dealing quantities of constitution damage and unloading multiple spells per round is useful. Force several saves!

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Exactly. Plus, if you spell store enough, you can have plenty of contingency plans.

"Hit! Flesh to stone!"
"Sorry, I have no flesh."
"Oh, I see. Finger of Death?"
"Yeah, that'll do it."
"Kay. Save or die."

[Josh Inno]

Sorry for asking a probably redundant question... but can feint actually be made to be a free action? If not, you can't feint and TWF both, can you?

[Fax Celestis]

Sorry for asking a probably redundant question... but can feint actually be made to be a free action? If not, you can't feint and TWF both, can you?

Feinting is a move action that becomes a swift action with Imp. Feint. You can TWF both ways, you just have to be stationary with the first.

[Ryuuk]

There's also the Invisible Blade and Beguiler. Both of them let you feint as a swift action. So as long as you're already in melee, you can feint and follow with a full attack on the same turn. I'm pretty sure it only counts for the first attack though.

[Avicenex]

SRD says:

Benefit

You can make a Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) check to feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) in combat as a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions).
Normal

Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) in combat is a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions).
Feinting is a standard action normally, and Improved Feint makes it a move action. That's why the Invisible Blade (and Beguiler apparently) is so good--the ability to feint as a free action is awesome for sneak attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

Not free, SWIFT.

[Truwar]

Psychic Warrior with Oversized TWF, Three Mountains, Psionic Lion’s Charge, and a pair of morningstars. Your enemies are going to be spending a LOT of time nauseated and unable to fight back.

[Khantalas]

Not free, SWIFT.

I thought it was a special free action that could be used once per round without eating up your swift / immediate action for the round.

[Fax Celestis]

I thought it was a special free action that could be used once per round without eating up your swift / immediate action for the round.

As far as I'm aware, errata'd.