Does the Lightning Mace feat (CW) work with two +1 aptitude keen kukris (ToB)?

[realbombchu]

The topic kind of says it all. For those of you who don't know, Lightning Mace grants you a free attack whenever you use two light maces and threaten a critical. It is also unlimited as long as you keep rolling threats. Or at least it's unlimited in Complete Warrior. I don't know if they changed it.

Aptitude weapons let you use one weapon in place of another for the purpose of feats. Keen kukris have a better threat range than light maces. I'm wondering if I could combine all this to increase the odds of free attacks. All of this is for a Two-Weapon Fighting rogue, of course, so add sneak attack damage too.

I know (if this works) I could take it even further and combine it with Dervish to use scimitars instead, but I think two kukris are good enough.

Does this work? Does Lightning Mace stack with haste or the speed weapon enhancement? Thanks for your help.

[Swaoeaeieu]

You found one of the many ways people make crit-fishing build. Congrats!
But what i read about this particular combo is that it all depends on how you read the aptitude enchant. It could work fine, or the enchant only works for feats like weapon focus. Ask your DM is the best advice i can give on this particular combo.

[John Longarrow]

At my table this wouldn't work. I go by what the feat says it does, which applies only when using two light maces. I think most players consider this good as it avoids me having monsters use it to get nasty stacked damage against them.

[realbombchu]

it avoids me having monsters use it to get nasty stacked damage against them.

Yeah, that's the side of these tactics you never seem to hear about. What goes around comes around, I guess.

While the feat does say light maces, I thought that was the point of the aptitude enhancement. I mean, yeah, I could be totally wrong, but I thought it let whatever weapon stand in for the given one regardless. I see what you both are saying about how you read it, though.

[John Longarrow]

realbombchu,
The reason I go with the fluff for some of these special feast is because of, IIRC, Sword and Torch. If using a torch as an improvised weapon in your off hand you can set people on fire.
If you don't go by a fairly strick reading then you could use a dagger in your off hand and still set people on fire. :elan:

[torrasque666]

"While fighting with a one-handed melee weapon and holding a lit torch in the other hand, you can make a special attack as a full-round action. Attack once with your melee weapon. If the attack hits, you also sweep your torch across your foe's eyes, dealing ld6 points of fire damage and dazzling him for 1d4 rounds. You can also use this feat while wielding a lit lantern, a sunrod, or an everburning torch in your off hand, although items that do not give off heat do not deal fire damage."

I don't exactly see how this really leaves room for error. It seems pretty clean cut.

[OldTrees1]

A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like, can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality.

Aptitude only works for feats that affect "a particular type of weapon". DMs can easily read this as feats that affect a single type of weapon. This would exclude Tactical feats like Three Mountain (3 types of weapon) or High Sword, Low Axe (2 types of weapon simultaneously used).

Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization are the feats used to define the kind of feat that Aptitude effects (see ", or the like"). DMs can easily read that valid feats must follow the "select a type of weapon" trend seen in the 3 example feats.

So while it is possible to interpret it in a way that allows Lightning Kukris, it is easier for DMs to interpret it as not allowing such.

[Deadline]

My favorite example of using aptitude weapons with the Lightning Maces feat is from one of the old Tests of Spite. Some poor fool had a pair of Aptitude pistols (that could reload for free) that he used with this combo. His opponent won initiative and manifested Death Urge on him, and he failed his save. He promptly did thousands of damage to himself and died.

It was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

It is not really different than a Save or Die from a wizard, and requires a bit more investmen, and typically, close range which is not always doable from the melee player. If you're getting into range of BBEG's however and pulling off a crit finsihing build, expect to be up against Celerity and other action economy breakers.

[John Longarrow]

torrasque666

You've posted it, and I've still heard people say they should be able to do it because they are a WarBlade. Same Weapon Aptitude to.

[Snowbluff]

My favorite example of using aptitude weapons with the Lightning Maces feat is from one of the old Tests of Spite. Some poor fool had a pair of Aptitude pistols (that could reload for free) that he used with this combo. His opponent won initiative and manifested Death Urge on him, and he failed his save. He promptly did thousands of damage to himself and died.

It was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:
I remember that. Didn't he end up breaking a record, and the only reason he stopped is because he exhausted his ammo? :smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

torrasque666

You've posted it, and I've still heard people say they should be able to do it because they are a WarBlade. Same Weapon Aptitude to.

Weapon Aptitude is not quite the same as an Aptitude Weapon.

A weapon with the Aptitude enhancement counts as the appropriate weapon for a weapon-specific feat. For example, Lightning Mace applies "while using a light mace in each hand," and as such any Aptitude weapon would count as a light mace for purposes of that feat.

Weapon Aptitude, the Warblade ability, works in reverse. Instead of styling your weapons to fit your feats, it allows you to adjust your feats to fit your weapons. This works fine for things like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, which can be applied to any number of weapons and thus switched from one applicable weapon to another; this doesn't work nearly as well for a feat like Lightning Mace, which is specific to light maces. You could make the argument that Light Mace should change the same way that Weapon Focus would, but it's a tougher sell.

[Coidzor]

At my table this wouldn't work. I go by what the feat says it does, which applies only when using two light maces. I think most players consider this good as it avoids me having monsters use it to get nasty stacked damage against them.

If you'd throw +X aptitude weapons at your party ad nauseum, there's some other issues going on there. :smallconfused: