Combining potions

[lytokk]

I remember playing in a 3.5 Eberron game, where a particularly chaotic shifter monk decided to take every potion he had, combine them all into 1 container, and drink them during a combat. The DM used some table he had found for combining multiple potions. I think it might have been a second edition table.

My question is there actually a ruling for this in 3.5? Say a good reason to not mix a bunch of potions together to get a good number of buffs on round 1 in combat.

[John Longarrow]

Hehehehheheheee...

I remember the table in the DM's guide from 2nd... REALLY FUN things happen.

Permanent potion is one.
Blowing up is another.

Good times... Goooood times.

[lytokk]

End result I remember being a cloud that caused everyone in the area to make a few DC20 fortitude saves or die. I remember the party wizard rolling really well, and my paladin rolling a 1. I was not happy. Course I had a strange power to roll back time 1 round once a week. Stopped it from going off, took the potion, and being the last in the chain to Dimension door out, tossed it down a Balor's throat.

[Sir Chuckles]

The only thing I could find was an April Fools (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b) article.

I did this once with a potion of Fly and a theoretical potion of Permanency. My DM was pissed.
But, yes, it was a thing in 1e and 2e, but not in 3e.

[Zombimode]

I remember playing in a 3.5 Eberron game, where a particularly chaotic shifter monk decided to take every potion he had, combine them all into 1 container, and drink them during a combat. The DM used some table he had found for combining multiple potions. I think it might have been a second edition table.

My question is there actually a ruling for this in 3.5? Say a good reason to not mix a bunch of potions together to get a good number of buffs on round 1 in combat.

What will happen in this situation is the DM's call. One thing is certain: the liquid from the various combined potions isn't a potion. It is a new object with no predefined properties.

Personally, I would rule it to have no immediate effect on the imbiber. Now you might say "but shouldn't clever ideas be rewarded?". Well, yes, they should. But combining potions isn't a clever idea. To the contrary: it is extremely linear thinking. If doing so would have any kind of positive effect, it would be provided as an option by the rules. It isn't.

[ArqArturo]

1.- Combine a potion of Cure Light wounds with Empowered Harm
2.- Cast Magic Aura
3.- ...
4.- Profit!

[lunar2]

i thought this was going to be about making a potion with more than one effect (afaik, it should work normally according to item creation rules. so you can put all your low level spell buffs into one potion, and buff really quickly).

[Khedrac]

In 1st Ed/2nd Ed potions were fairly special - and you had the tables for being under the effect of more than one potion at a time.

In 3rd/3.5 ed potion are just a "spell in a bottle" - and they follow pretty much all the rules for the spells they duplicate - hence no combining table.

Now the case posted is special - because they mixed them up outside the body, but there is no multiple potions table in 3.5 for a reason - and that's because they totally changed how potions work.

[lytokk]

So, being there's no rules against it, whats to stop players from putting 5 potions (1oz apiece) into a flask (5oz) and drinking that before battle to get all their buffs in 1 spot? With the exception of the rule that it takes a standard action (or move, forget) to imbibe a potion? Since there are no real rules as to how long it takes to down a flask.

[Diarmuid]

Creating a potion is a magical process that results in a single dose of a special liquid in a single container being enchanted to produce a result when imbibed.

There are no rules saying that combining multiple potions in a larger container is possible, but there is also nothing saying that it doesnt have negative effect. Your "no rule against it" is just as valid using reversed logic. Without any precedence, this is at best "DM Prerogative".

[infomatic]

With the exception of the rule that it takes a standard action (or move, forget) to imbibe a potion? Since there are no real rules as to how long it takes to down a flask.

There's your rule, right there -- it's a standard action to drink a potion. Potions come in 1-ounce portions, the entirety of which must be imbibed. Mixing five potions into one big jug isn't 1 potion -- it's five -- and would take five standard actions to imbibe the whole thing.

[lunar2]

which is why you create one potion from 5 spells, instead. it's still a one ounce potion that can be drunk in one standard action, but it gives you your entire suite of combat buffs in the first round, or even the surprise round, if you're prepared for it.

[Zombimode]

which is why you create one potion from 5 spells, instead. it's still a one ounce potion that can be drunk in one standard action, but it gives you your entire suite of combat buffs in the first round, or even the surprise round, if you're prepared for it.

How do you do that? The creation rules for potion mention "the spell" as in singular.

[lunar2]

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities
that don’t take up space on a character’s body (see Magic Items on the
Body, page 214), use the following formula: Calculate the price of the
single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most
costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. (The many
spell-like powers of a staff of power are a good example of multiple simi-
lar abilities).

so yeah, the standard potion has one spell in it, but there are rules for combining magical effects. potions with multiple spells in them are, by raw, cheaper than multiple potions taken individually. although as a DM, i'd instead make it more expensive, for the action economy abuse. but there's no good reason not to allow it at all.

[Fiery Diamond]

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities
that don’t take up space on a character’s body (see Magic Items on the
Body, page 214), use the following formula: Calculate the price of the
single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most
costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. (The many
spell-like powers of a staff of power are a good example of multiple simi-
lar abilities).

so yeah, the standard potion has one spell in it, but there are rules for combining magical effects. potions with multiple spells in them are, by raw, cheaper than multiple potions taken individually. although as a DM, i'd instead make it more expensive, for the action economy abuse. but there's no good reason not to allow it at all.

Hm... Interesting thought. How would you price it? Consider:

Cure Light Wounds x1 Potion (2-9 HP, avg 5.5): 50GP
Cure Moderate Wounds x1 Potion (5-19 HP, avg 12): 300GP
Cure Serious Wounds x1 Potion (8-29 HP, avg 18.5): 750GP

Combo Potions (at lowest CL):
Cure Light Wounds x2 Potion (4-18 HP, avg 11)
Cure Light Wounds x3 Potion (6-27 HP, avg 16.5)
Cure Light Wounds x4 Potion (8-36 HP, avg 22)
Cure Moderate Wounds x2 Potion (10-38 HP, avg 24)
CMW x1 + CLW x1 (7-28 [17.5] if you're allowed to use multiple caster levels, 9-30 [19.5] otherwise)

Hm... Maybe restrict the potion to 3 spell levels, even if there are multiple spells, then just multiply the end price by a figure like x3 or x4. So you could stack multiple 2nd level or 3rd level spells, but you could stack a 2nd with a 1st or 3 1st levels.
CLWx2 (x3/x4): 300/400
CLWx3 (x3/x4): 450/600
CLW+CMW (x3/x4): Multiple CL- 1050/1400, Same CL- 1350/1800

Based on these numbers, maybe x3 if combining 2 spells, and x5 if combining 3 spells, allowing different caster levels for different spells.

[Afgncaap5]

I think the "multiple spells/multiple effects" thing is valid in terms of story, but I think the way the rules are written means that players can't specifically do it without DM approval (which is part of why the April Fools article lists a couple of different possible interpretations of what it's like when you drink multiple potions at once.)

I give my players the options of learning "alchemical secrets" that let them circumvent those rules for a price. If they really want their multi-potions, it's fine. It just won't be free.

[lunar2]

well, yeah. creating any custom item requires DM approval. i just don't think this is a particularly abusive use of those rules, as long as you increase the price appropriately for the action economy advantage. you're still limited to spells of 3rd level and lower.

[Andezzar]

More importantly, when you do this, the item is no longer a potion but a wondrous item and as such uses the feat and cost of wondrous items.

[lunar2]

do you have a rules quote to back that up? but even if it was a wondrous item, it still costs the same. costs are based on what the item does, not on what feat you use to make it.

[Afgncaap5]

do you have a rules quote to back that up? but even if it was a wondrous item, it still costs the same. costs are based on what the item does, not on what feat you use to make it.

The rules sort of support that by omission. We're not really given much in the way of examples of potions that deviate from the basic formula (apart from, I think, fire breath and... was there one of water breath? Maybe a couple of extra ones here and there...) "Wondrous Item" manages to be a catch-all, unfortunately.

With DM permission, though, there's nothing preventing other items from being created with Brew Potion. The various salves, ointments, and magical elixirs are all valid, in my opinion. I'd hesitate to take those items away from Craft Wondrous Item crafters, though.

[lunar2]

well, i just don't see the reason to require another feat for it, when you're still doing the same thing as with regular potions, just more of it. either way, the price is the same, because a one shot use activated spell effect is CL x SL X 50 GP, regardless of item type. if you were to enchant an arrow to cast finger of death upon hitting the target, for example, that would cost 11 x 6 x 50 = 3300 gp, even though you would be using craft arms and armor to make it.

on the other hand, i'm one of those DMs that allows potions of fireball, which are used as grenades, so maybe i'm just weird.

[lytokk]

I guess if any of my players wanted to do this I would allow it, but it would still take a day per potion effect.