PDA

View Full Version : Gamer Drama What it takes to ruin a Player.



killer_monk
2014-05-21, 11:26 AM
I'd like to start by saying this will be a rant. But I am looking for advice, because some of the things I'm going to discuss have made me question myself as both a GM, and a Player.

To start, this is going to be mostly about another player, and self professed DM, whose methods have made me wonder and worry about my own practices.

Let's start from the beginning. I played my first session of AD&D my freshman year of high school, in the year 2008. The player whom i will be discussing was the DM. And I had a friend who wahted to try at the same time. We rolled up "0 level characters".

Yes, that's right. We started with 3hp and no hit dice. Now, I didn't know this would be a problem, as I had never played before and didn't know any of the rules.

I started as a half elf. I think 14 was my best stat. My friend started as a human, his best stat was around 16.

So we're given a few inventory items. Scrolls of web, shield and i think maybe one other. And we're given 3 health potions each. No armor, no weapons, no arrows, no class. I still didn't know this would be a problem.

He starts us off in the middle of the woods. He tells us we're being hunted by 30 orcs. So we start running, and then we get to a shear cliff, 300ft to the ocean below. This cliff is triangular and we HAVE to climb down. So as soon as we start climbing down the orcs arrive. They immediately see us as start climbing down after. And some shoot bows at us. I have used all my potions by the time I reach the bottom.

When we get there several orcs have fallen off, so i go to get a bow. As soon as i reach for the bow he says the orcs get an auto hit, since theyre in an advantageous position 300ft above us. So there goes my hp.

After running for "3 days" we meet up with some elves. Im a half elf so i try to smooth it over. After being forced to give them all the equipment we managed to scrounge off the orcs we each get a magic weapon. Mine gives me the benefits of being a full elf, as well as being "magic". My friend's is a ring of regeneration AND a vampiric-like blade.

So then we get jumped by two highwaymen and my friend almost immediately dies. After barely surviving myself, he gets ressurected by his ring. Such ends my first game of D&D.

After the session he points out how we could've used the scrolls to avoid the arrows and cast Web, which we shouldve then pulled on and pulled all the orcs off the cliff side. I was a tad upset at this.

I'll post more "episodes" if anyone wants. But be warned, they actually get WORSE from this point on, and it eventually blooms into a struggle between myself and the ultimate Gary Stu.

Id like to ask if anyone else here on the forums has ever dealt with a DM/Player that was so bad/cruel/sue that is made you change the way you DMed, the way you played and even the way you handle your own characters. To this day I'm still scared that my NPCs/DMPCs are becoming a Sue or even sucking the fun out of games. It usually means i reture a lot of my characters really early, because i can't handle doing to anyone else what was done to me. Even though I always ask my players if they're having fun, I'm still worried I'm doing stuff wrong.

Another question is about if I'm just being a whiner. I don't want to needlessly complain, and I feel that I may just be being selfish or something.

Fiery Diamond
2014-05-21, 12:01 PM
So... this happened 6 years ago before you ever started DMing and was your introduction to gaming, and you just now are having it make you question your DMing traits?

Wut?

killer_monk
2014-05-21, 12:18 PM
So... this happened 6 years ago before you ever started DMing and was your introduction to gaming, and you just now are having it make you question your DMing traits?

Wut?

No, I've been questioning my traits for years. It's just that It's finally really starting to wear on me now that I started GMing my Pathfinder group again.

Amphetryon
2014-05-21, 12:19 PM
<snip>
Let's start from the beginning. I played my first session of AD&D my freshman year of high school, in the year 2008.
<snip>
Another question is about if I'm just being a whiner. I don't want to needlessly complain, and I feel that I may just be being selfish or something.
Incident took place in 2008, and cost you no real-world resources beyond time spent, or injury. I'm sorry to say the answer to your second question appears to be 'yes,' from where I sit.

Arbane
2014-05-21, 12:24 PM
I'll post more "episodes" if anyone wants. But be warned, they actually get WORSE from this point on, and it eventually blooms into a struggle between myself and the ultimate Gary Stu.

Well, I'd like to hear it.

And I'm sorry, but no matter how bad your DM's UberNPCs, he cannot be 'the ultimate Gary Stu'. That position has already been filled. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275152-What-am-I-supposed-to-do)


Id like to ask if anyone else here on the forums has ever dealt with a DM/Player that was so bad/cruel/sue that is made you change the way you DMed, the way you played and even the way you handle your own characters.

Not personally, I'm happy to say, but I've heard plenty of horror stories of 'Burn Victim' players so traumatized by bad GMs that they avoid plot-hooks like the plague, never make characters that aren't orphans, or kill all named NPCs on sight. And then there's the stuff that happens to female players' characters... *shudder*.

Also, Web does not work that way.

Scorpina
2014-05-21, 12:38 PM
At the heart of it, that story reads like the DM had a specific 'solution' in mind which - to him - was simple or even obvious, and made that the only solution he'd accept to the predicament he threw at you.

Which isn't good DMing, because being a good DM is about 70% reacting to your players and dealing with how they respond to your death traps or what have you.

But that's just my two bits.

Red Fel
2014-05-21, 12:39 PM
Id like to ask if anyone else here on the forums has ever dealt with a DM/Player that was so bad/cruel/sue that is made you change the way you DMed, the way you played and even the way you handle your own characters. To this day I'm still scared that my NPCs/DMPCs are becoming a Sue or even sucking the fun out of games. It usually means i reture a lot of my characters really early, because i can't handle doing to anyone else what was done to me. Even though I always ask my players if they're having fun, I'm still worried I'm doing stuff wrong.

It sounds like what happened here was a case of linear DMing, not a case of Gary Stu.

For clarification, let me define the terms as I'm using them. Gary Stu, in my understanding, is a character (in this context, generally a DMPC) who is always right, who always wins, who is the natural leader, who always has the solutions, and for whom the other PCs exist alternately as either cheerleaders or background noise. He is the poorly-executed DMPC taken to obscene extremes.

Linear DMing, in my experience, is a form of severe railroading where a DM proposes a scenario, and if you do things "right," you do well; if you do them in any other way, you are punished.

What you described above was less a case of Gary Stu, in that I didn't hear much about DMPCs, and more a case of linear DMing, in that the DM told you after the fact what you were "supposed" to do, and how it would have turned out better.

Let me put your mind at ease about one thing - the fact that you have remained conscious of your DMing style is a good sign. It means you are taking active steps to prevent yourself from being the kind of DM you loathe.

That said, I'd advise you not to over-analyze. If your players say they're having fun, stop. You're in the golden zone. Just keep doing what you're doing. If you want to improve, you can always experiment with new things, but if the players say they're enjoying, you need to get outside of your head and accept it as a given that you're doing it right.

Your comments suggest that you're an active self-analyzer. Let me put your mind at ease again - you're not whining, and you're not being selfish by asking these questions. Stepping back and asking how you can improve is the hallmark of a good DM. Relax. What you are doing, however, is second-guessing yourself. Some navel-gazing is good; too much is hazardous. Once you have established that you're on the right track, it's best not to over-think it.

Sometimes we need to hear that we're doing something right. If you're asking your players for input, and they're having fun; if you're learning from past mistakes, be they yours or others'; if you're constantly self-evaluating, and seeking to improve; then chances are you're doing something right. So now you've heard it. Relax.

Friv
2014-05-21, 12:40 PM
a) That doesn't sound like a very good game.
b) That doesn't sound like a very unusual game being run by a 14-year old.

killer_monk
2014-05-21, 02:09 PM
To answer a few questions.

I do not want to whine. It helps nobody, so I've please forgive me if this it what it sounds like.

I remember when that Stu thread was written. And I still think my DM's Stu was worse. I'll elaborate later and let you guys judge.

Incidentally, all my characters are orphans, no plot hooks, although I still don't kill named NPC's. I didn't realize these "signs" were even a thing?

To point something out, this example I gave was not in fact one of a Stu. This was just my first game, which is where I wanted to start my list of bad stories. I probably shouldve said that though.

I do self analyze. I've always been my own worst critic, and I can't help that. I just have to be 100% certain I'm not screwing stuff up. Because I never want to burn a player the way I was introduced to tabletop gaming.

Thanks Red Fel, it's always good to know you're not screwing stuff up.

Also, the DM would've been about 46 years old when this game took place. Don't ask why we had a 46 year old DM, that's an entirely different can of worms.

I'll write the next episode in the series when I get a chance. Continue to ask questions and I'll get back as soon as possible.

John Longarrow
2014-05-21, 03:16 PM
9 quick things...

On your previous DM
1) The DM failed to make sure you knew the rules to the game before starting the game.
2) The DM failed to understand the rules to the game.
3) The DM, as Red Fel pointed out, had "One way" this was to go and did a poor job of letting you in on the game.
4) The DM failed to give you a reasonable set of encounters.
On your DMing
5) You are looking to be a better DM, showing you are better than your previous DM.
6) Asking your players IS the best way to see if they like your game.
7) Asking your players is the best way I know to change up your game to make it more fun for the players.
On your playing
8) The more your characters back story meshes with the world, the easier it is for the DM. You should have noticed this from your own table.
9) The more connected your character is to the party, the easier it is to mesh with the party. See 8 above.

Hope this helps!

spikeof2010
2014-05-21, 03:41 PM
Do continue, I'm curious on your Sue/Stu experiences, considering I'm playing my first campaign myself.

killer_monk
2014-05-21, 04:15 PM
The second story takes place in 4e. I went and bought books after reading a bit and realizing the many rule breaking mistakes that took place in my first adventure. I didnt know about 4e being terrible though, so again, another mistake on my part.

It starts with me rolling a Dragonborn Fighter/Kensai. I still, to this day, do not entirely understand 4e, so we winged it. Of course, this is also the First Appearance of the Stu, whose name is JAZZ. No, I'm not joking, its an acronym for some ignorantly long name too.

I'll give a little backstory on JAZZ before we start. He was apparently our DM's favorite PC from AD&D. So he decided that everyone should be a fan of JAZZ, the Godkiller, the Master of Space and Time, the 75th level Archmage, the 17th Level Grand Master of Flowers Monk, the 21st Level Assassin. The only truly unkillable being in the universe, who smites nuaghty gods when they disobey him. He was, might i add, Chaotic Nuetral. Yes. I know you have to be lawful to be a monk. Yes, i know you have to be evil to be an assassin in 1st edition.

Oh, did i forget to mention his Glassteel, 9th level spell casting intelligent dancing vorpal katana? Or the fact that he was a Drow? Or that he wore the clothes of a ninja?

Aside from the fact that his time bending abilities were "stolen from Kronos" and allowed him to "flip through time like the strips on movie film", and that he had "slain every evil god ever", leaving only him and a few good gods. You think you've seen Stuing? You've seen amateurs. He did whatever he wanted, and was subsequently praised by everyone in the UNIVERSE. Even though nobody knew his original name. For Truenaming reasons...

Oh, and he would grant any wish at any point in the storyline. Want a gold piece? Its in between the teeth of the Ancient Red Wyrm in front of you. Want 1,000,000 gold pieces? They fall, stacked perfectly in a line, from space and bore a hole through your entire body.

And the two examples i just gave? They actually happened, resulting in the rolling of two new characters in the first three minutes.

Anyways, to the story:

We find ourselves in the underdark. We are fifth level or so, what are and have basic equipment. (I showed the DM that most parties start with basic equipment.)

Suddenly, a mysterious but extremely charming man appears in front of us. He then asks us if we want any wishes. After rerolling two characters from wish-death, we proceed reluctantly into normal conversation. He asks us if we want to "fight or die". I say I want to walk away. He teleports in front of me. I walk by him. He immediately Magic Jars me, no saving throw, and then teleports me and my friend into an army of 10,000 orcs. We see castle nearby and, since he apparently used Time Stop, we start running. We reach the gates as the time stop ends.

Now i had convinced the DM that i had very limited spell casting ability and enchanting ability through 4e's rules. Yes, i know, it was wrong of me. But at the same time i can't only give you what he did wrong in these stories. I had taken arcana as a skill and some feat to do with ritual casting or some other. So it wasn't that i deceived him, but that i actually believed this to be the case.

Anyways, so we get through the other side of the castle wall by tricks from my friend who was a warlock. So I start chipping away at one of the boulders in a trebuchet, then cast levitate on said boulder and use it like a giant flying butter knife against the orc army.

Of course, the Stu can't fathom anyone doing something cooler than him, so he starts using some form of Bigby's hands to smash the army like "insects". He causes flaming avalanches and generally shows off, outdoing us at every step. I then fight a chieftain who sunders my armor and, right before i strike the killing blow, JAZZ appears and says "orc to pork", Polymorphing the orc into a pig.

He then immediately teleports us into the underdark, gives my companion several magic items and asks why i didnt take the chieftain's vorpal weapon. That was the end of that. Such started my DM career, fueled by the anger for people who needlessly screw players.

But this wouldn't be the last time I'd have to deal with JAZZ...


Any questions or comments?

Jarawara
2014-05-21, 04:16 PM
These kinds of stories come up all the time. I think you are reacting... well, normally considering the circumstances. In fact, I think it's healthy.

I have my own story, similar to yours. My first DM (Mike) routinely put forth scenarios where he saw a way that we the players could win, and if you thought of *that specific thing*, it would work, but if you tried anything else, it would fail horribly. The game was at least playable because pulling out your sword and your dice would still usually work. But it led to uninspired play because nobody would ever try anything unique.

Example: Battle of the Bridge

I've told this story before, so I'm going to give a shortened version of it here, but basically the party comes across a bridge spanning a great ravine. Party has to get across (we were being pursued by an army, plot was that direction, Mike wanted us to fight, etc). There are 90 orcs in three groups, plus 10 Ogres, and a Wyvren. 3 of the orcs are the riders, 30 of the orcs are being a short wall with arrowslits, 30 man the bridge itself and the rest are scattered around on this side ready to hit our flanks.

We walk forward into a slaughter, losing 90% of our party in the process. That's the extremely short version of the story, as there were lots of miscues, rules interpretations, dramatic moments, and a well placed spell that took our the rider but not the wyvren which then landed on the bridge and stung everything that moved, but the key point is that we lost nearly everybody.

After the battle, Mike gave us a few suggestions of what we could have done: Cast invisibility on the thief, have him go across the bridge and steal the keys to the wyvren (chained to a large tree at the start of the battle). Same thief could then go around cutting bowstrings, so that the archers would be out of business. We also could have charged them and overran them, as we were on horseback.

Now understand -- all of these suggestions would have worked, and worked beautifully. Why? Because the DM suggested them. Because the DM thought of it first, and was waiting for us to think of it. But if he hadn't thought of it himself, here's what would have happened...

Invisible thief would have gone across the river, pickpocketed an orc for the key (let's be generous and assume he was successful). Once the battle began, 2nd or 3rd orc rider would have produced their key and unlocked the wyvren. How would we have known to look for *3* orc riders out of 90? Even if we did, the "Wyvren handler" would have done the same. Effect: None.

Same thief, if he hasn't been caught and killed already, would have then gone and slit some bowstrings. Mike would have ruled that cutting bowstrings is "an attack of sorts", and invisibility would have been cancelled. Or he simply would have assumed that at least one of the orcs was watching, seen the bowstring being picked up and cut, and quickly surmised there is someone invisible there. Thief would have caught and killed, and then the orcs would have pulled out replacement bowstrings and been ready to nail us to death by the next round. Effect: None, except having lost our thief.

And we know what would happen if we tried casting Hold Person on the orc riders. 3 dead orc riders as they plummet to the ground, but then half a dozen dead party members as the wyvren decides to continue the battle without the rider's direction.

And as for overrunning them on horseback? There was a gate on the bridge which we couldn't cut down (we tried), so I bet that gate would have stopped our charge cold. Even if we could, Mike had a rule that whenever you entered a hexspace with a dead body, there was a chance to slip on the blood. At one point during the battle, I had to retreat from a position by riding over part of the battlefield already strewn with bodies. I made it one space - that's 5 feet - and the horse crashed to the ground and pinned me. Ogres were atop me and strung me out, orc lopped off my head in a coup-de-gras. I was 4th level with 39 hit points, having only taken 4 pts so far in the battle (and I was one of the "big guns" of the party), and voila, I was dead because a horse can't step over a corpse.

And he expected us to believe that we could have charged their position and overrun them? Just think of the carnage we would have endured, while their 2nd rank rushed in to finish us off?

*~*~*

Ah yeesh, and that was the short version. So back to my point:

By experiencing the horrors he inflicted upon us, I learned not to do that to my players. I would ask myself if I am copying what he had done, and correct my behavoir if necessary. I instituted certain policies. For example, if a player attempts something in my game, it most likely will work. That first DM taught us not to try anything. After all, if the effect is nullified and characters die for the attempt, why try anything? Just pull out swords and dice and go to work.

But I want my players to think, not just roll dice, so I reward them for thinking. Even in situations where the plan would fail (due to information the players lack), I'll let the plan work just to encourage the players to constantly try new things.

Another example - if we tried to sneak across a darkened hallway, Mike would have a guard peering down the hall at all times, we'd be seen, battle ensues shortly thereafter. But if you try to sneak across a darkened hallway in my game, even if I know there are guards on patrol, I will assume the guard didn't see you (*darkened* hallway), or that he was looking away for a moment, was distracted, etc. Why? Because I **WANT** you to try something I didn't expect. (Or even if I expected you to sneak, I will at least allow you to do it!)

I also learned to be well prepared... but to be prepared to set that preparation to the side. I once had prepped up a big fight for my players, over 40 gnolls who were inspecting an old ruin (the adventure site!). This was to provide an exciting fight for the 20-man party before the start of the actual exploration adventure began.

Party sends a scout forward to examine their adversaries, considers their options, and then walks up and says hello. They have a proposal, they say - "Let's you and us combine our efforts and divie up the loot".

Then I watched in facinated horror as a 60-man combo of party and gnolls proceed to tear up every challenge I had prepped for them in the lower levels. It was epic!!!! One PC (Nic) then turned the old ruin into a school for combat training, and his mercenary squad is famous up and down the coast. "Nic's Gnolls", swords for hire!

*~*~*

For years afterwards, I would say that my first DM taught me everything I ever needed to know about DMing. Whenever something would come up where I didn't know how to handle it, I would just think back to that first DM, and ask myself "How would Mike handle it?"

And then I would do the exact opposite.

35 years later, that approach still works for me.

So I suggest you do the same. It's normal to question yourself, but learn to take your DM's failings as a lesson on what not to do. He's done you a service, really, showing you why his actions were really bad. If he had endured a DM similar to him, he might not have been that way himself.

Of course you will make your mistakes, but at least this way you'll be making your own mistakes, new and original, and not just repeating the past. :)

Jarawara
2014-05-21, 04:20 PM
Any questions or comments?

Eeaaaahhhhhhhh...

Ok, I stand corrected. These kinds of stories *DO NOT* come up that often!

Jarawara
2014-05-21, 04:22 PM
But my opinion still stands. You're doing fine. A healthy dose of self-doubt is a good thing, and by having experienced the worst, you ensure that your own players won't have to face your previous horrors.

Arbane
2014-05-21, 04:29 PM
I remember when that Stu thread was written. And I still think my DM's Stu was worse. I'll elaborate later and let you guys judge.

Oh, yeah, like THAT'S likel....


I'll give a little backstory on JAZZ before we start. He was apparently our DM's favorite PC from AD&D. So he decided that everyone should be a fan of JAZZ, the Godkiller, the Master of Space and Time, the 75th level Archmage, the 17th Level Grand Master of Flowers Monk, the 21st Level Assassin. The only truly unkillable being in the universe, who smites nuaghty gods when they disobey him. He was, might i add, Chaotic Nuetral. Yes. I know you have to be lawful to be a monk. Yes, i know you have to be evil to be an assassin in 1st edition.

Oh, did i forget to mention his Glassteel, 9th level spell casting intelligent dancing vorpal katana? Or the fact that he was a Drow? Or that he wore the clothes of a ninja?

O_O

...I have to admit, you're making a strong case.

Gavran
2014-05-21, 04:54 PM
I didnt know about 4e being terrible though
And this is where you lost me.

What you've described isn't even the tiniest bit 4E (Seriously, you reference like six things that don't exist in 4E maybe two that do). I have no reason to believe what you played even vaguely resembled 4E, and I have no desire to continue reading the stories of someone who is going to dismiss something you completely failed to understand so readily.

Not that I'd bother telling you this normally, you're free to prefer whatever system you want, but you did ask for comments so... there it is.

veti
2014-05-21, 05:11 PM
So, you were being DM'd by - your dad?

Sounds like your DM learned way too much of his playstyle from 'Legend of Zelda'. Or, worse, 'Prince of Persia'.

I'd like to see more stories, but your narrative style could use improvement. Right now, it does come across as more than a little whiney.

To your question: yes, I've played in games where there's One Right Way to solve a problem, and anyone who tried anything different was punished. It wasn't fun, and my solution was to stop playing with that DM. Exception: if the One Right Way is blindingly obvious. (This is how 'Zelda' gets away with it - the ORW there is to "use the latest piece of cool gear you picked up, on whatever responds when you point at it". And even then, it only works because the only "punishment" for getting it wrong is you have to try again.)

killer_monk
2014-05-21, 06:10 PM
At the person about 4e not being understood: no, I didn't completely grasp the system. I found Pathfinder much easier for me. But if you're looking at the stats on JAZZ, then you'll be happy to know that the DM blatantly stated that JAZZ was, and is, immune to changes in the system.

No, again, I'm unfortunately not joking. JAZZ is actually immune to changes in the system. Except where he can pull from 3.X's spells list when desired.

Apologies for sounding whiney. Last thing I had intended. I have several more stories concerning JAZZ, and even one where the DM became a PC and tried to derail a campaign, to which I rules-smote him thoroughly.

The can of worms on who the DM is will not be opened, I am requesting such. I want a Nuetral view of all the events and actions of the stories, because i could very well be just as guilty. That is why I have not left any details out, not even about the ritual casting issue which I continued to use, more or less, for the entire character's play time.

On another note, I am glad to take any tips for GMing any of you have, and am appreciative of the tips I have already gotten. Thank you all for your input, whether negative or positive, every comment has potential to help.

And I will continue with the stories if requested to do so. I'll also do my best not to sound whiney.

spikeof2010
2014-05-21, 07:27 PM
I'm down to hear more.

nedz
2014-05-21, 07:43 PM
These stories are awful, but strangely they draw you in. It's a bit like watching a train crash.

Thrudd
2014-05-21, 09:01 PM
There are three issues at hand that I see. One is a game style choice issue, where there is no real right and wrong. There is nothing blatantly wrong with starting as level 0 nobodies who are very vulnerable. Not everyone may have fun playing that way, but other people might, it's just a preference.

The second issue is one of knowing the rules of a specific game. Some people use house rules in their games and/or ignore certain rules, a lot of people actually. There is nothing wrong about this, either, as long as everyone playing knows what the rules are. A part of the problem in your first game appears to be that you were not informed of the rules of the game you were playing, or at least you were not clear about them. In such a situation, it is good to ask questions of the DM regarding what sort of options you have within the rules. A good DM will help new players understand the rules and the options available to them. In your supposed 4e game, it sounds like none of you really knew the rules of the game, not even the DM.
Playing with the rules as a very loose guideline on a mostly free-form roleplaying session is not entirely uncommon, either. You just need to be informed that that is how the game will be. Again, not everyone enjoys playing this way, but it isn't wrong. The DM needs to make it clear this is what is going on.

The last issue is one of a bad DM. It sounds like maybe your DM didn't do any of the things mentioned earlier. Did not make the rules of the game clear to you, was not helpful when you were learning how to play, and maybe didn't really know the rules very well himself. Playing fast and loose with the rules isn't wrong, it's a style choice, but the players need to know that's how it's going to be so they can roll with it and free-form rather than being concerned about the rules. Having highly lethal games is also a style choice that isn't wrong, but again not everyone finds it fun, and you should be warned about it when you start.

The insane god-being DM character constantly interfering in the game is another mark of a bad DM and a game that is not fun for the players.

I have played in a game like this, too. With, probably not coincidentally a CN god-level DMPC that was a former character of the DM's from a previous edition that could pretty much do anything and was always randomly showing up. This DM was also one who expected us to perform very specific actions and anything else we tried automatically failed, and then used his DMPC god to punish us randomly because we weren't going about things the right way.

Such as: At first level, we were given a mission by the king to find out if the DMPC had returned to our world, since there were rumors of strange goings on. So of course we went to the area the reports had come from and started asking around, if anyone had seen the DMPC (can't remember what he was called now). Since we spoke his name aloud, people all shunned us and wouldn't talk to us or help us, and then he showed up and teleported us somewhere, if I remember right. Then the DM laughed at us, because we were so foolish as to actually utter the DMPC's name, as though we were meant to know that this was a taboo thing that would immediately summon him from whatever plane he was on. We had no knowledge of his game-world before the start, nor the history of this PC-become-god of infinite level and unlimited powers that we, as first level characters, were meant to find and somehow drive away from the kingdom. This was the game where I, as a bard with 19 charisma, was unable to favorably influence a single person to help us with anything, not because I rolled poorly (I never got to roll for anything), but the DM didn't want me to get the information I was looking for or to bypass any challenges that way.

veti
2014-05-21, 09:04 PM
The second story takes place in 4e.

Your writing voice improves considerably in this story. Bravo!

I'd like a little more out-of-game context. What did the DM say about all this, while and after it was happening?

killer_monk
2014-05-22, 05:11 AM
Your writing voice improves considerably in this story. Bravo!

I'd like a little more out-of-game context. What did the DM say about all this, while and after it was happening?

Thanks. I always try to apply criticism to the best of my abilities. And it's nice to know you're improving.

He was very detailed when saying something about JAZZ, but frankly couldn't of cared less about our characters. My Dragonborn had a neat story line I really wanted to incorporate, and my friend's Tiefling Warlock had a lot of role play room. Unfortunately we never got the spotlight, and my friend never played 4e again. (He did play one more time before giving it up completely, but because both times he played JAZZ was involved I'm not actually certain if he didn't enjoy tabletop gaming, or if he just hated JAZZ as much as me.)

He also blatantly stated JAZZ was immune to changes in the system, errata and since he never wrote down JAZZ's stats, they were more or less whatever he wanted them to be.

He would also go out of his way to cram JAZZ down every player's throat. And he hated it when someone would point out that there's no way he could've actually of earned all his PC's Uber powers and abilities, since half of them were 1st edition, and the other half were 3.x.

The DM never explained the rules. He wanted us to "learn through practice". The only thing we learned was to read the rules whenever he quotes stuff.

We were winging it, but the rules for 4e are more or less just a video game. You have your dailies, encounters and at wills. You have healing surges and AC. Hp is pretty static among the various players. Honestly it was just a tad boring. Didn't stop the DM from ignoring all the above though.

Yeah, I know it's like a train crash. It's why the sessions with JAZZ had a tendency to draw a crowd. And because they drew a crowd, it made the DM think he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which just fueled the Stu.

The Glyphstone
2014-05-22, 08:48 AM
Marty is still the worse Stu - as bad as JAZZ sounds, I doubt it ever got to the point where your DM believed JAZZ was actually his literal self projected into the game world - but really, that's like arguing who has the worst sucking chest wound.

Share more JAZZ stories though, if you have any good ones. Train wrecks are always more fun to watch from a distance.

Airk
2014-05-22, 10:01 AM
See, the reason this clown was playing with kids/new roleplayers is because no one with any prior experience in what RPGs are supposed to be like would tolerate this nonsense for more than a single session. I probably wouldn't last more than 15 minutes. That second story made me throw up a little.

So to answer questions from the first post:

No, you're not whining, though it does sound like you have some scars. With luck, those can turn into "Let me tell you my favorite GM horror story!" scars which are entertaining for all involved.
It doesn't sound like you're in any danger of, er. Stu-ing a game, but it's always a good idea to doublecheck that if the PCs are involving an NPC on their side, that it's because they WANT to, not because they feel they HAVE to. And, well, your NPCs should be bound by the system they are in. :P

It's also probably not a bad idea to read some of the excellent GMing advice available on the internet. Because, you know, there's good advice out there, and even if you don't NEED it, it sure doesn't hurt. This section from the Dungeon World SRD (http://book.dwgazetteer.com/gm.html) has a lot of good general advice, particularly in "Agenda" and "principles". You really can't go too far wrong following that logic in ANY game. (I'm actually a particular fan of the part where he tells you what your job ISN'T.)

CombatOwl
2014-05-22, 10:07 AM
At the heart of it, that story reads like the DM had a specific 'solution' in mind which - to him - was simple or even obvious, and made that the only solution he'd accept to the predicament he threw at you.

Which isn't good DMing, because being a good DM is about 70% reacting to your players and dealing with how they respond to your death traps or what have you.

But that's just my two bits.

Who needs death traps? A bit of rope and players will hang themselves for you. "Hey, look, a treasure map!"

LokiRagnarok
2014-05-22, 10:12 AM
Suddenly, a mysterious but extremely charming man appears in front of us. He then asks us if we want any wishes. After rerolling two characters from wish-death, we proceed reluctantly into normal conversation. He asks us if we want to "fight or die". I say I want to walk away. He teleports in front of me. I walk by him. He immediately Magic Jars me, no saving throw, and then teleports me and my friend into an army of 10,000 orcs.

Have you ever told that exact story before? I seem to remember the "teleporting in front of you to make you say a wish" thing.

TriForce
2014-05-22, 10:45 AM
sooo, 2 questions that are in desperate need of awnsering:

1: did anyone TELL the DM that his JAZZ is ruining any chance of the game being fun?
2: why do you have multiple stories about the guy when most people would have walked away from the table halfway in the first encounter?

DM Nate
2014-05-22, 11:46 AM
2: why do you have multiple stories about the guy when most people would have walked away from the table halfway in the first encounter?

*cue with revelation that poster is actually DM*

WHAT A TWIST!

Airk
2014-05-22, 11:47 AM
2: why do you have multiple stories about the guy when most people would have walked away from the table halfway in the first encounter?

Because when you're new the hobby, and don't know how things are supposed to work, and an authority figure tells you this is how it is, and everyone says it's great fun...

C'mon man, put yourself in the fellow's shoes.

killer_monk
2014-05-22, 12:13 PM
Because when you're new the hobby, and don't know how things are supposed to work, and an authority figure tells you this is how it is, and everyone says it's great fun...

C'mon man, put yourself in the fellow's shoes.

Actually, this is 100% correct. Good call.

I told the DM that JAZZ was terrible on many occasions. It never even slowed him down.


The Third Story: this takes place several months ago.

I'm actually not going to be talking about JAZZ today, although i still have several stories of him. I want to give an example of what this person plays like, and even possibly make myself look bad. In the following events, I'd like you to tell me: Did I do the right thing?

One other thing about the DM is that when he actually played, he was one of the absolute worst Player Killers you'll ever have the misfortune to meet. He would go to literally any lengths to kill another player, and would lie about his rolls if it meant he'd end up as more powerful or would "win" against another player. But I didn't realize this at first.

We're playing pathfinder (This is several years after I'd finally had enough of JAZZ and stopped playing the DM's games.) and the old DM wants to join in and try it.

I figure he might have realized his DMing/Playstyle wasn't very friendly to other PCs, and that he'd changed his ways. So, being both stupid and forgiving, I let him try his hand at Pathfinder.

He was jumping into an already going adventure, and had started as a 12th level Human swashbuckler, from the Tome of Secrets.

The group proceeds through the various kobolds, gelatinous cubes and even ghosts i had set up. They were playing a variation of Crown of the Kobold King, if i remember right.

Now, it was my three friends, my girlfriend, the DM and myself. One of the changes i remember making was that there would be two White Dragon Fights, spaced between three or so days. After they slew the first White they skinned it and took their loot back to town to sell. Well, they had killed the White's mate, and so had angered it into tracking them down. (was all part of the story.)

After getting to town, selling their loot and waiting a day or two they all saw the white dragon flying down the mountain at them. Such ended the first session.

Now, the DM immediately says, "there's no way that dragon could know i was involved. I made everyone else handle the skins and i covered my tracks", (he didnt tjough.) he was asking that everyone else should have to fight the dragon instead, and that if anyone left town he'd kill them.

My girlfriend asked to be excluded from the following events under the pretense that her PC left town the previous night. She didnt want the DM to kill her character, and was well aware of his reputation as a PKer. So i allowed it, since i knew she was rather attached to her backstory.

Next session they started fighting the dragon, without one PC. Apparently, as the DM says, "i had cheated and shown favoritism to my GF by letting her walk away and not get killed by the dragon on her way out of town."

He eventually convinces another two players that taking a small boat out to sea was a good idea, while the group cleric decided to stay and fight the dragon off.

He became extremely anger after the Cleric asked to use the rules for ballista and managed to drive off the dragon with the town gaurd. The dragon then headed for the boat (i did actually have it roll a perception check.) and began attacking them.

After the DM says, "I jump inside it's mouth and cut out it's heart from the inside" i almost lost it. The dragon in question didnt have swallow whole, and he was just upset the other two players were actually managing. So he wanted to steal the show.

After i let the dragon eat him, after telling him about the swallow whole rules, he was upset he couldn't just kill it. So he asked to sell his soul to asmodeus in turn for killing the dragon.

After dying inside the dragon, and asmodeus then killing it, he wanted to return as a demon so he could kill the cleric and the PC who skipped town.

I blatantly told him no. And that his actions had cost the group a great deal more than if they had just fought it as a team, instead of using death threats and accusations of favoritism. (he knew showing favoritism was a particular pet peeve of mine.)

Did i do the right thing in letting her go? And as for dealing with the problem maker?

I hate to think i have ever played favorites, but did i really? I never gave her more loot, or more advice or more anything than I ever gave another player? Or maybe I'm just being deluded?

Thoughts? Comments?

DM Nate
2014-05-22, 12:42 PM
I've learned not to care about the opinions of a guy who's an obvious jerk.

What did the other people at the session say?

Airk
2014-05-22, 01:05 PM
I've learned not to care about the opinions of a guy who's an obvious jerk.

What did the other people at the session say?

Are you saying the GM did the right thing by ignoring the OPs criticisms because he's an obvious jerk? Because that's sure what it SOUNDS like you're saying. ("If you were the only person at the session complaining, he was obviously right to ignore you.")

As for the latest tale, honestly, I think you were very lenient. If a player in a game I was running said "I jump in the dragon's mouth" I would have said "It chews you, take double bite damage, then it spits you out into the lake, I hope you can swim." Similarly, if someone tried to retcon stuff by saying something like "I made everyone else handle the skins" - well, unless he actually had no involvement, that would've met with a confused "That's not how it looked to me." and a denied request. It's one thing to say "Oh hey, while I was in town, could I have gotten ahold of some rope?" when the group is on the way to the dungeon, and another thing to say that when you find yourself in front of chasm that you need rope to cross.

I also don't think there was anything wrong with letting your GF's character skip town, but I can also see that one being perceived as favoritism. However, it's NOT, IMHO, unless other players also asked and were denied.

DM Nate
2014-05-22, 01:10 PM
Are you saying the GM did the right thing by ignoring the OPs criticisms because he's an obvious jerk? Because that's sure what it SOUNDS like you're saying. ("If you were the only person at the session complaining, he was obviously right to ignore you.")

Only person complaining AND an obvious jerk. After five years in the infantry, I've developed a bit of a thick skin when it comes to the criticisms of people who already hold no regard for others.

Airk
2014-05-22, 01:13 PM
Only person complaining AND an obvious jerk. After five years in the infantry, I've developed a bit of a thick skin when it comes to the criticisms of people who already hold no regard for others.

So you ARE asserting that the OP is being an obvious jerk? :smallconfused:

I am super confused by the lack of context in your posts.

illyahr
2014-05-22, 01:20 PM
So you ARE asserting that the OP is being an obvious jerk? :smallconfused:

I am super confused by the lack of context in your posts.

OP is the DM in the recent story. "DM" is the PC who made life miserable for the players. OP is saying the PC (who was the DM previously) tried to steal the show by cheating and claiming favoritism.

spikeof2010
2014-05-22, 01:26 PM
Christ, what the hell is with your DM's PC? He sounds like a gigantic megalomaniac idiot who can't stand not being in the spotlight.

Also, I don't think you were showing favoritism to your girlfriend, as if I was in your position, I would of let anyone who asked to go.

lytokk
2014-05-22, 01:30 PM
I think he's saying that the DM, not the OP is an obvious jerk. At least thats how i'm interpreting it with no intention of putting words or meanings into another person's post.

In regards to letting your GF leave, if she had left town the night before the dragon attacked, its very reasonable for her to not be IN the town when the dragon attacked, and thus able to sit the session out. If she said she was leaving town the night before after finding out the dragon was attacking, thats a bit of a different situation and may be justified in calling some sort of favortism, but only if you didn't allow anyone else to make that choice.

Honestly, I would wash my hands of this guy and have nothing left to do with him. I think you handled the in game situation well, with him having convinced half the party to leave the 1 cleric to fight the dragon alone, but I'd never allow this man within any range of any of my games ever again.

BTW, the threat of killing anyone who left town, he was referring to characters killing characters correct? not him actually threatening the players?

Friv
2014-05-22, 01:38 PM
I think you only made one mistake there, and it's an easy one to make - by letting your GF skip town between sessions, you were tacitly admitting that you'd made a mistake by inviting Ex-DM to play, but by leaving the other players to take the brunt of his terrible behaviour you weren't shielding them from him. To a certain extent, yeah, that's favoritism. As favoritism goes, it's pretty mild, since you were largely shielding her from your mistake, rather than from hers, but if things were that bad you should probably have had a talk between sessions with everyone about what to do about this guy.

Airk
2014-05-22, 01:39 PM
Ah, okay. All this use of "DM" to mean someone who's not actually DMing must've confused me. x.x

Honestly, I thought "I jump inside it's mouth and cut out it's heart from the inside" was HILARIOUS in the "My god, that's so stupid, and you just gave me such a good way to punish you for being dumb." way.

killer_monk
2014-05-22, 01:45 PM
He was threatening the characters, not the players.

The other players had been given the option of leaving, but the Problem Player had not been given that option. Everyone except my GF wanted to fight the dragon. She didn't want to because she didn't want the Problem Player stabbing her in the back, as she was rather attached to her character.

And yes, i am fairly lenient on rules. I don't want to stifle good creativity in a game. I feel that's bad practice.

Any other comments/questions?

nedz
2014-05-22, 01:47 PM
Who needs death traps? A bit of rope and players will hang themselves for you. "Hey, look, a treasure map!"

I find empty rooms to be the most dangerous.

lytokk
2014-05-22, 01:58 PM
Another thought, anything his character does can be changed. IF he stabbed your gf in the back during the dragon fight, all you have to say is "No, you didn't, as you were about to knife her between the vertebrae a deep dark pit openned up beneath you where you fall to your imminent demise. Now leave my house."

Or, you know, whatever floats your boat. Hopefully most of your players look at his example and realize they don't want to be him.

Airk
2014-05-22, 02:00 PM
Another thought, anything his character does can be changed. IF he stabbed your gf in the back during the dragon fight, all you have to say is "No, you didn't, as you were about to knife her between the vertebrae a deep dark pit openned up beneath you where you fall to your imminent demise. Now leave my house."

This is definitely in line with the previous "lenient with the rules" viewpoint. ;)



Or, you know, whatever floats your boat. Hopefully most of your players look at his example and realize they don't want to be him.

On the other hand, I don't think it's ever really good to make examples of people.

That said, I think this problem falls into a "this happened a while ago" situation, so all this debate is not entirely relevant. OP, is there something that happened recently that has given you cause for concern here?

killer_monk
2014-05-22, 02:40 PM
Nothing recent, no. I have refused to let him participate after last time.

I guess it was just that favoritism was called. It really bothers me that there could've been favoritism at all. That and getting back in the GM chair has gotten increasingly difficult.

I don't get to be a PC anymore, because i obviously can't let JAZZ come out of the woodwork, and the only other two players I have left don't really know how to GM.

So I started running DMPCs. But I've seen so much where these can, and usually do, go horribly wrong. I've asked my players, but they don't really say much.

Take example: I love playing monstrous PCs. My most recent one (the one I've been using for our current campaign.) is a very young Red Dragon. I can't do damage even close to the other two PCs (A Monk and a Rogue), and since I'm a warlock (no LA for race, but still made myself take racial HD) I barely do much anyways. Only thing that saves me from uselessness is the Metabreath Feats from Draconomicon.

And recently I've been wanting to play a vampire under the rules found in Blood of the Night.

Yes. I know it's cliché to play one of these, but I'm more worried about becoming a JAZZ or just being blatantly OP in regard to the other player's. The last thing I want is to burn someone's experience of D&D or Pathfinder.

So I guess that's what is on my mind. I'm just worried about falling into the same pit that my DM fell into. So I've been detailing my experiences.

And it really has helped a lot to know I wasn't just being a selfish d-bag in these situations. I have to thank you all for just giving me a place to know I'm not crazy.

And I'll continue with the stories if requested. It's helped me thus far, after all.

lytokk
2014-05-22, 03:27 PM
There's some simple rules to playing a successful DMPC.
The first is realizing that they have to walk a fine line otherwise they become overpowered and overshadow the PCs, but if they fall too far to the other side, there's no point in them even staying around.
So long as your players actually chose to have this guy around and you're not forcing it on the players you should be fine.
IMO, a DMPC should never offer tactical advice to resolve a situation unless he's explicitly asked for it.
Its alright for the DMPC to have an emergency tactic that's designed to negate an encounter, but only ever use it if you're being forced with a TPK due to bad luck. If you use it, make sure that the tactic has some extreme cost to make it unusable often.
Never let your DMPC get away with anything you wouldn't let a player pc get away with. This includes playing a race/class you don't allow, or going with a very lenient interpreting of the rules in his favor.
Don't get attached. If any of the characters in the game are going to have to bite the big one, it should be your guy. This works great if your emergency button results in the death of the DMPC, but savior of the party, though don't dwell on the thought and blame the PC's ineptitude for the death of the DMPC.
Try to shoot for either support roles or roles that fill in the gap. If the party lacks ranged support, playing someone to give exclusive archery support is alright. In addition, don't play a character that makes a PC redundant. Healer/buffing clerics make decent DMPCs, since thats a role that some players don't want to play.
If your party lacks a trapfinder, it would be a better idea to cut traps from the game than to play a DMPC rogue. If the party needs a face, it better not be you, otherwise it's just you talking to yourself.

These are some of the tips and good advice I've gotten and thought up in regards to a good DMPC. Hardly a comprehensive list. Currently in my game I've got a Cleric Archer designed to buff and do the ranged thing. The party wanted him along, esp in the early days since we had no healer. Now we've gotten a druid who can fill that role and I've been thinking of ways to kill/get rid of the DMPC as he's not as needed anymore. The party likes having him around, even spent their 1 DM fiat to bring him back from the dead due to a lucky crit, which makes me think I shouldnt kill him.

But keep sharing the stories. If it helps to get it off your chest do it.

Airk
2014-05-22, 03:49 PM
There's some simple rules to playing a successful DMPC.
The first is realizing that they have to walk a fine line otherwise they become overpowered and overshadow the PCs, but if they fall too far to the other side, there's no point in them even staying around.

I disagree with this; Yes, you should never overpower/overshadow the PCs, but there are PLENTY of reasons a character might stay around even if they're not really very "useful" in the strict power sense. That said, it's usually best to NOT give them classes and levels. Give them a couple of powers they can use, and that's it. Everyone likes having a fighter with a big shield who can throw it in front of them a couple of times a fight, or a healer who can restore some damage, or whatever.



So long as your players actually chose to have this guy around and you're not forcing it on the players you should be fine.

And believe it or not, this is a roleplaying game, so the reason they choose to keep someone around might, in fact, be because they like them.



IMO, a DMPC should never offer tactical advice to resolve a situation unless he's explicitly asked for it.

I'm on the fence with this one. I generally think it's okay for an NPC (DMPC is a useless phrase, here, IMHO) to offer input on a situation if it's something they would know about. The trick is, of course, understanding what they would know about.



Its alright for the DMPC to have an emergency tactic that's designed to negate an encounter, but only ever use it if you're being forced with a TPK due to bad luck. If you use it, make sure that the tactic has some extreme cost to make it unusable often.

Honestly, I'm way LESS okay with this one. I don't think most PCs parties are interested in being pulled out of the fire by an NPC, regardless of cost. Find a better way to avoid your TPK. Hell, have the NPC do something that's not an "emergency tactic" so much as, say, begging for mercy, and have it work.


Never let your DMPC get away with anything you wouldn't let a player pc get away with. This includes playing a race/class you don't allow, or going with a very lenient interpreting of the rules in his favor.

Correct.


Try to shoot for either support roles or roles that fill in the gap. If the party lacks ranged support, playing someone to give exclusive archery support is alright. In addition, don't play a character that makes a PC redundant. Healer/buffing clerics make decent DMPCs, since thats a role that some players don't want to play.

Good advice. Stay out of people's niches when possible.

Jarawara
2014-05-22, 04:26 PM
And I'll continue with the stories if requested. It's helped me thus far, after all.

I officially request that you do so - If you want to. I think it could be theraputic for you to talk it out of your system, and apparently you think that too, so I suggest you continue.

As for favoritism and the most recent story, there are certain issues there. Saying your girlfriend could leave town the night before... *could* be viewed as favoritism. But as pointed out, this was special circumstances. Had she asked for an advantage to be ret-conned for her character ("Can I say I bought some rope in town"), you have to worry about favoritism, (Especially if it was "Can I say I bought an arrow of White Dragon Slaying"), but what she was trying to do is avoid a situation with another player. That's not favoritism, that's inter-player conflicts and we can clearly tell which player is the problem.

But that's the rub, you see... Everyone can tell who the real problem is... **Except the problem-maker**. You have to consider how he might be seeing the situation, and how he might be seeing your "fixes" and your "reactions" to his play.

1) Dragon follows party back to town. Ok, I got no problem with that, it shouldn't be that hard for it to track them. But recognizing who exactly what the party members? That might be hard. Problem-player-previous-DM (PPDM) might have a point there. Even Smaug from The Hobbit did not track Bilbo specifically back to Rivertown. He just went to Rivertown and trashed the place on the assumption that's where the party came from. So if 'PPDM' wanted to leave, he reasonably could have left.

His ordering the other characters to fight the dragon, and insisting that he would kill them if they don't, warrents a full expulsion from the group. Especially if he ever carried out that threat.

2) I think it's reasonable that the dragon could be fought off by ballista. I mean, Smaug was slain by an arrow... and I'm sure every dragon has read 'The Hobbit', right? So they know that all it takes is a single well-placed arrow. Then it sees telephone-pole sized arrows flying out towards it? Yeah, I can see it break off its attack.

And it's reasonable to then have it attack outlying targets, stragglers away from the defenses of the town. Like say, a rowboat out at sea.

But from PPDM's viewpoint, that could all be viewed as you not attacking the other players, and going specifically towards him. Put yourself in his position, and you'll see it clearly.

3) The PPDM's idea of 'jumping in the mouth and cutting out his heart' is... well, a bit over the top. I had previously posted that I always let a player's ideas work, except when they are really over the top. This might be one of those situations. However, when I see that an idea would fail, but that a *similar* idea might succeed, I am quick to improvise.

"You dive into the mouth, which stuns the dragon by the sheer audacity of it, but quickly ascertain that if swallowed whole (the only way to get close enough to the dragon's heart), that your arms would be pinned and you would be unable to strike and cut effectively. But thinking quickly, (as the dragon recovers and begins to bite down on you), you wedge your sword so that if the dragon bites down, he'll kill you and but also himself with a sword through his brain. Turns out, this dragon saw 'DragonHeart' too! What do you do now?"

Then let the player decide if he wants to die killing the dragon, or have a standoff like in Dragonheart. Or maybe he just wants to back out of there by jumping, and the dragon will pull out the sword and maybe then fly off.

But from your player's point of view, his idea didn't work, *yet the previous player's idea with the ballista did*. He could be viewing that as favoritism.

3) His idea of calling upon Asmodeus is a good one, and your allowing it was a good call. His request to come back as a demon... might have been a good idea, if it was for roleplaying purposes. But to "come back as a demon so he can kill the other players" is grounds for immediate expulsion from the group. You did the right thing.

*~*~*

There is an old saying on these boards: "Never use in-game solutions to out-of-game problems." What that means is, the Problem Previous DM is the problem, don't find an in-game solution to get back at him. If he's causing the problem, talk with him, deal with him out of game, expell him from the game if necesssary.

Which you have done, apparently. Good for you, I know it must have been tough. Based on a previous comment that was edited out, I know it must have been particularly tough.

But if you had previously found yourself taking any in-game reactions to his out-of-game problem making, then you have to learn to control that impulse in the future. Otherwise, he could have been interpreting those actions as favoritism, and thus failing to recognize it as the natural consequences of his own actions.

*~*~*~*

By the way... this was all an analysis of how the Problem-Previous-DM might have been seeing it. But your concern seemed more focused towards how your current players might be seeing your current game. So far, I've seen no evidence of any issues that your players could be concerned about, and so I doubt your players see favoritism as an issue.

But as I stated before... you are always right to be worried about it. By acknowledging it as a possible flaw, you are less likely to fall victim to it. By being constantly vigilant about avoiding these problems, I think you are on the path to being a great DM. Keep up the good work.

killer_monk
2014-05-22, 04:29 PM
I've actually already lost a DMPC this campaign because of a TPK that almost happened. He died saving the rest. They loved him so much they used one of their three wishes to give him a proper burial.

The reason I went warlock was because their party lacks any type of magic user. Or ranged. Or healer. Wands of Cure Light Wounds HO!!!

I try very hard to not be OP. I had even planned on playing a Bard when making a vampire DMPC. Because I feel like support really is the best role for a DMPC.

I try to avoid party face at all costs. Even with my ridiculous charisma. Basically the group says,"hey, you convince them to do this", and he does.

I will continue with another story tomorrow. For now, please ask questions on anything you may be wondering about.

I3igAl
2014-05-22, 07:35 PM
I've actually already lost a DMPC this campaign because of a TPK that almost happened. He died saving the rest. They loved him so much they used one of their three wishes to give him a proper burial.

The reason I went warlock was because their party lacks any type of magic user. Or ranged. Or healer. Wands of Cure Light Wounds HO!!!

I try very hard to not be OP. I had even planned on playing a Bard when making a vampire DMPC. Because I feel like support really is the best role for a DMPC.

I try to avoid party face at all costs. Even with my ridiculous charisma. Basically the group says,"hey, you convince them to do this", and he does.

Sounds good so far. How do you handle Monster Races? Do you use Pathfinders CR counts as class levels(+buying off) or are you using 3.Xs Level Adjustment? This would make it easier to judge how OP(Pathfinder) or useless(D&D) a Vampire-DMPC will be.

So far it sounds like you played the DMPC well.


A few ideas I got reading through this thread:

-Buffing up the players with the DMPC, so they deal more damage will make them especially happy(Inspire Courage, Haste, Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon/Armor).
-I would advise considering to tie your DMPC directly into the Campaign. Have him be a member of the organisation, that hired the PCs, the Questgivers right hand man, maybe the mission is to escort him somewhere safely etc. .
-One alternative to the DMPC would be giving a willing player a free Leadership feat(or just a free cohort) he can command if he is interested in that.
-You could put up some Anti-PVP rules. In my games the player, whose PC is attacked by another PC, has the right to veto such actions. This way PVP can still be an interesting roleplaying experience, but only if both guys ar ok with it.

Mando Knight
2014-05-22, 07:39 PM
Thanks. I always try to apply criticism to the best of my abilities. And it's nice to know you're improving.

He was very detailed when saying something about JAZZ, but frankly couldn't of cared less about our characters. My Dragonborn had a neat story line I really wanted to incorporate, and my friend's Tiefling Warlock had a lot of role play room. Unfortunately we never got the spotlight, and my friend never played 4e again. (He did play one more time before giving it up completely, but because both times he played JAZZ was involved I'm not actually certain if he didn't enjoy tabletop gaming, or if he just hated JAZZ as much as me.)

He also blatantly stated JAZZ was immune to changes in the system, errata and since he never wrote down JAZZ's stats, they were more or less whatever he wanted them to be.

He would also go out of his way to cram JAZZ down every player's throat. And he hated it when someone would point out that there's no way he could've actually of earned all his PC's Uber powers and abilities, since half of them were 1st edition, and the other half were 3.x.

The DM never explained the rules. He wanted us to "learn through practice". The only thing we learned was to read the rules whenever he quotes stuff.

We were winging it, but the rules for 4e are more or less just a video game. You have your dailies, encounters and at wills. You have healing surges and AC. Hp is pretty static among the various players. Honestly it was just a tad boring. Didn't stop the DM from ignoring all the above though.

Yeah, I know it's like a train crash. It's why the sessions with JAZZ had a tendency to draw a crowd. And because they drew a crowd, it made the DM think he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which just fueled the Stu.

I think in this case the problems with the game were mostly in the DM, not the system. A bad DM can make even a good system seem terrible, and a good DM can make a sub-par system enjoyable. No one can save the System Which Shall Remain Unnamed, though.

Lord Torath
2014-05-22, 09:03 PM
Suddenly, a mysterious but extremely charming man appears in front of us. He then asks us if we want any wishes. After rerolling two characters from wish-death, we proceed reluctantly into normal conversation. I wish for you and only you to be imprisoned forever in the demi-plane of extremely painful torture! :smallbiggrin:

Kid Jake
2014-05-22, 09:41 PM
I wish for you and only you to be imprisoned forever in the demi-plane of extremely painful torture! :smallbiggrin:

Done, but now the thousands of murderers previously housed there are released into your world and he uses his super awesome powers to make it into the demi-plane of Happy Hour.

Tvtyrant
2014-05-22, 10:56 PM
I think in this case the problems with the game were mostly in the DM, not the system. A bad DM can make even a good system seem terrible, and a good DM can make a sub-par system enjoyable. No one can save the System Which Shall Remain Unnamed, though.

Is this a FATE reference?

Airk
2014-05-22, 11:16 PM
Is this a FATE reference?

You mean FATAL. Very different critter.

Kid Jake
2014-05-22, 11:20 PM
Why do we even have a system that shall not be named if everybody keeps naming it!?

Gamgee
2014-05-23, 03:20 AM
I've had a pretty DM as well. Funnily enough it was also the first time I would ever "play" an rpg, except being the intelligent person I am compared to most I picked up the rules fairly quickly. I had also played some computer versions of dnd at the time so I knew the gist of it.

I told this story a long time ago on these forums, but I don't want to go into the details. I'll give a brief and short version.

We show up at his house after school around 4:30. This is character creation time, and I want to play a dwarf fighter because why the hell not. I even came up with a back story when asked and he liked it. He didn't print enough sheets for players and character creation took about 3 hours. This was in part because "people" who he never invited kept showing up and randomly asking to join the game and he was just to polite to turn them away. I'm having my doubts at this point, I'm a fairly critical individual in real life with zero tolerance for BS. The GM has not been here through all of character creation. We have only sporadically seen him come down from upstairs mostly to think about back story stuff with us. Most of the work is being done by other players teaching us the details of the rules. Not even a hint of plot other than the most bare bones description. We would be in a city. I was making my back story envisioning some sort of generic fantasy universe.

7:30pm the "horde" arrives, and I wish that meant a horde of orcs to kill. This is the last time we see the DM for several hours. An endless tide of party guests show up and he tries his best to contain them upstairs, but that's about as effective as trying to chop off your arm to staunch a bleeding hand. Thankfully only a few of them drift down here to the "no fun zone" and start to mingle with the players. Slowly drawing a few of them upstairs to the party. Music is starting, and it's now super loud upstairs because party. His parents even partake in the festivities his friends bring over, and then depart (uh oh).

7:31-11:30pm lots of party BS later (I'm a fairly quiet person who doesn't do parties). I'm getting bored and want to walk home (about 12-15 miles at night) since none of my "friends" want to give me a ride home. The ones who would can't at this time, can't get a hold of anyone I know, and I have no money for bus fare (long story). By now the party clears out kind of sort of, or dies down enough. All night I was just playing video games and occasionally talking to people who regularly called me a nerd/loser/made fun of me at school (not that I cared). So boy was this ever an awkward several hours, thankfully making fun of them kept my spirits up due to their poor ability to retort. The night was not completely wasted as I got to play some video games here and there with the occasional drunken person or friend who wanted to have some rounds.

Around 11:30 the GM makes his triumphant return now that things have died down. He smells of alcohol, cheap weed, and a lot of other stuff (I don't do any of this "fun" stuff. So sue me). He rambles around for a little bit, he looks pretty tired. He says he has no plot in mind, and to give him some time to think of something.

12:20 or so he returns. Yes he left again. He smells of fresh cheap weed. Now we finally start to play. And we start in a tavern which gets attacked by goblins. Yes this took him around 40 minutes to "think" up and we should "appreciate" his story telling genius. All night the GM when I see him basically is friendly to everyone but me, so here at the "game table" is no different. Often forgetting about me in initiative, skipping past me, talking condescending to me because I'm new, and generally being a ****. He has only been a **** to me personally all night. Of the hundred or so people I have seen him talk to all night. However I'm in no position to leave so I just play along to see where the idiot will end it.

We fight the goblins, and because he is so stoned and drunk it takes him about an hour for us to kill 4 of them, a boar, and then find a temple to heal us. A lot of this time is him getting distracted and talking about stuff.

1:20 "I'm sorry guys, I'm so cold now. Let me go get a blanket. I'll come back and we will keep playing. It's just too cold down here." He had been complaining about being cold for a few minutes, and finally decides to go around this time.

1:40 He finally returns with a sleeping bag. Again smelling like weed. He does his best to keep playing, but he looks increasingly tired and done. It takes him a long time to string even a single sentence together.

He takes 10 minutes to "think of the plot" and this is the amazing thing he comes up with. The elves need help for some reason not explained in the forest. So we amble around town and prepare.

2-2:30 am He varies between talking about random stuff and monologing, and describing things to us. Until he ends the night with this genius story telling tidbit.

Okay.....

You see....

Trees.......

There's some spiders..... I forgot to mention those.....

*inhales deeply* Boy I'm getting tired.

*really long pause. So long we get dice ready at the prospect of finally doing something*

But some arrows fly out of nowhere and kill them.... they look elven.....

*deep inhalation*

The elves....

I'm sorry guys I'm done for tonight. I'm just too tired. Good game, look forward to playing with you all next time. I'm also too cold. *falls back on the couch and wraps himself up in the sleeping bag and falls asleep instantly*

I fell into a rather uneasy sleep in a reclining chair that didn't recline all that well. The next morning I GTFO and never went back or so I would think. A year later my friend convinced me to go back somehow (same **** happened almost in the exact same way I ****ing kid you not. But that's another story for another time. I was however not having any of that **** and walked back home/got a ride in the daylight the second time. I was prepared).

To this day me and my friend laugh about how dumb his friend is. At every turn he tries to convince me this GM is good, a smart person, and nice. I'm unconvinced. My friend moved years back and the bad GM is still around. He plays at my local FLGS and still stares at me with contempt. I don't know what I did to piss this guy off. Second I met him he never liked me.

Edit
The very next day after I decided to host my own 3.5 game. I was an ambitious kid. Turned out amazing, people love and quote it to this day, and it started my GM career. I instantly knew if he could convince some idiots he was a good GM I could blow them out of the water (done many times over).

Edit2
Oh boy the story of the time he tried to join my game is hilarious. He thought he was smart, and ended up getting himself killed. He was just too "smart" for his own good after all. He actually took issue with my game and how I ran it. Despite the fact that at the time I had 8 regular players, and more eager to join. Not to brag but I knew the rules, had a plot, knew the Star Wars lore well, and was generally a fair GM barring an error or two. I`m only human. I made a few mistakes during the game which players corrected me on and we all went on our merry way. It might have delayed the game.... all of 1-2 minutes the two or three times it happened.

And he was getting mad about that delay... I didn't say anything to him of course. I could only hope if he was as smart as claimed he would be aware of the delicious irony of the situation. Suffice to say my player met the man himself who I had told them of all those years ago, and boy were they laughing after he was gone. To this freaking day he is still quoted as being an ur example of a stupid player. We treated him with respect all game (something he didn't do to me) and we even tried to get him to reverse his decision on self termination. But he wouldn't have any of that. I had gotten a rule wrong again and he just had to correct it.... in... ??? someones favor? I was trying to lie about the rule to keep him alive, but he caught me and wouldn't let it go (arguing for 30 minutes). So by the rules I had to kill him. *sigh* To this day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8BfnqWvx1Q).

killer_monk
2014-05-23, 04:59 AM
Most of the time, I find racial Hit Dice to more than equalize a race's capabilities.

The Vampire is a bit different though. It doesn't have any racial HD, but at the same time becomes pretty stupidly powerful.

The Blood of the Night companion module suggests having a vampire use the slow XP progression tables. Since vampires are effectively immortal, they're really in no rush to learn things like people who have a limited lifespan are.

Wishes? I'll never make a wish in his game. No matter what you do, even if you add the legal clauses to make anything bad happpening impossible, something bad still happens. Because he doesn't care, he wants you to worship JAZZ or die.

PvP isn't really an issue in my games, since it's just the three of us.

Yeah, I had a stoner friend (he'll be featured as the cleric in the next episode.) and his habits became intolerable. He eventually stopped coming to meets and then stopped talking to me.

I'll never let him on my property again, but that's a different type of drama all together.

DM Nate
2014-05-23, 08:45 AM
@ Gamgee: That story was hilarious. I've had an experience with a bad DM (the sort whose world was so open-ended that it had no plotline, yet somehow we were railroaded the entire time), but fortunately only one. I'm glad to see your experience prompted you to do better than he, instead of simply writing off the d20 experience.

TriForce
2014-05-23, 08:46 AM
with regard to the girlfriends character skipping town:

yes, i do believe you showed some form of favoritism by letting her do that. mind you, im not saying you didnt have enough reason to do so, but you gave her a chance that none of the rest had, the reason she left was metagaming, and it sounded like you only decided she left the day after it happened, making it a mild retcon.

not im not exactly saying you made the wrong choice here, i can see that that guy would be trouble to handle, but dispite him being the problem, he wasnt wrong in that specific case

in all honesty, imho the better option was just to kick the dm's character and the player out of the game. the moment he said that he would kill any character that would try to leave town, he wouldnt have been welcome at my table, thats for sure

killer_monk
2014-05-23, 09:09 AM
I just hope I can learn from the mistakes I've made. If anyone else has any advice or comments on how to handle DMPCs with grace or how to handle Monstrous PCs without it getting out of hand, I'd love to hear it. And thank you all for all you've said thus far.

Story Four

After our last episode, which featured our Stu as a player, i think it's time we get back to JAZZ and all his problems.

The events in the story take place some time after the 10,000 orcs story. I still don't really enjoy DMing as much as playing, but back then i absolutely hated it. It involves my Dragonborn, but also involves a Bard, a Cleric and a Wizard.

So the DM got another go.

We start by heading to the Orc Hoardlands (I'd kept the Orc theme after the massive battle. Mostly because i didn't understand the rules, so writing the same stats on 50 encounters was the max of my abilities at the time.) to destroy some giant orc chief or loot something.

Now, after the battle of 10,000 my PC had started casting Levitate on literally anything that wasn't tied to the ground. I even had Ice as my breath weapon, so I'd just make myself a small iceberg, cast levitate and then ride it wherever i was going. I remember using a sail to steer it around. The other PCs would take turns riding "the berg" because our friendly DM said that i had to use my breath weapon every time it came up to keep it from melting, and that i couldn't sustain an iceberg large enough to carry more than myself and one other PC.

Now, all things considered, we were actually having fun! The DM wasn't screwing us, and we had our own little hover-wagon. Given, we had to stay close to the water to reconstitute our wagon, and we were in the far north, so just a bunch of pine trees.

Then the DM realized we were actually having fun...without JAZZ...

So he says, "10 colossal hellhounds breathing Death jump from the pine trees, roll initiative".

Then he turns to me and says, "the heat off their bodies immolates the pine trees instantly, this melts your iceberg and throws you to the ground".

So after using all out resources for the entire day (including healing surges) we have them down to like two hellhounds. We almost have the two final creatures dead when, suddenly, JAZZ appears and destroys them with a flick of his wrist.

He goes on to say that he didn't realize they would be that much of a challenge, and we shouldve been able to handle it. (Yes, he admits he summoned them to kill us.)

Now, at this point it gets a little hairy, because the DM starts to break the fourth wall in character and act as though JAZZ is actually the DM and vice versa. He does this for several minutes before "creating a dungeon" before our eyes.

So a broken down church appears in front of us. We're tasked with exploring it. So we walk inside. After some searching we encounter some ghouls.

Crap, we dont have anything to fight them with. All we have is encounters and at wills. And the first thing the DM/JAZZ does is kill the Bard, no save, with a ghoul's paralyze&coup de grace combo.

After we beat back the creatures, or i should say, after JAZZ shows off his stuff, he ressurects the bard and sends us on our way.

We end up making camp and finding a wounded Ranger girl. She turns out to be a succubus who eats the Bard's soul. No JAZZ save for that one.

So we're pretty much screwed, down a player, can't rest and are forced to fight a succubus and a stone giant army. We stop for the night and i ressurect half the group (i think it had to do with ritual casting again. The group just paid me, i did the rights and everything was back to normal. The Bard never came back though. I think he'd had enough for his first game.)

So there's another story of the Great and Mighty JAZZ.

Any questions or comments?

Also, has any edition or dragon magezine ever featured Death as a hellhound breath weapon? The DM swore it's legitimacy.

And what's all this about ritual casting i keep remembering? Is that something i just got mixed up or is that actually how it works?

You know, thinking back I'd probably give 4E another chance. It was pretty fun the way we played, and really that's what matters. Maybe I'm being too forgiving again...

Svata
2014-05-23, 09:14 AM
See, the reason this clown was playing with kids/new roleplayers is because no one with any prior experience in what RPGs are supposed to be like would tolerate this nonsense for more than a single session. I probably wouldn't last more than 15 minutes. That second story made me throw up a little.


I would have stuck around, if for no other reason than to Henderson the thing.

Angel Bob
2014-05-23, 11:00 AM
4E is designed to have a sort of "video game" feel to it, yeah. If that doesn't fit with your playstyle, then don't bother, but give it a shot if you enjoy that kind of thing.

However, note that 4E is specifically designed to be more balanced than previous editions, and not to include utterly gamebreaking options. A 3.5e wizard would be mega OP in 4E... which is possibly why your DM-from-Hell chose to play that edition.

Gamgee
2014-05-23, 11:27 AM
@ Gamgee: That story was hilarious. I've had an experience with a bad DM (the sort whose world was so open-ended that it had no plotline, yet somehow we were railroaded the entire time), but fortunately only one. I'm glad to see your experience prompted you to do better than he, instead of simply writing off the d20 experience.

Yea thankfully. The instant I seen the concept of an rpg in action (even if it was for a few minutes) set off an explosion of creativity in my brain. I somehow just knew the possibilities before me. To this day it has ruined video games for quite a few players who simply state video games can't compete. It probably helps my strongest point has always been telling stories. It was destiny I become GM. Thankfully many years later I got to be a player as well (many years). So I get to experience the other side of the screen.


I just hope I can learn from the mistakes I've made. If anyone else has any advice or comments on how to handle DMPCs with grace or how to handle Monstrous PCs without it getting out of hand, I'd love to hear it. And thank you all for all you've said thus far.


The fact that your aware is a big step in the right direction. To this day I don't like DMPC's, but often have to play one or my players want me to be one. It's a fine line of balancing. Just always remind yourself and question yourself. Oh and always try and look for new players, you would be surprised who is usually willing to try.

The Glyphstone
2014-05-23, 11:27 AM
From what I can tell, the DM was running D&D JAZZ Edition, so any player experiences with this DM are utterly unrelated to anything the actual game (3.5, 4e, whatever) might be like.

Notably, 4e has no instant death effects. Having your soul ripped out and devoured by a demon lord will do something like 10 ongoing damage and persistent daze, with a save to end it each turn. there are definitely no hellhound instant-death breath attacks.

killer_monk
2014-05-23, 04:52 PM
The thing that worries me most is that 4E doesn't really encourage Role playing, just Roll playing. My group loves MTG (They used to play a round or two while I read a chapter, checked obscure rules or did something otherwise time consuming.) so they may actually like 4E.

I'm just worried about the role playing aspect, since my group already doesn't really role play as much as I'd like. I just can't seem ro get them to do it, besides making a bunch of cheesy one-liners while they hit bad guys.

I would also love some stories from you guys about exciting experiences with DMPCs where they DIDN'T go horribly wrong. Since JAZZ is unfortunately my current standard.

Amaril
2014-05-23, 05:19 PM
I'm just worried about the role playing aspect, since my group already doesn't really role play as much as I'd like. I just can't seem ro get them to do it, besides making a bunch of cheesy one-liners while they hit bad guys.

The thing is, you can't make them roleplay if they don't already want to do it. There are players who don't enjoy that kind of thing, and just want to play a strategy game about hitting monsters, and while that's okay, it doesn't sound like that's what you want. The secret to fun gaming is to find people who already get enjoyment out of the same parts of the game you like, and stick to them like Sovereign Glue. If you want a lot of roleplaying, you'll need to play with people who make that a priority, and trying to turn your current players into those people when they really aren't is just a recipe for frustration and hard feelings.

I3igAl
2014-05-23, 05:44 PM
The thing that worries me most is that 4E doesn't really encourage Role playing, just Roll playing. My group loves MTG (They used to play a round or two while I read a chapter, checked obscure rules or did something otherwise time consuming.) so they may actually like 4E.

I'm just worried about the role playing aspect, since my group already doesn't really role play as much as I'd like. I just can't seem ro get them to do it, besides making a bunch of cheesy one-liners while they hit bad guys.

If you wanna get your players to role play more, you can try to invest them in the plot more by tying them to important NPCs or Factions. If your players are fans of Game of Thrones, you could look at how everyone is connected there:

-The murdervictim the characters found is actually one PCs uncle, therefore solving the crime becomes a personal vendetta.
-You are the true heir to the Earl. The final villain murdered him and took your heritage.
-If a PC is a member of a church, have some recurring NPCs as teachers, friends etc. in that church.

In the end you cannot dictate them how to play. If they prefer the tactics and math aspect of the game, it is their decision and you have to respect it. I'd try throw them some hooks from their background, if they wrote one and wait if they go with it or ignore it.

Kid Jake
2014-05-23, 06:21 PM
I would also love some stories from you guys about exciting experiences with DMPCs where they DIDN'T go horribly wrong. Since JAZZ is unfortunately my current standard.


I wouldn't necessarily call them DMPCs but since one of the big themes in my current M&M game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322592-quot-Let-s-get-this-straight-YOU-RE-the-sidekick!-quot-A-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-Camp-Journal) is building a super-team out of a group of survivors, criminals and everymen I've definitely got a few pet NPCs. Two in particular steal the show every time they appear: Bossman Chavenski, a Russian crimeboss that believes in talking loud and carrying a large gun and Lucky Dan (original name Mister Fortune, but nobody would call him that) a drunken idiot that is just plain immune to anything harmful.

I built Chavenski up as a badass a LOT before they finally met him, and when they did finally come face to face I rolled ridiculously well with the guy and ended up one-shotting an elite assassin that had nearly caused a TPK the last time he met the party and about a dozen other mooks that were standing next to the guy. Nearly every time Chavenski arrived he murdered everything in sight and then walked away from explosions in the background like an action hero.

Lucky Dan completely trivialized yet another near TPK just by stumbling in and ranting about the PCs calling him in the middle of the night. The PCs were bleeding to death and hiding for their lives when he stumbles in reeking of whiskey and the dozen or so gangsters that had been murdering the PCs opened fire on the new guy, since his power is basically 'No you don't!' things went badly for them and when it was all said and done after the ricochets and exploding guns there was only one guy left, who wisely decided to just walk around the drunk but was no match for the two extremely pissed off superhumans on the other side of him.

In both situations it would be well within their rights to complain about the NPCs stealing the show and I'd agree, but I 'd never have an NPC get involved unless explicitly asked. Lucky Dan was originally planned to be a recurring 'villain' but they immediately loved my drunken slurring and off-topic rants and didn't want to fight the guy because they kinda felt sorry for him. After seeing what he was actually capable of the PCs started taking care of the guy and doing what they could to make him happy, so when Lucky Dan stumbled in and saved their lives it wasn't the DM hogging the spotlight, it was just their unusual show of kindness and mercy paying off dividends(and dead Italians). When Chavenski started kicking in doors and mowing down Italians (damn did they hate Italians) it was because they'd specifically orchestrated a deal for him to do just that.

I'm ok with letting NPCs make the PCs stop and gawk once in a while, but I think it should always be because that's what the players want; not what the DM wants. I also think that if an NPC could easily solve an encounter for the PCs that they should be allowed to, but that getting the NPC to solve the encounter should be an encounter in itself. After all: 'when you're good at something, never do it for free.' Another example from my current game: The PCs have recovered what very well may be the most powerful superhuman alive, a teenage kid able to absorb and expend electricity in mind-boggling quantities. The kid nearly killed both of them and a shopping center completely on accident. Since they've recovered the kid (like a session ago) they've already started looking for ways to make the most of him but they've yet to find a situation that they need THAT much firepower and the risk it incurs. They know that the kid is going to make an awesome weapon, but they're still working on how to actually use him without getting themselves killed in the process, so they're committing ingame time and resources to offset the dangers. If and when he ever does save the day it'll be because they believed in him enough to arrange a situation where he can do just that, not because he just decided to.

The Glyphstone
2014-05-23, 09:26 PM
The thing that worries me most is that 4E doesn't really encourage Role playing, just Roll playing. My group loves MTG (They used to play a round or two while I read a chapter, checked obscure rules or did something otherwise time consuming.) so they may actually like 4E.

I'm just worried about the role playing aspect, since my group already doesn't really role play as much as I'd like. I just can't seem ro get them to do it, besides making a bunch of cheesy one-liners while they hit bad guys.

I would also love some stories from you guys about exciting experiences with DMPCs where they DIDN'T go horribly wrong. Since JAZZ is unfortunately my current standard.

It's also complete nonsense, since 4E doesn't encourage Roll playing any more than 3.5 did. From a strictly objective viewpoint, 3.5 is more 'rollplay' (which is a stupid, stupid elitist term, but we'll..."roll" with it), because of its strict emphasis on 'if you want it, pay skill points or a feat for it'. 4E doesn't force you to allocate character resources to non-combat abilities or stats...if you want to be an awesome professional cook, then you can say you are a professional cook. In 3.5, saying that without spending points to get ranks in Profession: Cook makes you a liar.

TLDR: Bad roleplayers are bad roleplayers, the system is irrelevant. 4E has its flaws, vast numbers of them, but 'less friendly to roleplaying' isn't one.

lytokk
2014-05-23, 09:46 PM
This is the DMPC I measure my standards by. In the end he did break some of my rules, but I never felt overshadowed or outdone by this guy. Took me a while to find all my notes from this campaign, but there's still going to be some gaps.


Azrul : LN Dwarven something. I never found out his class but all I know is he used a lot of the orb spells as well has an ability to absorb spell levels cast at him up to some number, and then turn around and refocus those in a touch attack. Never figured this guy out, thinking some sort of home brew. Joined the cast later in the game.
Kade: CG Halfling wizard, conjuration specialist, I think. I know he summoned a lot and really came in handy with teleportation.
Trent: NE Human Ninja 12/Ranger 1. My guy. Ended up squaring off against a lot of dragons and to show it took a level in ranger for track and favored enemy(dragon) because he really, really hated them. Really came in handy more than a few times. TWF with ninja-tos (was in another handbook, basically shortswords that did slashing instead of piercing) Also was trying to score with an elven princess, started as CE but moved to NE on his way to TN to woo the princess.
Draven: DMPC CN Drow Fighter. Basic Drizzt clone, cept with a more in your face personality. Worshiper of that good drow goddess who's name I can never spell. Illustreae or something like that.
Singer: I think was a Human Rogue, but he died on my first session.
Mardok: All my sheet says is cleric, but he was played by Singers player until the player left the game 1 session after Mardok's introduction due to personal reasons.

The whole game (for me) started with Singer busting Kade and Draven out of prison because they were unjustly charged with something. The whole time Singer is sneaking around, Draven says and does nothing. Singer gets in a tough spot and Singer himself gets out of it. No DMPC help, maybe a DM fudge, but no DMPC help. On their way out, they spot Trent in a cell, and after a small negotiation, the other players (in character) aren't up for risking it. As a player, I know why they should be skeptical, and if it was an NPC, no way they'd let him out. Draven decides "whats the harm" and breaks the lock so I can get out. This was the DM's way of getting out of a bad situation because he set up the introduction to be an uphill battle for my escape. Breaking one of my rules yes, but with the intention of fixing a mistake he made. He forced a decision on the players, that they themselves were alright with, even though their characters weren't. (I was being held on attempted murder charges but none of them knew it and my bluff was through the roof, none of them ever figured out I was lying about my name as well.) During that session of play Singer was visited by his god, god of trickery or something, drew 5 cards from a deck of many things, ended up turning evil, turning into a woman, summoning death, and then being held in stasis 500 miles in a random direction, which ended up being straight down. Needless to say, he was gone. He rolled out his cleric, we hired him at the end of the session, but then the player decided to quit.


In a much later session, the DM felt that his character needed some more powerful weapons. And as he had been rolling poorly for treasure for his character, his goddess visited him in view of all of us and gave him new scimitars. Now, we would have been pissed, but then the goddess gave my character 2 brand new ninja-tos, +2 and one of them adamantine. I don't know what either other character actually got, but I have to assume it was on par with what I received. I might have been actually getting less than the other party members because up to this point I had been taking things that were supposed to be straight up fights and turning them into one big skill challenge for me. There's some examples of this, but its not pertinent right now, but I'd be happy to give them, as one of them is still one of my favorite moments in gaming ever.

Now, here is the reason I have my tactics rule. We have to use this ancient dwarven hammer heirloom to be part of a ritual to destroy some orb of darkness, that an ancient red dragon was going to use to ascend to godhood. Hammer is a martial weapon, and anyone but a dwarf gets a -4 to attack with it on top of everything else. Part of the ritual is opening up a portal to the abyss and smashing the orb with the hammer while the portal was open. Only 1 of our party needed to swing the hammer, and the other 2 would handle whatever comes through the portal. I think I was level 6 or 7 at the time. Draven decides that Trent should be the one to swing the hammer, and we start to get into an argument about this. In game I point out that I can barely lift the thing (str of 12) let alone swing it. Out of game I point out I'm a dexterity melee, with a 3/4 BAB progression and 1 str, whereas Draven has proficiency, high str, and a 1/1 BAB. In the end, I swing the hammer and he fights whatever comes through. So me, with a wonderful +6 on my attack, and a -8 to hit with the hammer (coming to -2) can't roll a 12 to save my life, for 5 rounds. Of course, that's when the balor that came through the portal kills me, and draven is forced to pick up the hammer, smash the orb, and between him and the wizard, take it down. (it was a lower CR balor) Once again, DM realizes mistake, and the Drow goddess brings me back to life. At this point I pretty much become her first human follower, cause, ya know, I owe her 1. Using my tactics, no one would have died, portal sealed, everyone goes home happy. Of course then, my character would have ended up being a lot less interesting.

There's quite a few stories about this game, but nearly all of them are good. Never once did I feel outshadowed by his character. I never felt that he hogged the spotlight. If anyone, it was me, but that's why I end up DMing most of the time. His DMPC basically existed to drive the plot forward. Whenever we finished a story arc, we normally had no idea what to do with ourselves. So Draven would always point us toward an adventure. He'd be along for the ride, role play with us and really bring us into the world. My guy more often out-fought him, while the wizard did a lot of good support with his summons as well as damaging spells. Personalities and allignments in that game ran the gambit, but our characters all became friends and valued allies, which is part of the reason after a while the DM started changing my alignment.

So yeah, that's part of a good DMPC. I'm running another one in my current game right now and could share more about him as he's fresher in my memory.

Gamgee
2014-05-24, 01:31 AM
The reason I say to look for new players is even a single new addition can completely change the way the group reacts. Like a catalyst. I feel I needed to go more into this. In particular if you have problem players or at least some iffy players adding new people into the group can break up the dynamic of the group politics. They also come up with ideas you wouldn't think of which can lead to a lot of interesting moments. Finally it's just plain more fun with more people (up to an extent).

One of my players was so used to being the leader of the players in character he was slowly taking control of them in real life and making them incredibly miserable. As great as he was in game, out of game the power quickly went to his head and I was the only one capable of doing anything. So I did the best thing I could. I brought in more players and shattered the familiar dynamic, hell even tried some new games to get the other players interacting differently. Now he is quite bitter his hegemony over them is broken and hasn't been showing up to games unless they have a good chance of focusing on himself. Likewise the players are far happier with him gone a lot of the time.

I won't get into the details but he has been an iffy player his entire player career.

killer_monk
2014-05-24, 05:06 AM
It's also complete nonsense, since 4E doesn't encourage Roll playing any more than 3.5 did. From a strictly objective viewpoint, 3.5 is more 'rollplay' (which is a stupid, stupid elitist term, but we'll..."roll" with it), because of its strict emphasis on 'if you want it, pay skill points or a feat for it'. 4E doesn't force you to allocate character resources to non-combat abilities or stats...if you want to be an awesome professional cook, then you can say you are a professional cook. In 3.5, saying that without spending points to get ranks in Profession: Cook makes you a liar.

TLDR: Bad roleplayers are bad roleplayers, the system is irrelevant. 4E has its flaws, vast numbers of them, but 'less friendly to roleplaying' isn't one.

Maybe I should give it another try. It was unfortunately painted in a very poor light when I played, but we all know why that is...

Yes, in 3.x, and even pathfinder, just find that I never have enough skill points to quantify what I'd like my character to do. And God forbid you ever play a skill-fighter!

Actually, my 4E Dragonborn was the group chef! He'd cook something i dubbed "dragon chow" (basically it was beef jerky trail mix) and serve it to the group. He'd also use is ritual powers to "make it taste even better!". It was my first real role playing experience, though I couldn't do it around the problem DM.

killer_monk
2014-05-24, 05:22 AM
And I'm loving the stories lytokk. Ninjas are cool. Even played a ninja once. He was my DMPC the characters burned a wish on to give a proper buried. I'll even tell that story if requested!

I'd love to change up the group, but I tried my local comic shop and...well, they didn't seem too friendly. I tried to set up a PF table that also included our group as an "example of great play", but they seemed far more interested in Munchkin and Yu-Gi-Oh.

So getting new players is a bit challenging. How do you all normally do it?

Also, today's story is written. But it's also the last one I'll be able to post for a few days (i get my first holiday weekend off from work!), I'll continue to check in and write replies when possible, but you'll have to wait till Tuesday for another JAZZy story.

killer_monk
2014-05-24, 11:42 AM
Story Five
The next story actually involves another player who didnt much like me, and who in turn absolutely loved the Problem DM. This in turn would promote the DM, who would promote the player, who would promote the DM...

Now this cycle is awesome when it isn't applied by two people who's sole purpose is to slaughter the PC who's backstory you finished five minutes ago.

This story involves 1st edition, using 4E's races. This may seem weird, but when the DM is going to kill you pretty much regardless, it means a lot less. Oh, and we just got the bare bones of the races. No encounter powers, bonuses, or nice double +2s. Pretty much fluff. Unless the DM liked how you treated JAZZ...

So the classes were the Rogue (Myself), the Cleric (the player who didn't like me IRL), the Wizard (A good friend of mine), the Fighter (A mutual friend between myself and the one who didn't like me. Only reason Cleric was a player.)

So we start in. Now if you thought JAZZ was the only DMPC, you were wrong.

We start in a field with a halfling standing in front of us. He's a bit snobby, but eventually gets to us going to see his "master".

Now, the DM informs us of our correct choice in not fighting the level 100+ wizard halfling to whom we spoke to. Yeah, he's just bragging again.

So we end up in a big black castle, and before us "a 7ft tall man wreathed in flames, clad in black armor which has the symbol of the black rose printed on it and wielding a Greataxe" sits in a throne before us. A massive pile of treasure sits before him.

The Deathknight was a level 800+ fighter who had a Greataxe that could kill anything in any dimension. His name was ROC. Robert something Cessinger. Yes, another acronym. He was a "real" Deathknight, and was totally original in all his stats being 18, with a strength and constitution of like 24, by AD&D's standards.

I immediately stealth. It doesn't mean anything with this DM, but it's nice to hold good tactics.

So the Deathknight (Yes, he's a Deathknight of the Black Rose.) begins to ask us if we'll retrieve a magic ruby from a red dragon. Well, he actually demands it, but the death threats are practically second nature with the DM at this point.

He tells us the pile is magic items, all magic items. So i ask if i can start shuffling as much as i can into my bag from the backside. Apparently the guy had Trueseeing AND x-ray vision so i had to put it back, but that's kinda meh.

So everyone gets one magic item from the pile, which the DM rolls from AD&D's tables completely randomly. I get a cloak of Elvenkind. The Dwarf Fighter gets the (+20, 2d12 returning) Axe of the Dwarven Lords (Yes, the Artifact.), the Wizard gets a staff of the magi and i think the halfling gives him every wizard spell to date, and the lawful good cleric gets a +5 helm of alignment change. Which changes him to CE, and gives him the excuse to kill anyone he wants. (guess who!)

So we start our trek up the Dragon's Mountain. We fight through a bunch of stone giants (the Fighter kills them all in like 1-2 hits. I just scout and feel useless. The wizard also feels a bit useless. The cleric's AC is stupid high so he's the tank. Also has animate dead for some reason.)

So we get to a thin ledge, and a bunch of Goblins run down at us. Now i was scouting in my cloak, so i actually can hide. Ive been rolling rope out behind me and have it tide off after i saw the goblins. I head forward 20ft and say "i pull the rope tight, knocking the goblins off the 1ft wide ledge. Any checks?"

The DM, seeing im actually helping, immediately vetos my desire. Instead i end up tide up in my rope or something, being completely useless and taking hits.

The Fighter and Cleric then yell at me for sucking and doing nothing but soaking damage. Ignoring them, i continue scouting past a bunch of giants. I manage my way to the entrance into the mountain and let a rope down for them to climb up and bypass the giants. (DM's suggestion, so yes, it worked.)

Once inside we see "veins of mithril in the wall". The DM states the Dwarf immediately begins to froth at the mouth and pick away at the walls (the Axe's side effect is that the dwarf is more "dwarfy"). After knocking him out and dragging him a ways we see a camp of ~50 orcs in a circular room. I ask to sneak around and wack them with my scythe (yes, i know. But i was 14 and scythes are cool!) he allows me to take 6 turns to get there, forcing me to roll the entire way there. I finally fail my roll and almost immediately go negative from all the hits. The cleric (who didn't heal me earlier because he doesn't like me.) rushes to my side and the fighter kills everything in the room in a few turns.

I think, "hey, maybe he's going to be a nice guy since I've only helped the group!". Nope. After whispering in my ear "treasure is now split three ways" he sacrifices me, in front of our now laughing allies, to Bane. Immediately damning my character to hell and perma-killing me. So i back away from the game to go roll a new character, and blow off some steam that the DM is still laughing.

So i roll a snow elf paladin, with no magic items. I show up behind the group saying that i had been sent by the Deathknight. The Fighter starts calling my paladin a coward (paladin of kossuth, god of Fire!) i can't really back down after he starts insulting my god, and thats when it happens. I start to challenge him to an honorable duel...The fighter throws his Axe and immediately kills my paladin, doing like 40 damage.

Last time i ever played with that DM or group. Last time i played anything called "D&D" for three years.

So you tell me, what would you have done? I know i was probably being a big baby or a sore loser, but i had envested quite a bit of time into both characters, and to be laughed away from my own table was both humiliating and saddening. My friends had taken the DMs side, and in turn i lost people i thought were my friends. (except the wizard, who never spoke after the sacrifice. He just wanted to go home at that point. He never asked to play again.)

I could never play a snow elf paladin of fire again, even since i started playing Pathfinder i refuse to recreate the character. It was also the point were my PCs all became orphans, and avoided plot hooks. I guess this wouldve been the most scarring point i ever had in table top gaming. One which still bothers me to this day.

Questions or comments? Please share any and all opinions you have, either negative or positive.

AuraTwilight
2014-05-24, 06:13 PM
I can only sit here, dumbstruck, wondering why all these people had such a tremendous vendetta against you, personally. It's almost like all these stories were precision-striked against you.

veti
2014-05-24, 06:21 PM
Re your question about favouritism, a story or so back: I don't think it was wrong, so much as bad tactics. By letting the GF skip town to avoid the player-killer, you implicitly sent the signal that it's perfectly OK for him to kill everyone else. That's just silly.

I would've just made sure he didn't get the opportunity to murder a fellow PC; and if he worked really hard to create such an opportunity, I'd've invoked a direct divine intervention to stop him, just to spell out the message that Non-Consensual PvP Is Not Okay, Not Against Anyone, Right?


I think, "hey, maybe he's going to be a nice guy since I've only helped the group!". Nope. After whispering in my ear "treasure is now split three ways" he sacrifices me, in front of our now laughing allies, to Bane. Immediately damning my character to hell and perma-killing me. So i back away from the game to go roll a new character, and blow off some steam that the DM is still laughing.

So i roll a snow elf paladin, with no magic items. I show up behind the group saying that i had been sent by the Deathknight. The Fighter starts calling my paladin a coward (paladin of kossuth, god of Fire!) i can't really back down after he starts insulting my god, and thats when it happens. I start to challenge him to an honorable duel...The fighter throws his Axe and immediately kills my paladin, doing like 40 damage.

At this point in your story, I really can't imagine what else you were expecting. Did you think a character who'd just sacrificed a fellow PC to an evil god, and his friends who'd seen him do it and laugh, were going to play with a paladin? I mean, roll up the character - sure, you needed something to do - but putting work into the backstory is just something I wouldn't have bothered with, as it must've been obvious he could never have joined the campaign anyway - even excluding the whole "personal vendetta" thing.

gooddragon1
2014-05-24, 06:34 PM
Killer_monk:
You just can't make that kind of stuff up. I would have told the DM straight up that while they might have the imagination to tell a story... they certainly don't understand the point of making the game fun. Treating a player like garbage reflects poorly on the DM and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing this to you. Though honestly, if you know the personality of someone to be one that would permit carrying a grudge over into a game you should foresee this outcome (not easy at 14 but later in life). Congratulations though, I think you gained an ability score bonus to wisdom or at least to sense motive checks as a result of this experience.

Gamgee
2014-05-24, 06:52 PM
I got to say if I was playing with these "friends" I would be sorely tempted to punch them in the face and go. I would have quit much sooner though. Even if I had no idea how the game worked I wouldn't stand for that kind of treatment.

Alejandro
2014-05-24, 11:06 PM
I don't understand, partially, why you kept going back to such idiot psychopaths.

Let me ask, the actual player behind JAZZ, are they generally unhappy or unsuccessful in their life? From my past experiences, it sounds like JAZZplayer has basically nothing but their imaginary characters to be successful through.

Angel Bob
2014-05-24, 11:17 PM
I got to say if I was playing with these "friends" I would be sorely tempted to punch them in the face and go. I would have quit much sooner though. Even if I had no idea how the game worked I wouldn't stand for that kind of treatment.

You beat me to the, well, punch.

Seriously, though, it's hard to read that story without wanting to kick the ****ers in the face. goddragon1's right that you got a Wisdom boost out of it all, but if I were you, the other folks would've lost some teeth as well.

These sorts of stories make me so glad that the only kind of tabletop BS I've ever had to contend with is good-intentioned incompetency, as opposed to vindictive ****ery.

Arbane
2014-05-24, 11:51 PM
I don't understand, partially, why you kept going back to such idiot psychopaths.


In my limited experience, gamers would put up with INCREDIBLE amounts of jackwagonry from the other players as long as they get to play.

That said, getting your character sacrificed is usually God/the GM's way of telling you it's time to pack your books up and go.

Jornophelanthas
2014-05-25, 06:50 AM
The lesson to take away from that last anecdote (with the JAZZ DM and the cleric player) is to know when to walk away from a game.

If a majority of the group seem to be going out of their way to spite you (and actually seem to be enjoying it), be the better person and say: "I'm sorry, but I'm no longer having fun, so I won't be continuing this game." Then get up and leave. Even if the others laugh in your face, it is better to swallow that and leave, than to submit yourself to a few more hours of bullying.
My guess here is that the wizard player would likely have followed your example, even if the rest would have laughed in your face.

Also, I think you mentioned they were playing at your table (in you home?). Then the choice would also be up to you, as host, to allow them to continue playing or not. For example, if they don't mind your quitting the game, just let them finish for the night, and don't be host to that game again (since you won't be in it). However, if they start treating you badly for your decision to quit, you can simply ask them to leave now. You could have told them e.g. that they are free to continue their game, but without you and not in your home.

In all these examples, the most important thing is not to get angry (or at least not show it to them), and to speak your opinion in a strong but polite manner. And once you make a decision, don't change it immediately when people start reacting (negatively) to it.

Alejandro
2014-05-25, 10:19 AM
Someone needs to tell the JAZZ player that:

- Ultimately, no one thinks any more of him (the player) because of JAZZ
- A sign of an actual mature, functioning person is the ability to consider and empower others, not just the self
- If he/she really wants to impress the other gamers, start a new character, in a new game, at first level, with no JAZZ, and build up a successful and interesting character, within that game and table's rules.

If they refuse, then they weren't ever really a gamer, just a small pile of ego, and can be safely disregarded.

I3igAl
2014-05-26, 07:19 AM
Another story of a highly incompetent GM and dickish players.

The only way to handle such situations would have been to tell the other players in real life, that you do not want to play this way and do not tolerate such actions. If they continue playing this way, walking away is the only thiing you can do.

When we were like 13-14 I(GM) had a player, whose green haired monk liked to murder the other PCs for the sole puropose of making shure his character was the strongest. After I tolerated this playstyle for a few sessions(pretty bad but I wasn't as experienced as I am now), I just forbid any PVP. He tried again multiple times and I just had him fumble. The player, otherwise a great roleplayer but with the obsession of having the strongest character and playing typical munhkinny concepts, stopped soon and that character became the longest played character we had, reaching 14th level in 3.x later on IIRC.

DM Nate
2014-05-26, 07:46 AM
I usually handle unresolvable conflicts in this fashion. (http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20090120.png)

Trunamer
2014-05-26, 04:01 PM
So getting new players is a bit challenging. How do you all normally do it?
I found my current group via Pen and Paper Games (http://www.penandpapergames.com).


Also, has any edition or dragon magezine ever featured Death as a hellhound breath weapon? The DM swore it's legitimacy.
Not that I know of, but then I haven't even touched nearly every magazine issue and splatbook. If you looked hard enough, you could probably find stats for mildly spicy jell-o shots in some issue of Dungeon or Dragon.


And what's all this about ritual casting i keep remembering? Is that something i just got mixed up or is that actually how it works?
To cast a ritual, you need three things:


The ritual itself in your ritual book. Conceptually, this is like the 3e wizard's spell book.
The Ritual Caster feat, and the relevant skill. (Arcana, nature, or religion, depending on the particular ritual.) Several classes get these feats for free.
Cash.



I would also love some stories from you guys about exciting experiences with DMPCs where they DIDN'T go horribly wrong. Since JAZZ is unfortunately my current standard.

...

You know, thinking back I'd probably give 4E another chance. It was pretty fun the way we played, and really that's what matters. Maybe I'm being too forgiving again...
The following story, which only dates back a year and change, may give you some peace of mind:

After experiencing yet another disappointment involving a my-way-or-the-highway DM, a GitP forumite suggested I give 4e a try. Other Giant edition warriors speculated that I'd get bored with 4e, but I was fed up the ill-conceived house rules and arbitrary restrictions that seemed endemic to D&D at that point, so I figured that maybe 4e was the magic pill I needed.

Anyway, I found a group on P&P Games. They didn't immediately invite me to play, but suggested that I sit in on a game session. So I showed up at the DM's house, and watched them battle a young green dragon -- apparently the dragon was the last step of their current quest, which is one reason they didn't invite me to actually play. It was a long and tense fight that took place in a grove of trees that wept blood; I remember the dragon taking sips of the blood to do...something that I don't think was ever fully explained. The group had a paladin, but no dedicated healer, so the PCs were chugging healing potions like crazy. The party finally prevailed, but not before the wizard was eviscerated by the raging dragon.

At the end of the session, the DM offered me a spot around the table, and I accepted. I was a bit put off by the bloody tree cool-aid thing -- it looked like some of the bogus BS that my past DMs had made up "to make things challenging" -- but the other players seemed to take it in stride. The real problem was that the players insisted they needed a healer, and tried to talk me into making one. They said the wizard would be rezzed because she was involved in the campaign's story, and was also a beloved character. But I was tired of the 'New guy plays healbot' practice of hazing, so I stood my ground and made a tiefling warlock. (I didn't really understand how 4e healing works yet, or how healbotting isn't really a thing in 4e.) The other players seemed real bummed about my decision, so I came up with a solution: hire an NPC cleric!

Yes, I really said that. :smalleek:

So the first session of 4e that I actually played began with me getting introed to the party, and then visiting the local temple of the Raven Queen. (4e Goddess of Death But Not Undeath Or Other Creepy Evil Things.) After negotiating with the temple's head priest for a bit, he offers us the service of Raven, his most advanced acolyte, for the small fee of 5 gp per day. At this point, warning bells are beginning to go off in my head, considering the names of this acolyte and her deity. Oh, and also: she's mute and "super hot." But it's too late to reconsider my idea -- the deal's been struck, and the other players seem happy just to finally have a dedicated healer.

So with Raven in tow, we head off on my first 4e quest: a good ol' fashioned dungeon under a ruined city. I was still nervous about what shenanigans the DM would pull using Raven. To my surprise, the first time he called for initiative, he said "Oh yeah, I've got enough dice to roll, so who wants to control Raven?" The other players didn't want an extra character, so me already feeling responsible for this imminent DMNPC, I volunteered. I figured maybe I could 'accidentally' get her killed once the Mary Sue started oozing from her. But as it turned out, she didn't have any special powers or items, and the DM didn't question anything I had her do. In fact when the wizard asked for healing, we discovered that Raven wasn't even a superb healer. At the time, the details went over my head, but later I learned that Raven lacked the extra healing dice that 4e clerics normally get.

After that fight, the players wanted to know why she wasn't a 'real' cleric, but the DM wouldn't tell them. The paladin got increasingly irritated, and after an Insight (aka Sense Motive) check, he became convinced that Raven was hiding something from us. All the DM would say is "Raven huddles into herself and appears frightened." After another encounter of only passable heals from Raven, and the paladin getting ever more irate, I started to feel bad for Raven -- against my own good sense! So I decided to play the good cop to the paladin's bad cop -- my warlock invented a story about how a devil had tricked him into a life-ruining deal, and so he understood that everyone has secrets and she didn't have to tell hers. The DM was so impressed by my performance that he gave me a huge bonus to my Bluff check, which I then passed. Raven's response was simply to whisper in my ear one word: "Pedophile."

From there, we discovered that the head priest of Raven's temple was in fact a pedophile, and in reality worshipped Asmodeus. I decided that the story I had invented to tell Raven was my character's actual backstory -- I hadn't really thought about it until that point -- and my character made it his personal obligation to rid the world of the false priest so that Raven felt safe enough to talk out loud again. When she finally did start speaking, she was able to use the cleric's usual extra healing dice, and Raven became an even more important part of our party. (The cleric's standard healing power is called Healing Word, so the DM had decided that Raven could activate it with a silent prayer, but not to full effect.)

Raven never became the DM's pet or anything horrible, so sometime later, I asked him why he had named Raven what was essentially her own deity's name, to which he replied "Oh, I just suck at naming things." And he does, but is otherwise a great DM. :smallsmile:

And now it's more than a year later, and I'm still loving this group and 4e!

lytokk
2014-05-26, 05:14 PM
I found my current group via Pen and Paper Games (http://www.penandpapergames.com).


Not that I know of, but then I haven't even touched nearly every magazine issue and splatbook. If you looked hard enough, you could probably find stats for mildly spicy jell-o shots in some issue of Dungeon or Dragon.


To cast a ritual, you need three things:


The ritual itself in your ritual book. Conceptually, this is like the 3e wizard's spell book.
The Ritual Caster feat, and the relevant skill. (Arcana, nature, or religion, depending on the particular ritual.) Several classes get these feats for free.
Cash.



The following story, which only dates back a year and change, may give you some peace of mind:

After experiencing yet another disappointment involving a my-way-or-the-highway DM, a GitP forumite suggested I give 4e a try. Other Giant edition warriors speculated that I'd get bored with 4e, but I was fed up the ill-conceived house rules and arbitrary restrictions that seemed endemic to D&D at that point, so I figured that maybe 4e was the magic pill I needed.

Anyway, I found a group on P&P Games. They didn't immediately invite me to play, but suggested that I sit in on a game session. So I showed up at the DM's house, and watched them battle a young green dragon -- apparently the dragon was the last step of their current quest, which is one reason they didn't invite me to actually play. It was a long and tense fight that took place in a grove of trees that wept blood; I remember the dragon taking sips of the blood to do...something that I don't think was ever fully explained. The group had a paladin, but no dedicated healer, so the PCs were chugging healing potions like crazy. The party finally prevailed, but not before the wizard was eviscerated by the raging dragon.

At the end of the session, the DM offered me a spot around the table, and I accepted. I was a bit put off by the bloody tree cool-aid thing -- it looked like some of the bogus BS that my past DMs had made up "to make things challenging" -- but the other players seemed to take it in stride. The real problem was that the players insisted they needed a healer, and tried to talk me into making one. They said the wizard would be rezzed because she was involved in the campaign's story, and was also a beloved character. But I was tired of the 'New guy plays healbot' practice of hazing, so I stood my ground and made a tiefling warlock. (I didn't really understand how 4e healing works yet, or how healbotting isn't really a thing in 4e.) The other players seemed real bummed about my decision, so I came up with a solution: hire an NPC cleric!

Yes, I really said that. :smalleek:

So the first session of 4e that I actually played began with me getting introed to the party, and then visiting the local temple of the Raven Queen. (4e Goddess of Death But Not Undeath Or Other Creepy Evil Things.) After negotiating with the temple's head priest for a bit, he offers us the service of Raven, his most advanced acolyte, for the small fee of 5 gp per day. At this point, warning bells are beginning to go off in my head, considering the names of this acolyte and her deity. Oh, and also: she's mute and "super hot." But it's too late to reconsider my idea -- the deal's been struck, and the other players seem happy just to finally have a dedicated healer.

So with Raven in tow, we head off on my first 4e quest: a good ol' fashioned dungeon under a ruined city. I was still nervous about what shenanigans the DM would pull using Raven. To my surprise, the first time he called for initiative, he said "Oh yeah, I've got enough dice to roll, so who wants to control Raven?" The other players didn't want an extra character, so me already feeling responsible for this imminent DMNPC, I volunteered. I figured maybe I could 'accidentally' get her killed once the Mary Sue started oozing from her. But as it turned out, she didn't have any special powers or items, and the DM didn't question anything I had her do. In fact when the wizard asked for healing, we discovered that Raven wasn't even a superb healer. At the time, the details went over my head, but later I learned that Raven lacked the extra healing dice that 4e clerics normally get.

After that fight, the players wanted to know why she wasn't a 'real' cleric, but the DM wouldn't tell them. The paladin got increasingly irritated, and after an Insight (aka Sense Motive) check, he became convinced that Raven was hiding something from us. All the DM would say is "Raven huddles into herself and appears frightened." After another encounter of only passable heals from Raven, and the paladin getting ever more irate, I started to feel bad for Raven -- against my own good sense! So I decided to play the good cop to the paladin's bad cop -- my warlock invented a story about how a devil had tricked him into a life-ruining deal, and so he understood that everyone has secrets and she didn't have to tell hers. The DM was so impressed by my performance that he gave me a huge bonus to my Bluff check, which I then passed. Raven's response was simply to whisper in my ear one word: "Pedophile."

From there, we discovered that the head priest of Raven's temple was in fact a pedophile, and in reality worshipped Asmodeus. I decided that the story I had invented to tell Raven was my character's actual backstory -- I hadn't really thought about it until that point -- and my character made it his personal obligation to rid the world of the false priest so that Raven felt safe enough to talk out loud again. When she finally did start speaking, she was able to use the cleric's usual extra healing dice, and Raven became an even more important part of our party. (The cleric's standard healing power is called Healing Word, so the DM had decided that Raven could activate it with a silent prayer, but not to full effect.)

Raven never became the DM's pet or anything horrible, so sometime later, I asked him why he had named Raven what was essentially her own deity's name, to which he replied "Oh, I just suck at naming things." And he does, but is otherwise a great DM. :smallsmile:

And now it's more than a year later, and I'm still loving this group and 4e!

I have to say, that's less of a DMPC and more like an NPC with a plot hook attached. Still, an Excellent story. Maybe its just my view that Raven was an NPC that never really crossed into the DMPC territory, but was nonetheless a very good plot character.

killer_monk
2014-05-27, 05:48 AM
To answer a few questions:

To be fair, no. I hadn't expected much from the other players at that point. But I also hadn't expected them to go out of their way to kill me either.

I should've left the group. But like someone else said, most people will put up with incredible jackwagonry as long as they get to play.

I will look into pen and paper. Maybe I'll have some luck!

It was younger at the time, and made mistakes regarding the group. But I also have near limitless patience. So maybe I'm at fault for even trying for so long.

The next story isn't written yet. Though I do have it in mind. I'll try to get to it today. Any other stories or comments in the mean time?

Trunamer
2014-05-27, 03:11 PM
I have to say, that's less of a DMPC and more like an NPC with a plot hook attached. Still, an Excellent story. Maybe its just my view that Raven was an NPC that never really crossed into the DMPC territory, but was nonetheless a very good plot character.
Eh, the definition of DMPC is somewhat subjective, but I think the spirit of killer_monk's request was clear. ("DMPCs that don't go horribly wrong.")

killer_monk
2014-05-27, 05:21 PM
Eh, the definition of DMPC is somewhat subjective, but I think the spirit of killer_monk's request was clear. ("DMPCs that don't go horribly wrong.")

I did enjoy the story. Bravo!

Sixth Story

This story contains the absolute luckiest rolls I have ever seen in any game. So bear with it.

This one takes place in the same wacky 4e race using 1st edition set as the previous story.

This one is about just me and a friend of mine. No other players. It occurred a short while before the last story, and helped in culminating my then growing hatred for D&D.

I wanted to be an earth genasi monk, and my friend a Tiefling paladin. (he's the Tiefling warlock from awhile back. He really likes Tieflings...)

So we start in. Now, we are walking along a road and after awhile we come across an abandoned church. The celler doors have massive runic plates stripped from the hinges, and an air of death and decay poors forth.

So we proceed forward, using my quarterstaff as a 6" pole. Poking through the fog we eventually find a decline leading to ancient ruins. I move with the Tiefling in tow. There are three passages ahead. I say, "wait here while i scout ahead". (monks were okay scouts, so it made since.)

After awhile in game of walking through this massive hall i ask the DM how far I've gone. He says "several miles". So im starting to wonder.

Meantime the Tiefling is being assaulted by creatures of the night. After realizing they're vampires, he grabs his flasks of oil, covers himself and ignites himself. The vampires refuse to touch him and simply wait it out.

After i start seeing red eyes lurking in the shadows i immediately run back to the entrance (monk speed) and make it there in time for the Tiefling to ignite himself one last time.

I throw the Tiefling a bow and a few arrows after dodging vampires for a turn. And the biggest one, who's wearing plate, walks forward towards us to start his monolog.

Tiefling calls an arrow to his heart. DM, feeling invincible, says, "sure, but only on a natural 20."

Tiefling rolls: 20.

DM stammers for a moment before saying, "the plate stops the arrow! It doesn't stake him'"

I say, "i roll to hit the base of the arrow, and force it into his heart."

Rolls: 20.

DM finally admits he turns to ash. But not before the other vampires are enraged. With my mighty monk speed i grab the vampire's plate and items and GTFO, carrying the Tiefling on my back.

After awhile the Tiefling has to carry me, since the DM says I'm too tired. He puts on the plate, and the DM congratulates him on his new +5 ethereal plate that allows one to turn ethereal a certain number of times a day.

I think i got a ring of water walking. Not bad. Either that or I had water walking as a monk. Either or.

So we begin running when the vampires start following. I ignite a branch and set the woods ablaze. This apparently destroys a small village and kills a bunch of people, shifting my alignment towards Nuetral, and am warned about losing my monk privileges.

So we eventually use my water walking to run across a lake and into a walled town. We then explain to the local temple that vampires will be here soon. The paladin does the talking and walking.

We eventually dig a mote and fill it with holy water from the church. We then wait for arrival.

The holy water freezes from a 100+ level vampire wizard. He begins going on about revenge for the level 75+ vampire general we killed.

We eventually escape town through the bloodshed and travel by day. After about two days the Paladin stops and asks if he can ask his god for his holy avenger in his hour of need.

DM rolls %: 95.
He gets his holy avenger.

Now, he has all +5 equipment and is like level 3 or 4 now. Im still level 1 because i "haven't beaten a monk of higher level". I also have no items other than my ring of water walking.

So i ask if i can pray to the elder gods of the world for a weapon capable of beating back the undead hord.

DM rolls %: 100.
Seeing the roll i cant wait, as the DM has always withheld any really good items from me. He already gave the paladin his items and I've gotta get something good, right?

Wrong.

"A zipper appears and zips open in the air. Out steps JAZZ."

My face goes from joy to hate in nothing flat. I ask for an explanation. I was fairly specific in my request. I really wanted an item to make me feel less useless, not a problem from some hopped up DMPC.

He says, "JAZZ is the most perfect weapon in existence. You rolled 100%. Here's your prize!"

Disappointed, i begin to talk to JAZZ.

DM: Magic jar.

Yes, once again he has magic jarred my PC with no save. Meaning any action he doesn't like can be negated.

After getting no items and having a pointless conversation with JAZZ. He "permits" me to cast a spell, but it ages me a 100 years per use. The spell turns vampires back into their humanoid selves.

So I'm off with a one use spell to end them all.

Long story short we have to fight a BBEG Cleric of an ancient evil pantheon. Paladin calls down the divine wrath of Bahamut.

DM rolls %: 100.

Rolls his eyes as his cleric BBEG gets smote.

He throws away his dice and gets a new set out.

The paladin gets boosted to like 17th level and is given a crap ton of magic items. A high level monk is supposed to show me a trick, but when the DM rolls the %, i get nothing.

So, killing myself I turn back the entire vampire ancient civilization as my great final act. That ends the character and I prep for next week's game, which I do not yet know will be my last.

So tell me, i may be biased, but do you think the DM was playing favorites? Or at least playing least favorites?

This ties into me playing favorites with my GF, because i know the feeling of being left out.

Or maybe im just being a whiney brat. There's always a chance i was so biased i couldn't really appreciate the Spell i was given. Or maybe the ring of waterwalking was supposed to be that good in 1st edition?

Am i missing something?

As always, questions or comments?

Finally, this is my last real encounter with JAZZ. I quit after the next session (see story 5). So i have no more stories about him. I do have another as the DM as a PC again, (er...before) however.

Any requests?

veti
2014-05-27, 06:35 PM
I did enjoy the story. Bravo!

Sixth Story

(snip)

Or maybe the ring of waterwalking was supposed to be that good in 1st edition?

Whatever the heck you were playing, it wasn't "1st edition". There's nothing in 1e rules about praying to your gods to get cool stuff - that's purely DM fiat. And there's nothing about having to beat monks of higher level to progress as a monk, until you get to something like 12th level.

But the biggest "whaaaat?" in that story is where you accidentally start a forest fire. In 1e, monks are (for some random reason) actually forbidden to use burning oil as a weapon. (They're the only class that's not allowed that - even paladins can do it.) The DM should have warned you if you were doing something forbidden, he should have warned you if there was a likelihood of the fire getting out of control, and the alignment shift is screwed up in so many ways I'm not even going to start on it.

Finally, a 100th-level vampire wizard is not a level-appropriate encounter for a 1st level monk and a 4th level paladin, no matter how cool their gear. He could literally kill both of you with a word, no saving throw. (Actually, any wizard above about 17th level could do that. The extra levels up to something in the mid-20s just give him more options.) And above 30th level, there is no such thing as "magic resistance" either.

Jornophelanthas
2014-05-27, 06:42 PM
So tell me, i may be biased, but do you think the DM was playing favorites? Or at least playing least favorites?

This ties into me playing favorites with my GF, because i know the feeling of being left out.

Or maybe im just being a whiney brat. There's always a chance i was so biased i couldn't really appreciate the Spell i was given. Or maybe the ring of waterwalking was supposed to be that good in 1st edition?

Am i missing something?

As always, questions or comments?

I have two comments here.

First, you should not have returned after this session. Apparently this DM actively disliked you and enjoyed giving you exactly the opposite of what you wanted. The only reason JAZZ appeared was because he already knew you didn't like JAZZ. It seemed like his entire point in the game was to humiliate you by humiliating your character and then taking it away from you in the end, in the most humiliating way he could think of. He probably would have ripped your character sheet to shreds upon your monk's demise if he had thought of it. This was not gaming, this was bullying disguised as gaming (and your tiefling-loving friend was probably left clueless about it).

This also shows that the possible favoritism towards your girlfriend does not compare to this. Yes, it probably was slightly across the line of favoritism, but it was not deliberate or malicious towards the others. So don't feel guilty about it. Especially don't feel guilty about being unfair to JAZZ-DM, who never was fair to you in the first place.

Second, a piece of advice I can give you is to not ask for "questions and comments" in the end, thus ending every story in a question mark. If you have a story to tell, tell a story. If you have a question to ask, ask the question. But asking what others think of the things you just said gives an impression of insecurity (even if you're not insecure). So please don't make it a habit in anything but a presentation you deliver to your audience in person.

Alejandro
2014-05-27, 07:31 PM
I'm actually starting to think that you're making up the JAZZ stories, since they are so far out there. If for some reason they are true though, there's something mentally/emotionally wrong with the JAZZ player.

Trunamer
2014-05-27, 07:44 PM
This apparently destroys a small village and kills a bunch of people, shifting my alignment towards Nuetral, and am warned about losing my monk privileges.
lol, at first I thought your first DM was just clueless about 4e...


Now, he has all +5 equipment and is like level 3 or 4 now. Im still level 1 because i "haven't beaten a monk of higher level". I also have no items other than my ring of water walking.

But now I think he's just clueless about D&D. Druids had that weird kind of Highlander advancement thing going on in 2e, but monks never did to my knowledge.

In any case, your first DM is one of those gamers who advertise their game as 'D&D' to draw in unsuspecting players, and then just makes **** up. He throws in a bit of game terminology to make is seem like he's running a D&D game, but he's just freeforming (and not well) his own personal power fantasy.

Yeah, it's sad and pathetic, but it's a thing.

Anyway, relax. You don't play favorites when you DM, and you don't impose Mary Sue / Gary Stu, so chill out and enjoy the ride dude! A certain amount of introspection is healthy, and it's good practice to ask for player input. But constantly worrying about your campaign when you have happy players isn't just unhealthy -- it's probably irritating to them.

Thrudd
2014-05-27, 08:24 PM
Whatever the heck you were playing, it wasn't "1st edition". There's nothing in 1e rules about praying to your gods to get cool stuff - that's purely DM fiat. And there's nothing about having to beat monks of higher level to progress as a monk, until you get to something like 12th level.

But the biggest "whaaaat?" in that story is where you accidentally start a forest fire. In 1e, monks are (for some random reason) actually forbidden to use burning oil as a weapon. (They're the only class that's not allowed that - even paladins can do it.) The DM should have warned you if you were doing something forbidden, he should have warned you if there was a likelihood of the fire getting out of control, and the alignment shift is screwed up in so many ways I'm not even going to start on it.

Finally, a 100th-level vampire wizard is not a level-appropriate encounter for a 1st level monk and a 4th level paladin, no matter how cool their gear. He could literally kill both of you with a word, no saving throw. (Actually, any wizard above about 17th level could do that. The extra levels up to something in the mid-20s just give him more options.) And above 30th level, there is no such thing as "magic resistance" either.

Actually, there are guidelines in 1e DMG for asking for deity intervention. The exact nature of that intervention are completely left up to the DM, of course, but the wording is "allow a straight 10% chance that some
creature will be sent to his or her aid if this is the first time the character
has asked for help." They don't get a wish granted, or gifted powerful items, or anything like that.

There are a limited number of monks of 8th level and above. Before that, they level normally. Druids were the same way.

Overall, I agree that it sounds like these people have poor comprehension of the rules of any edition. Almost every DM ruling I hear of in these stories exhibits misreading of the written rules, the spirit of the rules, or both.

If the point of these stories is to ask for advice about how to avoid these types of games in the future, my advice would be to read the rule books carefully and thoroughly if you are going to be the DM. Listen to some podcasts or watch some games of actual play, or join in a game with another group that actually knows the rules of the game, before you decide to run your own. Actually, play with almost any other group, I can't imagine you would run into this sort of thing ever again, that is how out-there these stories are.

Sith_Happens
2014-05-28, 12:52 AM
Oh, yeah, like THAT'S likel....

O_O

...I have to admit, you're making a strong case.

Eh, while JAZZ is certainly in the running for Most Pointlessly Excessive and Stupid Statblock, you don't get any more Sue than a literal author avatar on a crusade to remake all of the GM's favorite fictional universes in his image. So far JAZZ hasn't even so much as--


Now, at this point it gets a little hairy, because the DM starts to break the fourth wall in character and act as though JAZZ is actually the DM and vice versa. He does this for several minutes before "creating a dungeon" before our eyes.

--never mind.:smalleek:


Notably, 4e has no instant death effects. Having your soul ripped out and devoured by a demon lord will do something like 10 ongoing damage and persistent daze, with a save to end it each turn.

This just seems so quotable to me for some reason.

DM Nate
2014-05-28, 06:23 AM
To be fair to JAZZ and [Marty], I too wrote self-projection stories where I was the youngest captain in Starfleet, saved the Enteprise, yadda yadda yadda...but I wrote them WHEN I WAS TWELVE.

Not sure what these guys' excuses are.

I3igAl
2014-05-28, 10:16 AM
I'm wondering if JAZZ-GM nowadays is kinda ashamed of those games and looks back at that times with a mix of nostalgia and embarassment or if he still is on his JAZZ trip adding new feats of power to this character.

I'm also wondering how he would react, if he knew what everyone here thinks of his playstyle.

prufock
2014-05-28, 10:49 AM
The JAZZ stories are both infuriating and hilarious, like a really bad movie. I can't tell you what you should have done, I can only tell you what I would have done. Just like a really bad movie, you have to make your own entertainment out of it.

You mock it.

Mercilessly and shamelessly, mock everything about it that you hate. I would probably have started off by assuming he was a Transformer, and asked him to turn into a Porsche. I would probably ask if he would like a nice polish with turtle wax, and wonder why his voice sounds like a scat singer. How fast can you go? Can I take you for a drive? How is Optimus doing?

Failing that, I would have started to refer to him as "ugly" or "smelly" and ran with it for a while.

And I would definitely bring him back when you DM, as an inside joke if you're still gaming with some of the same people. Same character, but now he's a bumbling buffoon. He only THINKS he has incredible power.

killer_monk
2014-05-28, 11:30 AM
I'm wondering if JAZZ-GM nowadays is kinda ashamed of those games and looks back at that times with a mix of nostalgia and embarassment or if he still is on his JAZZ trip adding new feats of power to this character.

I'm also wondering how he would react, if he knew what everyone here thinks of his playstyle.

He no longer DMs, although he still thinks JAZZ is the greatest thing ever. He also taunts me about "still having your Dragonborn's soul magic jarred" (says this as though he's JAZZ.)

He knows it pisses me off too. Especially since my Dragonborn was probably my longest played character. He made it level 1-21 in 4e. Didn't make the last few levels after the rest of the party died/quit/retired.

nedz
2014-05-28, 11:56 AM
I'm wondering if JAZZ-GM nowadays is kinda ashamed of those games and looks back at that times with a mix of nostalgia and embarrassment or if he still is on his JAZZ trip adding new feats of power to this character.

I'm also wondering how he would react, if he knew what everyone here thinks of his playstyle.

I keep expecting him to turn up in this thread :smalleek:
I'm not sure if it was just lack of life experience or an example of bullying that led to these stories.

AuraTwilight
2014-05-28, 02:48 PM
He no longer DMs, although he still thinks JAZZ is the greatest thing ever. He also taunts me about "still having your Dragonborn's soul magic jarred" (says this as though he's JAZZ.)

He knows it pisses me off too. Especially since my Dragonborn was probably my longest played character. He made it level 1-21 in 4e. Didn't make the last few levels after the rest of the party died/quit/retired.

Take his power away from him and just invoke Death of the GM.

"Haha, what? No, that never happened." If he complains, just pretend those sessions played out entirely differently than they ever did, and act completely ignorant of JAZZ's existence whenever it comes up. When he tries to explain just act bored. "Oh. Huh. I still think my Dragonborn is cooler. He killed Tiamat once. He is literally the best Dragonborn, infact."

Arbane
2014-05-28, 03:12 PM
He no longer DMs, although he still thinks JAZZ is the greatest thing ever. He also taunts me about "still having your Dragonborn's soul magic jarred" (says this as though he's JAZZ.)


My advice is to say in a monotone: "Yes. You totally defeated me with your clever strategy of having put arbitrarily larger numbers on your character sheet. Well done. *golf clap*."

killer_monk
2014-05-29, 05:28 AM
As much as I'd love to kick the DM to the curb. I also have to tolerate it.

Did anyone else have any cool stories they'd care to share? I'd love to hear more on DMPCs who didn't suck.

prufock
2014-05-29, 06:26 AM
As much as I'd love to kick the DM to the curb. I also have to tolerate it.

Why? Tell me you're not still gaming with this guy!

If you are, I still advocate the mockery route if you're the DM. JAZZ walks out of the woods to help the party out, but he's got his clothes on backwards. He thinks he has great power, but actually most of what he does is prestidigitation or similar low-level spells, and nothing ever works properly. Make him the comic relief, but annoying as well. In the climax, he trips and falls into a sphere of annihilation or something.

Jornophelanthas
2014-05-29, 06:48 AM
Why? Tell me you're not still gaming with this guy!

If you are, I still advocate the mockery route if you're the DM. JAZZ walks out of the woods to help the party out, but he's got his clothes on backwards. He thinks he has great power, but actually most of what he does is prestidigitation or similar low-level spells, and nothing ever works properly. Make him the comic relief, but annoying as well. In the climax, he trips and falls into a sphere of annihilation or something.

Are the other players really going to enjoy being an audience to this? I hardly think so. All you will do is derail your own campaign.

A far better way to get back at this DM is to just punish his characters when they do lethally stupid things.

For example, if he ever threatens to kill other player characters or NPCs, see if there's a chance that the town guard overhears him, arrests him and fines him for a decent amount of gold. If he actually starts a fight with lethal damage (against a PC or NPC) inside a town, have him arrested and sentenced to spend a night in jail.
If he tries to resist (e.g. by attacking the guards), give him a fighting chance to either escape or beat them. However, if he actually attacks a guard and gets away with it, he should expect "WANTED"-posters with his name on it to appear within a few days, and guard patrol sizes to double. If he actually killed a town guard, he should expect a manhunt going after him. the party. (Hint: bounty hunters tend to have class levels, and could well be tougher than the party.)

Another example: If he decides to jump into a dragon's throat again, have the dragon use its breath weapon. In this specific case, you could even disallow a saving throw. ("You are inside the dragon's throat. That's where the fire breath starts. You have no place to even try to avoid it. Take full damage.") You have absolutely no obligation to try to save his character's life if he places it in harm's way himself. (Just don't cheat by making up deadly things on the spot.)

Also, in your campaign, JAZZ does not exist, has never existed and will never exist. If he refers to JAZZ while playing in your campaign, tell him there is no such thing in this universe. If his characters talks about JAZZ, have NPCs react as if they think his character is delusional or insane (or a blasphemer). If he actually wants to play a cleric of a god that is just a poorly disguised JAZZ, tell him no (and also tell him which gods he can choose). The DM makes up the setting.

lytokk
2014-05-29, 08:17 AM
Well, I've got a few other DMPC stories, but they relate to a DMPC I'm currently running, of course he started out as a nameless NPC who was thrown in for some comic relief while I actually had in mind another DMPC to run.

The first DMPC as I stated, started out as a nameless NPC. The party had just found the unconscious body of an ogre in a field far off of the caravan they were travelling with. After the wagon train made camp for the night, the priests of Pelor that were travelling with the group sent one of their underlings to help heal the ogre. Set his broken bones, make him comfortable, that sort of thing. Instead of him just automatically succeeding on his heal checks, I always make my NPCs roll for that sort of thing. after rolling nothing over a 3 for 5 heal checks, I described the sounds as being truly horrible, actually causing a few more broken bones in the process. At that point the group stopped him, told him to run and get the higher ups, who then came, performed the necessary checks, and then punished the nameless NPC by making him take care of the ogre until he woke up. Sponge baths, makign sure the ogre was fed and had water, just general taking care of. The party asked him his name, at which point the NPC Cleric of Pelor named Welker Maynard was born. Since the party was level 3, I decided to just have Welker at level 2. At this point, the party offered to transport the ogre in their wagon, until they came to the next town where they could leave him in the hands of good caregivers.

Later that session, the wagon train had come to a town where they were supposed to resupply before heading into the Corrupted Lands in order to start administering the cure. When they came up to the town, all they saw was that it had been burnt, smashed, and basically taken to the ground. What they didn't come across was any bodies of any of the townsfolk. Fast forward 2 days while search parties are sent out finding nothing, and on dawn of the third day, someone looks out on the horizon and sees a mass of medium humanoids approaching them. Basically a zombie horde. While the caravan guards could have won, they'd have taken too many losses so they ordered everyone into the wagons and into a nearby forest that (unbeknownst to the party) was being protected by one of the fey courts. AS the party runs back to their wagon, guess what, its surrounded by zombies. At this point, a member of the party asks, "hey, what happenned to Welker? isn't he taking care of the ogre who's in the wagon?" My head lifts, and yes, he's in the wagon, but I didn't want him to affect the battle, until another party member starts yelling "WELKER LOOK OUT!! YOU'RE SURROUNDED!! DO SOMETHING!!" Welker being a cleric does his turn undead thing, and rolls max on both checks. Cue the fleeing zombies and a clear path to the wagon. Party starts to love this guy.

Next session, party has to go back to the town to pick up some things that got left behind due to the hasty retreat, in addition to try and rescue some of the Pelor priests who didn't make it out due to trying to help others make it. The party tries to convince Welker to come, but I have to have him opt out since I wasn't planning on making up his stats and everything on the fly, but storywise, he stays back since there's less priests here now and they can't spare anyone. Maybe next time. The party rescues some of the priests, kills a few ogres who for story reasons was controlling the zombie horde, retrieves the stuff that was left, and makes it back to the forest, under the cover of nightfall.

By the next session, I felt that since the party levelled to 4, and with Welker's turn undead, it wasn't unreasonable to level him up to 3 when I made his character. Since I knew the party was going to want him around, rolled stats for his character sheet, and made him a simple cleric archer. At this point, still an NPC, but crossing into DMPC territory, at least by my definition. Also took brew potion as I figured if he's going to travel with the party, he might as well make them stuff. So, this game, party gets "ambushed" by the fey protecting the forest, is allowed to leave, and they give Welker th recipe to brew a potion to wake up the ogre travelling with them. One plot exposition later, the party goes back to the town, find the ogres and zombies gone, and returns to the forest. At this point the party gets split off of the rest of the caravan in order to track down the Ogres and Zombies. They decide to take Welker with them, and the second DMPC, who was supposed to be the only. Second DMPC is a warforged ranger, so they need him in order to follow the tracks. At this point, the second DMPC is demoted to tracker NPC, as well as mundane item crafter, since he had ranks in craft(blacksmithing). Totally noncombatant for him now, since I really don't want to run 2 of these guys in the party.

A few sessions later, Welker gets his head smashed in by a combination of me not realizing how low his life was, bad stats since I used the normal stat array for him, and a big crit from an ogre. Now, I'm happy to let him die, but the players start panicking to figure out what they can do to bring him back. They demand his character sheet, and then after looking at it start asking why his stats are so low. I let them know how I built him, and they start chastizing me for not building him with the same rules as they had followed. At the beginning of the game I let them know they had 1 fiat to use, as a group, if they felt I did something unfair. They decide to use that fiat now, to bring Welker back. I look at the party inventory, find they have a scroll they never identified, look at my notes, and it was a scroll of mount. So, I change it to a scroll of reincarnate, and let the druid use it. The party then gives up all of their role-playing XP to welker to try and cut down the level loss. At that point, my players tell me that I need to play Welker as if he was my character, not some random NPC. I let them know flat out, to tell me if it feels like I'm favoring him at all, ever.

The party loves having this guy around. He's stayed an archer with pretty deadly precision, but I've never let him do something a party member could. I've done by best to play him down a bit, just so that he doesn't overshadow the players. When the party began unlocking their +2 LA templates, he was somewhat of an integral part to the stories. Afterwards, the players decided to come up with something for him, basically giving him the Aasimar character adjustments as well as 2 of the feats from Faerun, the one that gives him wings and the one that changes his daylight SLA to a searing light SLA, as well as an extra domain slot. So his domains are now Sun, Strength and Healing, I may take him into radiant servant of Pelor.

That's the story of Welker Maynard, NPC Cleric of Pelor changed into an Angelic Servant of Pelor DMPC. He provides ranged support, potions, knowledge of the world (since this is a homebrew campaign setting), and the ritalin to my players ADD.

The second DMPC that never was, the warforged ranger named Rock, was supposed to by my PC after my story ended and someone else from the group took over. I wrote him out at level 9, which is what I figured the players would be at after the story ended. Since he's taken on a different lesser role than I intended him to, I never bothered to write out a progression for him. So now the level 5 party has a level 9 watching their back, which may come into the story later. But, since he hasn't done anything other than repair the wagon, and craft some weapons and armor out of found materials, he's not exactly a DMPC anymore and not really deserving of a story.

prufock
2014-05-29, 10:57 AM
Are the other players really going to enjoy being an audience to this?
If the other players are familiar with JAZZ they would. If they're a new group, no.


A far better way to get back at this DM is to just punish his characters when they do lethally stupid things.
Doing fatally idiotic things should result in character death for everybody.

Garimeth
2014-05-29, 11:48 AM
I don't understand, partially, why you kept going back to such idiot psychopaths.

Let me ask, the actual player behind JAZZ, are they generally unhappy or unsuccessful in their life? From my past experiences, it sounds like JAZZplayer has basically nothing but their imaginary characters to be successful through.

This. So much this. Let's make a list here:

- Older guy in his 40s DMing for a bunch of middle/high schoolers. Unless one of the children is a relative, that should make you raise an eyebrow. OP says not to ask why this guy was DMing for them, so probably not a relative.

- Obviously exhibiting issues of control and narcissism and exceedingly worried about how his players (children) percieve him.

- Enjoys punishing/withholding/embarrassing his players (children).

- Comes back years later to play in the game of one of these children now that they are older, and displays the same tendency.


Conclusion: Older guy who has a sense of percieved failure in his adult life, struggling with issues of control/authority and feelings of worth. Surrounds himself by a bunch of children and places himself in a position of authority (DM/Adult) and abuses it, in particular singling out one person (the OP) and encouraging the others to do the same (the fighter's player comes to mind). This gives him a perception of having influenced/lead or been in charge - something he obviously does not have in daily life.

If this DM is not entirely fictional, the guy would probably abuse his family, possibly have substance abuse issues, and anger issues relating to control, probably with an adverse childhood experience.

In short. I would not have played with guy when I was younger, and I would not allow my children, had I any, to associate with him in ANY way. This guy is toxic, in need of some serious help, and you should probably cut them out of your life entirely.

ElenionAncalima
2014-05-29, 02:22 PM
Did anyone else have any cool stories they'd care to share? I'd love to hear more on DMPCs who didn't suck.

I think there are three primary factors to making DMPCs work.

1. As the DM, do not get overly invested in a character during the creation stage. There is a reason that DMPC is mostly used pejoratively. DMPCs often create an unpleasant situation where the DM is more invested in the success and story of that character than the PCs. This can be a tough line to toe, since the DM does need to be invested on some level and also deserves to have fun. However, if fun involves constantly trying to one-up and steal the spotlight from the players, that person is probably not suited for the DM chair. When creating an DMPC it is probably good to ask yourself - "If the players show animosity/no interest towards this character, will I get frustrated with them?". If the answer is yes, you may be on your way to making a problem NPC.

2. Pay attention to how your players are responding to your NPCs. Just like in real life, your players will find certain personalities appealing, while other personalities will get under their skin. If you can get a good read on this with your players, you are pretty much set with NPCs. If you want them to like someone, give them the traits that they like. If you want a villain to drive them crazy, hit all their pet peeves. They will love it when the villain gets what they deserve.


I am currently DMing a game with two players. One player likes to prank/tease a lot of NPCs. If I have the NPC laugh it off or join in on the pranking, he pretty much has instant rapport with them. In general his character has a lot more respect towards those who aren't overly bothered by his jokes. On the flipside, he also loves NPCs that take themselves too seriously and get mad at his pranks because he finds them funny...so I'll often ham up the frustrations of minor characters for his amusement.

My other player likes to find NPCs in need and wants to be friends with everybody. She loves NPCs who are friendly, open and appreciative of help. Whenever I roleplay someone who is clearly withholding secrets, standoffish towards her character or generally unfriendly she gets noticeably bothered.

3. Let the players be the driving force behind whether the DMPC stays or goes. This is probably the most important factor. While there may be the occasional scenario where the players are forced to work with someone they dislike, generally these scenarios should be limited. Where is the fun in constantly being forced to do stuff you don't want to? Often the best DMPC ends up being the guy with the pregen stats and the name straight from a generator who had a totally improvised a conversation with a PC. If the party likes an NPC's personality or sees that he has something useful, like buffs or healing, they may outright ask the NPC to come with them. Sometimes you've just got to accept that the uber cool guy with the ten page backstory is going to get left at the tavern, while random drunk guy #3 will end being Best Man at the rogue's wedding.

Angelalex242
2014-05-31, 03:51 AM
I've got some horror stories.

The male GM, who was running both a V:TM game and a 3.5 game...

Well, he had a real life crush on the female player in the group. It's amazing how many sexual things happened to that player's character, as the GM used the fact he controlled the world to indulge his own erotic fantasies. All of them happened with GMPCs, never with other actual PCs.

But then it got worse:

He actually crossed the line to full on sexual harassment, and massaged her thigh under the gaming table with one hand. To my regret, I failed my Real Life spot check and didn't notice it till I was told about it later. The rest of us cracked down on him after that, and I had her sit by me, on the other side of the table from the GM. My character was an Exalted Paladin Fist of Raziel, so I was feeling protective anyway. She was a CG Rogue, but even so. The characters never hooked up, as it was more protection from DMing jackassery then any IC protection that was needed.

The Masquerade game was just as bad, with my character being a vampire, hers being a vampire, and the GM creating a super mage that could have sex with her in combat and somehow all the bad guys died when that happened. Her character in that game suicided. I was in on it, and though my character was one of the fastest vampires undead, with enough dots in celerity to run across the entire ocean if need be, it was set up such so I wouldn't reach her character in time.

I hope none of your stories ever go THIS far.

Gamgee
2014-05-31, 05:39 AM
I've got some horror stories.

The male GM, who was running both a V:TM game and a 3.5 game...

Well, he had a real life crush on the female player in the group. It's amazing how many sexual things happened to that player's character, as the GM used the fact he controlled the world to indulge his own erotic fantasies. All of them happened with GMPCs, never with other actual PCs.

But then it got worse:

He actually crossed the line to full on sexual harassment, and massaged her thigh under the gaming table with one hand. To my regret, I failed my Real Life spot check and didn't notice it till I was told about it later. The rest of us cracked down on him after that, and I had her sit by me, on the other side of the table from the GM. My character was an Exalted Paladin Fist of Raziel, so I was feeling protective anyway. She was a CG Rogue, but even so. The characters never hooked up, as it was more protection from DMing jackassery then any IC protection that was needed.

The Masquerade game was just as bad, with my character being a vampire, hers being a vampire, and the GM creating a super mage that could have sex with her in combat and somehow all the bad guys died when that happened. Her character in that game suicided. I was in on it, and though my character was one of the fastest vampires undead, with enough dots in celerity to run across the entire ocean if need be, it was set up such so I wouldn't reach her character in time.

I hope none of your stories ever go THIS far.
All I can say is ugh.

killer_monk
2014-05-31, 05:47 AM
I've got some horror stories.

The male GM, who was running both a V:TM game and a 3.5 game...

Well, he had a real life crush on the female player in the group. It's amazing how many sexual things happened to that player's character, as the GM used the fact he controlled the world to indulge his own erotic fantasies. All of them happened with GMPCs, never with other actual PCs.

But then it got worse:

He actually crossed the line to full on sexual harassment, and massaged her thigh under the gaming table with one hand. To my regret, I failed my Real Life spot check and didn't notice it till I was told about it later. The rest of us cracked down on him after that, and I had her sit by me, on the other side of the table from the GM. My character was an Exalted Paladin Fist of Raziel, so I was feeling protective anyway. She was a CG Rogue, but even so. The characters never hooked up, as it was more protection from DMing jackassery then any IC protection that was needed.

The Masquerade game was just as bad, with my character being a vampire, hers being a vampire, and the GM creating a super mage that could have sex with her in combat and somehow all the bad guys died when that happened. Her character in that game suicided. I was in on it, and though my character was one of the fastest vampires undead, with enough dots in celerity to run across the entire ocean if need be, it was set up such so I wouldn't reach her character in time.

I hope none of your stories ever go THIS far.

No, this is horrible in an entirely different way. My stories are mostly about an old bully and something that drove me to not enjoy d&d for years.

Your story is about sexual harassment and something that was going too far. I feel for the poor girl who had to endure that.

And to answer a few questions:

I still don't want to say anything about the DM. Although I will say that the only time he's a jerk is when he thinks he can impress someone or when he picks up the dice. Any other time and he's perfectly normal.

I do not still game with him. But I do see him IRL.

I've been working on being better with my DMPCs. Hopefully, thanks to this very thread, I'll eventually have one of my players tell a story of how great their DM's PCs were!:smallbiggrin:

And I'm still wanting to hear more stories if anyone has any? Horror or otherwise.

I'm also willing to answer any questions you all may have.

Angelalex242
2014-05-31, 05:53 AM
Oh, I forgot the worst part.

The DM in question?

He's married, and has a special needs daughter.

aberratio ictus
2014-05-31, 07:53 AM
Oh, I forgot the worst part.

The DM in question?

He's married, and has a special needs daughter.

I'm a bit surprised that the female player in question continued to play in that group after all that sexual stuff, and that you guys still continued to game with him after he actually harassed her in real life.

Then again, I'm very often surprised at what people are willing to put up with.

Arbane
2014-05-31, 06:30 PM
I'm a bit surprised that the female player in question continued to play in that group after all that sexual stuff, and that you guys still continued to game with him after he actually harassed her in real life.

Then again, I'm very often surprised at what people are willing to put up with.

Yep. I have heard WAY too many horror stories from female gamers that end with "...and I'm surprised I ever played again." Which leaves me gloomily wondering how many horror stories we're not hearing ended with "and I never played again."

hoverfrog
2014-06-01, 07:28 AM
My regular real life games involved two forty somethings and two teenagers, that is two older player\DMs and our sons. Given the small size of our group whichever one of us is DMing has a DMPC. I must say that I've never seen a DM do anything approaching the horror stories here. DMPCs should support the PCs. They should fill the roles left open by the players. If they're all wizards then the DMPC should be a fighter. If they've not got a cleric then the DMPC should fill that role. Generally speaking DMPCs should be reactive rather than proactive. By that I mean that they shouldn't lead or come up with ideas unless the party is completely stumped. They should help and take suggestions, not take control. They get the left of treasure when it's shared out and quite often, at least in my games, they're the ones making magic items for the other players anyway (at their request of course).

If I'd had these experiences with a DM I think I would have given up playing entirely or just started my own game. Thankfully all my DMs have been pretty good and even the worst of them sounds a thousand times better than JAZZDM. I can only conclude that you're either a glutton for punishment or you want to play so much that you'll put up with abuse on this scale.

JAZZDM sounds like he stop maturing at 11 years of age. At his age he probably won't change so it is wise to avoid his games and probably him if he's like that in other aspects of his life.

illyahr
2014-06-03, 12:19 PM
A couple DMPC's that I ran that still get talked about, and even looked for, in my campaigns.

1. Andre Stout: LN Halfling Necromancer. Preserves the cycle of life and death by destroying any creature that evades his/her natural death (sentient undead or creatures brought back through Raise Dead etc.) Ironically, he has no issue with the Druid's Reincarnation spell since it moves the soul forward without halting or reversing the cycle. Uses mindless undead (the souls have moved on so it's no different than using constructs) to dig graves (he appreciates the symmetry) and to pull his cart of gravetending and magical supplies (skeleton pony named Bony).

2. Ardet Bey: CN Wild Elf Scout. The most foul-mouthed, uncouth, and argumentative individual you could ever hope to meet. Has been known to make sailors blush with his language (learned various languages just so he could expand his cursing vocabulary). However, he is extremely loyal and his proficiency with tracking/scouting/archery is top notch. My players cheer when this guy shows up because of the sheer mischief he will cause in their favor when he gets rolling.

ElenionAncalima
2014-06-03, 12:57 PM
Yep. I have heard WAY too many horror stories from female gamers that end with "...and I'm surprised I ever played again." Which leaves me gloomily wondering how many horror stories we're not hearing ended with "and I never played again."

Yeah. Makes me glad that, while I haven't had perfect DMs and players, I have never really had to deal with stuff like that. One DM tried to get a little creepy spying on the girls with a DMPC he thought was some kind of cassanova (a textbook case of an awful DMPC, though not JAZZ level). He got rewarded by awkward silence and glares, even from the guys.

We don't really let him DM for us anymore, except for one player who joined another game he is running. He already wants to quit after one session because apparantly something really messed up happened to one of the female characters. I don't know exactly what happened but it must have been bad, since my friend, who is not easily offended, didn't feel comfortable repeating it.

I just don't get why DMs do stuff like that...let alone why players put up with it. I've put up with some crappy DMing in the past, but I would stop gaming if my only option was a game like that.

Madeiner
2014-06-05, 07:55 PM
I like this thread!

I want more JAZZ stories!


Btw, next time i have to make up an obnoxious NPC, i will name him JAZZ and make sure he dies, horribly, within the session!

WarKitty
2014-06-06, 06:29 AM
To be fair to JAZZ and [Marty], I too wrote self-projection stories where I was the youngest captain in Starfleet, saved the Enteprise, yadda yadda yadda...but I wrote them WHEN I WAS TWELVE.

Not sure what these guys' excuses are.

At least by adulthood you should have learned that such stories are for Personal Daydreaming Time, and occasionally giggling over with close friends. Just don't inflict them on unsuspecting players...