Sneak Attack Two Weapon Fighting Flanker Build Questions

[thespiritofwar]

So for this build, I started with the idea of how can I deal the most damage from a melee build, if I can consistently rely on a party member to provide flanking opportunities for me. Immediately my thoughts turned to a SA TWF Daring Outlaw build. However, unlike a lot of those builds that I've seen, I want to work under the assumption that I have a nice meat shield providing flanking chances for me, instead of needing to work for SA conditions on my own. In order to achieve this, I'm focusing on high BAB (at least 16 by 20), lots of SA dice, and trying to get as many attacks as possible.

Feats I think are a must:
Daring Outlaw (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/daring-outlaw--508/)
Craven (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/craven--484/)
TWF (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/two-weapon-fighting--2998/)
Improved TWF (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/improved-two-weapon-fighting--1593/)
Shadow Blade (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/shadow-blade--2556/)
Martial Study (Shadow Hand) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/martial-study--1879/)
Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/martial-stance--1878/)
Weapon Finesse (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/weapon-finesse--3103/)

Other good Feats:
Deadly Precision (http://dndtools.eu/feats/expanded-psionics-handbook--65/deadly-precision--529/)
GTWF (http://dndtools.eu/feats/deities-and-demigods--39/greater-two-weapon-fighting--1309/)
Combat Reflexes (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/combat-reflexes--403/)
Weapon Focus (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/weapon-focus--3105/)
Improved Buckler Defense (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/improved-buckler-defense--1449/)
Vexing Flanker (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/vexing-flanker--3062/)

My thoughts with the feats are basically that after a certain point (7 or 8 feats depending on race and class features) I will be exchanging 1 SA die for 1 feat. So if the feat can give me an expected value of > 3.5 damage per attack, it's worth taking.

So right now, I'm thinking something like this for the base.
Lesser Tiefling - Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 2
Feats: Weapon Focus (CL 1), Craven (CL3), Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler 1), Daring Outlaw (CL6), Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger 2), Martial Study (Fighter 1), Shadow Blade (CL 9), Martial Stance (Fighter 2)

I've included the 2 levels of ranger simply because I think level 1 and 2 of ranger are better than 3 and 4 of fighter however they'd be the first to go if I don't need the extra feat. I'd also think that pushing back the fighter levels could be beneficial in order to get a better maneuver from Martial Study.

So naturally I have a lot of questions.

What's the best maneuver to take?
How would you finish this build off?
Is 1 level of monk worth thinking about? (Unarmed strike works with shadow blade, plus flurry of blows)
How useful is the vexing flanker feat?
Is Ambidexterity worth 4 levels of Tempest PrC?


Thanks!

[John Longarrow]

For your build, replace the 2 levels in Fighter with 1 in Sword Sage. This gives you the maneuvers/stance required for Shadow Hand. This also gives you weapon focus in a set of weapons.
Lvl 2 Sword Sage gives Wisdom to AC in light armor.
Lvl 4 Sword Sage gives you Wisdom to Damage with a set of weapons.

At least this should free up 3 feats for you.

[Bloodgruve]

SA is great when you can get it to kick off, but there are a lot of times where you can't because of the battle field, mobility, flanker, etc...

Mobility is key. Some maneuvers are really nice, the Shadow Jaunt line is good and some of the Tiger Claw maneuvers work well to move you with Jump. You're spending standard actions for the teleports though and the jumps are situational also.

My favorite way to gain mobility is Dimension Hop, psionic power that's a short distance teleport and its a swift action, gets you into position and gives you a full attack. This is super helpful but it requires a decent power point pool, you may want to look at psionic rogue and Ardent or Psionic Warrior.

Another is Travel Devotion. Gives you an extra move action per round for 10 rounds once per day. Burn some Turn Undead attempts to gain another use of 10 rounds of extra move actions. This will let you get into position and still get a full attack. Dip Cloistered Cleric 1, sub out Travel and Knowledge domains for Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion, take Undeath as your last domain which gives you extra turning for ~40 rounds of extra move actions.

You'll have problems vs Undead, Constructs, etc.. You may want to look at a way to get some damage on them. Dungeonscape has an ACF giving you some SA damage to undead. Golem Strike, Grave Strike and Plant Strike spells are helpful too.

Its always nice to have a flanking buddy too, if you don't have one in the group then you can get your own with a familiar, animal companion or cohort.

Look at the Daviti race from Dragon Mag. 2 characters in one... Crescent Blades will double your SA damage also if allowed.

I've moved away from precision damage lately. My Clawlock is doing quite good damage without flanking/SA requirements.

GL
Blood~

[Darrin]

Other good Feats:
Deadly Precision (http://dndtools.eu/feats/expanded-psionics-handbook--65/deadly-precision--529/)


No. Get Bracers of Murder (8000 GP, Drow of the Underdark) instead.



Improved Buckler Defense (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/improved-buckler-defense--1449/)


No. If you want a buckler, get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Buckler Axe instead. +1 shield bonus, but no -1 attack penalty for using that arm. I'm a little fuzzy on if you use the normal buckler rules, but it looks like you only lose the shield bonus when you attack with the buckler axe.



So right now, I'm thinking something like this for the base.
Lesser Tiefling - Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 2
Feats: Weapon Focus (CL 1), Craven (CL3), Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler 1), Daring Outlaw (CL6), Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger 2), Martial Study (Fighter 1), Shadow Blade (CL 9), Martial Stance (Fighter 2)


Taking Martial Stance at ECL 8 means your IL = 4, which means you can only get 1st level stances. This isn't horrible by any means, as Island of Blades is really, really useful. However, if you want Assassin's Stance, then you'll want to take Fighter 2 at ECL 10, where your IL = 5, and you can get 3rd level stances. Another option would be dipping two levels of Swordsage, which gets you Island of Blades + Assassin's Stance, Weapon Focus with discipline weapons, saves you two feats, Wis to AC, and some other goodies, although you lose +1 BAB.

Take the Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark for more Dex damage on flat-footed targets.



I've included the 2 levels of ranger simply because I think level 1 and 2 of ranger are better than 3 and 4 of fighter however they'd be the first to go if I don't need the extra feat. I'd also think that pushing back the fighter levels could be beneficial in order to get a better maneuver from Martial Study.


I like Ranger for the skill points and the "Toolbox" of different ACFs you can swap in. I think the only downside is you lose out on Weapon Specialization, which isn't a great feat to begin with, but it's hard to find a single feat that gives you +2 damage, and while the Power Attackers are going to sneer at that +2 damage, a good TWF build will "multiply" it with more hits.



So naturally I have a lot of questions.

What's the best maneuver to take?



It has to be from Shadow Hand if you want to grab a stance for Shadow Blade. Best pick is Cloak of Deception, so taking it at ECL 7 (when IL = 3.5) works just fine.




How would you finish this build off?



Daring Outlaw is a waste of a feat if you're only using it to gain +1d6 sneak attack. You'll want to finish off with as many Swashbuckler levels as possible.




Is 1 level of monk worth thinking about? (Unarmed strike works with shadow blade, plus flurry of blows)



No. If you're going to lose a point of BAB, it should be a Swordsage dip. If you want to add Improved Unarmed Strike, ask your DM if the Unarmed Swordsage variant is available.

If you want another attack, Snap Kick is better than Flurry, since you can use it on standard attacks.




How useful is the vexing flanker feat?



Not worth a feat slot. I'd rather take Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) or Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook).




Is Ambidexterity worth 4 levels of Tempest PrC?



No. Tempest requires three feats that have nothing to do with TWF (Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack). It would also reduce your Sneak Attack by cutting into your Swashbuckler levels.

If you absolutely must get rid of the -2 TWF penalty, take Exotic Weapon Proficiency + Weapon Focus to grab a single level of Exotic Weapon Master for the Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting Stunt. -2 + 1 + 1 = 0. Costs you two feats instead of three, and you're not lugging around feats you can't combine with TWF. If you took the Swordsage dip, then you already have Weapon Focus.

More advice: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

[thespiritofwar]

So I know it's been awhile, but I'm finally getting a chance to actually play this character so I'm revisiting him. Taking most of your suggestions to heart, I've updated the build to look like this:

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 7/Swordsage 1/ Swashbuckler 3

Rogue ACF: Poison Use and Penetrating Strike
Fighter ACF: Sneak Attack and Hit-and-run

Feats:
Two-weapon Fighting (ECL 1)
Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler 1)
Craven (ECL 3)
Daring Outlaw (ECL 6)
Weapon Focus (Swordsage 1)
Improved Two-weapon Fighting (ECL 9)
Shadow Blade (ECL 12)
Staggering Strike (ECL 15)

Stances:
Assassin's Stance (SS 1)
Island of Blades (SS 2)

Maneuvers:
Sudden Lead (SS1)
Distracting Ember (SS1)
Cloak of Deception (SS1)
Shadow Jaunt (SS1)

Dancing Mongoose (SS2)

I added the one level of sneak attack fighter for two reasons. 1st, it's nice to pick up the hit-and-run ACF, and second, 18 levels of rogue+swashbuckler is the same amount of SA dice as 17 levels so why not sneak in another extra die. I also delayed level 2 of Swordsage so that I could pick up 1 level 5 maneuver although I'm not totally sure if that's necessary. I'll also admit that I think this build would benefit a lot for a 1 level dip in Cloistered Cleric, but I don't think my DM will go for that. If he did, I'd probably replace lv 2 of Swordsage with Cleric and move it earlier in the progression. Travel and Knowledge devotion for sure.

Questions:
1. Is swordsage worth 2 levels in this build?

a: If so, is it worth delaying the second level?
2. Any other maneuvers I should grab?
3. Thoughts on my last feat?
4. Worth going human to be able to grab that extra feat? (would allow double hit)
5. Any thoughts on race? Whisper Gnome, Lesser Tiefling, Stronghart Halfing, Human?

[Seppo87]

Improved 2 weapon fighting can be replaced with Gloves of the Balanced Hand. Boom, extra feat slot. Use that for Knowledge Devotion

[gorfnab]

While slightly dubious you could go with something like Feat Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Sneak Attack Fighter 3/ Swordsage 2/ Rogue 11 and take Daring Outlaw at 9th level. This leaves you with plenty of feats for TWF et all.