Gnome vs. Dragon Disciple

[cupscapetin]

I Co-HDM a D&D 3.5e Homebrew chat. Recently, we had a question come up through our forums, and my Team and are currently having a heated debate about this topic. We can't seem to come with a conclusion - and I was hoping you lot might have some insight.

Gnome vs. Dragon Disciple PrC.

Gnome have 'spell-like abilities', yes? Yes. ("Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.") Spell-Like Abilities - they are granted racially and not through a class.

Super, yes?

Now, say a Gnome Barbarian wants to later take the Dragon Discriple PrC. PrC per-requisites are as followed:

Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon). Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks. Speaks Draconic.The player must choose a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class. Must have the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.

So, I have to ask... Does a Gnome Barbarian qualify, if not a caster other than the Gnome Racial Spell-Like Abilities - to take the Dragon Disciple PrC? Are the Gnome spell granted through racial ability considered Arcane Spells? (They do not have to prepare them).

Thanks so much for your input - hopefully you lot can come to better conclusion than we can!

[Toliudar]

Short RAW answer: spell-like abilities are not spells. The gnome does not qualify

Longer answer: if the player really wants to head in this direction, I really don't think that this is a broken combination. I'd allow it anyway.

[Malroth]

Dip Bard 2 for Inspire courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, Inspiration boost and take ranks in Perform(singing kill kill kill) while you stack free elemental damage to every attack you do.

[Chronos]

While we're at it, spell-like abilities are also not arcane (aside from the warlock and dragonfire adept).

[ghanjrho]

In Pathfinder, this would work. In 3.5, it seems not. FWIW, the PFRPG ruling was explicitly made to allow for earlier entry into PrCs, especially in PFS games (which normally end at level 12)

[Feint's End]

In Pathfinder, this would work. In 3.5, it seems not. FWIW, the PFRPG ruling was explicitly made to allow for earlier entry into PrCs, especially in PFS games (which normally end at level 12)

Pathfinder even has a ruling on whether slas are arcane or divine which is quite nice to avoid discussion.


In 3.5 though there is no such ruling and therefor slas =/= spells. Therefor entering with no levels in a casting class is not possible (maybe there is a way to do it with featshenanigans).

I agree that bard is a nice dip to get what you want (2 levels work better). Dragonfire Inspiration is too feat intensive though (you need 2-3 feats which is not worth it in a mainly melee build) but even without it you are looking at a +4 bonus to hit and damage which is nice (1 from class ... 1 from song of the heart ... 1 from badge of valor ... 1 from inspirational boost .... you might be able to get another point with vest of legends). If you really are a smart and charismatic barbarian (speak 15+ in both) and of good alignment you can get words of creation to double this bonus (might be worth it at very high levels).

So again ... no entrance without spells but loosing a level(or two) of barbarian isn't that bad if you know how to take advantage of it.

.... besides ... A singing barbarian is hilarious to play.

[Segev]

.... besides ... A singing barbarian is hilarious to play.

I always think of the headless monks, the Ogier in battle, and the Parshendi when I think of "singing barbarians."

[Feint's End]

Longer answer: if the player really wants to head in this direction, I really don't think that this is a broken combination. I'd allow it anyway.

I actually think this is pretty nice. And maybe allowing the extra spells you get to be added to slas. But then the class is somewhat too specific for races with slas which might be odd from a balancing point of view (but then again ... its dragon disciple we are talking about).

[cupscapetin]

Thanks you lot for your input. I suppose the problem that we are facing now is that my Team is more concerned as they have gone on debating - would this concept be likely broken? Our player argues that is should be allowed, though I personally disagree - within our Homebrew setting, Spell-Like Abilities are not the same as Spells themselves. (They need not roll Caster Level Checks to make such an ability go off safely... it simply does...)


Regardless - I think this has settled the matter. Thank you very much!

[Spore]

Thanks you lot for your input. I suppose the problem that we are facing now is that my Team is more concerned as they have gone on debating - would this concept be likely broken?!

A barbarian 3/bard 2/dragon disciple is NOWHERE near broken. Not even an barb 5/dragon disciple would be. I play a dragon disciple as "full caster" and even I feel the hit to caster level and realize I would be more powerful if not as versatile as a pure sorcerer.

[Feint's End]

A barbarian 3/bard 2/dragon disciple is NOWHERE near broken. Not even an barb 5/dragon disciple would be. I play a dragon disciple as "full caster" and even I feel the hit to caster level and realize I would be more powerful if not as versatile as a pure sorcerer.

It most certainly is more powerful to go straight sorcerer but OP is talking about 3.5 where dragon disciple doesn't progress casting at all. It just gives you additional uses of spells you already know.

As for the last question. No it wouldn't be overpowered. If it doesn't fit flavour wise then it's understandable but from a balancing standpoint it doesn't matter. In fact the bard-dip is probably stronger if you know how to make use of it.

[Rebel7284]

Duskblade 1 dip is full BAB and has first level spells. It's an option. Regardless, yes, Dragon Disciple is a pretty weak class.

[Feint's End]

Duskblade 1 dip is full BAB and has first level spells. It's an option. Regardless, yes, Dragon Disciple is a pretty weak class.

Yeah Duskblade is also a nice way without loosing bab. I actually think Dragon disciple is pretty decent (even the 3.5 one) when playing in a low op/ core only game. The strength boni you get make up for the bab loss and increase your damage. You get flight, blindsense and natural armor for free and the 2 level dip in bard gives you some out of combat stuff + utility. Overall one of the better PRCs in Core.

[Vaz]

While we're at it, spell-like abilities are also not arcane (aside from the warlock and dragonfire adept).

Unless specified as Divine, SLA's are considered to be Arcane.

[Deadline]

So, I have to ask... Does a Gnome Barbarian qualify, if not a caster other than the Gnome Racial Spell-Like Abilities - to take the Dragon Disciple PrC? Are the Gnome spell granted through racial ability considered Arcane Spells? (They do not have to prepare them).

Thanks so much for your input - hopefully you lot can come to better conclusion than we can!

So, quick answer to these (I think the source comes from Complete Arcane, specifically where it talks about how a Warlock can qualify for Arcane PrCs):


Can Spell-Like abilities be used to qualify for requirements of casting spells of a certain level? No
Can Spell-Like abilities be used to qualify for requirements that specify "Must be able to cast X spell," where X is the spell-like ability? Yes


Basically, there are a few different kinds of requirements related to spellcasting:


Must be able to cast spells of X level. (Spell-like abilities don't count for this)
Must have a caster level of X. (This is one of the ways a Warlock can qualify for some Arcane PrCs)
Must be able to cast X spell. (Spell-like abilities DO count for this. If a PrC requires the ability to cast Dancing Lights, and you have Dancing Lights as a Spell-Like ability, you can use that to qualify)


As others have mentioned, just take a level or two of Bard instead of a few Barbarian levels, and you easily qualify. Bard is even a favored class for Gnomes. Or switch up to Duskblade 5, which qualifies all on its own.

Out of curiosity, how is this Gnome Barbarian going to qualify for the Knowledge(Arcana) skill requirement of Dragon Disciple (a level of Bard will take care of that too)?