Do PC classes make armies irrelevant? [Archive] - Page 2

Lord Zentei

2007-02-17, 05:43 PM

Incorrect. Ad Hominem in't it?s

Magic and Tech are roughly equal. HoB says it a couple of times. Does DMG says that do to the effects of magic war would be a lot more like modern war than middle age war. Magic and tech are roughly equal.

No: it is a fair assessment of your posts.

An ad hominem is an attack on the person, ignoring the argument. Only you don't have an argument. "I say so" doesn't cut it.

"Would be a lot more like modern war" is indeed my position, that does not imply parity, though.

*Sigh*. I dropped the Magic vs. Tech Debate a while back. When most people agreed that magic and tech are roughly equal. An army with magic vs. the US Army in 2000 would be an equal match (roughly). Armies are relevant if they have advanced tech BUT that isn't D&D. In the time frame that D&D takes place and with D&D tech, and army is irrelevant.

Actually, you were posting on precisely that topic only now, as anyone can see. Nor have you shown anything to support parity other than your sayso. Moreover, you were not asserting parity earlier but that "magic >> tech". But, hey, if you are backing down from that position, sweet.

Neither is your assertion "that is not D&D" an argument: it is an opinion, and a false one at that. And magic can take the place of tech, as you agreed above. So.

Ad Hominem again. Remember. I can teleport. I can turn invisible. I can reach your missile launch silos. I can cast a permanent wall of force. No tech can get aroudn one. You launch teh missile and it doesn't go anywhere. Counter my argument don't make personal attacks.

The attacks were not against you, they were against the fact that you have made no argument worthy of the name.

Um when? And anyways I already crammed my people in stasis and went somewhere else. If you can claim that your nukes are launched I can make equally unsupported claims.

That was the point I was making with regards to your methodology. "Equally unsupported claims". What did you think that I meant when I said I would be responing in the same spirit as you were posting?

<SNIP SNIP NONSENSE>

That wasn't a concession.

As a matter of fact, it was essentially that. See if you can spot why.

I have been. You should try to do the same. And I might add that you are the one perpetuating the "magic vs. tech nonsense".

Nonsense. You are the one who brought up the topic initially. That is on the record, plain for all to see. I merely responded that your post was nonsense. Then you responded in kind. But if you don't want to continue, how about just dropping it?

Remember to keep your debates separate. This has nothing to do with magic vs. tech.

You of all people should not presume to lecture me on keeping the debates seperate. And while you're at it, I suggest that you look up the term "analogy".

Yep. If one side has nukes (or their equivalent) and the other doesn't then the army of the side lacking the nukes is entirely irrelevant.

Well, thank you, Captain Obvious.

Unless they have allies who possess nukes. In which case the armies are not irrelevant anymore. And even then "he who uses nukes gets nuked". Nuclear powers don't like the idea of the balance of power shifting too much.

The original debate. Where I said that I could defend a country the size of the US from 50 million men.

That was not the original debate.

The snippet I posted that you responded to at this stage had nothing to with the 50 million man rubbish. It had everything to do with D&D armies remaining relevant even with Epic level casters running around.

Nope. Read all of this thread. Someone else brought up the 50 million men. So for the last time THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TECH.

It is me with magic vs. someone with 50 million men and no PC classes (hence no magic that is worth anything).

You don't even know what you are arguing anymore, do you? You were the one to bring up the 50 million men, as all can see who have the patience to slog through all of this. Not all my posts on this thread are in response to you. You concatinated other posts of mine that I made in response to others than yourself.

*Sigh*
Read millitary history. You and me seem to be talkign abotu to different things. I am talking about 50 Million men without PC classes (and hence no viable magic) vs. 20 men with PC classes (wizards with magic).

You were responding to a post I made to another poster than yourself. Therefore, that post had nothing to do with you. Not everything on this thread revolves around you, and I am debating and discussing with others as well.

No it hasn't. Give me a post number.

Here's another possibility: read the thread.

No you don't. read the thread. It is 20 level 20 wizards vs. a 50 million man conscript army that doesn't have PC calsses.

AGAIN: the post you responded to thered was not directed at you. Everything on this thread does not revolve around you.

There is another debate about magic vs. tech and a magic army vs. a tech army. Those have nothing to do with this and should prolly be dropped as they can't be decided and won't be decided.

Blah, blah, blah. See above.

No you don't. The debate that I was talking about was the 50 million conscripts vs 20 level 20 wizards. It is middle age war. This has nothing to do with tech at all.

Blah, blah, blah. See above.

*sigh*
Different debates. I was talking about an army in D&D made up of 50 million conscripts. This has nothing to do with a 21st century army.

Hilariously, you seem to be still projecting your confusion on me.

<SNIP NONSENSE>

You just love the ad hominem, don't you?

You clearly don't know the difference between an ad hominem and dry humour in the face of non-arguments.

Emperor Tippy

2007-02-17, 06:23 PM

I'm ignoring anything to do with magic vs. tech from now on. I would hope that you would do the same.

Well, thank you, Captain Obvious.

Unless they have allies who possess nukes. In which case the armies are not irrelevant anymore. And even then "he who uses nukes gets nuked". Nuclear powers don't like the idea of the balance of power shifting too much.
Thank you very much. You just said what I have been saying for this entire thread. Nuclear weapons make the enemy army irrelevant if the enemy lacks nukes.

Player classes are the D&D equivalent of real world "nukes". Especially if you go with magic wielding PC's.

The army is irrelevant. It's the "nukes" or PC's that are relevant. If my PC's can disable your PC's then they can slaughter your army easily and hence the army is irrelevant. If your PC's defeat my PC's then you have won and you don't need the army so it is again irrelevant.

The only time the army is relevant is if both sides PC's or nukes are equal or can't be used for some other reason.

And the original question was do PC's make armies irrelevant. The answer is yes unless both sides PC's are equal.

That was not the original debate.
It was a lot closer to the original debate then 21st century tech was.

The snippet I posted that you responded to at this stage had nothing to with the 50 million man rubbish. It had everything to do with D&D armies remaining relevant even with Epic level casters running around.
Epic levels now? You have clearly never seen epic spell casting. It makes everything else irrelevant.

And if you want the ultimate proof that D&D armies are irrelevant I give you the spell gate.

I get an arbitrarily large number of Titans in 1 round. Your army goes bye bye.

You don't even know what you are arguing anymore, do you? You were the one to bring up the 50 million men, as all can see who have the patience to slog through all of this.
Actually Zeb The Troll brought up 50 million men first. I said that I coudl defend an area the size of the US from an army the size of chinas if that army had no PC classes.

Actualyl it was Not all my posts on this thread are in response to you. You concatinated other posts of mine that I made in response to others than yourself.
Sorry. its hard to tell who you were talking to.

You were responding to a post I made to another poster than yourself. Therefore, that post had nothing to do with you. Not everything on this thread revolves around you, and I am debating and discussing with others as well.
See above.

Here's another possibility: read the thread.
I have, a couple of times.

AGAIN: the post you responded to thered was not directed at you. Everything on this thread does not revolve around you.
See above.

Blah, blah, blah. See above.
See above

Blah, blah, blah. See above.
See above.

You clearly don't know the difference between an ad hominem and dry humour in the face of non-arguments.
*sigh*
More personal attacks? I have yet to use a single one.

Nerd-o-rama

2007-02-17, 06:44 PM

Okay, so can I summarize?

PC classes (high-level casters particularly) only render armies of low-level NPC class characters irrelevant if one side of the conflict (including reliable allies) does not have PC class characters of their own to counter their enemies'.

As far as I can tell, that's the point that everyone still arguing in this thread is trying to make, right?

martyboy74

2007-02-17, 06:46 PM

Emperor Tippy

2007-02-17, 06:49 PM

Roland St. Jude

2007-02-17, 06:54 PM

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please, if you must continue this discussion, do so without the name-calling, real world political references, and racial slurs. Thank you.

Lord Zentei

2007-02-17, 09:00 PM

I'm ignoring anything to do with magic vs. tech from now on. I would hope that you would do the same.

Good. All I wanted to hear from the get go as far as that tangent was concerned.

Thank you very much. You just said what I have been saying for this entire thread. Nuclear weapons make the enemy army irrelevant if the enemy lacks nukes.

Errr.. that is not what you have been saying. It may be what you meant, but that's a far cry from what you posted.

Player classes are the D&D equivalent of real world "nukes". Especially if you go with magic wielding PC's.

The army is irrelevant. It's the "nukes" or PC's that are relevant. If my PC's can disable your PC's then they can slaughter your army easily and hence the army is irrelevant. If your PC's defeat my PC's then you have won and you don't need the army so it is again irrelevant.

The only time the army is relevant is if both sides PC's or nukes are equal or can't be used for some other reason.

And the original question was do PC's make armies irrelevant. The answer is
yes unless both sides PC's are equal.

Not so. Armies are not made irrelevant by the existance of WMDs by a long shot. By your own analogy, that's the end of the debate.

But when I said that, I had the 20th level casters in mind. Low level PCs are nowhere near that dangerous: a 5th level PC party would be squashed by a 10th level NPC party.

It was a lot closer to the original debate then 21st century tech was.

Huh?

Epic levels now? You have clearly never seen epic spell casting. It makes everything else irrelevant.

Not so, for reasons explained above. And the Epic casters are the true WMDs. The PCs are special forces. Realistically, WMDs don't get used for fear of reprisal in kind, except very rarely. That's where special forces come in (lower level PCs).

Nor are special forces so powerful that they make regulars irrelevant. It's simply another tool the strategist adds to his inventory.

And if you want the ultimate proof that D&D armies are irrelevant I give you the spell gate. I get an arbitrarily large number of Titans in 1 round. Your army goes bye bye.

That does not mean that they are irrelevant, for reasons shown by the analogy above. And no, they don't become arbitrarily numerous. And no, Titans would then simply become new recruits in your army: an "army" is not all humans, after all.

Actually Zeb The Troll brought up 50 million men first. I said that I coudl defend an area the size of the US from an army the size of chinas if that army had no PC classes.

Hmmm? Let's see:

>You: The original debate. Where I said that I could defend a country the
>size of the US from 50 million men.

>Me: That was not the original debate.

>The snippet I posted that you responded to at this stage had nothing to
>with the 50 million man rubbish. It had everything to do with D&D armies
>remaining relevant even with Epic level casters running around.

By speaking of the "50 million man rubbish" I was speaking in relation to your claim that you could defend the US. But fair enough, Zeb gets credit.

Nonetheless, that was not the original debate. The original debate was whether or not PC classes made armies irrelevant. They don't.

Sorry. its hard to tell who you were talking to.

Errr... okay, though I make a point of retaining a link to the previous poster's post in the response.

Okay, so can I summarize?

PC classes (high-level casters particularly) only render armies of low-level NPC class characters irrelevant if one side of the conflict (including reliable allies) does not have PC class characters of their own to counter their enemies'.

As far as I can tell, that's the point that everyone still arguing in this thread is trying to make, right?

Only if they are epic level.

Low level PCs are not WMDs, they are special forces. Powerful, but not so powerful that parties of NPC classes with magic items cannot handle them.

20th+ level casters are the WMDs. Though if a party of 20th level casters were, for instance, to destroy a conventional army or city, that would be a colossal escalation of force that any sensible ruler would strive to avoid. Moreover, if Superpower A notices Superpower B unleash the big guns at Minor Country C, they WILL intervene, to preserve the balance of power if nothing else. So Superpower B is reluctant to do that. Thus, we get limited wars. Thus armies are relevant.

EDIT: I hope "WMD" is generic enough not to qualify as a real world reference.

I'll let this be my last word on this thread. ;)

Adam

2007-02-17, 11:00 PM

I've seen a couple people make the comparison, but I dunno that comparing high level PC's to WMD's is accurate. When we call something a WMD, we generally don't just mean that it can rack up a high kill count, or else every bomb we drop would be considered a WMD. We usually mean that it either targets civilians and civilian infrastructure indiscriminately or else kills in a particulary horrific fashion, or both. I actually prefer the older term unconventional weapons, because it conveys the point that the use of the weapons in question is widely held to be morally indefensible.

Anyway, unless being Great Cleaved along with 4 or 5 of your buddies is inherently more terrible than each of you getting stabbed individually, I don't think a high level fighter, at least, is worthy of being classified as an unconventional weapon. Spellcasters can be different, but it really depends on the spell. I imagine fantasy armies would view fireball and lightning bolt slinging mages as being acceptable, much the same way we view artillery pieces or bombers, and battlefield control spells woudl likely be acceptable, but things like cloudkill might be borderline (think of chemical weapons in WWI), and things like...oh, I can't remember the name of it...doesn't Greyhawk have some region that was completely destroyed by magic in some ancient war? Anyway, that's clearly over the line into WMD territory, but most typical combat spells probably aren't.

I guess my point is, unless you think that the populace of a fantasy world would consider high level PC's taking the field in a war to be beyond the pale, I don't think the WMD comparison is apt.

Edit: Like Lord Zentei, I hope that talking about unconventional weapons in the generic sense is apolitical enough to be within the rules.

Thantos

2007-02-17, 11:00 PM

I know none of you care what I have to say, but I am going to say it:

First of all(Magic Vs. Tech), Magic wins. Period. You have nukes, I have epic spells. No more nukes. And with out nukes it is just a mater of time before magic wins. Now that may be a very long time though so I guess it depends on weather or not taking back your land counts as victory or not. Oh and about Tippy's "I says it works => therefor it does" works with magic. That is because although technology is limited based on the laws of Physics and the technology already developed, Magic is only limited by the imagination of the caster(possibly some time). And really it would only take what one 25th lvl wizard to beat 50 milion people with out magic.

Now I don't think that armies are illrelevant because really if one person has magic, chances are the another person does too. That means that the real job falls to those low lvl people who make up the main part of the armies. I like to say that a leader is only a powerful as those he leads.

Now I would like to remind you that although all of us have differing views as to the answer to the question of this post, we are all smartish and, I would hope, mature enough not to get nasty because neither side seems to want to compramise(sp). So kiss and make up Tippy and Zentei. D&D is not a game of which is better but a game ment to cause people to have fun, so what is the point of getting all worked up over something as trival as who would win in a fight, mind you a fight that no one could every find out who would really win. Besides we all know that Pun-Pun would stomp both sides.

P.S. In case none of you didn't notice but I can't spell.

EvilElitest

2007-02-17, 11:07 PM

The big difference between magic and technology is that everyone benefits from technology. Magic is usually either inborn or studied through decades of laborious research, and either way only those with magical talent can ever hope to use magic; futhermore, they will all have to start over from the very beginning (reinventing the wheel, so to speak). When an engineer makes a new technological breakthrough, give it a few years and level one whatevers in the field will be using it.

Yeah pretty much, 1 archmage may be unspeakable poweful, but that is after decads of study and life risking adventuring. 1,000 troops all armed with machines just makes them deadly about 3 months, time to make the guns and time to train them. Very easy.

Pastafarian

2007-02-17, 11:41 PM

For the 20 lvl 20 wizards vs 50 million soldiers, I present the following chain of logic:

1) The established situation seems pretty boring to play; the wizards have it too easy, and the army can't really do anything successfully.
2) No one would play it as a D&D game.
Either:
3a) The world switches to real physics. The mages get stomped or become irrelevant because magic ceases to exist.
Or
3b) The world switches to some more realistic system. Magic still works, but at a more balanced effectiveness. The wizards still get stomped.
Or
3c) The entire world ceases to exist because nobody cares.

EvilElitest

2007-02-17, 11:48 PM

“I know none of you care what I have to say, but I am going to say it:”
Ok, we don't need a self hating intro thanks. I for one am quite interested
“First of all(Magic Vs. Tech), Magic wins. Period. You have nukes, I have epic spells. No more nukes. And with out nukes it is just a mater of time before magic wins.”
What the hell kind of military thinking is that. You have what, three wizards with epics spells. I can have HUNDREDS OF NUKES. And once i launch them what are you going to do? Sure you can shoot a few down before they reach your nation, but more will come. Hell, even if they miss their target, i get a radio active half life, sweet. Hell, if your a god, then sure, magic wins. But if your not, then what can you do to me that will beat 1,000 nukes, ok. And i don't only have nukes. In the same day i attack your country, I can attack with an invasion force. Air planes, stockpiled with bombs. Napalm beats meter storm any day, and i can do it dozens of times a day. I bomb your roads, cities, military stations, napalm your fields, and shoot down any flying magic creatures. I'll suffer losses, but hey I destroy a lot. And tanks, hell an American tank have not only a turret, but a machine gun turret and a grenade launcher. Most of my troops will have machine guns and grenades. Magic is good but for a small crowd. Think about this, if wizards, no matter not tough can be beaten by high level adventures with medieval tech, how can they hope to beat modern tech? And how is it a matter of time. You run out of spells in time, I built bigger bombs.
“Now that may be a very long time though so I guess it depends on weather or not taking back your land counts as victory or not. Oh and about Tippy's "I says it works => therefor it does" works with magic. That is because although technology is limited based on the laws of Physics and the technology already developed, Magic is only limited by the imagination of the caster(possibly some time). And really it would only take what one 25th lvl wizard to beat 50 milion people with out magic.”
Err, i don't know what your talking about here. Tech follows the law of phyics but magic has to follow its own laws as well. Magic wins if i have unlimited wish spells at my command, but if we use the D&D system then no, just no. All of my troops can have guns. Think about this, one man with a machine gun can shoot hundreds of bullets in a second. It only takes 1 bullet to kill you, if i get a head shot. Sure that does not mean you will die just after 1 bullet, but i can kill you with one. So if i have a few thousand men, all shoot hundreds of bullets, the odds of 1 hitting you are quite high their. And how would a level 25 wizard beat 5 million non magic. Maybe if we are all standing still. Even with medieval tech, that is a ludicrous idea. I And with modern tech, hell I can wipe you off the face of the earth. You will kill some, but now 5 million. That is an unbelievable number of people. If i use the right tactics and take advantage of my tech, they i can crush you easy.
“Now I don't think that armies are illrelevant because really if one person has magic, chances are the another person does too. That means that the real job falls to those low lvl people who make up the main part of the armies. I like to say that a leader is only a powerful as those he leads.”

A good leader does not need good followers to win, it will just be harder. And the rest of your point is kind of redundant.

“Now I would like to remind you that although all of us have differing views as to the answer to the question of this post, we are all smartish and, I would hope, mature enough not to get nasty because neither side seems to want to compramise(sp).”

Yes, we are very "Smartish", and have differing views. But this is not a argument about religion. This is a argument using logic about whether or not PC classes make armies irrelevant.

“So kiss and make up Tippy and Zentei. D&D is not a game of which is better but a game ment to cause people to have fun, so what is the point of getting all worked up over something as trival as who would win in a fight, mind you a fight that no one could every find out who would really win. Besides we all know that Pun-Pun would stomp both sides.”

Yeah, if you read what they say, then you will catch on, their is a relevance to their debate that relates to the thread. Now some (Tippy) are just approaching this the wrong way. If we use logic, we can arrive at a conclusion, just as i state that using logics, a medieval fantasy world is not match for a modern high tech world. that has nukes.

“P.S. In case none of you didn't notice but I can't spell.”

It is ok, nether can I

Pastafarian

2007-02-18, 12:08 AM

As a different (and somewhat more serious) resolution to the magic vs. army scenario, I would like to point out that Tippy is making a big assumption when he says that the army will be untrained and uneducated conscripts. His initial statement just said an army the size of China's; he never said anything about composition, and he certainly didn't say that they didn't get any PC classes. An army that has been put through years of intensive training so that they are all level five plus and have at least one level in a PC class is still an army. Therefore, I would think that PC classes, rather than making armies irrelevant, would just force them to use well trained, dedicated professional soldiers rather than uneducated conscripts.

P.S. Please excuse any mistakes regarding D&D rules; almost all of what I know about them come from OOTS and this thread. I have never played D&D, and the existence of this argument has destroyed any desire to do so in the future.

Thantos

2007-02-18, 12:08 AM

When I said that he was right I was refering to the fact that magic only has rules if your a wizard any one else and it is art(yeah art has rules but they are very relaxed). Well although the ability to stop one nuke is easy for an epic spell why not just erase all of them while your at it. From what a gather from reading the epic stuff on the SRD Epic spells do what ever you want them to do. Now the more powerfull the longer it takes to research. Oh and yeah that bulet is all it takes how do you hit me from the ethral plane(the one ghost kind of live on) or while incorpral. None of your abilities work on me then. Nuke non-magical, gun could be but probable isn't so a ghost should be fine and would kill allot of people. Plus you would never get tired, when you rest you just go back to the ethral plane, and flying no longer takes up a spell anymore.

Now that being said, I do not agree with their tactics on how to show magic is more powerful than that of technology. Can technology make Pun-Pun or gods or any of the epic monsters? Can Technology kill the Tarquase(sp)? I don't think so, and if so show me where to get some of that stuff.

Oh and as much as I like logic, how can you put logic to something as imagintive as magic. Now don't just say "Look at the wizard" because our logic is very diferent than that of a wizards in D&D. Logic plus Magic = very confusing debate over fuzzy bunnies.

Well I thank you for not just bashing the hell out of me. Most people don't like me. The Wizards boards kinda hate me. Tend to let my mouth fly about stuff I shouldn't. But hey none of this paragraph maters just the other stuff in my post does.

Pastafarian

2007-02-18, 12:13 AM

Can Technology kill the Tarquase(sp)?
While I have very little idea what the Tarquase is, modern technology can kill pretty much anything that's alive. And what is Pun-Pun?

Renegade Paladin

2007-02-18, 12:26 AM

Pastafarian

2007-02-18, 12:32 AM

Pun-Pun is an abomination; a build that I have purposefully avoided seeing that makes the character using it infinitely powerful by level 5. Needless to say, any PC attempting such a feat should be struck down by the gods before attaining the power to threaten them.
Yet another thing to make me wonder why so many people would continue to play a game so unbalanced, unrealistic, and full of loopholes, especially when there are much superior alternatives.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-02-18, 12:35 AM

Existence: Hi, I'm Reality!
WotC: What? Reality?! Get out of here! No one wants you and your logic!
*stab*
Existence: I have been murdered to death!

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 12:42 AM

"When I said that he was right I was refering to the fact that magic only has rules if your a wizard any one else and it is art(yeah art has rules but they are very relaxed). "

No, in D&D they have a very strict magic system, that follows a system of very clearly laid out rules. Hell, in almost every story magic has rules. In Deathnote, their are rules which are clearly laid out. And their rules are breakable, unlike the rules of the real world (without magic), and often have consquences. Oh and arts rules vary on your culture.

"Well although the ability to stop one nuke is easy for an epic spell why not just erase all of them while your at it. From what a gather from reading the epic stuff on the SRD Epic spells do what ever you want them to do."

No you can't do anything. It is not that simple. If i was, i could make an epic wizard, walk around and go "I wipe all the (Insert think i don't like here) on the planet." Hell,even gods can't do that in the game. So no, you might stop indivisual nukes, but not the whole lot. And even if my first batch does not finish the job, i built some more. Hooray for tech.

"Now the more powerfull the longer it takes to research. Oh and yeah that bulet is all it takes how do you hit me from the ethral plane(the one ghost kind of live on) or while incorpral. None of your abilities work on me then. Nuke non-magical, gun could be but probable isn't so a ghost should be fine and would kill allot of people. Plus you would never get tired, when you rest you just go back to the ethral plane, and flying no longer takes up a spell anymore."

Ok if i am using mordern tech and fighter in a magic world, then you hanging out their will only work as long as it takes for me to find sombody else ot take my army their. And the etheral plane is full of dangers, that could attack you and do the work for me. And even if i can't find a mage, screw fighting you i'll just nuke all the countries i don't like and take over. As i said before, you might kill a lot, but not win.

"Now that being said, I do not agree with their tactics on how to show magic is more powerful than that of technology. Can technology make Pun-Pun or gods or any of the epic monsters?"

I can kill millions of people with the push of a butten. All of your epic monsters can be killed by people with med-evil tech. And don't use gods, it ruins the whole argument.

"Can Technology kill the Tarquase(sp)? I don't think so, and if so show me where to get some of that stuff."

Err, how the hell can i not kill the Tarquase with technology? I send a scout plan to find it, then nuke it. Barly any tatics their at all, and look, i killed it. Or, i use napalm or bombs. Or if i have to use infentry, i have my 5 million troops surrond it and shoot it like crazy. I am not even using any tatics at all their and it is dead. If a sword can kill it, so can a nuke.

"Oh and as much as I like logic, how can you put logic to something as imagintive as magic. Now don't just say "Look at the wizard" because our logic is very diferent than that of a wizards in D&D. Logic plus Magic = very confusing debate over fuzzy bunnies."

Logic can be used with anything. And magic in D&D, which is the magic we are talking about can certainly be talk about logically. Hell, why do you think their are all these threads decussing the rules, if you don't use logic?

"Well I thank you for not just bashing the hell out of me. Most people don't like me. The Wizards boards kinda hate me. Tend to let my mouth fly about stuff I shouldn't. But hey none of this paragraph maters just the other stuff in my post does."

I will proudly say
"I have no comment at this time."

Thantos

2007-02-18, 12:43 AM

I only use Pun-Pun as an example because he is funny, that is it would be funny if the gods let it happen.

But yes Pun-Pun is a bad example. Sorry. But what about epic spells as far as I can tell only divine intervention or another epic spell is on the same lvl as them so how does technology beat that.

By the way I think that they are just opisites tech and magic. Both equal in a way. Tech is the lowly commoners best freind while magic is more to the suiting of PCs.

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 12:45 AM

Tech can be used by anyone, just look at history. Tech is the thing that has put the human race were we are today. YOu can't deny tech's power. True, we most likly will all kill eachother with it, but still. Magic varies from world from world, but you can still relay on tech. And what is Pun Pun, is it a game or a type of character? I am very confused.

crazedloon

2007-02-18, 12:55 AM

But yes Pun-Pun is a bad example. Sorry. But what about epic spells as far as I can tell only divine intervention or another epic spell is on the same lvl as them so how does technology beat that.
Tech is a product of its environment. No one can predict what sort of technologies would be available but I’m sure you can make some educated guess. For example a magic/psionic void shield i.e. tech creates a shield all around person/place/thing that magic and or psionic abilities can’t penetrate. These were produced over a long period with a lot of testing but have proved a means for an army to protect its siege engines from enemy magic. One example I'm sure if I wasn’t so tired and up to the task I could come up with others.

Ok the best example from another game with similar situation is in Warhammer 40k there are beings with psychic powers much like a blend between psion and wizard. Well the Imperiam (humans) developed technology and did a little genetic manipulation (and breeding) to create assassins with the equivalent of no psychic field. This is like looking into a black hole for a psychic and can shatter their minds I could easily see this happening in a dnd world where tech is vs. magic.

Aquillion

2007-02-18, 12:56 AM

Guaranteed is a bad word to use. 'Highly likely' is a much more appropriate term, methinks. Nothing is guaranteed. It is technically possible to get 100 hits with 100 shots, just as it is technically possible to get no shots. The former is highly unlikely, the latter is unlikely but probably more likely than the former is.Don't forget that saving throws can also auto-fail with a roll of 1. If you have twelve or so third-or-fourth level mages casting simple spells like grease, glitterdust, or summon swarm in the direction of the PCs, people are going to start failing their saves eventually, falling down, getting blinded, losing actions to nausia, or whatever. Oh. And per the balance rules, simply standing on a grease spell makes you count as flat-footed unless you have five ranks in Balance, since you're actively trying to balance yourself, doesn't it? And every time you take damage, you have to save again, making all those natural 20's on the hail of arrows suddenly become much more deadly. At that point it becomes less heroic-heroes-smashing-army and more The Three Stooges do AD&D... and if someone falls or is blinded, another caster can take the chance to Ray of Enfeeblement them or something similar.

And, on top of that, glitterdust and grease have side-effects that will limit the PC's options. Give the army a few 3rd or 4th level clerics, and they can throw a silence spell or two as well, limiting the players' magical options.

If we assume the army has even one seventh-level caster (say, the leader or something similar) things get even worse. They have all sorts of options: Fear will force even more saves, and even if successful will give penalties to all the other countless saves and rolls the party is being forced to make (there's always someone with a weak save somewhere, so there's going to be people who will fail on more than a 1 anyway.) A higher-level cleric could use prayer, making all those rolls that much more dangerous.

Of course, if the PCs are fighting an army, that army probably has something even nastier leading it; a high-level caster, for instance. At that point their options are too many to enumerate.

Assume the army is too well-dispersed to take out effectively with fireballs or similar (which would be basic, basic military tactics in any D&D world) and they could easily smash any mid-level group of adventurers, and cause problems even for high-level ones if they have even a single similarly high-level caster backing them up.

It's the same basic rule that comes up all the time in D&D: The monsters only have to win once, while the players have to win every time; so anything that makes things more random makes things harder for the player. Absent extreme magical support (which falls into a whole different issue), forcing a few hundred roles that can all cause problems with a natural 1 or 20 (depending) can cause problems no matter how extreme the difference in levels is.

Lord Iames Osari

2007-02-18, 12:56 AM

Can Technology kill the Tarquase(sp)? I don't think so, and if so show me where to get some of that stuff.
Yes, actually. Allow me to demonstrate:

Step 1) Employ some kind of sedative gas - modern medical anaesthetics adapted for use as a chemical weapon. Blasting it at him continuously until he rolls a 1 on his Fort save and autofails, falling unconscious.

Step 2) Transport your snoozing Tarrasque to a specially-built sea-going ship which contains a pressure-sealed room large enough to hold the Tarrasque.

Step 3) Load the Tarrasque onto the ship, into the pressure-sealed room.

Step 4) Fill the room with the same sedative gas that you used in the first place and have multiple teams of trained anaesthesiologists watching it day and night, ensuring that the Tarrasque stays unconscious no matter what.

Step 5) Set sail to a point over the Mariana Trench (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench) in the Pacific Ocean.

Step 6) Open the gigantic airlock built into the floor of the pressure-sealed, sedative gas-filled room in which the Tarrasque is being held. The Tarrasque, not having any flight abilities and being in any case unconscious, will fall into the water. While it will no longer be receiving any anaesthetic, the effects should last long enough for the Tarrasque to a) drown and/or b) reach such a depth that the pressure will be sufficient to kill it.

@ EE: Nukes will not work because of the clause requiring a wish or miracle to keep it dead.

crazedloon

2007-02-18, 01:07 AM

If you were to add tech (on par with what we have today if not better) to this genra you would also need to start adding a little more relism to the actual abilitys. I.E. I can see a Tarrasque healing a huge hole int its side perhapse even half its body. However if its entire body was obliterated and its atoms where smashed to their base particals (pretty much what happens to you in the center of a nuke of the size we have today) you arent getting back up. their is nothing left of you even down to the atomic size. But then you get into stuff that no one can answer such as do the particals have a magic bond even at that level and if so how long would it take to reform the beast. So realy useing the Tarrasque as an exmaple of tech vs magic isnt realy a good one you need to compair simpler more common examples i.e. magic missle (a lvl 0 spell) vs your lowly conscript. In this case im sure that tech would be able to break down basic magic prinsibles at least far enough to create a negative magic field or something (i could ad BS sudo-science jargon here but realy we dont need that) that can stop or even reflect a magical attack.

After all when was the last time an army had a Tarrasque at thier disposal

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 01:09 AM

Thantos

2007-02-18, 01:12 AM

crazedloon

2007-02-18, 01:13 AM

Look at it this way, if i nuke the Tarrasque, then i have completly wipped it off the face of the earth. In game standards, i have reduced it to -10 hit points in one attack

And the the Tarrasque helped us during the american revolution. Honest.

why are you arguing with me im agreeing with you :smallwink:

Mewtarthio

2007-02-18, 01:36 AM

While I have very little idea what the Tarquase is, modern technology can kill pretty much anything that's alive. And what is Pun-Pun?

The Tarrasque is immortal. No mundane means can kill it. Even if you detonated a nuclear bomb right next to it, Big T would just get knocked unconscious (the same thing happens when you Disintigrate him). You could potentially keep him down for an indefinate amount of time, but you literally need a ninth-level spell to kill the Tarrasque, per RAW.

Pun-Pun is an abomination; a build that I have purposefully avoided seeing that makes the character using it infinitely powerful by level 5. Needless to say, any PC attempting such a feat should be struck down by the gods before attaining the power to threaten them.

Pun-pun isn't really an "abomination." It's meant as a thought exercise. Nobody is meant to play as Pun-pun. And it's a lot easier to follow than those weird Hulking Hurler builds or that trick that gets you something like 60 feats in twenty levels (and probably gets you nothing else).

LotharBot

2007-02-18, 01:40 AM

One thing that's been overlooked in the "PC classes vs modern tech" debate:

who's the DM?

Lord Iames Osari

2007-02-18, 01:48 AM

Yes, actually. Allow me to demonstrate:

Step 1) Employ some kind of sedative gas - modern medical anaesthetics adapted for use as a chemical weapon. Blasting it at him continuously until he rolls a 1 on his Fort save and autofails, falling unconscious.

Step 2) Transport your snoozing Tarrasque to a specially-built sea-going ship which contains a pressure-sealed room large enough to hold the Tarrasque.

Step 3) Load the Tarrasque onto the ship, into the pressure-sealed room.

Step 4) Fill the room with the same sedative gas that you used in the first place and have multiple teams of trained anaesthesiologists watching it day and night, ensuring that the Tarrasque stays unconscious no matter what.

Step 5) Set sail to a point over the Mariana Trench (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariana_Trench) in the Pacific Ocean.

Step 6) Open the gigantic airlock built into the floor of the pressure-sealed, sedative gas-filled room in which the Tarrasque is being held. The Tarrasque, not having any flight abilities and being in any case unconscious, will fall into the water. While it will no longer be receiving any anaesthetic, the effects should last long enough for the Tarrasque to a) drown and/or b) reach such a depth that the pressure will be sufficient to kill it.

The Tarrasque is immortal. No mundane means can kill it. Even if you detonated a nuclear bomb right next to it, Big T would just get knocked unconscious (the same thing happens when you Disintigrate him). You could potentially keep him down for an indefinate amount of time, but you literally need a ninth-level spell to kill the Tarrasque, per RAW.

Mewtarthio is correct; my method will not kill the tarrasque. However, my method will result in the tarrasque being trapped, unconscious, at the bottom of the Mariana Trench pretty much forever, taking 357d6 points of damage every minute and constantly drowning.

Beleriphon

2007-02-18, 05:55 AM

Mewtarthio is correct; my method will not kill the tarrasque. However, my method will result in the tarrasque being trapped, unconscious, at the bottom of the Mariana Trench pretty much forever, taking 357d6 points of damage every minute and constantly drowning.

I'm a big fan of mounting it on a rocket and blasting it into the Sun myself. Considerably more damage there.

Lord Iames Osari

2007-02-18, 06:05 AM

As long as there aren't any wish or miracle spells being cast on it in the Sun, it will still be alive. It's not even subject to explosive decompression on the way there...

Indon

2007-02-18, 10:15 AM

As long as there aren't any wish or miracle spells being cast on it in the Sun, it will still be alive. It's not even subject to explosive decompression on the way there...

Personally, I'd house rule that the sun, because the amount of damage it would deal is easily on the epic spell scale, circumvents the terrasques' regeneration through raw power.

PirateMonk

2007-02-18, 10:17 AM

Just what is this thing? Strangely enough, I found the Tarasque in a different system, and it was a half-dragon half-fish...

martyboy74

2007-02-18, 10:53 AM

Mr. T (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)

Stupid word count

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-02-18, 10:57 AM

The Tarrasque actually comes from an ancient legend, and looks nothing like the D&D Tarrasque. It was a monster that some saint tamed, but when the Tarrasque was brought back to town, the villagers stoned it to death while it did nothing to defend itself. I'd argue that if D&D magic were to fight against modern equipment, it'd be subject to more modern physics, and possibly the legends which they grew from.

So, the Tarrasque can be killed by a thousand peasants armed with stones, a dragon can be beaten by any determined jerk with a sword and shield, and mighty though a wizard may be, a single hero can waste them if he goes about it right. Because if this fight were to happen, it either happens here and the D&D army suddenly has to face logical (or mythological) restrictions, or it happens in D&D where the modern army can suddenly purchase magic for the sake of fighting fire with technology-enhanced fire.

PirateMonk

2007-02-18, 11:11 AM

The story they gave in the book said Saint Martha killed it with holy water.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-02-18, 11:19 AM

http://www.fairrosa.info/dragon/tarasque.html

That's a decent and quick retelling of the story. There was holy water involved in it's taming, but that's all Martha did- tame it. The villagers murdered it out of fear when it was led back.

okpokalypse

2007-02-18, 12:26 PM

Yes, actually. Allow me to demonstrate:

Step 1) Employ some kind of sedative gas - modern medical anaesthetics adapted for use as a chemical weapon. Blasting it at him continuously until he rolls a 1 on his Fort save and autofails, falling unconscious.

Won't work. The Tarrasque is immune to poisons. Sedative Gases and Anesthetics are Drugs, which fall under Poisons.

Lord Iames Osari

2007-02-18, 12:46 PM

:sigh: Okay, fine... Spam him with nukes. All ranges, all yields, dirty and clean, throw every nuke on the planet at the damn thing. It won't die, but when the bombardment ends, it should have several million points of nonlethal damage more than it's hp+10, if not several billion points. Let's call it 500,000,000 points of damage past the hp+10 mark. It will take the tarrasque (12,500,000 rounds = 1,250,000 minutes = 20,833 hours = 868 days = ...) 2 years and a bit to regenerate to hp+10. That's plenty of time to collect him and deliver him to the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 01:15 PM

Well yes tech can be used by anyone, that is the point of tech. But magic would be much more rare than tech. However Magic could possible be more powerful depending on how it works when compared to Tech. Can Tech replicate the wish spell? Can it replicate Epic spells? How about interdemnsional travel? Possible some day but not for a long time. So magic and tech are even, is my opion.

Besides who said D&D has anything to do with logic. Acording to the raw you can be at -9 hp and then start to drown and you go to zero hit points how does that make logical sense. Now normally when I say one thing I mean another, and in this case I ment our modern understanding of Physics and other sceince doesn't stack well with the concept of magic. Hence fuzzy bunnies.

Ok, one i don't think that is how drowning works, i pretty sure if you fail you swim check (which you would if not stable) , you would die.
D&D, while not the most realistic system, is an unbleavible logical system. While they are loop holes, the system is entirelly focused upon a very defined set of rules. Take wish spells and epic spells. Sure a mage can cast Wish, but will lose exp and possible screw himself over if his wisdom is not high enough. And wish is a 9th level spell, so you will not have many people with the strengh to cast it. With tech, anyone of any level can use basic tech, and advanced tech just needs training. If i was allowed to recuit every man and women in america above 25, and i had the worlds resources at my desposal, then i could make sure all of them at least have guns. As for Epic spells, they have a price and can only be cast by an epic spells caster. And if a interdemanal travel exist, tech could most likly find a way to adapt, which is its greast advantage. Look at history. The countries with the greatest tech would almost always win.
As for Physics, in D&D the laws of Physics are followed to an extent. Magic screws them up, but short of that they are all their i think. That means modern tech should act the same as it does here.

Oh and Crazy loon, i was not aiming that comment at you, i'm sorry. i agree with your point. I think Mr. T would die if we nuked him enough, maybe having to steal certain chemicals from the magic world he came from but...
Bear in mind, after being nuked, he could die from the radoaction poising. And if worst comes to worst, we launch him into space. His fast healing does not work for lack of air. Or starvation.
From,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 01:17 PM

Lord Iames Osari

2007-02-18, 01:22 PM

crazedloon

2007-02-18, 01:39 PM

But EE, you forget, even explosive decompression cannot kill the tarrasque, because he can't be killed without a wish or miracle. Hell, even shoving him into a black hole (or it's magical equivalent, a sphere of annihilation) won't kill him by RAW.

Next, someone is going to claim that the tarrasque's immunity to fire will protect it from the nukes.

wait wait that is not true as far as a sphere of annihilation goes. you are destryed not killed therefor it gets past anything the tarrasque may have as resistences or powers. Getting hit by one is sort of the anti tarrasque becuase you need devine intervention to get you back alive.

as far as a black hole is conserned i could see it somehow living through it (if you realy believe that it can survive being nuked) but it will be the size of a needles point suffering massive time dialation and unable to move so there realy wont be anything to worry about :smallwink:

Lord Iames Osari

2007-02-18, 01:45 PM

wait wait that is not true as far as a sphere of annihilation goes. you are destryed not killed therefor it gets past anything the tarrasque may have as resistences or powers. Getting hit by one is sort of the anti tarrasque becuase you need devine intervention to get you back alive.

as far as a black hole is conserned i could see it somehow living through it (if you realy believe that it can survive being nuked) but it will be the size of a needles point suffering massive time dialation and unable to move so there realy wont be anything to worry about :smallwink:

Does the sphere of annihilation duplicate a wish or miracle spell? No?
Gee... it looks like "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage) total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) or miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) spell to keep it dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead)."

Note: I am arguing this out of a sense of bitterness at the unreasonableness of the RAW, not because I actually disagree with people's positions.

Pastafarian

2007-02-18, 01:51 PM

I would probably say that just launching it into the sun would be plenty, Even if it couldn't be killed, there's no way it can get out or do anything, so it might as well be dead.

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 01:54 PM

But EE, you forget, even explosive decompression cannot kill the tarrasque, because he can't be killed without a wish or miracle. Hell, even shoving him into a black hole (or it's magical equivalent, a sphere of annihilation) won't kill him by RAW.

Next, someone is going to claim that the tarrasque's immunity to fire will protect it from the nukes.

I see what your saying and i understand we can't kill it. But as crazy loon says, we just nuke it to tiny pieces, then scrape them into a rocket and launch it into the sun. I surrpose i would still live, but it would be unable to trouble us, or anyone else for taht matter, so it is a win after all. here one question, is any really arguing anymore. Tippy's argument is prettymuch over, we have agreed that PC make a difference but not make armies irrelevant, the tarrasque can't be killed with tech but we can do the next best things, and a modern tech force can beat a midevil magic force. IS their anything else?
from,
EE

P.S. lovely argument by the way, it is really fun.

okpokalypse

2007-02-18, 01:56 PM

As to the meat of the actual debate at hand, there's a problem. All these people arguing are setting their own conditions because they were never laid out.

When talking about a war scenario some things need to be objectively drawn out. Such as what each side has. Are your grunts L1s, or L4s? Does your army employ casters? How do they keep them from defecting?

Then when talking about strategy, there's another ton of things to be objectively ascertained.

How long have the two sides been aware of the brewing conflict (preparation)? How much area is one defending / attacking? What is the given population of sides. What's the finite resource limit of the nation. Are the nations land-neighbors, or is sea-travel required?

These are all very relevant questions, and while I don't argeee with either attitude ET or LZ have issued forth, ET has a very good point in bringing up logistics. LZ, you have been using over-the-top examples of what your army is capable of, in addition to being dismissive of anything that questions the logistics of your stance. A 50-Million (trained soldiers as you state) Man army requires a population base of at least 1 Billion to support it. If he used Wizards expressly for destroying your supply trains, your troops would all be starving to death within a month. It's a legitimate tactic, and an Army of 3 doesn't not incur that hindrance.

However, taking a step back... It also bears weight on stating who is the agressor. If the L20 Casters are agressors, I feel they can initially do a lot of damage, but taking the entirety of a nation is a completely different thing altogether. They would instead be targetting leaders and capital cities to force you to surrender. Look at the damage 9/11 did to the economy of the US. Imagine that happening (on an equivalent scale) 5 times a day for a 2 weeks. These casters are capable of it. Could any nation withstand that kind of terrorist rampage?

If they (the L20 Casters) are defending, I think they've got a distinct advantage in that they should always know your next move (divinations) - and be able to counter it before it happens. Hell, if they had a few months notice that agression was a foregone conclusion, they might just glyph the entire shoreline with Fell Animated Fireballs. Or use greater stoneshapes to create an underwater shelf which will beach all the ships, cracking most hulls, a mile out to sea. Have that shelf have a glyph on it as well to produce hallucinatory terrain of land in the wrong direction. Or glyphs to summon loads of Large Fiendish Sharks.

In the end, preparation and knowledge favors the high-level caster 100-fold. And every scenario you're trying to establish takes those away.

Give me L20 Mage, Cleric and Psion PCs defending a 50 sq mi island with a population of 125,000, 6 months foreknowledge of invasion, and there's almost nothing that can be done against it.

However, in the whole "Defending the US" concept, it's much tougher because of the sheer border length to protect. At that point, if I've got morally questionalbe L20 casters who are willing to do anything to protect their country/peoples, they're teleporting in and laying waste to cities the instant you become agressive. (counter-agression)

Again though, this presumes you do not have significantly high-level casters within your ranks, or if you did, I would be immediately targetting them with my superior casters as my 1st step in counter-attacking.

If you'd like, set the ground rules objectively, and hash it out - but this subjective reasoning gets us all nowhere when all is said and done.

crazedloon

2007-02-18, 02:05 PM

Does the sphere of annihilation duplicate a wish or miracle spell? No?
Gee... it looks like "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage) total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) or miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) spell to keep it dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead)."

Note: I am arguing this out of a sense of bitterness at the unreasonableness of the RAW, not because I actually disagree with people's positions.
lol i get your argument :smallwink:

but your problem is you are citing the wrong rules the rules you need to cite are the spheres as its doing the "killing" sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation) the important thing to note is that the tarrasque is made of matter and by the spheres rules = Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed so thier aint anything for the tarrasque to regen cus it ainthing there :smallwink:

okpokalypse

2007-02-18, 02:06 PM

Yeah, he has a point. If the radoation does not kill him, lauch the remains into space. Its even better than the Mariana Trench. And if worst comes to worst, we build somthing that works. Ah the glories of tech.

I would assume his carapace would effectively protect him from radiation - kind of like a giant roach. Or is radiation treated as a disease (another thing it's immune to)?

As for the whole fire immunity, I don't think it stands. I would classify a nuke as at least being hellfire - which isn't subject to fire resistance (Yay Fiendish Codex II).

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 02:07 PM

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 02:09 PM

I would assume his carapace would effectively protect him from radiation - kind of like a giant roach. Or is radiation treated as a disease (another thing it's immune to)?

As for the whole fire immunity, I don't think it stands. I would classify a nuke as at least being hellfire - which isn't subject to fire resistance (Yay Fiendish Codex II).

Yeah, i have to agree with the fire part, except i would say Napalm is a bit like hell fire. A nuke is more like super special awsome hell fire. As for the giant roach, well i can't say really

From,
EE

crazedloon

2007-02-18, 02:10 PM

I would assume his carapace would effectively protect him from radiation - kind of like a giant roach. Or is radiation treated as a disease (another thing it's immune to)?
the only problem is with the nuke the carapace shouldnt be still in tact to protect it. (thats a lot of damage and no where does it say that the tarrasque cant be taken appart or loped into peices its just realy hard to do)

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 02:14 PM

Oh yeah, that makes sense. Considering that a nuke can take apart a fair chunk of a city, i imagine it could destroy the shell.
From,
EE

okpokalypse

2007-02-18, 04:39 PM

Nice point about the arguments. However, the wizard would lose in the end, because they are up against to much, and when 1 dies, that is a whole 10 percent of their force. Not to mention all the spells that they run out of and then they are vaulable to a well planned attack, with a general who know how to fight wizards. he can cause a massive amount of damage but he can't win. However, his point is still their, 20, level 20 wizards would do tons of damage to the enemy force compared to a normal army.
From,
EE

You can't really count downtime for high-end PC casters unfortunately. There's too many wys to either gain access or create one's own temporally accellerated plane (pocket-plane) of existence.

In one example, a L20 Psion (Shaper) can easily have his own Pocket Plane (via Genesis) where time moves 100x faster than on the prime material. So for him to plane shift, get 8 hours of rest, and plane shift back, takes only 288 Prime-Material Seconds, or, just under 5 Minutes. If you've got Psions, Clerics and Mage with access to these kinds of environments (which at that level they likely do) - you're facing a nearly perpetual, non-stop barrage of casting. Unless you can wage the entire seige inside of 5 minutes, and the don't have caster redundancy, that is :).

Winterking

2007-02-18, 06:37 PM

Just a belated interjection about medieval armies and conscription...

No medieval army consisted entirely of conscript mooks with pointy sticks. Even the least professional feudal armies contained large numbers of highly-trained, well-equipped professional (or very good amateur) soldiers--particularly knights and mercenaries.
-Early medieval (Viking, Frankish, Anglo-saxon) armies had elite fighters: housecarls, berserkers, royal/noble guards, in addition to the nobility themselves, whose primary role in society was combat.
-In most of the Crusades, the Christian armies fielded armored knights (probably at least L4 fighters), mercenary crossbowmen (at least L1 fighters) in addition to less-trained pikemen and similar foot soldiers.
-Mongol armies at this time period were even more frightening--large numbers of experienced, skilled horse archers.
-Byzantine armies were likewise peppered with professional and elite forces. Without getting into groups like the Varangian Guard, each Byzantine province (theme) was garrisoned by citizen-soldiers, who, while not heavily equipped, were used to combat and were generally given extra training before campaigns. Also, the Empire had several thousand professional soldiers, mostly heavy cavalrymen or marines (the tagmata), who were heavily armored.

Even if you assume a medieval army facing your high-level spellcasters, there are going to be better trained, better-equipped fighting men in that army, and in numbers far exceeding your own. Not just schmucks with sticks. The guerilla tactics various people have mentioned suddenly become a lot more feasible; even if the army's elites are spread out one per ten mooks, they can still lead that squad of mooks in hit-and-run-away-from-the-wizards combat. Armies such as the Mongols--experts in highly mobile, fluid warfare--and the Byzantines--who, at least in the 10th C, were skilled guerilla fighters--and the Arabs, Turks, and others, would pose a serious threat to high-level wizards. Just not in the stereotypical medievalist fantasy way.

Matthew

2007-02-18, 06:41 PM

This is all true, but assigning D&D statistics to these real world characters is going to be variable at best (i.e. "No Man, Tancred was totally 20th Level!" and "Genoese Mercenary Cross Bow Men were Fighter 6, easily")
Defining and applying mutually agreed terms has not been one of this thread's strong points...

Pastafarian

2007-02-18, 06:52 PM

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 09:05 PM

You can't really count downtime for high-end PC casters unfortunately. There's too many wys to either gain access or create one's own temporally accellerated plane (pocket-plane) of existence.

In one example, a L20 Psion (Shaper) can easily have his own Pocket Plane (via Genesis) where time moves 100x faster than on the prime material. So for him to plane shift, get 8 hours of rest, and plane shift back, takes only 288 Prime-Material Seconds, or, just under 5 Minutes. If you've got Psions, Clerics and Mage with access to these kinds of environments (which at that level they likely do) - you're facing a nearly perpetual, non-stop barrage of casting. Unless you can wage the entire seige inside of 5 minutes, and the don't have caster redundancy, that is :).

I don't know if your allowed to do that to do that time situation, depends on your DM. Any rules lawyers who like pyonics who can shed some light on that. Because if I made a level 20 shaper with that, and had them make a plane like that, then no party can beat him.
Anyways, when you have 5 million enemies, then you have 5 million people who could possible kill you. That also means you have 5 millon people who can do unexpected things. Short of your pocket plane idea, you are going to have your hands full simple keeping the army at bay. When the reserve force, of maybe 1 millon are being expertly trained in that time, or proffesnals are bieng hiried, or they are figuring out anti wizard planes that will defeat you, or they are destroying your country. Maybe you did not care at all for you country, but their is always a possible way that one of your guys dies, and then you whole plan starts to degrade, with all your guys having to pick up the slacke, then enougher is killed, and ect.

"One out of twenty is five percent actually.
While one out of 50 million is two millionths of a percent (.000002%)."

Err, lets ignore my bad math skills and say it never happened. Like global warming.

From,
EE

Mewtarthio

2007-02-18, 09:27 PM

I don't know if your allowed to do that to do that time situation, depends on your DM. Any rules lawyers who like pyonics who can shed some light on that. Because if I made a level 20 shaper with that, and had them make a plane like that, then no party can beat him.

You can't. Genesis (the power in question) does not allow you to alter time traits. I'm not even sure if there are any planes in the default cosmology with such a time trait as is being discussed here (short of the Far Realms, which are both difficult to access and insuitable for rest).

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 09:31 PM

Thank you, you proved my point.
From,
EE

Sardia

2007-02-18, 10:20 PM

In one example, a L20 Psion (Shaper) can easily have his own Pocket Plane (via Genesis) where time moves 100x faster than on the prime material. So for him to plane shift, get 8 hours of rest, and plane shift back, takes only 288 Prime-Material Seconds, or, just under 5 Minutes. If you've got Psions, Clerics and Mage with access to these kinds of environments (which at that level they likely do) - you're facing a nearly perpetual, non-stop barrage of casting. Unless you can wage the entire seige inside of 5 minutes, and the don't have caster redundancy, that is :).[/QUOTE]

This could just mean you go broke faster. Assuming the 20th level, Int 19 wizard (to get those 9th level spells) feels like being paid his normal NPC spellcasting rate for his battlefield performance, it's 38,000 gold every time he casts every spell in his head.
Or you can hire 125,000 run-of-the-mill mercenaries (at 3 silver a day) and still have some coin left over for officers.

afternoon

2007-02-18, 11:00 PM

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 11:01 PM

OK the pocket plane idea does not work i take it?
from,
EE

Winterking

2007-02-18, 11:26 PM

This topic gets at two flaws in the system of a D&D world. Either

1) PCs are powerful enough to defeat entire armies single-handedly, or at least take out large chunks of soldiers, or

2) Army personell are powerful enough that there is essentially no need for adventurers, besides errands too "trivial" for the local soldiers to deal with.

There's a whole slew of things that wouldn't make sense in a world like option #1, and the second just plain isn't fun (doesn't make sense either.) In conclusion, you just have to take it with a grain of salt... it's fiction.

I really don't think either is the case.
Regarding #1:Almost any army is going to have elite personnel, who are likely to rise near to the maximum level of ability possible. In the real world, armies have Special Forces, which are near the peak of training, equipment, competence, and courage. While one country's SF may be technically superior to anothers', if the states are similar (ie, not the US vs Tahiti, but rather vs China or the UK or Russia or France) the elites will be close--close enough to hurt the opposing side's elites.
In a D&D world, where characters can rise to nigh-godly power levels, the armies of the world are going to have elite troopers at PC level. And just like modern special forces, or attack fighters, or battlecruisers, their opponents are not, generally, the running-around mooks, but rather their opposite numbers among the foe. (as many have discussed in far greater detail earlier in the thread) Historically, battleships did not spend their time chasing fishing boats.
If the world is constructed such that armies are only low-level, while characters can easily rise to high levels, then the world is unrealistic, and it's a fault of the DM.

Regarding #2: No matter how talented the army is, there are going to be tasks which a small, diversified group of skilled individuals (adventurers) are better fit to handle. The army is not likely to pay its soldiers to go digging around random, cursed, and spooky dungeons--while the troops were off doing that, enemy/neighbor A invades. Likewise, the main body of the army will not be tasked for infiltration, sabotage, prisoner rescue, espionage, counter-espionage, item retrieval, or similar special tasks. The army may have special squads designed to do that (Special Forces, etc), but as I mentioned above, that's practically the same thing as PC-class adventurers.

EvilElitest

2007-02-18, 11:44 PM

Yeah, that is pretty much the final answer.
From,
EE

Yahzi

2007-02-19, 01:30 AM

Three words: World War One

"Hey, Francis, all the soldiers we send charging into machine gun fire tend to get slaughtered horribly."
"I see... We must not be sending enough soldiers! CHARGE!"

:smallbiggrin:

Ya, tech is cheaper, longer range, and vastly more deadly (D&D Fireballs struggle to get through castle walls).

The way I envisage medieval armies with magic is that the low-levels are there to be trip-wires. Once a high-level gets into the game, he's revealed himself - and we all know that D&D duels are normally decided in the first round. So the high-levels are hiding, waiting for the low-ranks to flush out the other high-levels so they can jump on them.

Thus, the armys are still important.

PirateMonk

2007-02-19, 09:51 AM

Vik

2007-02-19, 10:05 AM

About the tarrasque : it is immune to fire. You can forget the sun and the nuke (which will fall in the fire damage department, in D&D). Radiations could be assimilated to ability damage (Con), so it's out as well.

To imprison the Tarraque by nowadays means is just not feasible within D&D rules : the Tarraque inflicts a minimum of 50 damage per attack (from Power attack), breaking through anything.

Also, it can swim and won't take pressure damage for a long time (Fort saves). One could also point that the pressure damage should be maxed at 20d6, quite unimpressive compared to the regeneration of 40 - that's only a 30 average damage per minute if the save is failed.

PirateMonk

2007-02-19, 10:30 AM

About the tarrasque : it is immune to fire. You can forget the sun and the nuke (which will fall in the fire damage department, in D&D). Radiations could be assimilated to ability damage (Con), so it's out as well.

To imprison the Tarraque by nowadays means is just not feasible within D&D rules : the Tarraque inflicts a minimum of 50 damage per attack (from Power attack), breaking through anything.

Also, it can swim and won't take pressure damage for a long time (Fort saves). One could also point that the pressure damage should be maxed at 20d6, quite unimpressive compared to the regeneration of 40 - that's only a 30 average damage per minute if the save is failed.

Sure, it's immune to the heat (maybe, I'm still not convinced) but it can't move fast enough to get back to Earth within a human lifespan, if it can at all.

Dervag

2007-02-19, 10:39 AM

About the tarrasque : it is immune to fire. You can forget the sun and the nuke (which will fall in the fire damage department, in D&D). Radiations could be assimilated to ability damage (Con), so it's out as well.Well, a nuclear weapon has three major sources of damage. Arguably, it should deal three separate damage types.

One is the thermal pulse. This is definitely fire or heat damage, and your argument is appropriate for it.

The second is the neutron pulse. Neutrons can penetrate pretty much any normal matter, so they end up uniformly embedded in the atoms of everything near the blast. Any atom that picks up a neutron becomes radioactive, which means that (ah, the sweet screams of catgirls) the Tarrasque is now riddled with secondary radiation sources. If that's modeled as ability damage, OK, because that makes sense. But the damage from a neutron pulse at close range would probably actually cause noticeable ongoing tissue damage (like acid).

The third is the shockwave- the blast of overpressure as the nuke pushes the surrounding air away, followed by the implosion as the air rushes back in. If you've ever seen footage of dummy houses and such that were near ground zero of an atomic test, you've seen the way the shockwave slaps the walls back and forth.

The shockwave should probably deal sonic or force damage because it's a pure concussion. It isn't necessarily hot; it isn't necessarily radioactive; it's just this huge wall of pressure that smashes into you and then backhands you a few seconds later.

Of course, if you really want to kill off (or cripple) the Tarrasque with a nuke, lure it into the ocean and detonate the bomb underwater. That magnifies the 'shockwave' component enormously.

As for trapping it in space, that should work. Unless the Tarrasque has the ability to fly by willpower alone, or unless it comes with built in rocket boosters, it won't be able to move in a vacuum because it will have nothing to push against.

EvilElitest

2007-02-19, 11:31 AM

About the tarrasque : it is immune to fire. You can forget the sun and the nuke (which will fall in the fire damage department, in D&D). Radiations could be assimilated to ability damage (Con), so it's out as well.

To imprison the Tarraque by nowadays means is just not feasible within D&D rules : the Tarraque inflicts a minimum of 50 damage per attack (from Power attack), breaking through anything.

Also, it can swim and won't take pressure damage for a long time (Fort saves). One could also point that the pressure damage should be maxed at 20d6, quite unimpressive compared to the regeneration of 40 - that's only a 30 average damage per minute if the save is failed.

Also i think that the fire from a nuke would count as hellfire (see fiendish codex II). Heck, napalm is a bit like hellfire as it is. And even if i trap the Tarraque into the sun, their is no way it gona get out.
From,
EE

Vik

2007-02-19, 11:42 AM

The third is the shockwave- the blast of overpressure as the nuke pushes the surrounding air away, followed by the implosion as the air rushes back in. If you've ever seen footage of dummy houses and such that were near ground zero of an atomic test, you've seen the way the shockwave slaps the walls back and forth. I'm pretty much aware of what an atomic bomb do. But in D&D, any explosion is only fire damage. That may sounds absurd, but so is electricity damage.
Edit : I guess that it could be modeled as Fireball with admixture energy - sound. The damage, output, however, would be a good question. I'm thinking about it.

As for trapping it in space, that should work. Unless the Tarrasque has the ability to fly by willpower alone, or unless it comes with built in rocket boosters, it won't be able to move in a vacuum because it will have nothing to push against. Wrong : it can sever its own limbs and throw them hard in the opposite direction it wants to go. It will takes time on the earth-sun distance, but you can't imprison it for a long time, so ...

Sam K

2007-02-19, 01:11 PM

This is all moot.

IF magic and technology was to clash, we'd all be killed in a massive catgirl explosion. All except the tarrasque, since there would be noone to cast wish or miracle on it when we were all dead.

Thus magic would win.

crazedloon

2007-02-19, 01:33 PM

Wrong : it can sever its own limbs and throw them hard in the opposite direction it wants to go. It will takes time on the earth-sun distance, but you can't imprison it for a long time, so ...

Tell me how that will overcome the pull of gravity by the sun :smallwink: .the sun is also pressure damage when you go into it not just heat. Then when it’s in space its cold damage and pressure damage (now whether there is such a thing as pressure damage I have no clue I would say it is much like force damage)
Also there is the fact that in space before getting to the sun its blood and any other liquid in its body will probably boil out of the thing I still have a hard time believing it will be able to live if thrown into the sun.

Renrik

2007-02-19, 01:40 PM

Why are we discussing the tarrasque? Isn't it kind of a moot point? You can;t use it for military reasons with any reliability. It can't really be controlled, and it kills everything it sees. Plus, there's no guarantee that once it wakes up, it'll go on any particular route. It'll just wander around, killing. Probably heading for some major cities when it gets hungry enough. Hell, if the tarrasque shows up on the battlefield, your only option is to break off the battle and run, or hope that your army just happens to contain some ECL 20+ characters with awesome magic artifacts.

okpokalypse

2007-02-19, 02:00 PM

You can't. Genesis (the power in question) does not allow you to alter time traits. I'm not even sure if there are any planes in the default cosmology with such a time trait as is being discussed here (short of the Far Realms, which are both difficult to access and insuitable for rest).

You are correct - it was revised in 3.5. In 3.0 you were allowed to completely customize your demiplane - down to the time.

However, there are still a plethora of planes where time is faster. I don't have it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Mechanus and Sigil both are temporally divergent from the Prime Material - so one could always establish a haven there and use it for such purposes.

okpokalypse

2007-02-19, 02:06 PM

This could just mean you go broke faster. Assuming the 20th level, Int 19 wizard (to get those 9th level spells) feels like being paid his normal NPC spellcasting rate for his battlefield performance, it's 38,000 gold every time he casts every spell in his head.

Or you can hire 125,000 run-of-the-mill mercenaries (at 3 silver a day) and still have some coin left over for officers.

That's assuming you're hiring the NPC Wizard - and not that he's just defending his homeland. At no point was the cost to just hire the soldiers of the army mention - though outfitting and supplies were.

EvilElitest

2007-02-19, 02:54 PM

So is this thread a moot point now?
From,
EE

PhoenixRising

2007-02-19, 04:56 PM

I use Warhammer rules for my mass combat, with the party having to deal with enemies. Also, as they've leveled up, they've moved to a more central combat role. So far, no problems (although flanking bonuses that increase as there are more flankers don't hurt).

Nerd-o-rama

2007-02-19, 05:07 PM

So is this thread a moot point now?
From,
EE
What do you mean now?

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-02-19, 05:09 PM

Come to think of it, wouldn't mass combat for PC's work best when the players are enticed to keep their allies alive? Like, maybe their experience at the end of the battle isn't determined by their kills, but how many troops they managed to save from icky stabbity death? I don't know about you, but I'd keep my EXP chunks as healthy as possible in that case, even if it means putting my character in a little danger.

Cybren

2007-02-19, 05:11 PM

Come to think of it, wasn't there a new version of Chainmail a while back? You could always resolve mass combat by just playing a different game.

Sam K

2007-02-19, 05:39 PM

PCs, even high level ones, will not make armies irrelevant, because:

1. Noone can afford them. Seriously, what can a king offer a lvl 20 wizard? Sure, the king is rich, but his wealth is mostly in land and goods. He has an army (which is equipmed to a decent standard), servants, several castles, farms, and all kinds of things to make his life more comfortable. What he does not have is a million gold pieces. He may have some magic items, but the most powerful ones will be family heirlooms (and he's as likely to give away the family greatsword +5 as he is to give away his crown), and the lesser ones will have been passed out among his most trusted retainers. Are you gonna disarm the captain of your bodyguard to pay the mercenary wizard? It's simply alot easier for a king to raise an army than to raise the gold to pay lvl 20 mercenaries.
Also, while a wizard might accept payment in forms a king can pay, the king may not be willing to give it to him. Do you REALLY want a high level wizard living in a castle outside of the capital? Who knows when he decides to research the 'summon tarrasque' spell? Or when his lvl 21 enemy comes looking for him?

This is all being generous and assuming you can hire JUST the wizard. Imagine if he's part of a party, and will only fight as part of that group. It's bad enough paying the wizard, now imagine paying for his lvl 20 barb, rogue and paladin friends as well.

2. Adventurers are more trouble than they're worth. High level adventurers tend to upset the chains of command. They dont respect nobility, they disagree with your generals and they're accustomed to a completely different style of warfare than your officers are. And you need to be able to deal with those nobles and officers for several years: do you REALLY want to challenge their authority by bringing in outsiders?

On the flip side, charismatic and successfull adventurers can come to challenge your position. Once your army has seen the courage, skill and power of that lvl 20 warrior, they may start asking themselves why they follow some lvl 6 aristocrat king. "But they're loyal to their country!" you say? Fair enough. But loving the country doesn't always mean loving the leader.

3. In most cases, they aren't that efficient. Except for high level casters, how much use are adventurers on the battlefield? Sure, a lvl 20 fighter can kill 10 men a round, but so can a unit of 30 lvl 1 archers, and they dont cost nearly as much. Even wizards aren't always that efficient for what you pay them. Sure, they can slaughter an enemy army, but most likely so could a well equiped, trained and led army of lvl 1s, if you get more of them than the enemy. One thousand extra elite mercenaries may cost less than a wizard, and be more efficient, not to mention causing you less trouble.

Mewtarthio

2007-02-19, 06:12 PM

1. Noone can afford them. Seriously, what can a king offer a lvl 20 wizard? Sure, the king is rich, but his wealth is mostly in land and goods. He has an army (which is equipmed to a decent standard), servants, several castles, farms, and all kinds of things to make his life more comfortable. What he does not have is a million gold pieces. He may have some magic items, but the most powerful ones will be family heirlooms (and he's as likely to give away the family greatsword +5 as he is to give away his crown), and the lesser ones will have been passed out among his most trusted retainers. Are you gonna disarm the captain of your bodyguard to pay the mercenary wizard? It's simply alot easier for a king to raise an army than to raise the gold to pay lvl 20 mercenaries.

Fair enough.

Also, while a wizard might accept payment in forms a king can pay, the king may not be willing to give it to him. Do you REALLY want a high level wizard living in a castle outside of the capital? Who knows when he decides to research the 'summon tarrasque' spell? Or when his lvl 21 enemy comes looking for him?

You know, not all Wizards research random spells like "summon Tarrasque" to kill their employers. The point about the Wizard being involved in more important matters (and possibly dragging your kingdom of low-level characters into an epic-level affair) stands, though.

This is all being generous and assuming you can hire JUST the wizard. Imagine if he's part of a party, and will only fight as part of that group. It's bad enough paying the wizard, now imagine paying for his lvl 20 barb, rogue and paladin friends as well.

You assume that Wizards tend to run around in parties. And that, if you could theoretically amass enough money to entice a Wizard, he'd turn it down for the sake of loyalty to a few friends. Heck, he's not even betraying his friends: He's just taking a side job.

2. Adventurers are more trouble than they're worth. High level adventurers tend to upset the chains of command. They dont respect nobility, they disagree with your generals and they're accustomed to a completely different style of warfare than your officers are. And you need to be able to deal with those nobles and officers for several years: do you REALLY want to challenge their authority by bringing in outsiders?

You assume that all high-level characters are adventurers, though that's actually pretty likely (running around the multiverse fighting the strongest things you can take does tend to strengthen one). Still, they can't exactly be subordinate, since if a level-twenty guy is running around in an army, he will be the head honcho. It doesn't matter how bad at strategy and tactics he is: People will idolize him and worship him as a hero (or else cower before him in fear). Your nobles probably won't mind the breaches in etiquette caused by a level-twenty Wizard who can alter reality at a whim, or a level-twenty druid who can turn the very earth into your enemy's opponent even as he transforms himself into a fearsome avatar of nature, or a level-twenty fighter who can... uh... fight really well.

On the flip side, charismatic and successfull adventurers can come to challenge your position. Once your army has seen the courage, skill and power of that lvl 20 warrior, they may start asking themselves why they follow some lvl 6 aristocrat king. "But they're loyal to their country!" you say? Fair enough. But loving the country doesn't always mean loving the leader.

But "loyal to the country" would certainly preclude ousting the current king in lieu of a total stranger who's a lot tougher. That sort of thing only happens in an unstable society. Heck, look at the United States: Do you really think that if we hired French mercenaries who successfully eliminate all terrorism in the world that the American people would demand that the mercenaries be allowed to run in the next election?

3. In most cases, they aren't that efficient. Except for high level casters, how much use are adventurers on the battlefield? Sure, a lvl 20 fighter can kill 10 men a round, but so can a unit of 30 lvl 1 archers, and they dont cost nearly as much. Even wizards aren't always that efficient for what you pay them. Sure, they can slaughter an enemy army, but most likely so could a well equiped, trained and led army of lvl 1s, if you get more of them than the enemy. One thousand extra elite mercenaries may cost less than a wizard, and be more efficient, not to mention causing you less trouble.

True. If, however, you have the services of a loyal Wizard already (which is what many of these posts assume)...

Of course, the rarity of high-level characters in most settings means that mid-low-level NPCs still have plenty to do. You don't hire an Olympic weightlifter to help you move furniture, and you wouldn't expect high-level PCs to involve themselves in lesser affairs. A border skirmish will feature low-level guys; a series of battles in neutral territory will feature mid-level mercenaries; an all-out invasion will feature the highest levels out there.

Winterking

2007-02-19, 06:59 PM

But "loyal to the country" would certainly preclude ousting the current king in lieu of a total stranger who's a lot tougher. That sort of thing only happens in an unstable society.

Ah, but when the greatest force rests with someone outside the government, that's a fairly unstable society. If enough power rests in the hands of people outside the governing structure, sooner or later some of those people are going to decide they want to be in charge--power corrupts, after all.
Plus, the L20 might be too foreign to inspire a rebellion, but Slimy McGreedy, the local power-hungry noble, isn't, and he probably won't mind being just a figurehead. With the "face" a trusty citizen, the L20 could rule quite effectively. The original king would not be keen on that possibility.

Also, mercenaries (which adventurers basically are) of any type are notorious for taking advantage of a weak employer. In the 1000s, the Pope and the Byzantine empire both hired Norman mercenaries to fight in south Italy. The employers were much weaker than the mercenaries. Robert Guiscard, the Norman leader, noticed this, and by the time he died, southern Italy was a Norman kingdom. Oops.

Mewtarthio

2007-02-19, 07:57 PM

Ah, but when the greatest force rests with someone outside the government, that's a fairly unstable society. If enough power rests in the hands of people outside the governing structure, sooner or later some of those people are going to decide they want to be in charge--power corrupts, after all.
Plus, the L20 might be too foreign to inspire a rebellion, but Slimy McGreedy, the local power-hungry noble, isn't, and he probably won't mind being just a figurehead. With the "face" a trusty citizen, the L20 could rule quite effectively. The original king would not be keen on that possibility.

Also, mercenaries (which adventurers basically are) of any type are notorious for taking advantage of a weak employer. In the 1000s, the Pope and the Byzantine empire both hired Norman mercenaries to fight in south Italy. The employers were much weaker than the mercenaries. Robert Guiscard, the Norman leader, noticed this, and by the time he died, southern Italy was a Norman kingdom. Oops.

One problem: When you hire the mercenaries, you can scan them to see if they're Lawful Good. That's a virtual guarantee of trustworthiness so long as you're not overtly cruel to your people. If they've got a Paladin with them, that's a literal guarantee.

And if they're Chaotic Evil, they probably intend to opportunistically commandeer your nation anyway. The important thing is that you don't hire them so that they don't have any heroism in the eyes of your people.

Sardia

2007-02-19, 08:29 PM

That's assuming you're hiring the NPC Wizard - and not that he's just defending his homeland. At no point was the cost to just hire the soldiers of the army mention - though outfitting and supplies were.

You'll probably have to hire a few, assuming they're out there for hire. If you assume that your own wizards may or may not care to go out risking their lives on the battlefield (and why should they, if they can sit in their towers and cast spells for huge sums), you might have a wizard gap.

Come to think of it, the notion of the patriotic defensive wizard could cause a situation where warfare is generally disadvantageous-- your own wizards prefer to sit at home on the attack, but will rally to the defense if attacked, so even nations with similar numbers of wizards would find it difficult to invade one another.

Variable Arcana

2007-02-19, 08:31 PM

Just a passing thought....

It's not the existence of 20th level PCs that invalidates medieval military tactics -- it's magic itself. Change the tech and you change the tactics.

Also... one more way to trivially wipe out an unreasonably large number of soldiers of up to level 2 (even with some higher level officers and non-coms): introduce a handful of wights, or a single spectre (CR:7). Either way, exponentially increasing hordes of undead will quickly outnumber the living. (They kill anything up to lvl 2 with a single incorporeal touch. Those in turn rise as new spectres in 1d4 rounds... One spectre becomes ten spectres in about a minute, by my rough calculation -- the only limit on their expansion should be the 80' fly speed. Most of the army should be gone by dawn.)

EvilElitest

2007-02-19, 09:47 PM

One reason why you don't see high level PC's running around, even taking into acount how rare they are (if it is an interplanar world then you might have a ton) is that they often have somthing to do. Think about it, most level 10 up have a whole list of "arch rivals" who try to twart their plans however they can. By level 20, most PCs have their hands full. Also high level adventures do bring nothing but trouble. SHould they fight in your city, then they will often destroy half of it with hteir mass descrution spells,their summoned monesters, their overpowered foes, and their magic weapons.
No wonder simple troops are safer.
From,
EE

SpiderBrigade

2007-02-19, 09:47 PM

I'm pretty much aware of what an atomic bomb do. But in D&D, any explosion is only fire damage. That may sounds absurd, but so is electricity damage.
Edit : I guess that it could be modeled as Fireball with admixture energy - sound. The damage, output, however, would be a good question. I'm thinking about it.I don't know if it's necessarily true that all explosions are only fire damage. Are there lots of stats for chemical explosives? Most of the "blasts" I know of are magical spells or similiar effects, rather than a "bomb" as we know it. But even if that's true, there is the shockwave effect as mentioned.

Obviously the damage is going to vary a lot by size and where the bomb detonates (airburst vs ground, etc). And I think it'd be a lot of damage. I mean, we're talking buildings completely knocked down, rubbleized, with some things at the center vaporized.

Wrong : it can sever its own limbs and throw them hard in the opposite direction it wants to go. It will takes time on the earth-sun distance, but you can't imprison it for a long time, so ...With Big T's intelligence score of 3...I don't see him figuring this out. Plus, as mentioned, he's at the center of the sun.

Also i think that the fire from a nuke would count as hellfire (see fiendish codex II). Heck, napalm is a bit like hellfire as it is.Have to disagree with this. I'm not familiar with this "hellfire" damage, but I presume that it has something to do with supernatural evil. Napalm is really hot, sure. But so is lava. Things that are immune to fire can literally swim through lava. And neither napalm nor a nuclear bomb ar powered by supernatural evil. So as sad as it is, big T would be unphased by the heat portion of an atomic blast.

Actually...isn't it plausible that the radiation would give the guy a breath weapon, and he'd be godzilla?

Winterking

2007-02-19, 09:59 PM

One problem: When you hire the mercenaries, you can scan them to see if they're Lawful Good. That's a virtual guarantee of trustworthiness so long as you're not overtly cruel to your people. If they've got a Paladin with them, that's a literal guarantee.

And if they're Chaotic Evil, they probably intend to opportunistically commandeer your nation anyway. The important thing is that you don't hire them so that they don't have any heroism in the eyes of your people.

How Lawful Good is it to wander around fighting for anyone who will pay you (as mercenaries do)? Plus, if you get Lawful Good mercenaries/adventurers, you'll only be able to use them for Lawful Good purposes--they won't be keen on attacking your weak and/or annoying neighbor whose border town would look so much better on your side of the border. So unless your war is a "Stop the Evil Badness" crusade (in which case the Lawful Goods are probably fighting already), the Lawful Good mercs are useless.

Lawful Neutral is a better bet, and if their law-code lines up with yours, you're right, they should be fine. Of course, they might have ways around your alignment scanning...

PirateMonk

2007-02-19, 10:02 PM

Wrong : it can sever its own limbs and throw them hard in the opposite direction it wants to go. It will takes time on the earth-sun distance, but you can't imprison it for a long time, so ...

As above, there is no way it will a) figure it out and b) achieve escape velocity.

PCs, even high level ones, will not make armies irrelevant, because:

1. Noone can afford them. Seriously, what can a king offer a lvl 20 wizard? Sure, the king is rich, but his wealth is mostly in land and goods. He has an army (which is equipmed to a decent standard), servants, several castles, farms, and all kinds of things to make his life more comfortable. What he does not have is a million gold pieces. He may have some magic items, but the most powerful ones will be family heirlooms (and he's as likely to give away the family greatsword +5 as he is to give away his crown), and the lesser ones will have been passed out among his most trusted retainers. Are you gonna disarm the captain of your bodyguard to pay the mercenary wizard? It's simply alot easier for a king to raise an army than to raise the gold to pay lvl 20 mercenaries.
Also, while a wizard might accept payment in forms a king can pay, the king may not be willing to give it to him. Do you REALLY want a high level wizard living in a castle outside of the capital? Who knows when he decides to research the 'summon tarrasque' spell? Or when his lvl 21 enemy comes looking for him?

This is all being generous and assuming you can hire JUST the wizard. Imagine if he's part of a party, and will only fight as part of that group. It's bad enough paying the wizard, now imagine paying for his lvl 20 barb, rogue and paladin friends as well.

As Tippy said earlier, it's actually fairly easy to get Level 20 Wizards in 30 years, if you devote the resources to it.

EvilElitest

2007-02-19, 10:17 PM

Yeah, but Tippies method was proved wrong. It might work, but not in any relable manner. The amount of people it would kill would simple causethe program to be slowed period, and (like more of Tippy's plan) does not take into account the random effect.
As for Nukes, what Hellfire does is burn you no matter what your fire resistence. I think their is somthing called Soulfire that burns you souls but Hellfire is jsut the hottest fire in the world. A nuke would not have REAL hellfire, but i think it would have the same effect, i mean it does not just burn, it wipes its targets off the face of the earth
From,
EE

Beleriphon

2007-02-20, 03:08 AM

As for Nukes, what Hellfire does is burn you no matter what your fire resistence. I think their is somthing called Soulfire that burns you souls but Hellfire is jsut the hottest fire in the world. A nuke would not have REAL hellfire, but i think it would have the same effect, i mean it does not just burn, it wipes its targets off the face of the earth
From,
EE

I suppose I should point out that a thermonuclear weapon doesn't actually explode in a conventional way. What it does is create thermonuclear reaction, something akin to the centre of the Sun. This interacts with our atmosphere causing air to burn, and producing massive blast waves. Most of a nuclear weapon's damage is directly caused by pressure wave in the air. Still, being caught in the centre of something burns as hot as a star not so much fun.

Sam K

2007-02-20, 08:26 AM

You know, not all Wizards research random spells like "summon Tarrasque" to kill their employers. The point about the Wizard being involved in more important matters (and possibly dragging your kingdom of low-level characters into an epic-level affair) stands, though.

If a lvl 20 wizard needed the tarrasque to kill their employer, he should probably consider retiring anyway.
My point here wasn't that the wizard would TRY to wipe out your kingdom, it's just that magic carries some risks. Spell research gone wrong, messed up summons and such things. Granted, these things are rare, but so are nuklear plant meltdowns, and most people still wouldn't live next to a nuklear plant, given a choice.

You assume that Wizards tend to run around in parties. And that, if you could theoretically amass enough money to entice a Wizard, he'd turn it down for the sake of loyalty to a few friends. Heck, he's not even betraying his friends: He's just taking a side job.

If you find a high level spellcaster that is not already part of some existing organization (and thus busy with his duties there), odds are he's an adventurer of some sort. Most high level parties have established tactics which depends on everyone doing their share of the work, and may prove unwilling to break up this teamwork.

While that lvl 20 wizard may not need any support in blasting commoners, he cant know exactly what he's up against. If he was good enough to reach lvl 20, odds are he's NOT the type to go into unknown conditions without the support of people he knows he can trust.

You assume that all high-level characters are adventurers, though that's actually pretty likely (running around the multiverse fighting the strongest things you can take does tend to strengthen one). Still, they can't exactly be subordinate, since if a level-twenty guy is running around in an army, he will be the head honcho. It doesn't matter how bad at strategy and tactics he is: People will idolize him and worship him as a hero (or else cower before him in fear). Your nobles probably won't mind the breaches in etiquette caused by a level-twenty Wizard who can alter reality at a whim, or a level-twenty druid who can turn the very earth into your enemy's opponent even as he transforms himself into a fearsome avatar of nature, or a level-twenty fighter who can... uh... fight really well.

Like I said, any lvl 20 which is not already part of some organization is likely to be an adventurer. Having a lvl 20 adventurer calling the shots for your army can be bad. Disasterously bad. Adventurers fight in very different ways than armies does. They're use to fast moving skirmishes, not massive battles. How many high level adventurers even worry about food? Shelter? They have spells and magic items for that. On the other hand, supplies is a major (THE major, according to some) concern of an army.

On the other hand, your generals probably aren't very useful in directing high level PCs. The abilities of lvl 20 characters is beyond what most mere mortals can comprehend. Underestimate them and they'll be inefficient, overestimate them and it can spell disaster for your army ("What do you mean the enemys ancient red dragon ate our mercenaries? Now what do we do???"") This is why, if high level characters are availible for war, they're usually sent on special missions.

And the nobles WILL mind. They just wont be able to do anything about those pesky lvl 20s. They may decide to do something against YOU, though.

But "loyal to the country" would certainly preclude ousting the current king in lieu of a total stranger who's a lot tougher. That sort of thing only happens in an unstable society. Heck, look at the United States: Do you really think that if we hired French mercenaries who successfully eliminate all terrorism in the world that the American people would demand that the mercenaries be allowed to run in the next election?

Hehehe, french mercenaries!

Most pesants, however, wouldn't care who was king. Not enough to go rebell against a lvl 20 wizard (who has already proven his ability to masacre armies). They didn't vote for the last king, after all.

Besides, like someone mentioned, the wizard (or cleric or druid or whatnot) could just support some noble that feels he has the right to be king, in exchange for influence ("I made you king, little man. I can unmake you just as easily.")

In the end, high level adventurers DO have a place in war, but it's generally as special operations groups, not as front line fighters. It's what they do best, and it keeps them out of the way of the rest of the world.

Oh, and as for the plan to 'manufacture' high level wizards, here's what would happend:

1. Most wizards get killed when encountering monsters with anti magic abilities (they'd be adventuring in all wizard teams).
2. The survivors realize they dont need you. How are you gonna keep them loyal when they're always out adventuring to gain levels? Magic? Yeah, they're a bunch of lvl 20 wizards, you dont think they'll figure out a way to get around that? "I WISH I wasn't brainwashed anymore"?

PirateMonk

2007-02-20, 08:42 AM

But they're loyal to their country, and don't WANT to not be brainwashed.

Indon

2007-02-20, 08:48 AM

I feel the following quotes, found in the same post, illustrate why D&D vs. real life is silly and really impossible to standardize.

I'm pretty much aware of what an atomic bomb do. But in D&D, any explosion is only fire damage. That may sounds absurd, but so is electricity damage.
Edit : I guess that it could be modeled as Fireball with admixture energy - sound. The damage, output, however, would be a good question. I'm thinking about it.

This is not how explosions in real life work. You'd have to houserule nukes, and for that matter many different objects and effects, in order to properly express these things in D&D, and without properly modeling them, how could you draw valid conclusions about the D&D systems' interaction with 'real life' things like nuclear weapons?

Wrong : it can sever its own limbs and throw them hard in the opposite direction it wants to go. It will takes time on the earth-sun distance, but you can't imprison it for a long time, so ...
This is not how newtonian physics work in D&D. The same problem, viewed from the other direction. Without houseruling opposite reactions in, things like this can't happen in the system.

Jayabalard

2007-02-20, 09:43 AM

Of course, if we assume that these level twenty mages didn't suddenly Plane Shift over to a world that has never before seen magic and say "Y'know what'd be fun? Let's defend a territory the size of the US from an army the size of China!", it's probable to assume that anti-caster tactics have already been developed. If not, I'd really like to think we're smarter and more adaptable now.Of course, if the world has never seen magic, it's probably because magic doesn't function very well or at all in that world.

goodbye wizards, hello fighters with low BAB and not very many feats/proficiencies.

okpokalypse

2007-02-20, 10:15 AM

Have to disagree with this. I'm not familiar with this "hellfire" damage, but I presume that it has something to do with supernatural evil. Napalm is really hot, sure. But so is lava. Things that are immune to fire can literally swim through lava. And neither napalm nor a nuclear bomb ar powered by supernatural evil. So as sad as it is, big T would be unphased by the heat portion of an atomic blast.

Actually...isn't it plausible that the radiation would give the guy a breath weapon, and he'd be godzilla?

I don't have the Fiendish Codex II in front of me, but from what I recollect from memory, Hellfire was created by Mephistopheles as a way of being able to damage other devils - because it's _that_ hot. It's not supernatural or inherently evil as far as I can recall - it's just that hot.

There's specifically a construct called the "HellFire Engine" that spouts it in something like 20d6 bursts. Yeah - it's an anti-devil tank.

Dausuul

2007-02-20, 10:25 AM

But they're loyal to their country, and don't WANT to not be brainwashed.

As I mentioned earlier, Tippy's plan involves dumping the wizards in question in Ysgard for ten levels' worth of battles. At some point, some powerful Chaotic Good Ysgardian is going to notice that their memories have been rewritten and is going to take exception to that, seeing as how brainwashing people into slavery is about as Lawful Evil as it's possible to be.

And as soon as one wizard is un-brainwashed, he'll go un-brainwash all the rest, and you will have Hell To Pay(tm).

For that matter, if I were the opposing general, the very first thing I'd do is hire a 9th-level wizard to cast Contact Other Plane and blab to the Powers That Be in Ysgard about how you're abusing their glorious afterlife to prop up your corrupt empire.

Vik

2007-02-20, 10:45 AM

I feel the following quotes, found in the same post, illustrate why D&D vs. real life is silly and really impossible to standardize. It certainly is impossible. But it's fun to try nonetheless :D

This is not how explosions in real life work. You'd have to houserule nukes, and for that matter many different objects and effects, in order to properly express these things in D&D, and without properly modeling them, how could you draw valid conclusions about the D&D systems' interaction with 'real life' things like nuclear weapons? I don't draw any conclusion. I just think about what would happen if the Tarrasque was to come on Earth, along with DnD rules.

This is not how newtonian physics work in D&D. The same problem, viewed from the other direction. Without houseruling opposite reactions in, things like this can't happen in the system. Indeed, but then in DnD gravity is not defined appart from being the force that makes people falling on _the planet_. Meaning that nothing says that it applies on the sun - heck, by RAW the Tarraque will be falling on Earth in 1 round, with 20d6 damage and that's all !

Dausuul

2007-02-20, 10:47 AM

It certainly is impossible. But it's fun to try nonetheless :D

I don't draw any conclusion. I just think about what would happen if the Tarrasque was to come on Earth, along with DnD rules.

Indeed, but then in DnD gravity is not defined appart from being the force that makes people falling on _the planet_. Meaning that nothing says that it applies on the sun - heck, by RAW the Tarraque will be falling on Earth in 1 round, with 20d6 damage and that's all !

*rolls eyes* If that's the case, then the same applies to celestial objects.

Moon falls, everyone dies.

Mewtarthio

2007-02-20, 11:01 AM

*rolls eyes* If that's the case, then the same applies to celestial objects.

Moon falls, everyone dies.

No, the Moon is a flying goddess. Gravity doesn't affect her. Besides, we've got a kid in green clothes and a bunch of giants to keep us safe. So long as nobody steals that weird mask...

PirateMonk

2007-02-20, 11:06 AM

brainwashing people into slavery is about as Lawful Evil as it's possible to be.

...Or as utilitarian Good. Really, it depends on whether you're the Good Guys or the Bad Guys, but then we get into points of view and out of D&D objective morality.

Sam K

2007-02-20, 11:13 AM

But they're loyal to their country, and don't WANT to not be brainwashed.

How are you gonna brainwash them that efficiently? Modern (non magical) brainwashing isn't all that effective (despite what TV thrillers would have you belive). In order to remain efficient, the subject must be under regular supervision, and should not be subjected to anything that might upset them too much. Traveling the world (and later on, the planes), seeking adventure and fighting for your life, is gonna shake up just about anyone. You wont have a sure way of monitoring what they learn or how they develop. Just having them 'check in' between adventures for a new dose of brainwashing isn't gonna cut it.

Also, if you screw it up, you end up with a bunch of insane wizards with strong feelings about you and your kingdom. They may not be coherrent enough to wage war on you, but they can cause some serious damage as they lash out at you.

Magical means would work (and if used intelligently, bypass the risk of your subjects going insane) but then you have to worry about dispel magic, antimagic shells and magical disjunction ruining your plan. Plus you have to trust the mages that does the brainwashing to do it right- to not, for example, implant a 'backdoor' that lets THEM order your legion of mages around. Now, consider the fact that only evil wizards would be likely to brainwash a bunch of kids (even if you claim it's for a good reason). And remember even a lawful evil wizard is likely to 'rig' the brainwashing, if only to make sure you dont use your legion of wizards against him.
Ofcourse, if you had 20 lvl 20 wizards, they may find a way to magically brainwash someone in a way that cant be dispeled or altered in any way. And if they're completely loyal to you, they wouldn't build in any backdoors in the brainwashing. But you dont have a legion of completely loyal wizards yet.

In both cases, a severe personality alteration could be considered mental damage, and thus be subject to spells which heal such damage.

Finally, remember that if a few of these wizards break the brainwashing, they'll have a decent idea of what is up. Good ones will want to free their 'brothers' because they're good, evil ones may free them because they want revenge on you, and really evil ones will try to find a way to alter the loyalty of the remaining wizards so THEY can have a legion of completely loyal lvl 20 wizards.

PirateMonk

2007-02-20, 11:44 AM

But you dont have a legion of completely loyal wizards yet.

Well, maybe if you used some sort of time travel magic- no. Bad idea. That gets you paradoxes. Bad. Bad. Bad bad bad bad bad.

illathid

2007-02-20, 03:06 PM

Who says the wizards have to be hired to defend the nation. It's perfectly possible that they are members of a magical oligarchy, and would defend the nation out of their own self interest.

EvilElitest

2007-02-20, 03:11 PM

Jayabalard

2007-02-20, 03:58 PM

okpokalypse

2007-02-20, 04:39 PM

If I was going to get 20 level 20 wizard to guard my country, then i would not magiclly brain wash them. I'd to as Stalin would do. I would make my self their fatherly figure from a very young age and make them completly dedacated to me. However, like most of Tippy's plan, that is extreamlly risky as they might want to rebel anyways and fight me. And the 20 level 20 wizards idea, if they were up against 5 million soilders, here is a way you can screw them over. Have the ENTIRE freaking army divied into groups of 50 and raid the country side, killing, burning, eating and looting. Sure i will not conquer anything, but the wizards will not have enough telaports to keep all the men down. They might win, but their nation will suffer in an unbleavable manner. In that time i will raise more men from the home front and attack direcly with 1 million more men a few years later.
Yeah i know this plan is unrealistic, but so was tippy's

From,
EE

Unless they know you're coming in advance (they should have at least 6 months, as in those times it took a lot of time and manpower to mobilize an army) - in which case they booby-trap the hell out of the borders. Glyphs attuned to race / nationality / etc... You'd lose entire groups. Sure, you'd have 100,000 50-man fighting units spread throughout the countryside, but 20 Wizards with 6 months of Prep can drop 20+ glyphs/greater glyphs a day each easy - and still have a load of spells left over. you're be talking 400 glyphs a day for 6 months (approx 180 days) = 72,000 glyphs.

And as it's been said before, if those were necros, and the greater glyphs were Fell Animated AoEs, you're producing huge amount of low-grade undead to contend with as well.

As it's been said before, preparation favors the casters, and if I had 20 L20 Wizards with varying abilities throughout, you can bet they'd know when you were arriving, with approximate counts, and quite possibly your strategy already in hand. Fate favors the prepared, and nothing is more knowledgable than a L20 Diviner with months of snooping :).

It's a shame we could never realistically conclude this. I'd take the 20 Casters side Any day. Hell, I'd take a side with 3 L20 Casters (Favored Soul, Psion, Wizard) + Cohorts / Followers per Leadership rules, and I don't think I'd lose against a traditional middle-ages army with 10 Million Soldiers - provided it's majority conscript.

For example, if the Army was...
1 L20 WarLord
10 L15 Generals
100 L12 Colonels
1000 L10 Captains
100000 L8 Sergeants
250000 L6 Corporals / Specialists
And about 9,650,000 L4 - L1 Soldiers / Conscripts.

I think this would be a slaughter. In fact, the first thing I'd do is have the Psion Teleport them to where the Generals are in Council. Make sure Superior Invis in on. Lion's Roar (FS), Radiant Assault (Wiz), Anticipatory Strike (Psion), Hustle / Dim Door up, and Energy Blast (Fire) down on em from way above. Between the attacks, 80 Sonic (+ Stun) + 126 Fire + 90 Light. Then the Wiz, if somehow they were protected, casts Greater Celerity and Teleports everyone back. Chances are that drops half the Generals (And that 80 Sonic has a 240' Radius - so it likely gets a lot others as well), and now the army's got little leadership. 6 seconds of actions may have just bought you another 3 months of time before an invasion.

Of course, when you add in caster classes on the Army side, it really defeats the whole point... Because enough L9 - L13 Casters will overwhelm a L20 Caster eventually - if only because of the automatic failure on a 1.

Winterking

2007-02-20, 07:52 PM

You're assuming that not only do the Generals/military forces have no casters, they have no magical aid of any sort. In which case, yes, it's a cakewalk. But odds are, if you've got 20 L20s, then somebody, maybe not your foe but someone somewhere, will have L20 casters who would be only too happy to sell magic stuff to your foe for enough profit. Items that block divination, for example, or that make teleportation faster, or that allow those things but cause a backlash for anyone trying it.

And the small squads of men streaming across your border would not necessarily all be arriving in the dead of night, wearing black "Not a Ninja" t-shirts," crossing in the wilderness, and carrying weapons. If I was in a country threatened by your L20 casters, I'd be having lots of the guerilla fighters dressed up as merchants. Heck, maybe some of them would be merchants. Or refugees, or missionaries, or any of a dozen other professions. They'd be moving across your borders right alongside hundreds of legitimate travelers. I'd even send a bunch through other countries--the only way you could keep bands of fighters out of your territory is to seal your borders completely. That in turn would benefit me, because 1)other nations' merchants would be angry they could no longer trade with you, 2)the other nations themselves would start to get worried--if you're barring everyone, how do they know you're not planning war against them, too; 3) your own merchants, and all the shopkeepers, miners, farmers, and craftsmen who depend on them, would get angry at not being able to make money anymore.
Besides, there's several flaws in your plan of glyph-laying. First, you assume that you've got a large wedge of time. I'm likely to put my plan in motion the minute I start prepping for hostilities--it's not like it takes lots of organization to get ten guys together, give them weapons, and say "run for the border". Second, you assume that I don't have any rogues who can sense the glyph-traps, and either bypass them, or just trigger them. (Hey Bob, go forward twenty paces... *ker-magic!* Hooray!, dull old Bob is dead and we have a hole in the border. Tally ho!)
Thirdly, you might well be able to discern my plan through divination, etc. But if all I know was that I told the commanders to find their own paths, choose their own targets, and make their own trouble, you wouldn't get much benefit.

EvilElitest

2007-02-20, 09:08 PM

Unless they know you're coming in advance (they should have at least 6 months, as in those times it took a lot of time and manpower to mobilize an army) - in which case they booby-trap the hell out of the borders. Glyphs attuned to race / nationality / etc... You'd lose entire groups. Sure, you'd have 100,000 50-man fighting units spread throughout the countryside, but 20 Wizards with 6 months of Prep can drop 20+ glyphs/greater glyphs a day each easy - and still have a load of spells left over. you're be talking 400 glyphs a day for 6 months (approx 180 days) = 72,000 glyphs.

And as it's been said before, if those were necros, and the greater glyphs were Fell Animated AoEs, you're producing huge amount of low-grade undead to contend with as well.

As it's been said before, preparation favors the casters, and if I had 20 L20 Wizards with varying abilities throughout, you can bet they'd know when you were arriving, with approximate counts, and quite possibly your strategy already in hand. Fate favors the prepared, and nothing is more knowledgable than a L20 Diviner with months of snooping :).

It's a shame we could never realistically conclude this. I'd take the 20 Casters side Any day. Hell, I'd take a side with 3 L20 Casters (Favored Soul, Psion, Wizard) + Cohorts / Followers per Leadership rules, and I don't think I'd lose against a traditional middle-ages army with 10 Million Soldiers - provided it's majority conscript.

For example, if the Army was...
1 L20 WarLord
10 L15 Generals
100 L12 Colonels
1000 L10 Captains
100000 L8 Sergeants
250000 L6 Corporals / Specialists
And about 9,650,000 L4 - L1 Soldiers / Conscripts.

I think this would be a slaughter. In fact, the first thing I'd do is have the Psion Teleport them to where the Generals are in Council. Make sure Superior Invis in on. Lion's Roar (FS), Radiant Assault (Wiz), Anticipatory Strike (Psion), Hustle / Dim Door up, and Energy Blast (Fire) down on em from way above. Between the attacks, 80 Sonic (+ Stun) + 126 Fire + 90 Light. Then the Wiz, if somehow they were protected, casts Greater Celerity and Teleports everyone back. Chances are that drops half the Generals (And that 80 Sonic has a 240' Radius - so it likely gets a lot others as well), and now the army's got little leadership. 6 seconds of actions may have just bought you another 3 months of time before an invasion.

Of course, when you add in caster classes on the Army side, it really defeats the whole point... Because enough L9 - L13 Casters will overwhelm a L20 Caster eventually - if only because of the automatic failure on a 1.

Your defending a country the size of the US. I really doubt you could get all of those wards up in time. I only need 1 entrence for a little time. And hell, if worst comes to worst, i'll give my squards 1 level 1 wizard to detect them.
you have to much ground to cover
From,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-02-21, 02:58 PM

Anyone have any other points?
from,
EE

MandoFTR

2007-02-21, 06:07 PM

The best defensive strategy I've found is to NOT attach oneself to a specific location. Just wichever is strategically conveniant. For that to happen, however, your society would need to be nomadic or at least non-centralized. Even then, though, nomadic is preferable.

You could then pick and choose your battles at will, wearing down much larger forces via guerilla tactics. Some of my favorite scenariors are bottlenecks. Force the enemy to come around a corner into a small area to attack you.
You then can take on only a small portion of the melee warriors at a time, and allow archers and spell casters to go crazy with the mob. Evards Black Tentacles works pretty well, I hear. And if you have mages, you could potentially run away on the drop of a hat via teleportation.

A variant on that idea would be putting a castle in a position that can be only approached from two sides. Make sure its near a river or an ocean, and give it a dam.
When they attempt to flank you, burst the dam and flood the alternate path.
It would have to be a fairly low path, and you'd have to be willing to sacrifice all that good stoneworkmanship and potential hydration for troops.

TimeWizard

2007-02-21, 10:40 PM

Every now and then I daydream about how my 17th level sorcerer would do in the Lord of the Rings world against the forces of Mordor. I think his most potent strategy is to summon air elementals who then form whirlwinds and mop up the orcs. Also summoned bralanis can also help out with their lightning bolts and whirlwind blasts, while summoned avorals can magic missile every round.

He's got empowered wall of fires for the nazgul (double damage vs. undead) and he himself will remain invisible, blinking, projecting his image, etc. while blasting fireballs and spreading around glitterdust.

Against the big trolls and oliphants he can pull out rays of enfeeblement and enervations to weaken them and he can help damage them with scorching rays if his summons can't.
The Eye of Sauron has True Seeing.

Mewtarthio

2007-02-21, 11:00 PM

Plus Nazgul aren't really undead.

Fawsto

2007-02-21, 11:07 PM

The problem of getting a Fighter (or cleric, or paladin, or whatever you can think) to fight a HUGE mob is that there is a rule (or at least, there was a rule in 3.0) saying that you would have your AC deduced drasticaly if you get surrounded by a huge mob. What makes sense, since you wont be able to move properly (even worse than if you were being flanked) and it is far easier to hit you in the right places.

Otherwise than that, the theory is pretty accurate. A Single lvl 10 Wizard can take an entire division of an army in a few rounds without many problems (pehaps just with the archers...)

And it doesn't matter how many soldiers a lvl 10 Fighter gets in a row if he has a Fortification 3 Magical Armor... Not even crits would do much to him...

A frenzied barbarian should not be even faced in the battlefield by the lower troops, he is work for the archer division or to a single equivalent leveled captain.

A Paladin and his mount can eliminate most of the footsoldiers easily. There is even some new feats allowing him to trample an entire line of enemies.

The point is quite correct... When things get superhuman (fighters attacking 5 times in 6 seconds and wizards bending reality) normal armies are irrelevant. D&D can't support a good medieaval battlefield, it is more likely to the modern battlefield where we have powerful mass destruction weapons (casters) and Armored Tanks (fighting classes).

EvilElitest

2007-02-21, 11:17 PM

Sardia

2007-02-22, 02:17 AM

Who says the wizards have to be hired to defend the nation. It's perfectly possible that they are members of a magical oligarchy, and would defend the nation out of their own self interest.

This is where it might get ugly, provided there aren't a lot of LG, LN, etc types in those wizard towers. Wizards who boldly go to war stand a chance of being killed by their opposites in the invading army. Wizards who stay back and cover the home front while still charging normal rates become wealthy and live longer. <br>Sure, they might be in a slightly worse state should their country lose...but the invading army surely took a few wizardly losses they'd need to replace during the peacetime consolidation.

Dervag

2007-02-22, 03:25 AM

Wizards who hang back in their towers are safer but less effective. They're more vulnerable to plots and to enemies that take the time and effort to come up with a plan for defeating them.

I don't think that 20 L20 wizards could stop a large army that contained a reasonable and realistic number of casters; though they'd make one heck of a dent. However, 20 L20 wizards aren't a realistic PC party anyway, so this shouldn't come as a surprise (the Tarrasque could take out a more or less arbitrarily large normal army too).

Sardia

2007-02-22, 03:47 AM

[QUOTE=Dervag;2071561]Wizards who hang back in their towers are safer but less effective. They're more vulnerable to plots and to enemies that take the time and effort to come up with a plan for defeating them.

Less effective might mean not worth the effort to neutralize, then. The guy up front blowing up seige engines is probably priority one.

illathid

2007-02-22, 04:48 AM

This is where it might get ugly, provided there aren't a lot of LG, LN, etc types in those wizard towers. Wizards who boldly go to war stand a chance of being killed by their opposites in the invading army. Wizards who stay back and cover the home front while still charging normal rates become wealthy and live longer. <br>Sure, they might be in a slightly worse state should their country lose...but the invading army surely took a few wizardly losses they'd need to replace during the peacetime consolidation.

I think you kinda missed the point. These wizards aren't "being hired," they are the supreme suzerains of their nation. ANY invasion by a foreign power would result in a reduction of their power and wealth. In fact, it would be easier for chaotic/evil wizards because they would be much less concerned with insuring for the public good and/or maintaining order.

Who needs to sell spells when you can collect taxes for "protection"?

I don't think that 20 L20 wizards could stop a large army that contained a reasonable and realistic number of casters; though they'd make one heck of a dent.

I believe that the assumption (at least, Emperor Tippy's) was that the enemy army would be composed entirely of NPC classes. Can't really find many full caster in the DMG's NPC chapter...

Sardia

2007-02-22, 05:04 AM

Sam K

2007-02-22, 05:59 AM

I think you kinda missed the point. These wizards aren't "being hired," they are the supreme suzerains of their nation. ANY invasion by a foreign power would result in a reduction of their power and wealth. In fact, it would be easier for chaotic/evil wizards because they would be much less concerned with insuring for the public good and/or maintaining order.

Who needs to sell spells when you can collect taxes for "protection"?

Dying is a severe reduction in power and wealth. Also, if the wizards form the government of the nation, they cant all go out and nuke the enemy. During times of war, the government gets really busy governing.

And consider that even a nation ruled by wizards wouldn't have all that many high level ones. More than your average feudual nation, for sure, but if magical power=rank in society, the people on the top will be all the more careful with who they allow to obtain such power. There would likely be strictly controlled academies, and only the wizards who have the favor of the rulers would be allowed to access the material needed to advance to the highest levels (remember, these wizards would be academics, not adventurers, and thus gain most of their exp from study and research). A nation like this would have alot more mid level casters, though. Most of their officers would be war mages or wizards that specialize in destructive spells. They just wouldn't be the level 20 death machines we talk about.

I believe that the assumption (at least, Emperor Tippy's) was that the enemy army would be composed entirely of NPC classes. Can't really find many full caster in the DMG's NPC chapter

Tippys entire scenario was written to make his wizards as efficient as possible. An army in D&D would NOT consist exclusively of npc classes. Magic is a big factor, so magic(or anti magic) tactics would be part of every army.

Anyone notice that in OotS 417, there is exactly the same argument that have been made here, regarding PCs and armies. Did our debate inspire it, or is it just a coincidence? :)

EvilElitest

2007-02-22, 03:54 PM

Dying is a severe reduction in power and wealth. Also, if the wizards form the government of the nation, they cant all go out and nuke the enemy. During times of war, the government gets really busy governing.

And consider that even a nation ruled by wizards wouldn't have all that many high level ones. More than your average feudual nation, for sure, but if magical power=rank in society, the people on the top will be all the more careful with who they allow to obtain such power. There would likely be strictly controlled academies, and only the wizards who have the favor of the rulers would be allowed to access the material needed to advance to the highest levels (remember, these wizards would be academics, not adventurers, and thus gain most of their exp from study and research). A nation like this would have alot more mid level casters, though. Most of their officers would be war mages or wizards that specialize in destructive spells. They just wouldn't be the level 20 death machines we talk about.

Tippys entire scenario was written to make his wizards as efficient as possible. An army in D&D would NOT consist exclusively of npc classes. Magic is a big factor, so magic(or anti magic) tactics would be part of every army.

Anyone notice that in OotS 417, there is exactly the same argument that have been made here, regarding PCs and armies. Did our debate inspire it, or is it just a coincidence? :)

1. Tippy's scenario favored the wizard in an obcene manner.
2. Yes, this thread was made because of OOTS.
From,
EE

okpokalypse

2007-02-22, 04:37 PM

Your defending a country the size of the US. I really doubt you could get all of those wards up in time. I only need 1 entrence for a little time. And hell, if worst comes to worst, i'll give my squards 1 level 1 wizard to detect them.
you have to much ground to cover
From,
EE

You insist I'm defending the US. I insist that no sane intelligent casters would spread themselves out over a 3.8 Million Sq Mile area and expect to keep tabs on it's borders. It would take a standing army of 250,000 just in observance of the borders to prevent a reasonable incursion into their territory, let alone the strength to resist it.

No, I'm talking about a 50 Sq Mi Island with a population of like 125,000 and 3 L20 Casters protecting it. Caster's are smart - they don't try to hold land in an undefensible position. If we must use the US ideal, they hold Hawaii.

If for some reason these casters were stuck defending the US for whatever reasons, I wouldn't wait for incursion. I'd be divining threats, and taking em out before they could mass against me. Proactive - not reactive. For example: When the 10 highest ranking generals are meeting to get their plans laid out, I teleport in my 3 L20s, and nuke the hell out of em, and one teleports us all out that same round. In 6 seconds I can do a wide spread of about 400 Damage, of the type "Light" and/or "Sonic." Who survives that?

Now with no leadership, the army is in disarray for months - buying me time to take care of a few things...

And as for your L1 Wizards, where did they come from? Considering you've got 100,000 groups of 50 seeking to sneak in, how are your getting all these Mages? And who's to say they don't turn on you when I offer them training and/or knowledge to jump ship?

It's too easy to just keep saying, "well, I get mages for every group" or "I can set up an AMF around my generals." You're only doing this in response to the mage's actions - not pre-emptively. You made no mention of Mage's until Glyphs were brought up, and I thought we were working under the idea that PC's make standard armies irrelevant. If you're using Mage's (PC - Class) as the only means to make your incursion work, doesn't that kind of justify the argument?

Again, the details of the army has never been firmly established, and until it is, I don't see any point in continuing - cause people just keep pulling something new out that toes the line of high-level magic on the army side to counter high-level magic.

To put this in more modern terms, if nukes were all clean and only 1 country had the technology to create / use them - would they make all other armies irrelevant? The answer is yes - if the wielder of the power is amoral enough to slaughter everyone against them.

okpokalypse

2007-02-22, 04:58 PM

A good general could beat the PCs just bye having a good plan, like using some fodder to get rid of the barbarion's rage, and peckering him with arrows. You say a crit will not do much, but it will do somthing, and overtime. Time my guys got, not your guys.
From,
EE

I still greatly disagree with you. What do you do against a high-AC Dwarven Defender with increased DR? They can get their DR up to 13 / - when all is said and done. Adamantine Battle Plate +5. Add in the Combat Focus feats for Fast Healing 4 as well. Sprinkle in a Living Undead effect item to negate Skirmish, Sneak Attacks and Crits. He's pretty much invincible against any number of grunt-troops.

An average roll with a Greatsword wielded by an NPC with an 18 Str does 13 Damage. That does nothing. So not only would you need an army of pretty much all 18-str soldiers, you'd need them all to wield 2d6 2H Weapons and get lucky enough to manage over-average damage to just nick him. Assuming 1 in 20 Hits, and then only 1/2 actually damage him, that's 1 in 40 shots doing an average of about 2 Damage over time. Even if he's perpetually surrounded, and those 10' away have reach weapons, and they each get 2-attacks a round, that's 40 attacks against him a round.

He'd only be damaged once every round for an average of 2 Pts over time!!! His Fast Healing 4 outpaces any damage that can reasonably be done to him by Mundane Soldiers.

And Arrows would have less effect. They'd have to be Mighty Bows +6 (22 Str!) and Maxxing Damage to scratch him.

And that's just one example.

I don't care how good a general is, if all you've got are conscripted soldiers, there's just some things you can't beat.

EvilElitest

2007-02-22, 05:32 PM

You insist I'm defending the US. I insist that no sane intelligent casters would spread themselves out over a 3.8 Million Sq Mile area and expect to keep tabs on it's borders. It would take a standing army of 250,000 just in observance of the borders to prevent a reasonable incursion into their territory, let alone the strength to resist it.

No, I'm talking about a 50 Sq Mi Island with a population of like 125,000 and 3 L20 Casters protecting it. Caster's are smart - they don't try to hold land in an undefensible position. If we must use the US ideal, they hold Hawaii.

If for some reason these casters were stuck defending the US for whatever reasons, I wouldn't wait for incursion. I'd be divining threats, and taking em out before they could mass against me. Proactive - not reactive. For example: When the 10 highest ranking generals are meeting to get their plans laid out, I teleport in my 3 L20s, and nuke the hell out of em, and one teleports us all out that same round. In 6 seconds I can do a wide spread of about 400 Damage, of the type "Light" and/or "Sonic." Who survives that?

Now with no leadership, the army is in disarray for months - buying me time to take care of a few things...

And as for your L1 Wizards, where did they come from? Considering you've got 100,000 groups of 50 seeking to sneak in, how are your getting all these Mages? And who's to say they don't turn on you when I offer them training and/or knowledge to jump ship?

It's too easy to just keep saying, "well, I get mages for every group" or "I can set up an AMF around my generals." You're only doing this in response to the mage's actions - not pre-emptively. You made no mention of Mage's until Glyphs were brought up, and I thought we were working under the idea that PC's make standard armies irrelevant. If you're using Mage's (PC - Class) as the only means to make your incursion work, doesn't that kind of justify the argument?

Again, the details of the army has never been firmly established, and until it is, I don't see any point in continuing - cause people just keep pulling something new out that toes the line of high-level magic on the army side to counter high-level magic.

To put this in more modern terms, if nukes were all clean and only 1 country had the technology to create / use them - would they make all other armies irrelevant? The answer is yes - if the wielder of the power is amoral enough to slaughter everyone against them.

This is Tippy's argument, not mine, read the rest of the thread. He states he is defending the US. As for my level 1 wizards, they are not going into the country with my men. They just stay back and find your runes. i presume that in a country where i can have 5 million troops, i can get a few level 1 wizard, who have identify. As for defeating PCs, a level 1 commoner could beat a party of 20's should the situation favor him. The situation would have to be really unfair of course, such as the commoner in question being up against a party of PCs who are trapped on a ledge over lava and the commoner is covered with bombs and is willing to blow himself up to erupt the volcano, but possible none the less. The point is that with the right situation and tatics, npc class troop can beat much tougher PCs. Read teh current OOTS.
As for you example of the nukes, no the nukes would not be able to defeat all other armies. You would do tons of damage, and kill mass amount of people. But armies would not be irvelavent, how could you hold land? And if i have all hte people in the world against your nuke filled country (say North Korea?) where will you nuke? You can't nuke the entire world without running out of nukes, and by then the soilders of the world will overrun you. Their are to many men. Nukes have limatation and you can nuke the entire world and hope to live. If you willing to destroy the world and everyone on it, then yes, yes you win. The the army is still relevant.
From,
EE

illathid

2007-02-22, 08:54 PM

Chaotic and evil wizards might have one problem-- working together for the benefit of the group is distinctly a lawful concept. Willingness to put yourself at risk for others is a good concept.
Chaotic/evil wizards would likely be jockeying among themselves to see which unlucky SOB among their number took point, with the ones behind him perhaps thinking that he'd at least soften up the opposition. And every dead wizard on the defending side is one fewer person to divide up the country's wealth with when the war's over.

Chaotic and evil do not mean stupid. Since they are all wizards too, it would mean that they are actually highly intelligent. I would say that mental abilities would take precedence over alignment, and I would say more but there is no need.

Dying is a severe reduction in power and wealth. Also, if the wizards form the government of the nation, they cant all go out and nuke the enemy. During times of war, the government gets really busy governing.

I'm mean it wasn't like King Richard spent most of his reign fighting in wars or anything. Come on, I'm sure it's the case that the leaders of nations personally oversee every aspect of the government they are a part of. Also we're dealing with wizards, they aren't good at planning or creating contingencies at all. I doubt they would have a plan set up for dealing with a large scale invasion. /sarcasm

Spells make impossibilities a reality. The original question of the thread was "Do PC classes make armies irrelevant?" and they do, because wizard is a PC class. If I were a member of a ruling caste of wizards, I would make sure that Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) was cast 1/day to determine if the nation was going to be attacked within the coming year. There wouldn't even be need to contact a greater deity because the with such a large sample size any false or random responses would be easily identified. This means that the wizards would know within a very small margin of error exactly when the invasion would occur.

A year would be enough time to determine exactly where, with what, and how an invasion would occur. And with the crafting of contingent spells and spells like Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) (gotta love summoning in young adult Force Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon)), Control Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm), Permanent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm), etc. it is a safe bet to say that you would be fighting on the wizards terms.

Also, I don't think dying is going to be that big of a problem for these wizards (see Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm)).

Thrawn183

2007-02-22, 08:58 PM

Apocalypse from the Sky... who needs nukes?

requirements: 1 arcane caster (Straight Wizard or Sorceror would suffice), 1 cleric, to kill everything in a 400 mile in diameter circle (assuming minimum caster level). Repeat as necessary.

note (no save, so that's EVERYONE)

Goodbye "Country size of China"

EvilElitest

2007-02-22, 09:23 PM

Chaotic and evil do not mean stupid. Since they are all wizards too, it would mean that they are actually highly intelligent. I would say that mental abilities would take precedence over alignment, and I would say more but there is no need.

I'm mean it wasn't like King Richard spent most of his reign fighting in wars or anything. Come on, I'm sure it's the case that the leaders of nations personally oversee every aspect of the government they are a part of. Also we're dealing with wizards, they aren't good at planning or creating contingencies at all. I doubt they would have a plan set up for dealing with a large scale invasion. /sarcasm

Spells make impossibilities a reality. The original question of the thread was "Do PC classes make armies irrelevant?" and they do, because wizard is a PC class. If I were a member of a ruling caste of wizards, I would make sure that Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) was cast 1/day to determine if the nation was going to be attacked within the coming year. There wouldn't even be need to contact a greater deity because the with such a large sample size any false or random responses would be easily identified. This means that the wizards would know within a very small margin of error exactly when the invasion would occur.

A year would be enough time to determine exactly where, with what, and how an invasion would occur. And with the crafting of contingent spells and spells like Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) (gotta love summoning in young adult Force Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon)), Control Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm), Permanent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm), etc. it is a safe bet to say that you would be fighting on the wizards terms.

Also, I don't think dying is going to be that big of a problem for these wizards (see Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm)).

Just becuase Wizard is a PC class does not make armies irvelvent. They still affect the world and can do things that PC's can't do along
From,
EE

Sardia

2007-02-22, 09:35 PM

Chaotic and evil do not mean stupid. Since they are all wizards too, it would mean that they are actually highly intelligent. I would say that mental abilities would take precedence over alignment, and I would say more but there is no need.

True, but chaos and evil do affect the forms which the wizards' logic follows. The armies of the Abyss and of the Nine Hells fight with vastly different strategies, for example, though the leaders of both are highly intelligent.
Fundamentally, lawful evil wizards would consider the state to be the best means of furthering their own ends...but if the brunt of the enemy's advance was going through their chief rival's territory first, would they be tempted to wait just a bit before providing reinforcements in the hopes of permanently weakening that rivals's strength after the war?

Winterking

2007-02-22, 09:51 PM

If I were a member of a ruling caste of wizards, I would make sure that Contact Other Plane was cast 1/day to determine if the nation was going to be attacked within the coming year. There wouldn't even be need to contact a greater deity because the with such a large sample size any false or random responses would be easily identified.

That's all well and good, except that the SRD description of that spell says:
he powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions....On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

Rare occasions, perhaps of the sort "What? It's Illathid? AGAIN????". If your wizards are harassing extra-planar powers day in and day out for years at a time, those powers (even if you rotate it a bit) are going to get very irritated. They'll start lying, interfering with your scrying, etc. And if a deity decides to harass you back, they can cause a lot of trouble, whether or not your wizards are L20s.

And even that assumes that you can get useful, accurate responses--maybe the extra-planar powers you ask for two weeks on end only reply "I don't know". Or maybe you only get a month's warning because it's a small invasion and only took a month of planning. Or maybe the extra-planar powers don't consider chronic raiding to be "invasion", if your enemies intend to leave after looting your towns.

alchemy.freak

2007-02-23, 12:02 AM

I am going to try a simple answer for this question.

Do PC classes make armies irrelavent?

Only if you are doing it wrong.

illathid

2007-02-23, 01:42 AM

Rare occasions, perhaps of the sort "What? It's Illathid? AGAIN????". If your wizards are harassing extra-planar powers day in and day out for years at a time, those powers (even if you rotate it a bit) are going to get very irritated. They'll start lying, interfering with your scrying, etc. And if a deity decides to harass you back, they can cause a lot of trouble, whether or not your wizards are L20s.

Well if your using the standard great wheel cosmology, that doesn't really work. Considering that there are a huge number of crystal spheres on the material plane, each with there own deities, there are plenty of extra-planar powers to contact.

If you use the standard Greyhawk campaign, there are some 26 lesser and demi deities. In Faerun there are 30, and thats not including any of the racial deities. The Olympian pantheon has 6, the Pharaonic has 7, and the Norse has 5. So thats what, about 75 lesser and demi deities you could contact. I don't think your going to run out, even if those were the only gods you could contact, and I didn't count all of them. I mean there is an entire street in Dis where LE gods from different worlds live.

Also since there are 20 wizards that means that each wizard would only cast it once every 20 days. That means it would be a little over four years before a wizard contacted the same deity again if the limited themselves to the 75 gods above.

Also the part you referenced is only fluff. It was designed to make sure that DM's can just flat out refuse to give a response to some questions (like info he needs to keep secret about the BBEG/evil artifact/tooth fairy/ham sandwich/etc.).

Or maybe you only get a month's warning because it's a small invasion and only took a month of planning.

That argument cuts both ways, as there would need to be less planing on the wizards part for a smaller invasion.

Or maybe the extra-planar powers don't consider chronic raiding to be "invasion", if your enemies intend to leave after looting your towns.

And that is why the questions would all be written up a ahead of time, so that any ambiguity or lack of clarity could be removed.

Sergeantbrother

2007-02-23, 05:34 AM

I think one huge disadvantage of masses of low level characters against high level characters is moral.

Sure, maybe 1000's of low level characters can overcome a 20th level wizard or at least endure his assault well enough to sack the town he is guarding. If every single one of those low level peons is completely and totally fearless. But unless we're talking about a horde of the undead, they wont be fearless.

When 1000 soldiers get decimated with one cloud kill, when you're soldier #1001 chances are you're not going to just keep marching forward as if nothing happened. Maybe a few fanatical soliders might charge forward or stay in formation, but after a few such shows of magical might, 90% of your low level army is going to desert.

okpokalypse

2007-02-23, 10:10 AM

As for defeating PCs, a level 1 commoner could beat a party of 20's should the situation favor him. The situation would have to be really unfair of course, such as the commoner in question being up against a party of PCs who are trapped on a ledge over lava and the commoner is covered with bombs and is willing to blow himself up to erupt the volcano, but possible none the less. The point is that with the right situation and tatics, npc class troop can beat much tougher PCs. Read teh current OOTS.

And again, I say that's not true. Unless of course you're saying that a mage is at 1 HP, out of spells, and dazed. THEN a L1 commoner has a chance ;).

But seriously, even in your above examples - all the party would need is one caster with a Celerity Spell & a Travel Spell. Boom, Celerity, Teleport - Safe. Hell, Psions have powers that allow them to redo the previous round at a cost of some XP.

As for you example of the nukes, no the nukes would not be able to defeat all other armies. You would do tons of damage, and kill mass amount of people. But armies would not be irvelavent, how could you hold land? And if i have all hte people in the world against your nuke filled country (say North Korea?) where will you nuke? You can't nuke the entire world without running out of nukes, and by then the soilders of the world will overrun you. Their are to many men. Nukes have limatation and you can nuke the entire world and hope to live. If you willing to destroy the world and everyone on it, then yes, yes you win.
From,
EE

It's not about defeating all the armies, it's about significantly demoralizing them to the point that they won't fight anymore. Do you think all the Serfs could have risen up for some 1,000 years and over-run the aristocracy before the industrial age began? Sure they could have! But they didn't because the cost was just too high, and they were uneducated and demoralized.

This is the same thing. If you knew that in attacking a non-agressive neighbor all your country's great cities would be destroyed, 90%+ of your population would be killed and the life of your children would be that of an uneducated lout because all semblance of education and social structure has been destroyed - would you REALLY commit to that?

The answer is always no. Sure, you could win - but at what cost to yourself and your future generations? It's not worth it.

That's the whole thing. The only time the army is worthwhile (in the d20 environment) is when you're using it offensively. Which presumes YOU'RE the invading army. If the high level casters are invading and dictate the battle-fields, your army IS irrelevant. I think we've gone though enough examples at this point to illustrate this.

And if you're invading, you have to be prepared to know that it's a partial win or total loss battle. Few, if any countries, are willing to wage such battles. You're better off spending all that money to raise an army on 10 of the world's most skilled assassins and pray they don't get caught.

Sam K

2007-02-23, 10:26 AM

Chaotic and evil do not mean stupid. Since they are all wizards too, it would mean that they are actually highly intelligent. I would say that mental abilities would take precedence over alignment, and I would say more but there is no need.

Yes, because having intelligence and all the facts always leads to the right decition, right? Did some wizard cast 'banish human stupidity' on your kingdom? Human beings are ruled by emotion. We act on pride, greed, fear, lust, vengence or the instinct of survival. Now if we consider evil people that always have the option of bailing out if things go to bad (as high level wizards would likely be able to do), betrayal would be the norm.

And intelligence is book learning, memorization and logical thinking. It has nothing to do with rising over your instincts. Wisdom might.

Dervag

2007-02-23, 10:43 AM

I don't think that any kingdom would deliberately attack a neighboring kingdom that had overwhelming magical superiority, as in 'They have 20 L20 wizards and I have nothing but lots and lots of low-level warriors.' That would be the equivalent of a modern nation that had nothing but a huge number of infantry attacking a fully modernized enemy that had massive amounts of artillery, air power, and probably its own nuclear arsenal.

However, unless there's some compelling reason why nation A should have overwhelmingly more magic at its disposal, then nation B will probably have a roughly comparable power level of its own. Which means that the high-level spellcasters of both sides are likely to duel each other out of the picture in the early phases of any major war. The odds of there ever being 20 L20 spellcasters who are totally free to chew up your army are slim, because you'll be using your own L20 spellcasters to attack them in their own bases.

Wizards are like bombers. Bombers don't make infantry obsolete, even though one bomber can easily kill hundreds or thousands of troops caught in close order in the open. All the bombers do is force infantry to operate quietly and without bunching up until such time as their own air defense system has taken out the bombers.

Yahzi

2007-02-23, 01:44 PM

And even that assumes that you can get useful, accurate responses.
Well, the guys casting these spells are super-geniuses, with INTs in the 17+ range. I figure they're pretty good at those kind of details.

And that's just for "Contact Other Plane." "Commune" doesn't have that problem. What diety would want to lie to his 9th level cleric about that stuff?

D&D has a huge problem with insta-gankery. Winning initiative seems to be crucial at high levels. Imagine getting to attack when your opponent is unprepared - it's an auto-win. And since no one can be prepared all the time (defensive buffs take time to cast), and since attacks can be instant (teleport in and start shooting), what you wind up with is a world were the attackers always, always win.

Which is what adventurers are - bandits, always on the attack, with nothing to defend. Now maybe this makes for some fun adventuring, but it wrecks the entire concept of society. Why is anyone anything but an adventurer? (Heck, why isn't every adventuring party ganked in the middle of the night by a younger, hungrier adventuring party?)

That is my chief complaint with D&D. As it is presented, it makes the medieval world it is set in completely impossible (which is the point of this thread: medieval worlds had armies. Every D&D campaign setting has armies. It's an integral part of the setting, yet it makes no sense.)

So what we need to do is find ways to preserve the medieval setting while allowing for the rules of D&D. Because none of us want to play in the real D&D world, where the height of power is a castle with four guys in it. (Which is the world, btw, that Jack Vance described in "The Dying Earth", which is where D&D got its magic system and its levels.) We want Kings and armies and ancient nations with proud lineages and all that stuff, not a madhouse of constant gankery. We want to play WoW, not UO.

So... the Gods provide enough prophecy to counter the sneak-attacks. Wizards and such are smart enough to get the same protection, via their own means. Either you run low-level campaigns (in which case your 1st level soldiers can be a threat), or your high-level campaigns have 5th level Knights and 3rd level crossbowmen, with only the peasant rabble being 0th level (and really, they weren't much use even to medieval armies). Magic is either rare enough to not decide whole wars (even if it can win a battle), or common enough that there are counters to it (every squad captain has a one-use charm that counters AOE spells; every company has a Sorc specialized in Dispel). Finally, the grunt soldiers do the lifting, sentry duty, loot-carrying, peasant-beating stuff... and in combat, mostly serve as a screen to locate the enemy commanders before they locate yours. Then it's high-level vs high-level - the way it should be!

The question isn't whether high-level characters make armies irrelevant; because they obviously do if your armies are historical. The question is how do we construct a society that is believable, within the rules, and still close enough to the flavor we want?

Yahzi

2007-02-23, 01:53 PM

Wizards are like bombers.
Yes, but we're working under an additional constraint. We don't just want armies to be useful; we want them to be useful in pretty much the same way they were useful in real history, despite magic.

Yes, we are asking a lot.

:smallbiggrin:

The "heros as armor/air power" is a pretty good analogy, since we understand it, and also because it fits the medieval battlefield of song and story. If you assume the enemy are pretty equally matched in armor/air, then suddenly those infantry guys become useful again.

Sure, 10 wizards can obliterate 1000 pike squares. But if it's 10 wizards vs 10 wizards and 1000 pike squares, who has the advantage now?

The idea that one side does not have adventurers/heros/etc. is as pointless as asking, what if the USA invaded medieval France?

LotharBot

2007-02-23, 01:58 PM

The question isn't whether high-level characters make armies irrelevant; because they obviously do if your armies are historical.

Why would Faerun or Greyhawk have historical European armies?

Armies aren't irrelevant in D&D. They're just composed differently from the armies we're used to, and they use different tactics.

EvilElitest

2007-02-23, 02:24 PM

And again, I say that's not true. Unless of course you're saying that a mage is at 1 HP, out of spells, and dazed. THEN a L1 commoner has a chance ;).

But seriously, even in your above examples - all the party would need is one caster with a Celerity Spell & a Travel Spell. Boom, Celerity, Teleport - Safe. Hell, Psions have powers that allow them to redo the previous round at a cost of some XP.

It's not about defeating all the armies, it's about significantly demoralizing them to the point that they won't fight anymore. Do you think all the Serfs could have risen up for some 1,000 years and over-run the aristocracy before the industrial age began? Sure they could have! But they didn't because the cost was just too high, and they were uneducated and demoralized.

This is the same thing. If you knew that in attacking a non-agressive neighbor all your country's great cities would be destroyed, 90%+ of your population would be killed and the life of your children would be that of an uneducated lout because all semblance of education and social structure has been destroyed - would you REALLY commit to that?

The answer is always no. Sure, you could win - but at what cost to yourself and your future generations? It's not worth it.

That's the whole thing. The only time the army is worthwhile (in the d20 environment) is when you're using it offensively. Which presumes YOU'RE the invading army. If the high level casters are invading and dictate the battle-fields, your army IS irrelevant. I think we've gone though enough examples at this point to illustrate this.

And if you're invading, you have to be prepared to know that it's a partial win or total loss battle. Few, if any countries, are willing to wage such battles. You're better off spending all that money to raise an army on 10 of the world's most skilled assassins and pray they don't get caught.

Ok you just lost the argument their. You say that the nukes make a difference, but the army could win anyways. I have been saying that for awhile, read my ealier posts. That does not make the army irrelevant. Irrelevant means not important, no effect, does nothing. It is true few countries would be willing to wage such a huge battle and lose all their men but destroy you, however it is also unrealistic that you have all the nukes. Depending on what country you are, depends how how bad a loss it is. If you are North Korea and you all your nukes (lets say about 500 nukes altogether) and am the rest of the world with no nukes, but other modern equipment. If we go to war, you may nuke a ton of places, but in a few days my MASSIVE AIR FORCE i could overwhelm you, along with my massive naval force and a huge army. If you where the US and had all hte nukes, i would have more trouble, but that is saying does nautral terrian make armies irrelevant, not do PC classes make armies irrelevant.
And by the by, Nukes are surpier weapontry, not PC classes. PC classes don't make armies irrelvent, becuase most anything a PC can do, an army does better.
From
EE

Yahzi

2007-02-24, 01:57 AM

Why would Faerun or Greyhawk have historical European armies?
Why do they live in castles, and have knights and stuff?

'Cause thats the flavor people like.

If you want to play a non-generic fantasy world, you play in Glorantha with its talking ducks. :smallbiggrin: The rest of us are stuck in our King Arthur flavored ice cream.

Armies aren't irrelevant in D&D. They're just composed differently from the armies we're used to, and they use different tactics.
I think the question this thread is trying to ask is, what are those compositions and tactics?

As I understand it, Heros of Battle is about how to make battles fun for players, not really about how to wage effective warfare in a magical world. The official D&D stuff seems loathe to depart from the generic medieval flavor, even when the magic kinda really pushes it (but then, I've never read any of the Faerun stuff, so maybe I'm just wrong?)

Pastafarian

2007-02-24, 04:13 PM

Winterking

2007-02-24, 04:33 PM

I agree with Pastafarian, that having PCs will make armies better than the equivalent medieval reality. This is especially true because the soldiers spend a lot of their time fighting. Which would net them experience points. Which would have them rise in level.

I've always thought that the standard fantasy army, as described in the RAW, was unrealistic and disappointingly stereotypical. I've posted earlier in the thread, as have others, disproving the stereotype that medieval warfare was masses of untrained peasants smashing into eachother. Most of the middle ages' fighting forces were trained, or skilled, or otherwise experienced in what they did. Mercenaries and footsoldiers were not the equivalent level 1 Warriors, just barely adept enough to keep from stabbing their own feet with their spears. Nor were they the only part of a campaigning army; the best would have a variety of special units for particular purposes; PCs would just be another type.
In the campaign I'm running, I try to treat the world's armies somewhat realistically. Any 'professional' or mostly-full-time soldiers are fighters; there are wizards and sorcerors as backup, artillery, and counter-magic forces; and when a special mission needs doing, there are teams of specialists that are assigned (or hired, in the PCs case) to do it. An army like this, with power proportional to the forces of other kingdoms, is definitely still relevant.

Matthew

2007-02-24, 05:04 PM

That is one way to interpret what is going on, but it isn't the only way. Do NPCs gain experience the same way that PCs do? The usual answer is no. Most NPCs are simply given Class Levels accroding to the needs of the current plot. You could break down the population of a given kingdom (or whatever) and try to assign percentages (I think the DMG does something like this), but really it is very hard to approximate this sort of thing taking into account all possible factors. Even if we confine ourselves to the default D&D Campaign World of Greyhawk, working out the likely Class Levels and relative power of Army X is near impossible.

okpokalypse

2007-02-24, 08:35 PM

Ok you just lost the argument their. You say that the nukes make a difference, but the army could win anyways. I have been saying that for awhile, read my ealier posts.

I was using the example of Serfs v. Medieval lords. Reread my post.

And I've never made mention of nukes - just the demoralizing effect of laying waste to cities. This is accomplished through magic. No modern terms needed...

As for the rest of your post, it's not even worth replying to at this point. It's just a rehash of everything else you've said that I think is either completely irrelevant because you can't use 20th+ century examples of warfare in comparison to a medieval fantasy environment. You just can't.

EvilElitest

2007-02-24, 10:13 PM

As I have said before, an army of soldiers with 5-10 levels in PC classes is still an army. PCs will not make armies irrelevant; they will just force armies to be trained better and use more modern tactics.

On a side note, in the nuclear analogy, okay, you send your bombers to nuke my cities/armies. I send the overwhelming air superiority that the rest of the world has to shoot your bombers down before they can reach their targets.

Also, the scenario in that analogy is unrealistic (yes, I know this is D&D, but bear with me). PCs/mages will not be limited to one nation. For a better analogy, look at the world today. Most major powers have nukes. As a result, nobody uses them. Are armies irrelevant? Hardly. Magic users would be capable of decimating armies and killing civilians by the tens of thousands. However, who would do that, knowing the enemy would retaliate in kind?

That you, that sums up everything i said, nicely said.

As for okpokalypse, you brought up the nuke idea, which did not relate to the argument in question. I simply sighed and pointed out the flaws in your point under you own terms. Don't back out because you point is losing, ether admit your wrong, reach a compromise, or argue the same point, don't flipflop your way out with backwater signs of arrogance. You used both Tippy's argument, which has already been countered, and some hash about having all the nukes in the country. Don't weasel you way out now.
From,
EE

Winterking

2007-02-25, 04:44 AM

Yeah, okpokalypse; we all agree that a horde of peasant-types fighting a small group of extremely powerful individuals (whether powerful through magic or technology) would quickly become a large pile of Shredded Serf.

In somewhat more plausible scenarios, though, armies can do things that PCs can't, just as infantry can do things that nukes and tanks can't, and vice versa.

PirateMonk

2007-02-25, 11:57 AM

As I have said before, an army of soldiers with 5-10 levels in PC classes is still an army. PCs will not make armies irrelevant; they will just force armies to be trained better and use more modern tactics.

On a side note, in the nuclear analogy, okay, you send your bombers to nuke my cities/armies. I send the overwhelming air superiority that the rest of the world has to shoot your bombers down before they can reach their targets.

Also, the scenario in that analogy is unrealistic (yes, I know this is D&D, but bear with me). PCs/mages will not be limited to one nation. For a better analogy, look at the world today. Most major powers have nukes. As a result, nobody uses them. Are armies irrelevant? Hardly. Magic users would be capable of decimating armies and killing civilians by the tens of thousands. However, who would do that, knowing the enemy would retaliate in kind?

Or think of it this way: As above, no one in their right mind would invade a country with multiple Level 20 casters, even if they have nothing else. Even if they can't destroy your armies, there's still a risk of them "going pirate" and wreaking havoc on your country. Sure, you'll eventually bring them down, especially if you have your own casters, but by then a good portion of your country will be nothing but smoldering ruins. No one wins, except maybe that neighboring country ready to swallow your entire empire. But if your casters go pirate...

No, I have no idea what I'm arguing anymore. :smalltongue:

the_tick_rules

2007-02-25, 12:09 PM

well keep in mind mutliple aid anothers combined with lots of soliders can result it lots of hits. My dm used that against is in a clash between armies, drove us freakin crazy cause we all AC'd out so we could just smash through.

okpokalypse

2007-02-25, 03:06 PM

That you, that sums up everything i said, nicely said.

As for okpokalypse, you brought up the nuke idea, which did not relate to the argument in question. I simply sighed and pointed out the flaws in your point under you own terms. Don't back out because you point is losing, ether admit your wrong, reach a compromise, or argue the same point, don't flipflop your way out with backwater signs of arrogance. You used both Tippy's argument, which has already been countered, and some hash about having all the nukes in the country. Don't weasel you way out now.
From,
EE

You're incorrect sir, re-read my posts if care enough to really see what I'm arguing. From the very beginning I've stated that modern terminology isn't sensical in this argument. The first time I recall it being used (in terms of nukes) was when LZ referenced Cleric's using Lion's Roar as being a nuke, and trying to discount it's impact in a "balance of terror" equation.

In fact, you brought it up in this discussion between us. Look at post #399 above. You said I made mention of nukes, yet the entirety of what you quoted from me NEVER said one thing about them. You're reaching. And you're overly quick to keep saying, "Ok you just lost your argument there" when you're not even properly referencing your quotes.

The few times I've made mention to nukes it's been in two contexts. One, of the terminology of mage's "nuking" the enemy - as in laying waste. And Two, to draw modern comparisons where people insist on using such. One recent example was to draw the comparison of only one side having high-level casters, and the anti-morale effect they'd have on an army being the equivalent of a modern nation being the only one with nuclear capabilities.

You're trying to put words and sentiments upon me which are not mine, but belong to other's in this thread. Perhaps this is because you're debating on multiple fronts, and not incompetent. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I also find it ironic that you'd say, "Don't back out because you point is losing, ether admit your wrong, reach a compromise, or argue the same point, don't flipflop your way out with backwater signs of arrogance."

Pot, Meet Kettle.

I've already done such regarding the point of the Spell Genesis used earlier in the thread with regards to temporal manipulation of a demi-plane. I've also done so when it was pointed out that a Dragon's Breath is a (Su) ability and subject to an AMF. I've never had a problem admitting I'm incorrect - unlike some it seems. However, you've still never adknowledged that there are a variety of outer planes with faster times. How does that affect your argument if, say, one has a safe-house on a temporally accellerated plane?

As to my point, you've still successfully to refute it without pulling in modern mechanics, or meta-gaming the environment to be at least greatly favorable to your standpoint, and at most, wholly unrealistic (As in 3 People - no matter how high level - defending an area of 3.8 Million Sq Miles).

Simply put, I challenge you to arrange a scenario with concrete aspects and we'll hash it out then. Without such, you've just been backpeddling by imposing your own subjective scenarios on the high-level casters. My requirements for the L20 Caster side would be as such:

Casters - Three L20s - Wizard, Favored Soul, Psion (Shaper)
Territory - < 500 Sq Mile Island Nation.
Population - Between 50,000 and 250,000.
Trade - 1 Major Trade Port.
Martial Forces - 5% of Population - Trained.
Government - "Parliament" structure, Seats appointed by the L20s.
Education - Arcane / Psychic academys. Chruch of Relevant Deities / Pantheon. Moderate Martial Training. (None Produce PC-Equivs > L9 for purposes of this warfare)

(Other than appointing the government seats, the L20 Casters have little to no role in the daily going's on of the government)

Flush out your side. Be aware that these Casters are looking out for threats as needed. I highly doubt any plans you have aren't known to them. Also keep in mind that upon gaining any information of casters being "collected" for any campaign against them, these L20s would likely entice them away, or end them quickly.

If you want, I'll even go as far as to provide the spell's known for the Non-Prep Casters so you know I'm not just pulling whatever spell out of my arse when needed.

Pastafarian

2007-02-25, 06:41 PM

EvilElitest

2007-02-25, 08:52 PM

You're incorrect sir, re-read my posts if care enough to really see what I'm arguing. From the very beginning I've stated that modern terminology isn't sensical in this argument. The first time I recall it being used (in terms of nukes) was when LZ referenced Cleric's using Lion's Roar as being a nuke, and trying to discount it's impact in a "balance of terror" equation.

In fact, you brought it up in this discussion between us. Look at post #399 above. You said I made mention of nukes, yet the entirety of what you quoted from me NEVER said one thing about them. You're reaching. And you're overly quick to keep saying, "Ok you just lost your argument there" when you're not even properly referencing your quotes.

The few times I've made mention to nukes it's been in two contexts. One, of the terminology of mage's "nuking" the enemy - as in laying waste. And Two, to draw modern comparisons where people insist on using such. One recent example was to draw the comparison of only one side having high-level casters, and the anti-morale effect they'd have on an army being the equivalent of a modern nation being the only one with nuclear capabilities.

You're trying to put words and sentiments upon me which are not mine, but belong to other's in this thread. Perhaps this is because you're debating on multiple fronts, and not incompetent. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I also find it ironic that you'd say, "Don't back out because you point is losing, ether admit your wrong, reach a compromise, or argue the same point, don't flipflop your way out with backwater signs of arrogance."

Pot, Meet Kettle.

I've already done such regarding the point of the Spell Genesis used earlier in the thread with regards to temporal manipulation of a demi-plane. I've also done so when it was pointed out that a Dragon's Breath is a (Su) ability and subject to an AMF. I've never had a problem admitting I'm incorrect - unlike some it seems. However, you've still never adknowledged that there are a variety of outer planes with faster times. How does that affect your argument if, say, one has a safe-house on a temporally accellerated plane?

As to my point, you've still successfully to refute it without pulling in modern mechanics, or meta-gaming the environment to be at least greatly favorable to your standpoint, and at most, wholly unrealistic (As in 3 People - no matter how high level - defending an area of 3.8 Million Sq Miles).

Simply put, I challenge you to arrange a scenario with concrete aspects and we'll hash it out then. Without such, you've just been backpeddling by imposing your own subjective scenarios on the high-level casters. My requirements for the L20 Caster side would be as such:

Casters - Three L20s - Wizard, Favored Soul, Psion (Shaper)
Territory - < 500 Sq Mile Island Nation.
Population - Between 50,000 and 250,000.
Trade - 1 Major Trade Port.
Martial Forces - 5% of Population - Trained.
Government - "Parliament" structure, Seats appointed by the L20s.
Education - Arcane / Psychic academys. Chruch of Relevant Deities / Pantheon. Moderate Martial Training. (None Produce PC-Equivs > L9 for purposes of this warfare)

(Other than appointing the government seats, the L20 Casters have little to no role in the daily going's on of the government)

Flush out your side. Be aware that these Casters are looking out for threats as needed. I highly doubt any plans you have aren't known to them. Also keep in mind that upon gaining any information of casters being "collected" for any campaign against them, these L20s would likely entice them away, or end them quickly.

If you want, I'll even go as far as to provide the spell's known for the Non-Prep Casters so you know I'm not just pulling whatever spell out of my arse when needed.

you did not bring up the nuke idea? Oh really?

To put this in more modern terms, if nukes were all clean and only 1 country had the technology to create / use them - would they make all other armies irrelevant? The answer is yes - if the wielder of the power is amoral enough to slaughter everyone against them.

Oh, i wonder what this is? Seems like you brough up the nuke idea to me.
As for me arguing for multiple fronts, yes i am. If you read all my posts, i've been arguing
1. PC don't makes armies irrelevant.
2. 20 level 20 wizards can't defeat 5 million people. They would kill a massive amount, more than an army could realisticlly handle, but they would lose in the end.
3. Tech beats magic any day.
4. Their is not way in hell that a magic middle age army can beat a modern army
5. We can nuke Mr. T
6. If some country somehow magically had all the nukes in the world, armies still would not be irrelevant
7. PC classes would have an effect upon the ways armies are run in the fantasy worlds, don't make armies irrelevant.
8. No group of non epic PCs can pull a "House of Flying Daggers" and wipe out a massive force of people.
9. PC classes make a difference, but armies are always something that can be taken into acount
10. Given the right senerio, even the weaken creature can beat a much stronger one.

You're trying to put words and sentiments upon me which are not mine, but belong to other's in this thread. Perhaps this is because you're debating on multiple fronts, and not incompetent. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, you took up Mr. Tippy's argument. The idea that 20 level 20 casters could defeat a 5 million size army in a land the size of the US. And untill your most recent post, i presumed you used his conditions.

I also find it ironic that you'd say, "Don't back out because you point is losing, ether admit your wrong, reach a compromise, or argue the same point, don't flipflop your way out with backwater signs of arrogance."

Pot, Meet Kettle.

You have yet to make a point, just the idea that you could make a point. you are still changing what your arguing? Are you arguing that PC's classes make a difference, or that they make armies irrelevent? Or that nukes can beat the rest of the world put together?

I've never had a problem admitting I'm incorrect - unlike some it seems. However, you've still never adknowledged that there are a variety of outer planes with faster times. How does that affect your argument if, say, one has a safe-house on a temporally accellerated plane?

Well that is damn convient of you. But how does that prove you point? that is like saying "Ok, i get a niffy safe point where i can rest to regain my spells then come back at you in about 5 min. Sucks to be you? Yes, yes it does." Sure, and i can say that all my 5 millions men a level 20 fighters, but that would be cheap and off topic as well. We are trying to find out of PCs are irrelevent, not if having next to unlimitied spells can help you kick ass.

As to my point, you've still successfully to refute it without pulling in modern mechanics, or meta-gaming the environment to be at least greatly favorable to your standpoint, and at most, wholly unrealistic (As in 3 People - no matter how high level - defending an area of 3.8 Million Sq Miles).

how am i meta gamming? You have kept using Tippy's idea. I've been going along with that. Hell, i even presumed that my men are crappy recuited npc classes with no training.

Simply put, I challenge you to arrange a scenario with concrete aspects and we'll hash it out then. Without such, you've just been backpeddling by imposing your own subjective scenarios on the high-level casters. My requirements for the L20 Caster side would be as such:

Casters - Three L20s - Wizard, Favored Soul, Psion (Shaper)
Territory - < 500 Sq Mile Island Nation.
Population - Between 50,000 and 250,000.
Trade - 1 Major Trade Port.
Martial Forces - 5% of Population - Trained.
Government - "Parliament" structure, Seats appointed by the L20s.
Education - Arcane / Psychic academys. Chruch of Relevant Deities / Pantheon. Moderate Martial Training. (None Produce PC-Equivs > L9 for purposes of this warfare)

That does not work out. Why? Because you get a nation. If you win what does that prove? That you nation is stronger than mine? If i win what does that prove? That my nation is stronger? No. We are trying to prove that PCs don't make armies irrelevent. You having yoru own army ruins the whole idea of the debate. If you have an army then you prove nothing by winning. The point is that a group of PCs could make an army irrelevant, not that your nation is stronger.
from,
EE

okpokalypse

2007-02-26, 12:28 AM

you did not bring up the nuke idea? Oh really?

There you go again. I specfically said in the previous post "The few times I've made mention to nukes it's been in two contexts. One, of the terminology of mage's "nuking" the enemy - as in laying waste. And Two, to draw modern comparisons where people insist on using such. One recent example was to draw the comparison of only one side having high-level casters, and the anti-morale effect they'd have on an army being the equivalent of a modern nation being the only one with nuclear capabilities."

Nukes have been brought up LONG before I made mention of them, and in a far different context. You're trying to use my nuke reference to inject a whole slew of modern terminology into a non-modern campaign. It doesn't work, and your argument is weak at best.

As for me arguing for multiple fronts, yes i am.

I'm glad you can admit it. It's obviously affecting your ability to coherently keep track of your sentiments as thread appropriate.

If you read all my posts, i've been arguing
1. PC don't makes armies irrelevant.
2. 20 level 20 wizards can't defeat 5 million people. They would kill a massive amount, more than an army could realisticlly handle, but they would lose in the end.
3. Tech beats magic any day.
4. Their is not way in hell that a magic middle age army can beat a modern army
5. We can nuke Mr. T
6. If some country somehow magically had all the nukes in the world, armies still would not be irrelevant
7. PC classes would have an effect upon the ways armies are run in the fantasy worlds, don't make armies irrelevant.
8. No group of non epic PCs can pull a "House of Flying Daggers" and wipe out a massive force of people.
9. PC classes make a difference, but armies are always something that can be taken into acount
10. Given the right senerio, even the weaken creature can beat a much stronger one.

1. High Level PCs do make armies irrelevant, specifically well tuned High-Level Caster PCs, if the other side doesn't have them. That's been my argument, which you seem to consistantly gloss over.

2a. If they were the agressors, and the other side didn't have sufficiently high-level PC's to counter them, yes, they could. Per previous examples, I could, with just a Cleric and a Psion/Wizard, cause devaststion in a 70,000 sq ft area with one spell, doing 80 Damage, and leave. That reasonably kills all but L10+ PC-Types.

2b. If they were on the defensive, it all depends on how long they've had knowledge of it. If I had 6 months for-warning, you can't win without sufficiently high-level PCs of your own.

3. Bull****. Serious Bull****. Tech is limited by real-world phsyics buddy. Magic is limitless. How hard is that to understand? Miracle? Wish? Come on. Get a Clue!

4. Obviously, because today's modern armies are doing so well rooting out Iraqi militants that I'm sure they'd have no problem against an enemy that can instantly transport across continents, or shift to other planes - not to mention cause firestorms, earthquakes and have miracles ready to be called upon. No problem. [/Sarcasm]

5 & 6. Who cares / Not Relevant.

7. I finally agree, in part, with you. However, my premises, since the very beginning, is that one side has high level PC Classes and the other side does not. Certainly, when both sides possess the same weapons, tactics change to use / counter these weapons and tactics brought about from such. That's why I've continually endeavored to say at every turn that the other side does not have high-level PC Classes.

8. See my Dwarven Defender example earlier. He can't be hurt by an infinite number of standard NPC Warriors (of under L6) that would effectively outpace the Fast Healing he could possess. I can make a lot of these builds quite easily actually. A persisting Cleric is the worst of em. Greater Aspect, Vigor, Storm Rage, Pro from Normal Missile = All Day Killing Machine against standard infantry.

9. Again, I agree - but only if both sides have em.

10. Definitely, but can you ever see 3 L20 Casters allowing themselves to be caught in the weakened position? When they have Intellect or Wisdom on par with Divinity - or possibly exceeding such?

Are you arguing that PC's classes make a difference, or that they make armies irrelevent? Or that nukes can beat the rest of the world put together?

I've been arguing the point that High-Level PCs make armies irrelevant provided the other side does not have PCs of their own.

But I've stated this multiple times, and you've casually sidestepped or outright ignored it.

As far as I'm concerned a reasonable debate with you went out the door when you said such things as...

"Ok you just lost the argument their" - Personally I always get a kick out of people declaring themselves victors before the discussion is even remotely over, and doing it with poor grammer as well.

You said, "I'd do as Stalin would do." in one post, and then in another cited unreasonable tactics when presented with L20 Casters performing total annihilation citing, "If you willing to destroy the world and everyone on it, then yes, yes you win." Surprise - that's what I've been saying for a while if you had bothered to read! Because, shockingly, these PC Casters are powerful enough to take those that matter to them and actually just leave the world (or move everything to a remote area of the world) if necessary, and then "nuke" it. There's no fallout from Lion's Roars, Energy Wave and a ShapeChange'd Red Dragon's Breath Weapon. They just come back in when they've sufficiently depopulated the enemy.

Also, I've gotten a kick out of you having stated "Your defending a country the size of the US" and then when I told you that I never said that I was doing such (in fact citing that such a large terrirory is utter unreasonable) you then countered most unintuitively with, "This is Tippy's argument, not mine." Funny - last I checked, I'm not Tippy.

Well that is damn convient of you. But how does that prove you point? that is like saying "Ok, i get a niffy safe point where i can rest to regain my spells then come back at you in about 5 min. Sucks to be you? Yes, yes it does." Sure, and i can say that all my 5 millions men a level 20 fighters, but that would be cheap and off topic as well. We are trying to find out of PCs are irrelevent, not if having next to unlimitied spells can help you kick ass.

It's relevant within the context of the D&D Fantasy game environment. If such is available to near-epic level casters, your entire defense is moot, as these 3 Casters could literally lay waste to a city every 10 minutes. With troops in the field in standard well-spaced formations or camps, they could butcher you. Seriously, like killing > 1,000 per minute over time. In 24 Hours you could be looking at 1.5 Million dead in your regular army. Could you ever hope to mobilize and invade in 3 days, assuming you've got an army of 5 Million? Even a month with an army of 50 Million?

These environments which enable such ARE in WotC D&D Material. Not Splt-Books. Not Optional Rule - but in the published Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition books. Do you subjectively remove this factor because it doesn't suit your stance?

And I think that's another sticking point. We're talking the D&D world - where reality is at best stretched thin. Based on the rules governing the games mechanics, it's completely possible, nay - quite probable, that near epic-level casters could completely dominate an entire nation of non-PC class inhabitants.

That does not work out. Why? Because you get a nation. If you win what does that prove? That you nation is stronger than mine? If i win what does that prove? That my nation is stronger? No. We are trying to prove that PCs don't make armies irrelevent. You having yoru own army ruins the whole idea of the debate. If you have an army then you prove nothing by winning. The point is that a group of PCs could make an army irrelevant, not that your nation is stronger.

Fine by me! I was trying to make it easier on you by tying myself to a locale and providing people to defend so at least you had a point to attack. I'll make it a depopulated island manned by nothing other than the 3 L20s w/ Cohorts and Followers of such. Leaves me free to exploit far more agressive tactics.

okpokalypse

2007-02-26, 12:47 AM

I hope you don't mind someone besides EE responding.

Casters - Three L20s - Wizard, Favored Soul, Psion (Shaper), plus ~1000 other casters of level 1-10
Territory - >800,000 Sq Mile mainland Nation.
Population - Between 10 and 15 million
Military Budget - Equivalent of ~$1 billion (US)
Martial Forces - 500,000 for this campaign - Trained intensively to all have at least 3 levels each in PC classes.
Government - Bureaucrats and governors appointed by the L20s.

You may find some of these objectionable. However, I can back each up with a solid argument.

Casters - I predict this to be the most objected to. However, I would logically, with my much larger population, have at least as many high level casters as you do. Also, nothing says I can't have PC classes or even level 20 casters. All I need to do to satisfy the thread's question is have a good use for the army, for if it is necessary or even convenient to use it, then it is relevant.

Military Forces - The PC classes and high levels might seem like it defeats my argument, but as I have stated before (more than once) any army fits the threads requirements. Though I have extremely limited knowledge of D&D, I am pretty sure that a year of intensive training would be sufficient to reach third level, and my troops could probably get significantly more than than that.

The point of this debate (whether it be sub-debate or tagential thread debate) is High-Level PC Casters v. Regular Army. At least the debate as I've set forth for some time. I know it was initially something different, and I've conceded that if both sides have high-level Caster PCs, they largely cancel each other out until such a time as one or the other is eliminated.

If your side supports equally high level casters, then it becomes a "which side's casters drop first." The first thing I'd do it try to take em out with battle contingencies at the ready. Hopefully catch em napping.

If you want to try again without Caster PC Classes in your setup, by all means go ahead, but this exercise where I'm participating is L20 Casters v. Regular Army. The example of the Regular Army (very rough) I posted was:

1 L20 WarLord
10 L15 Generals
100 L12 Colonels
1000 L10 Captains
100000 L8 Sergeants
250000 L6 Corporals / Specialists
And about 9,650,000 L4 - L1 Soldiers / Conscripts.

Dervag

2007-02-26, 12:52 AM

As for the rest of your post, it's not even worth replying to at this point. It's just a rehash of everything else you've said that I think is either completely irrelevant because you can't use 20th+ century examples of warfare in comparison to a medieval fantasy environment. You just can't.Sure you can. When magic does what technology does (like slaughter an entire army of close-order infantry, or flatten a town overnight), then you can often compare the effects of magic to the effects of technology. What nation would send its highest-level casters out to destroy the enemy capital, knowing that the enemy could respond in time?

okpokalypse

2007-02-26, 11:12 AM

Sure you can. When magic does what technology does (like slaughter an entire army of close-order infantry, or flatten a town overnight), then you can often compare the effects of magic to the effects of technology. What nation would send its highest-level casters out to destroy the enemy capital, knowing that the enemy could respond in time?

No, you can't, for a few reasons...

1. Because the biggest things to affect warfare in the modern era wasn't WMDs. It was rate of fire. When the common solider was capable of attacking at range, with accuracy and armor-piercing, at a rate of automatic weapons - it revolutionized warfare. Unless you have a way to make every L1 Soldier in your army capable of doing lethal damage at long range against a highly armored opponent while utilize modern rates of fire, you don't have the semblance of the same army.

2. Because Caster's are not like WMDs. They're far superior when all is said and done - because they are not bound by the laws of physics. Sure, they don't affect quite the area and do structural damage as a WMD does, but they've got replenishable ammunition (spells) with little material cost. They've also got instant-transport capabilities and evasion so far surperior to anything we could even conceive of today that it's not comprable.

In your statement you say, "What nation would send its highest-level casters out to destroy the enemy capital, knowing that the enemy could respond in time?" The simple answer is because they're being mobilized against. They need a show of force to demoralize their opponent to prevent an incursion. That, or make their homeland unfindable via high-level magic. But again, this begs the question of "are these Caster's defending a Nation?" When I put forth an example of them defending a nation I was told that they can't have a nation. Ok. If there's no people to defend, and it a Nation warring against 3 Casters, there's nowhere for the army to mobilize to. It's trivial for high-level casters to up and move - to another plane of existance if necessary. That army could be travelling the world for generations and never force a confrontation with these Casters.

And, the continuing point I've been trying to make is that the enemy nation cannot respond in kind. Where these Caster's can transport in, lay waste, and transport out - the other side must mobilize and army.

Pastafarian

2007-02-26, 02:59 PM

The point of this debate (whether it be sub-debate or tagential thread debate) is High-Level PC Casters v. Regular Army. At least the debate as I've set forth for some time. I know it was initially something different, and I've conceded that if both sides have high-level Caster PCs, they largely cancel each other out until such a time as one or the other is eliminated.
And I never said otherwise. I was responding assuming I was proving the answer to the question that started the thread. If one side has no similar level PCs, I will concede that they are likely to be slaughtered. However, this is a highly unlikely scenario, and off-topic as well.

If your side supports equally high level casters, then it becomes a "which side's casters drop first." The first thing I'd do it try to take em out with battle contingencies at the ready. Hopefully catch em napping.
However, an army would be very useful for forcing enemy PCs into the open, where they could be destroyed, thus making the army relevant.

Dervag

2007-02-26, 03:13 PM

Unless you have a way to make every L1 Soldier in your army capable of doing lethal damage at long range against a highly armored opponent while utilize modern rates of fire, you don't have the semblance of the same army.But the majority of battlefield casualties in modern wars are caused by artillery, not by fast-firing small arms. The small arms have certainly changed tactics (no more close-order marching on the battlefield). But the majority of the death is caused by the heavy artillery and air support.

2. Because Caster's are not like WMDs.They aren't the same, but that doesn't mean they are entirely unlike.

High-level casters can pop out of nowhere, do lots of damage, vanish, and repeat the process more or less as often as they like. I think that you'll agree with that much.

The problem is that unless there is a massive disparity between the caster-power of two sides, both sides are equally capable of doing this. That is the fundamental way in which high-level casters become like nuclear missiles. Even today, we have no reliable way to stop a nuclear missile short of its target; it is as damaging as any caster could reasonably hope to be. So if casters can pop out of nowhere, uninterceptably, and devastate, and if nuclear missiles can fall out of the sky, also uninterceptably, and devastate, why can there be no similarity between the way casters behave and the way that the missileers in a position to launch nuclear strikes behave?

In your statement you say, "What nation would send its highest-level casters out to destroy the enemy capital, knowing that the enemy could respond in time?" The simple answer is because they're being mobilized against. They need a show of force to demoralize their opponent to prevent an incursion.What makes them think that they will not become victims to a similar show of force?

If I had an army, I'd much rather send it off to fight the enemy army and take my chances (with my casters in reserve in case things looked bad) than start a war in which I know that both nations' capitals (including my house) will be laid waste.

But again, this begs the question of "are these Caster's defending a Nation?"I say that they should be. If they are to make armies obsolete, then they have to be able to do what armies are supposed to do- namely, defend a nation.

If there's no people to defend, and it a Nation warring against 3 Casters, there's nowhere for the army to mobilize to. It's trivial for high-level casters to up and move - to another plane of existance if necessary. That army could be travelling the world for generations and never force a confrontation with these Casters.Absolutely true, as long as the enemy has no casters of their own... which is not a small assumption to make in a D&D world.

And, the continuing point I've been trying to make is that the enemy nation cannot respond in kind.They can if the casters care about anything and if the enemy has casters of their own. Again, this is not dissimilar to mutually assured destruction. Your nuclear arsenal may be safe from a nuclear attack, but the houses of your countrymen are not.

EvilElitest

2007-02-26, 03:25 PM

Ok, where to start. You had to double post, so let me handle on point at a time.

To put this in more modern terms, if nukes were all clean and only 1 country had the technology to create / use them - would they make all other armies irrelevant? The answer is yes - if the wielder of the power is amoral enough to slaughter everyone against them.

Ok, here you brought up the nuke idea.

There you go again. I specfically said in the previous post "The few times I've made mention to nukes it's been in two contexts. One, of the terminology of mage's "nuking" the enemy - as in laying waste. And Two, to draw modern comparisons where people insist on using such. One recent example was to draw the comparison of only one side having high-level casters, and the anti-morale effect they'd have on an army being the equivalent of a modern nation being the only one with nuclear capabilities."

Why make a modern reference. Who asked you for one? Did I? No. Any modern references to nukes have been in reference to killing Mr.T, or stating that tech is better than magic. Why even make a modern reference that does not work? Becasue the nuke reference does not work by the way, as i stated before.

As for you example of the nukes, no the nukes would not be able to defeat all other armies. You would do tons of damage, and kill mass amount of people. But armies would not be irvelavent, how could you hold land? And if i have all hte people in the world against your nuke filled country (say North Korea?) where will you nuke? You can't nuke the entire world without running out of nukes, and by then the soilders of the world will overrun you. Their are to many men. Nukes have limatation and you can nuke the entire world and hope to live. If you willing to destroy the world and everyone on it, then yes, yes you win. The the army is still relevant.
From,
EE

Does not work. And nukes are not a good anology anyways. As you said so your self.

2. Because Caster's are not like WMDs. They're far superior when all is said and done - because they are not bound by the laws of physics. Sure, they don't affect quite the area and do structural damage as a WMD does, but they've got replenishable ammunition (spells) with little material cost. They've also got instant-transport capabilities and evasion so far surperior to anything we could even conceive of today that it's not comprable.

Nukes have been brought up LONG before I made mention of them, and in a far different context. You're trying to use my nuke reference to inject a whole slew of modern terminology into a non-modern campaign. It doesn't work, and your argument is weak at best.

They have not been brought up in the context you used. Hence different argument. As for modern terminology, that is a reference to how tech beats magic.

I'm glad you can admit it. It's obviously affecting your ability to coherently keep track of your sentiments as thread appropriate.

With the way your flipfloping around i have to.

1. High Level PCs do make armies irrelevant, specifically well tuned High-Level Caster PCs, if the other side doesn't have them. That's been my argument, which you seem to consistantly gloss over.

2a. If they were the agressors, and the other side didn't have sufficiently high-level PC's to counter them, yes, they could. Per previous examples, I could, with just a Cleric and a Psion/Wizard, cause devaststion in a 70,000 sq ft area with one spell, doing 80 Damage, and leave. That reasonably kills all but L10+ PC-Types.

2b. If they were on the defensive, it all depends on how long they've had knowledge of it. If I had 6 months for-warning, you can't win without sufficiently high-level PCs of your own.

3. Bull****. Serious Bull****. Tech is limited by real-world phsyics buddy. Magic is limitless. How hard is that to understand? Miracle? Wish? Come on. Get a Clue!

4. Obviously, because today's modern armies are doing so well rooting out Iraqi militants that I'm sure they'd have no problem against an enemy that can instantly transport across continents, or shift to other planes - not to mention cause firestorms, earthquakes and have miracles ready to be called upon. No problem. [/Sarcasm]

5 & 6. Who cares / Not Relevant.

7. I finally agree, in part, with you. However, my premises, since the very beginning, is that one side has high level PC Classes and the other side does not. Certainly, when both sides possess the same weapons, tactics change to use / counter these weapons and tactics brought about from such. That's why I've continually endeavored to say at every turn that the other side does not have high-level PC Classes.

8. See my Dwarven Defender example earlier. He can't be hurt by an infinite number of standard NPC Warriors (of under L6) that would effectively outpace the Fast Healing he could possess. I can make a lot of these builds quite easily actually. A persisting Cleric is the worst of em. Greater Aspect, Vigor, Storm Rage, Pro from Normal Missile = All Day Killing Machine against standard infantry.

9. Again, I agree - but only if both sides have em.

10. Definitely, but can you ever see 3 L20 Casters allowing themselves to be caught in the weakened position? When they have Intellect or Wisdom on par with Divinity - or possibly exceeding such?

Oh 1 point at a time.
1. how have i glossed over anything. You say that highlevel PC can beat whole army of 5, million, and i have been stating how that is un true.
2a . Ok, can you say in detail how your idea of devastating massive amounts of land will work short of your little time changing idea. And in the aformentioned argument, when brought up by Tippy, the 5,million were the agressers.
2b. If you had pre knowlage of it, then the topic changes to
"does having time to prepare for an attack before hand help you win a battle?"
Yes it does, but we are arguing if armies are made irrelevant.
3. Bull, compared to the boop coming out of your mouth here?
Ok lets compare.
Magic, if you are using standard fanstasy world, you get a few high level casters, who can only cast a few spells per day. If i am using the US army (greatest in the world) i can nuke your little country to pieces. No matter what, a middle age fanstasy world can't beat modern. Why? Becuase your using freaking swords. EVERY SINGLE ONE of my soilders are using guns. A lot of them are using machine guns. I have a massive air force. In one day, you few high level casters can cast only a few wish and miricles. In one day, i can nuke every major city in whatever country you have. Even when i run out of nukes, i can still simple bomb all your towns and soilders. I can napalm your farms, i can gass your armies from air. And i have a few hundred thousand tanks! Sure 1 mage can destroy a tank, but hey guess want? I have a ton of them. And your basic soilders can't defeat them. I have machine guns, motors, flamethrowers, hand gernades, and fast moving transport jeeps and trucks. I have a massive naval force that has huge guns that can destroy any of your ships. I have the abilty to produce massive amounts of weapons in very little time, i can move faster (paracute troops into your lands) i have tons of amunation, i have a great medical force. Listen, you may have clerics, but only a small percentage of your pouplulation and they can't be everyone at once. My doctors are in massive numbers compared to your clerics, and they can keep healing when your guys have run out of spells. And troops have first aid kits. Hell, even if every one of your soilders have a +1 long sword (how i don't know), you will not be able to use it by the time i shoot you. Even when your arch mage comes to blast us, watch here. Every single troop can shot up to 50 shot in one round (if they use basic machine guns) and all of my guns will start to shoot you as fast as possible. Only 1 bullet is needed to kill you. Hell even if you guys somwho get you into hand to hand, my guys have bayonets, knives, and i can use the national guard's swordsmen. Hell, even my machanics could kill some of your guys only usesing their whimpy pistols. Hell, look at comunacation. Yours casters can communicate around the country, but waste a spell. My guys can keep doing it all day long. Every sing soilder has acsess to tech, and with guns that means every single man can kill one of yours. And i can keep using my tech all day long without rest, you have to stop to regain spells, i don't.
If you don't trust me, how about this?

I contend that a wizard would have a very tough time destroying a modern fighter. No matter how smart he is, he's not going to be able to instantly assess a fighter's speed and do the trigonometry required to place a spell on an intercept course to hit with anything resembling reliability. This in large part has to do with the fact that no one has that kind of mental capacity, but it has more to do with humans being incapable of processing spatial relationships at anything close to the speed of sound. We're not wired for it; our eyes and brains work on the assumption that we can't move much faster than our running speed.

It won't take very long after you start using cloudkill on a modern army for them to break out the NBC gear. Then you're done, at least with that tactic.

Modern weapons outperform magic as stated in destructive power in every conceivable category. There is no spell that can outperform a nuke. Hell, there isn't one that can replicate a 2,000 pound bomb. And that's before we get into JDAM, laser guided munitions, TV guided missiles, and any number of other tricks a modern military has up it's sleeve.

Speaking of categories, you left one out: Range. A modern, non-infantry weapons system will typically have a range measured in miles, not feet or even hundreds of feet. There are rifles in existence that can outrange a long-range (400ft. + 40ft/level) spell and do so accurately. A Tomahawk cruise missile can strike targets hundreds of miles away, and when it arrives can wreak havoc according to it's warhead up to and including a tactical nuclear detonation. D&D magic cannot hold a candle to modern military technology in the field of destructive warfare.

I can go on. I suspect that later I'll be doing so. But that should be sufficient for now.

QUOTE=Lord Zentei;2032598]LOL!!

{table]Category | Magic | Current Military tech | Advantage
Communications | Telepathic Bond requires a high level caster to use, and works only for him and a very limited number of selected individuals. Moreover, they do not work in dead magic areas. | Satellite Communications are ubiquitous, freely available to anyone with a communicator. They are not as easy to jam as you insinuate. | Tech
Portability | Greater Teleport works only with a very small group of people and will not move into dead magic areas. | Airplanes are mass produced and a fleet of them can carry vast numbers of people. They can not be detected and stopped fairly easily if they have stealth tech and/or weapons. And who the sam hill would need to carry them in their backpack, what a ridiculous criterion. | Tech
Killing Potential | Though selective, has very limited casting range and area of effect compared with heavy duty tech and can only be used a limited number of times per day for even a high level caster. Claiming that the destructive force can be specified to a very large extent is asinine, since Tech has that advantage to easily a far greater degree | Is far, far more than merely either incredibly destructive and indiscriminate (nuclear weapons) or highly accurate but not as destructive (sniper rifle), there are also these things called "machine guns", "grenades", "mortars", "IED"s, you might perhaps have heard of them at one point or other. These can be used continually, and by any jackandapes, moreover, they are MASS PRODUCED | Tech, by a VAST margin.
Detectability | Certainly possible to detect with an amazing first level spell. I'm sure you know which one I refer to. As for tech only, you need the wizard to cast, and people, including specific people, can be detected with tech in a vast range of ways. | Well, hello mister stealth bomber. And hello mister cruise missile that carries a tonne of high explosives with pinpoint accuracy from across the horizon, and you never knew what hit you | Tech
Size | All of the above is doable ONLY by a wizard that has TRAINED FOR DECADES nor is it easy to mass produce| Requires multiple large systems and the backing of an advanced nations economy, and can rely on the productive power thereof to curbstomp the wizard with sheer frigging mass | Tech
[/table]
Tech beats magic in almost every field. Who gives a good goddamn whether or nor a wizard is more portable than an airplane, harder to detect than a solider on the ground, and more destructive than a tank or bomb (he is not neccesarily that either). All of this is certainly detectable and very very hard to acquire in the numbers neccsary for accomplishing more than glorified terrorism. [/QUOTE]

4. What the hell? Yeah really, what the hell? Hey guess what, the people of Iraq have GUNS! The iraq conflict is a Modern vs. Modern conflict, not modern vs. medevil. And why is the US losing, i hate having to go so off topic but.
1. The US did defeat Iraq's standing army in 2 days. They currently can't hold it, becuase their is no way to tell friend from foe.
2. The are given a mission they can't possible forefill.
3. The homefront is not backing them
4. (note, this is regarding miltary, not personal politics) The politions having proven themselves inept at keeping this situation under control, are not surplying the troops properly, giving them impossible task, and destroying morals
5. We can't win? Why? Becasue their are no WMD to find.

Not at all relevent
I apoligize to those who are effect by our current war. I did not want to get into current affairs, but i needed to name why we are losing counter his point.

5. But it was relevant earlier in the thread, as somebody brought it up.
6. You brought this point up. Yes it is not relevant, but you brought it up, as explained earlier.
7. A massive amount of npc classes, with tatics made to fight PCs is still a threat, and their for still relevant. Also, bear in mind. I can say, but i think that this person is making a reference to PCs as a group of PCs, not PC classes. And a massive number of fighters is still an army.
8. For the cleric, what do you do if you run out of spells? For the dwaren defender, ok here is what i do. Sence most of your ablities require you to stand still, an get one large force to stay away and shoot you with a massive amount of arrows. i think i have maybe 500 troops, have have 400 staying way from you and shooting you like hell, while the rest build a catapult and smash you with rocks. Sure you would win if i told my men to walk up to you and simple stab you one at a time.
9. If one side as enough men, they can simple over run what ever defense you have. I am talking massive number but..
10. Ok, so your saying that your casters will never ever make a mistake? Ever? It is impossible for them to screw up in any way possible. Bear in mind that while the fodder have relatively low int, my higher ups can be quite smart. Ok, if all of your guys are marysueish and unable to fail in any manner, then yes. But that is impossible.

I've been arguing the point that High-Level PCs make armies irrelevant provided the other side does not have PCs of their own.

But I've stated this multiple times, and you've casually sidestepped or outright ignored it.

How have i ignored that? i simply agressed it. I have stated that given eough people, even NPC classes can take out high level PCs. And by the by, an army of PC is still and army and therefor you point is moot.

"Ok you just lost the argument their" - Personally I always get a kick out of people declaring themselves victors before the discussion is even remotely over, and doing it with poor grammer as well.

Ah, look at you fighting a losing battle. it is like the southern states at the end of the civil war. well watch me shiver in my little space boots. You have as yet shown any ponts in your "argument" that can be countered.

You said, "I'd do as Stalin would do."

yes i did. The content was how would i brain wash 20 level 20's into duty to the country. By raising them with me as their fatherly figure. Install loalty into them while they were young. Why, does me making a reference to Stalin make me evil? Or my point less cretiable?

in one post, and then in another cited unreasonable tactics when presented with L20 Casters performing total annihilation citing, "If you willing to destroy the world and everyone on it, then yes, yes you win." Surprise - that's what I've been saying for a while if you had bothered to read!

Hey guess what, if you destroy the entire world then you would win. But you lost the world (or a good chunk of it). Because you lost so much, the army is not irrelevant. Sure you won, but lost almost everything where fighting for. Congratz. Oh, and that was in reference to a different post.

Because, shockingly, these PC Casters are powerful enough to take those that matter to them and actually just leave the world (or move everything to a remote area of the world) if necessary, and then "nuke" it. There's no fallout from Lion's Roars, Energy Wave and a ShapeChange'd Red Dragon's Breath Weapon. They just come back in when they've sufficiently depopulated the enemy.

yeah, but the army is not irrelevant. You ran away. You did not defend you nation. Oh and i am very sceptical about your idea, considering that your idea of the mini plane did not work out. Can you explain in greater detail.

Also, I've gotten a kick out of you having stated "Your defending a country the size of the US" and then when I told you that I never said that I was doing such (in fact citing that such a large terrirory is utter unreasonable) you then countered most unintuitively with, "This is Tippy's argument, not mine." Funny - last I checked, I'm not Tippy.

Tippy started the idea of 20 level 20's casters defending a nation the size of the US against a force of 5 million, with the resources of China. Until very recently, you have not stated how you differ from his arugment. As long as you argue the same idea, you are subjugated to anything directed at Tippy, unless you state otherwise.
I did not come up with the idea of 20 level 20 defending the country the size of the US, Tippy did.
Oh yes you are not Tippy, his arugments had some basic appeal
Anyways, if you are defending a country the size of the US, like as you mention before a country the size of Hawei, well then, i can swarm it over before you can kill all my guys. Where can you hid in a country the size of Hawei. Even if i can't find you, i took you land very easliy.

It's relevant within the context of the D&D Fantasy game environment. If such is available to near-epic level casters, your entire defense is moot, as these 3 Casters could literally lay waste to a city every 10 minutes. With troops in the field in standard well-spaced formations or camps, they could butcher you. Seriously, like killing > 1,000 per minute over time. In 24 Hours you could be looking at 1.5 Million dead in your regular army. Could you ever hope to mobilize and invade in 3 days, assuming you've got an army of 5 Million? Even a month with an army of 50 Million?

No it is not relevant. Getting a little pocket plane with a little loophole that allows you to hit me with unlimited spells is besides the point.
The point is not
"Does have an unlimited amount of spells at my desposal and the ablity to cast them all in about 10 min. make armies irrelevant." yes, in that case it is. But the point is
"Do PC classes make armies irrelevant?"

These environments which enable such ARE in WotC D&D Material. Not Splt-Books. Not Optional Rule - but in the published Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition books. Do you subjectively remove this factor because it doesn't suit your stance?
[/QUOTE]

No, because it is a tatic that
1. Is so cheap that i doubt any DM would allow it in normal champain.
2. Irrelevant to the point of the thread.
3. Irelevant to the idea this example. You are defending a country the size of the US, or Hawei, or whatever size country it is from 5 million people. This has nothing to do with you defending a plane with a different time system that allows you to cast all you spells, retreat, sleeps, and come back to cast in only 5 min.

And I think that's another sticking point. We're talking the D&D world - where reality is at best stretched thin. Based on the rules governing the games mechanics, it's completely possible, nay - quite probable, that near epic-level casters could completely dominate an entire nation of non-PC class inhabitants.

Yeah the could. But that is besides the point. The senerio we are talking about is 20 level 20 casters, or in your case 3 level 20's defend some sized land from 5 million troops. not wheather or not your nation could defeat mine by having PCs classes.

Fine by me! I was trying to make it easier on you by tying myself to a locale and providing people to defend so at least you had a point to attack. I'll make it a depopulated island manned by nothing other than the 3 L20s w/ Cohorts and Followers of such. Leaves me free to exploit far more agressive tactics.

If i had a point to attack, then you would have men to recuit, thuse making this situation irrelevant to the thread. I would love to have a tatical match with you, i really would, but as it is that would have not relevence to the thread.
Ok, but it is your 3 guys defending an island against 5 million. Why do you get Cohorts and Follows? have your guys gained the leader ship feat?
Anyways, if it is an island, then you the advantage of nautral protection. That adds "do PCs with natrual advantages make armies irrelevant"?

Could you ever hope to mobilize and invade in 3 days, assuming you've got an army of 5 Million? Even a month with an army of 50 Million?

I have 50 million now? Sweet thanks. Because it does not matter how many men i have, as long as i can do damage i am quite relvant.

onwards to your most recent post.

No, you can't, for a few reasons...

1. Because the biggest things to affect warfare in the modern era wasn't WMDs. It was rate of fire. When the common solider was capable of attacking at range, with accuracy and armor-piercing, at a rate of automatic weapons - it revolutionized warfare. Unless you have a way to make every L1 Soldier in your army capable of doing lethal damage at long range against a highly armored opponent while utilize modern rates of fire, you don't have the semblance of the same army.

2. Because Caster's are not like WMDs. They're far superior when all is said and done - because they are not bound by the laws of physics. Sure, they don't affect quite the area and do structural damage as a WMD does, but they've got replenishable ammunition (spells) with little material cost. They've also got instant-transport capabilities and evasion so far surperior to anything we could even conceive of today that it's not comprable.

In your statement you say, "What nation would send its highest-level casters out to destroy the enemy capital, knowing that the enemy could respond in time?" The simple answer is because they're being mobilized against. They need a show of force to demoralize their opponent to prevent an incursion. That, or make their homeland unfindable via high-level magic. But again, this begs the question of "are these Caster's defending a Nation?" When I put forth an example of them defending a nation I was told that they can't have a nation. Ok. If there's no people to defend, and it a Nation warring against 3 Casters, there's nowhere for the army to mobilize to. It's trivial for high-level casters to up and move - to another plane of existance if necessary. That army could be travelling the world for generations and never force a confrontation with these Casters.

And, the continuing point I've been trying to make is that the enemy nation cannot respond in kind. Where these Caster's can transport in, lay waste, and transport out - the other side must mobilize and army.

1. Strange, this seems to prove my point that a modern army could beat a middle age one. I have a much faster rate of fire.
2. Ok wrong. Because you adverage world will only have a few high level casters. In real life, the US has a few Thousand Nukes. Sure you casters can do more, but can they destroy a few thousand cities in one day. And hell, the nukes have a half life that will kill anyone who survies the first attack.
Yeah you have material cost by the way. Spell companents. And yeah, you need to rest. You run out of spells, your out for 8 hours. I can keep nuking all day long before i run out, and while i am nuking, my companies back home are building more nukes. And all of your instant transport capabilities last only as long as you have spell slots, where mine's, while slower, can go on all day. And all of my people can move around in these transport, while only your high level casters and a few other people can be telaported. Oh an all my guys have guns.
3. That is a terriost force. You are defending some sort of land, against a (now) 50 million men. No other soilders at all to help you. And if you have 3 level 20's attack a huge nation, then guess what. You are not fighting the army. You are now a terroist force. That would be a very devastating terroist force, but that is irrelevant, because it is you rebels against a nation, rather than against an army.
When you teleport in and make you attack, i have as many turns are is hav men to let sombody get off an lucky shot.

I mean come on, of the two of us, you are the one that is glossing over the rules in your favor.
from,
EE

PirateMonk

2007-02-26, 05:58 PM

EvilElitest

2007-02-26, 06:36 PM

EvilElitest-

-So, you don't have the time for the spell-checker idea? Whatever. That's fine :smallsmile: .

- I find your rebuttal of the alternate temporal flow idea absurd. Other planes are just one more resource high level PCs have. As for the DMs:

1. How in FSM's name did we get a DM into this?
2. If a DM has a temporary fit of insanity and decides to game a near-epic game, why exactly shouldn't they allow "cheap tricks"?

- While the casters might not win, as I said above, by the end both countries will be destroyed, so the invasion won't happen in the first place.

1. Did you see the amount of words above? It would take an hour to spell check it all. For shorter posts yes, but not for something that long, with so many quotes who's spelling mistakes i don't want to change, because it would not be a quote otherwise
2. Yes, if we view other planes just a something to be milked by the PCs. Calling an ally yeah, summoning stuff yeah, going into the realm of shadow to get around yeah. Owning a niffty plane that allows you to have basically unlimited spells, yeah that is not a resource. that is a weapon itself.
3. Because that sounds broken. If Mr. Poke really wanted to win, he could do that titian ability, where you summon 1 who summons 1 more etc. Then i have to fight unlimited army of titians. Broken. Domination is broken as well, but not cheap and therefor he can use it.
4. Cheap having 20 level 20. It may be cheap, but it is still far within the rules. Having unlimited spells, then we get into a different realm of fair and not fair.
5. Well of course. No general in his right mind would invade a place with 20 level 20 casters. For that matter, what kind of country would have 20 level 20's? Certainly not mine if i was at all logical. But for the purpose of this argument, we must assume that these guys are attacking anyways. Even if both nations are destroyed, the army is still quite relevant.
from,
EE

PirateMonk

2007-02-26, 07:09 PM

1. Did you see the amount of words above? It would take an hour to spell check it all. For shorter posts yes, but not for something that long, with so many quotes who's spelling mistakes i don't want to change, because it would not be a quote otherwise.

I know it's your style and everything, but why rant at all? Not many people will willingly read the whole thing. And it makes pages longer.

2. Yes, if we view other planes just a something to be milked by the PCs. Calling an ally yeah, summoning stuff yeah, going into the realm of shadow to get around yeah. Owning a niffty plane that allows you to have basically unlimited spells, yeah that is not a resource. that is a weapon itself.

Huh? :smallconfused: Weapons don't count as resources now?

3. Because that sounds broken. If Mr. Poke really wanted to win, he could do that titian ability, where you summon 1 who summons 1 more etc. Then i have to fight unlimited army of titians. Broken. Domination is broken as well, but not cheap and therefor he can use it.

The entire D&D magic system is broken.

4. Cheap having 20 level 20. It may be cheap, but it is still far within the rules. Having unlimited spells, then we get into a different realm of fair and not fair.

Exactly, it's not fair. The casters can break the laws of physics at whim and the army can't. The casters are as much as twenty times the level of the soldiers, and that's not fair. Oh, and according to your side, the casters are outnumbered 50 million to three, and that's cripplingly unfair.

5. Well of course. No general in his right mind would invade a place with 20 level 20 casters. For that matter, what kind of country would have 20 level 20's? Certainly not mine if i was at all logical. But for the purpose of this argument, we must assume that these guys are attacking anyways. Even if both nations are destroyed, the army is still quite relevant.
from,
EE

Fair enough. Except, how is the army relevant? It's partially responsible for the destruction in its homeland? Sure, you can cover a little* more ground with 50 million men, but the casters can still build Magnificent Mansions and visit other planes.

Sorry for the semi-rant. :smallredface:

*Yeah, it's horribly understated, I know. Sue me.

Yahzi

2007-02-26, 08:01 PM

I've been arguing the point that High-Level PCs make armies irrelevant provided the other side does not have PCs of their own.
Did anybody ever doubt that? It seems so... obvious.

I confess I don't always read all of the long posts.

:smallsmile:

Dervag

2007-02-26, 08:38 PM

Likewise.

I find it extremely hard to imagine a D&D nation which has an army of respectable size, and yet mysteriously has effectively no high-level individuals whatsoever. It would be like assembling a modern army and somehow forgetting to include antitank weapons or some other essential component.

A nation that has a tiny ceremonial guard army might not have any high-level guys to weigh in on the army's side, but only because they're the D&D equivalent of Liechtenstein or Andorra. Any nation that makes a serious investment in self-defense or other-attack will have plenty of low-level casters seeded among the troops and a number of higher-level ones that are either with the troops or going out and doing the kinds of devastating raids we've all been talking about. If nothing else, natural selection will ensure this. Any army that has no casters can be pretty much wiped out by any army which does have casters. The casters can move around at will, make themselves immune from the average trooper's attack, and do vast amounts of damage to anything they want. Of course they'd win against some gigantic horde of first level warriors; the warriors can't possibly stop them!

So any armies and nations that are still around after the history of the world goes on for a few generations will be the ones that made extensive use of magic.

EvilElitest

2007-02-26, 09:06 PM

I know it's your style and everything, but why rant at all? Not many people will willingly read the whole thing. And it makes pages longer.

Three reason
1. The post I was replying to was huge. To counter everything in it, i had to do likewise.
2. With a rant, you cover all of the details, and hopefully make you point across.

Huh? :smallconfused: Weapons don't count as resources now?

No, I was refering to niffy plane with gave him unlimted spells. That is not a resource, that is a weapon. A resoure is somthing that can help you, like food and surplies, defensive position, high moral, or medical equiment. The surplies needed to make mundane weapons are a resource, but a Nuke itself is not. Weapons and Army are not resources, but their own catagory, weapons. I'm not 100% but i pretty sure thats it. Regardless, unlimited spells is not a fair playing field.

The entire D&D magic system is broken.

Yes, but only to an extent. Warlocks for example.

Exactly, it's not fair. The casters can break the laws of physics at whim and the army can't. The casters are as much as twenty times the level of the soldiers, and that's not fair. Oh, and according to your side, the casters are outnumbered 50 million to three, and that's cripplingly unfair.

But that is why their rules. If it is Gods vs. unlimited people, then yes, yes it is the that kind of unfair. But the magic systems has rules for a reason.

Fair enough. Except, how is the army relevant? It's partially responsible for the destruction in its homeland? Sure, you can cover a little* more ground with 50 million men, but the casters can still build Magnificent Mansions and visit other planes.

But you do tons of damage. If you destroy both nations, then the army is quite relevent, because they caused tons of damage.

Sorry for the semi-rant. :smallredface:

*Yeah, it's horribly understated, I know. Sue me.

Gladly /Sue

Arbitrarity

2007-02-26, 09:26 PM

Ok... is it just me, or is everyone demi-agreeing anyways?

Look. With any sort of cheese designed to own people, the wizard wins. We know this, you can't really block infinate spells/day, or, say, planar shepard cheese (with the wizard creating a plane of slow (1 year/round) time).

Duh.

Secondly, the casters on their own are undefeatable. You can't tac-nuke a group with a surprise round and time stops. That's all they need to do.

Thirdly, the casters do have a tough time defending a nation. Not much they really can do, at least without incredible cheese. WoF (perma) all missile silos, disintigrating airplanes, OK, but limited time and resources (without removing the country to defend, i.e. paradise rods), screw them over, as they can't do everything.

Magic>Tech, and tech>magic, depending on situation. Magic is more versatile in many situations, and many instances of "Cheese" are merely creative applications of the tools known. Nukes are cheesy, as they do far too much damage. Is anything cheesy in a war?

Eh. W/e. And the plane is a resource, as it helps the casters. It isn't directly a threat in any way.

Screw it. Single wizard, on his own,>any number of high tech stuff. Celerity, dumb D&D rules, time stop, and immunities.

And epic spells. (Teleports part of world into hades. Repeats.)

Pastafarian

2007-02-26, 10:12 PM

Though I do not agree with everything you said, the general gist is more or less accurate. Now how about we take this into a system that is better balanced and designed (and even, dare I say it, semi-realistic (or as close as you can get and still have magic)) and see how long the wizards last. In GURPS, I predict maybe ten minutes before they die after running out of ST, powerstone charge, etc.

Fawsto

2007-02-27, 12:13 PM

The problem is that any medieval army is mostly composed by recruits, these ones are the lvl 1 combatents, at best, a general is a lvl 9-11 charcter. Meaning that the PJs can ocupy the same position, but are taking the enemys down in the battlefield.

The point is, High level NPCs are uncommon and are taking comanding posts in the army estructure.

The General could be fighting in the battlefield too, but if he eventualy gets killed who will lead the army? So it is a matter o preservation to spare the General. The PJs are simply not bound to this rule. They are freelancers. That's the advantage for the army that employs them.

Matthew

2007-02-27, 02:34 PM

Quite a blanket statement and a misleading one. Medieval Armies potentially varied hugely in quantity and quality. The Norman Invasion of England, for instance, was, by all accounts, a highly motivated and professional army. How you assign D&D Class Levels to represent this, is up to you.

okpokalypse

2007-02-27, 03:37 PM

Pastafarian

2007-02-27, 04:15 PM

The problem is that any medieval army is mostly composed by recruits, these ones are the lvl 1 combatents, at best, a general is a lvl 9-11 charcter. Meaning that the PJs can ocupy the same position, but are taking the enemys down in the battlefield.
As has been mentioned many, many times before <rants about people who say things before reading all 426 posts>, armies in a D&D world would have only vage resemblance to historical medieval European armies. The threats posed by magic users and monsters would force armies to train their troops up to a level where they could not only have the initiative and discipline to avoid bunching up to be slaughtered, but also be powerful enough individually to have a chance of hurting even mid to high level PCs in enough numbers. Armies who insisted on using mobs of level one peasants would not last long.

LotharBot

2007-02-27, 04:47 PM

as the L20's are concerned (subjectively) they (the army) are irrelevant because they are not a threat.

If the L20's only care about their own survival, an enemy army is irrelevant. If they care about protecting a city or nation, then an enemy army can be anything from a nuisance to a level-appropriate challenge, depending on how the army is put together and how the DM uses them.

Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision. If one of these Near-Epics just wish that all their enemies weapons were made of cheese, it's over.

I'm not familiar with Reality Revision, but I do know both Wish and Miracle. Wish allows you to accomplish things of similar power to "reroll one roll from the last round", "duplicate a lower-level spell", "true-resurrect someone", "gain a +1 bonus to an ability score", etc. Miracle has powers like "protect a city from an earthquake".

"Wish all the enemies weapons were made of cheese" is a fair bit out of line with the power of the spell. If I was DM'ing something like that, I'd make the enemy weapons all spell-storing (bestow curse: -6 STR) poisoned (something STR-draining) spiked chains, cuz that's pure cheese ;)

In conclusion... PC classes make armies irrelevant, beat tech, etc. or they don't, depending on exactly how the DM handles the armies, tech, splatbooks, spells, etc.

Matthew

2007-02-27, 05:23 PM

As has been mentioned many, many times before <rants about people who say things before reading all 426 posts>, armies in a D&D world would have only vage resemblance to historical medieval European armies. The threats posed by magic users and monsters would force armies to train their troops up to a level where they could not only have the initiative and discipline to avoid bunching up to be slaughtered, but also be powerful enough individually to have a chance of hurting even mid to high level PCs in enough numbers. Armies who insisted on using mobs of level one peasants would not last long.

And as has been said a number of times, Medieval Armies were not composed of Mobs of Peasants, as a rule. D&D Armies may or may not resemble Medieval Armies, depending on a number of factors.

Dark

2007-02-27, 06:32 PM

The question could be rephrased as:

What kind of army is effective in a world with PC classes?

I suspect we'll see relatively small, well equipped armies where even the grunts are at least level 3, possibly level 6 in high-powered campaigns. The regular units will have same-level PC classes in special roles, just like real-world units had medics and chaplains. The army will also have special forces consisting entirely of higher-level PC classes, and possibly even elite regular units such as an assault group of barbarians or an archery unit of rangers.

These would be standing, professional armies. Militias are not going to be effective because they're going to be mostly commoners with hayforks. In peacetime they are probably used as police forces, and as protection against bandits and monsters, and as watchposts on the borders.

The main reason for them being "relatively small" is that it will be expensive to train people to 3rd-6th level of a useful class, and to equip them well. But how small is small? I'm thinking of between 0.1% to 1% of the total population, depending on how dangerous the area is. In a country the size of France, with medieval population density (about 10 million people), that would be between 10,000 and 100,000 soldiers. The capital (a city of 100,000) would be policed by 100 to 1000 soldiers, but about half of the country's army could gather at the capital with a few weeks' notice.

That would just be the fighting forces, though. Any army will have several times that number of people handling supply and logistics, and those can all be commoners.

For comparison, the modern land forces of the Netherlands are about 0.15% of the population. I didn't find any size figures for historical armies.

So, would an army like this be relevant and effective?

PirateMonk

2007-02-27, 07:03 PM

Dark

2007-02-27, 10:43 PM

Probably. Especially if you could mass produce spell-throwing items. :smallbiggrin:
That raises the question of how this army will be equipped :smallsmile:

Let's first see how much money there is to work with. An average NPC with 4 ranks in a Craft of Profession skill will make about a gold piece per day by taking 10. Since both of those are class skills for Commoner, there's no reason for a country to have untrained laborers at all! Profession (farmer), bring it on :)

So that gives about 360 gp per year per citizen. Let's say 10% of that can be taken as tax, and 20% of the tax goes to support the military and police. There will be 100 to 1000 citizens per soldier, according to my previous figures, but not all of those will be in the workforce. Let's say 300 citizens per soldier are gainfully employed, giving military funding of 2160 gp per soldier per year.

At least 360 gp of that should go to the soldier's salary and upkeep, and probably more because the soldiers are highly trained and need to be kept loyal. Also, supply, coordination, and training will involve several citizens per soldier that also need to be paid. Let's say 1500 gp per year is used for upkeep of one soldier, leaving 660 gp per year for equipment.

The average foot soldier should probably be equipped with less than that, to leave a budget for warhorses (150 to 400 gp) for the mounted soldiers.

Now, keep in mind that a lot of equipment will last a long time. A good sword or set of armor might last 20 years, effectively reducing its yearly cost to 1/20th (unless you're expanding the army). Wooden weapons, like bows, might last 5 years. This puts masterwork armor and weapons easily in range of the budget. Come to think of it, the warhorses won't be a big drain on the budget either, they only cost 18 gp per year to feed and they should be good for many years too.

So, let's think about the expensive stuff -- magic items. Permanent items should be good for 20 years too (they don't last forever because they get stolen or lost, etc). That gives us a budget of about 12000 gp per soldier. Charged items like wands are probably not worth it, because then you have to buy new ones regularly.

What's in range of these budgets? There are +1 weapons for 2300 gp, perhaps +1 adamantine for 5000 gp. +2 weapons for 8300 gp are in range, so you could equip a unit with +1 flaming swords or +1 composite longbows of distance. You could also have just masterwork weapons for most of a unit so that you can afford brilliant energy weapons (50000 gp) for a special squad.

+1 armor is only 1000 gp more than normal. If most of the budget goes toward armor rather than toward weapons, then +3 armor (9000 gp) is reasonable. This could be a straight enhancement bonus, or something that gives Spell Resistance or Fortification. A Cloak of Resistance +1 can be added for 1000 gp. A Ring of Counterspells (4000 gp) can protect against specific threats, such as Dominate Person on an officer.

Mounted units can be outfitted with Horseshoes of Speed (3000 gp) or Horseshoes of a Zephyr (6000 gp). A weirder option is to give a whole unit Boots of Speed (12000 gp) instead of fancy armor and weapons.

By not using up the full budget for each soldier in a unit, some money can be reserved for expensive items that are assigned to the whole unit instead of to each soldier.

A Rod of Enemy Detection (23500 gp) is good for any unit that might have to march through dense forest or other ambushable locations. A Rod of Negation (37000) can really save the day, for example by disabling an enemy caster's metamagic rod during a battle. A Lantern of Revealing (25000) can be similarly useful.

The Horn of Valhalla (50000 gp) can provide reserves at crucial moments in battle, and is also great for setting off ambushes.

An Instant Fortress (55000 gp) makes a great archery platform, and can double as an offensive weapon in a pinch.

There doesn't seem to be any permanent healing item at any price, but is there anything that prevents an army from commissioning use-activated Rods of Cure Light Wounds for a couple of thousand gp each?

EvilElitest

2007-02-27, 11:45 PM

Ok, I've taken a step back and re-evaluated this whole discussion on a few points...

Relevance / Irrelevance:

I think it has to do with one's concept of relevance. If you're concept is "as of being related to the topic" then yes, the army is relevant. I have, possibly erroneously, been working more under the concept of relevance in the legal sense of "having significant and demonstrable bearing."

In the former, a puddle is relevant in that it alters the path you travel - but as to the latter concept it is not because it doesn't have significance.

Taking the latter stance, as the L20's are concerned (subjectively) they (the army) are irrelevant because they are not a threat. They are only a nuisance. They are (subjectively) as relevant to them insofar as they force one to address it (kind of like one swating at a fly, or spraying some raid) - but there's no real threat. In fact, the more I think about it - the largest threat such an army would pose is disease. Amassing a middle-ages army of that size would create plague faster than one could imagine. If that plague hit my populace, that would probably cause the biggest headache when all is said and done.

On this topic I will go no further. I've found myself having to rewrite large sections of posts because I've become annoyed and frustrated, and I don't want to further violate the code of conduct than I already, inadvertently, have. If anyone wants to really hash it out, PM me and we'll take it in there. Hell, I'll give you my phone # and we can discuss in a more conducive fashion than in forum-mode.

Magic v. Tech:

Looking at that Magic v. Tech grid from LZ exhibits a lot of bias for Tech. A lot. Communications & Size I'll give you. But Portability? Detectability? Those are definitely in favor of Magic. Killing Potential I'd put at about even because the rate at which Magic is replenished is far greater and washes out the greater area effects of Tech.

You also fail to address one simple thing... Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision. If one of these Near-Epics just wish that all their enemies weapons were made of cheese, it's over. You cannot discount the limitless and unbounded effects of Wishing, Miracles and Reality Alterations. That's the whole reason Magic always trumps Tech in the end.

Cheese (Mechanics, Feats, Spells, etc..)

Just because something is deemed "cheese" by one, or even the community at lagre - if it is relevant within the D&D 3.5 Ruleset, it should be fair game in this, or any other exercise which does not limit such "cheese" from the onset. A Temporally Accellerated plane, no matter how much it may seem like "cheese" is still a game mechanic. It must be taken into consideration if invoked by either side.

As one poster pointed out earlier, their access to such environments is a direct result of their acheivement. It is a resouce, provided by game mechanics, they are able to utilize with enough knowledge & power.

In Conclusion...

I won't post on this topic beyond this (most likely).

EE - I'm not saying I won, nor am I saying you lost in this "debate" (if you can even call it that). In fact, I think we've been arguing from such wholly different perspectives, that we stopped having the same discussion (if we ever were). We've just been arguing for the sake of arguing for a while, and that just gets us nowhere other than wasting a lot of time and getting annoyed.

Peace!

Oh boy, i love the "Final argument that evades the point". Ok now i have to go though this entire thing. Could you at least adress the issues i brought up. Whatever lets get started.

Ok, I've taken a step back and re-evaluated this whole discussion on a few points...

Gladly, somthing sensible might be presented.

Relevance / Irrelevance:

I think it has to do with one's concept of relevance. If you're concept is "as of being related to the topic" then yes, the army is relevant. I have, possibly erroneously, been working more under the concept of relevance in the legal sense of "having significant and demonstrable bearing."

In the former, a puddle is relevant in that it alters the path you travel - but as to the latter concept it is not because it doesn't have significance.

Wrong and wrong. Not in defination, but in interpitation.
1. Relevant as related to topic.
A good way to difine this would be what is relevent to the point of the thread. So you puddle idea would have not point to the thread unless it somehow explained how PCs make armies irrelevent. So if you say
"My mages have unlimited spells and so i can destroy your entire army"
That is not relevent to the point of the thread, because we are not trying to prove that having unlimited amounts of spells make armies irrelvant. Of course they do. But we are not trying to prove that unlimitied amount of spels make armies irrelvent, and so it is irrelevant. Now saying
"My 20 level 20 Wizards could defeat your army of 50 million"
That is quite relevent because if you could win (which has not determined as yet) it will be very relevant. Hell if you lose (which also has not been determiened) then it is still very relevant to the thread
2. Relevant as in "having significant and demonstrable bearing."
Ok, if i post something like
"Fighters are underpowered." and say nothing more, then i will have no relevence to the topic
If i say "Fighters are underpowered, and so Core Spell Caster classes willl more have more of a chance to make armies irrelevant." then i am quite relevant to the topic.

Taking the latter stance, as the L20's are concerned (subjectively) they (the army) are irrelevant because they are not a threat. They are only a nuisance. They are (subjectively) as relevant to them insofar as they force one to address it (kind of like one swating at a fly, or spraying some raid) - but there's no real threat. In fact, the more I think about it - the largest threat such an army would pose is disease. Amassing a middle-ages army of that size would create plague faster than one could imagine. If that plague hit my populace, that would probably cause the biggest headache when all is said and done.

Or you prove yourself wrong because you following a screwed up relevance system.
1. The amry is not irrelevant by any means. They are trying to kill them. With 50 million guys. Even if the casters win, they will most likely lost most of their guys and suffere extreme damages to their land. Or they will have to destroy both their entire land or the army. Or they will have to leave their home. that is all quite relevant. What is irrelevant would be a group of 30 goblins up against a level 20 fighter. Will the goblins have any chance of winning? It is possible, but very unlikely. Will the fighter have not trouble. Almost certainly. Could the goblins do 5 damage to him. Yes they could if some rolled 20's. Now if the fighter killed them, then rested. By the next day he is 100% healed. The goblins are almost 99% irrelevant. Now what if the fighter shrugges of the 5 damage and moves on, and get into enough fight, this time against a tough enemy. The enemy then defeats the fighter because of the lost 5 hit points. Unlikely sernario? Yes. Possible. Yes. that makes the damage the goblins did relevant in the most basic form.
2. Getting ride of 50 million soilders is not like swatting a fly. The casters will have their hands full fighting them, and most likely suffere heavy losses. It will take weeks at least. Swatting a fly has next to no affect on your life
3. Yeah but if we assume that you have 20 level 20 casters, and i have 50 million men we can't bring diseas into this situation. This is not because it would have a negative affect to me, but because it is to unpredicible. If i lost my entire force before we even meet you casters, then the debeate is moot. There is no way to measure the damage of disease.

On this topic I will go no further. I've found myself having to rewrite large sections of posts because I've become annoyed and frustrated, and I don't want to further violate the code of conduct than I already, inadvertently, have. If anyone wants to really hash it out, PM me and we'll take it in there. Hell, I'll give you my phone # and we can discuss in a more conducive fashion than in forum-mode.

Damit. Please don't leave. If you do, then the other side's point will not be made and i will have to wait for a who know how long before somebody starte an debeat again. I don't think you have voilented teh code of conduct on this thread, but if you did i am very sorry. Though i am quite happy, i enjoy ranting. But if you leave, they their is this uneasy sense of "well i disagree but i don't want to respone becuase he is not here" sort of situation. But please if you want my phone number, email me. I'd love to keep this going.

Magic v. Tech:

Looking at that Magic v. Tech grid from LZ exhibits a lot of bias for Tech. A lot. Communications & Size I'll give you. But Portability? Detectability? Those are definitely in favor of Magic. Killing Potential I'd put at about even because the rate at which Magic is replenished is far greater and washes out the greater area effects of Tech.

You also fail to address one simple thing... Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision. If one of these Near-Epics just wish that all their enemies weapons were made of cheese, it's over. You cannot discount the limitless and unbounded effects of Wishing, Miracles and Reality Alterations. That's the whole reason Magic always trumps Tech in the end.
[/QUOTE]

yes portabilty. You can only transport small groups. Hell you will only have a small amount of mages in the adverage fanstasy world. Detectability. Sure you few amount of mages can zoom around and shoot fire at me. My stealth missel bombers will do just that, sleath bomb you. You don't have a radar, so how will you even notice unless you waste a scying spell. As for wish, miracle, reality revision, all of those have limitations. I'd like a second option, but i don't think you can
"Wish all my enemies weapons turn into cheese."
Also you will only have a few people with those spells.
As for killing potentail, you have what, 5, 000 spell casters of various levels tops. I have about a hundred thousand nukes. Your spell casters are of differing strength and not all can case the really powerful spells. Hell, at best you can use a wish and copy the effect of 1 nuke. But all of my nukes of equel power. And you don't have all the spell slots for just killing. You need scying, teleport, communication, buffs (or i shoot you even easier), heals, and protections. All of my nukes can do just that, Nuke. Even if you somehow stop some, the rest will do enough. And your guys run out of spells. I run out of nukes (after much longer time). You guys rest for 8 hours. I use all of my massive amount of other bombs to keep the job going. And tank, and motors, and guns, napalm, ect.
And all of my people have acess to tech.

Cheese (Mechanics, Feats, Spells, etc..)

Just because something is deemed "cheese" by one, or even the community at lagre - if it is relevant within the D&D 3.5 Ruleset, it should be fair game in this, or any other exercise which does not limit such "cheese" from the onset. A Temporally Accellerated plane, no matter how much it may seem like "cheese" is still a game mechanic. It must be taken into consideration if invoked by either side.

As one poster pointed out earlier, their access to such environments is a direct result of their acheivement. It is a resouce, provided by game mechanics, they are able to utilize with enough knowledge & power.

We can use any chesse? Ok, well then all of my 50 million soilders, are Pit Fiends. With no class levels. Yeah, do they prove my point. Yes, they are still an army. Is that legal. Yes, because Pit Fiends are in RAW. Does that ruin the arugment. Yes it does.

In Conclusion...

I won't post on this topic beyond this (most likely).

EE - I'm not saying I won, nor am I saying you lost in this "debate" (if you can even call it that). In fact, I think we've been arguing from such wholly different perspectives, that we stopped having the same discussion (if we ever were). We've just been arguing for the sake of arguing for a while, and that just gets us nowhere other than wasting a lot of time and getting annoyed.

Peace!

I am fine with you arguing agaist me. If all i heard was my own option, then something would be wrong. But if you just leave the debate, then are you not admitting defeat? I can counter you arguements, but you can't counter mine. And saying that we don't think alike, is just like saying
"It is easier to blame our different out look on a different mind set".
That works for religion, or politics, or morals. But not for a logical arugment. I would say more but if you are just going to leave then i will not bother. Nice working with you.
Peace
From,
EE

illathid

2007-02-28, 02:40 AM

Wrong and wrong. Not in defination, but in interpitation.
1. Relevant as related to topic.
A good way to difine this would be what is relevent to the point of the thread. So you puddle idea would have not point to the thread unless it somehow explained how PCs make armies irrelevent. So if you say
"My mages have unlimited spells and so i can destroy your entire army"
That is not relevent to the point of the thread, because we are not trying to prove that having unlimited amounts of spells make armies irrelvant. Of course they do. But we are not trying to prove that unlimitied amount of spels make armies irrelvent, and so it is irrelevant. Now saying
"My 20 level 20 Wizards could defeat your army of 50 million"
That is quite relevent because if you could win (which has not determined as yet) it will be very relevant. Hell if you lose (which also has not been determiened) then it is still very relevant to the thread

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Could you clarify this maybe?

2. Relevant as in "having significant and demonstrable bearing."
Ok, if i post something like
"Fighters are underpowered." and say nothing more, then i will have no relevence to the topic
If i say "Fighters are underpowered, and so Core Spell Caster classes willl more have more of a chance to make armies irrelevant." then i am quite relevant to the topic.

I still don't understand what this has to do with what okpokalypse was saying.

Or you prove yourself wrong because you following a screwed up relevance system.
1. The amry is not irrelevant by any means. They are trying to kill them. With 50 million guys. Even if the casters win, they will most likely lost most of their guys and suffere extreme damages to their land. Or they will have to destroy both their entire land or the army. Or they will have to leave their home. that is all quite relevant. What is irrelevant would be a group of 30 goblins up against a level 20 fighter. Will the goblins have any chance of winning? It is possible, but very unlikely. Will the fighter have not trouble. Almost certainly. Could the goblins do 5 damage to him. Yes they could if some rolled 20's. Now if the fighter killed them, then rested. By the next day he is 100% healed. The goblins are almost 99% irrelevant. Now what if the fighter shrugges of the 5 damage and moves on, and get into enough fight, this time against a tough enemy. The enemy then defeats the fighter because of the lost 5 hit points. Unlikely sernario? Yes. Possible. Yes. that makes the damage the goblins did relevant in the most basic form.

This is a straw man argument, which is a logical fallacy. The argument is that because there are tactics that a wizard can use to effectively render anything (excepting some high CR monsters and mage slayers) obsolete, any army would cause little or no trouble for a group of 20 high level casters. (Project Image, Greater Blink, Time Stop, Control Weather, Gate, Polymorph)

2. Getting ride of 50 million soilders is not like swatting a fly. The casters will have their hands full fighting them, and most likely suffere heavy losses. It will take weeks at least. Swatting a fly has next to no affect on your life

Why would the wizards have to suffer heavy losses? Having many high level casters means that, like I proposed above, there would be highly accurate knowledge of any attack before it happened. This knowledge means that the wizards have any number of options for taking care to make sure that an attack never reaches their shores. Maybe that means putting a large number of Permanent Images around their nation to make it appear inaccessible to all that don't know the the correct path. Maybe it means Gateing a young adult Force dragon into the enemies war room while the top generals are planning the invasion.

The reason the army is irrelevant is because of the wizards fore knowledge. If I knew, in advance, every punch that an enemy was going to throw at me, it would be easy to counter every one of them. It would be no more effort on my part than stepping out of the way of a puddle or swatting a fly, to quote okpokalypse. That is why the army is irrelevant.

Magic v. Tech:

yes portabilty. You can only transport small groups. Hell you will only have a small amount of mages in the adverage fanstasy world. Detectability. Sure you few amount of mages can zoom around and shoot fire at me. My stealth missel bombers will do just that, sleath bomb you. You don't have a radar, so how will you even notice unless you waste a scying spell. As for wish, miracle, reality revision, all of those have limitations. I'd like a second option, but i don't think you can
"Wish all my enemies weapons turn into cheese."
Also you will only have a few people with those spells.
As for killing potentail, you have what, 5, 000 spell casters of various levels tops. I have about a hundred thousand nukes. Your spell casters are of differing strength and not all can case the really powerful spells. Hell, at best you can use a wish and copy the effect of 1 nuke. But all of my nukes of equel power. And you don't have all the spell slots for just killing. You need scying, teleport, communication, buffs (or i shoot you even easier), heals, and protections. All of my nukes can do just that, Nuke. Even if you somehow stop some, the rest will do enough. And your guys run out of spells. I run out of nukes (after much longer time). You guys rest for 8 hours. I use all of my massive amount of other bombs to keep the job going. And tank, and motors, and guns, napalm, ect.
And all of my people have acess to tech.

The reason magic beats tech is for the things technology can not replicate. Like getting highly accurate information about the future, or removing seemingly incurable diseases with a touch, or removing blindness or deafness, or regnerating lost limbs/organs in 12 seconds to 2 minutes, or controlling the weather, or whatever. It's magic! It can do anything.

And it is for that reason that Wish is so powerful. One wish could turn all of a nations nukes into bouquets of flowers, provided that the person asking the wish spent enough time insuring that there are no loop holes that could be exploited.

We can use any chesse? Ok, well then all of my 50 million soilders, are Pit Fiends. With no class levels. Yeah, do they prove my point. Yes, they are still an army. Is that legal. Yes, because Pit Fiends are in RAW. Does that ruin the arugment. Yes it does.

Come on. It is perfectly reasonable for a high level caster to have created a personal demiplane. It is not reasonable to have an army of 50 million pit fiends.

I am fine with you arguing agaist me. If all i heard was my own option, then something would be wrong. But if you just leave the debate, then are you not admitting defeat? I can counter you arguements, but you can't counter mine. And saying that we don't think alike, is just like saying
"It is easier to blame our different out look on a different mind set".
That works for religion, or politics, or morals. But not for a logical arugment. I would say more but if you are just going to leave then i will not bother. Nice working with you.
Peace
From,
EE

Here's the thing, its hard to accept that you are participating in a logical discussion when you seem to have no care for spelling, grammar, punctuation, or the rules of logic. People will be better able to respond to your arguments as well if you spend a little more time cleaning up your posts.

Vik

2007-02-28, 05:59 AM

You should probably create another thread to discuss "Tech vs Magic".

On the Regular Army low-level vs PCs, my experience is that army isn't worth it. I played in a game where we had troops and went on war ; after the first battle, the troops were following us as an occupation force, and we did the battles.

Come on, even a Fighter will win battles by himself if he can be buffed by his friends beforehand.
A Fighter with an armor of invulnerability, and shield of heavy fortification will take 0.0625 pt of damage per soldier attacking him (from 1d8+1-5 hitting only on a 20). If he has drunk a potion of Protection from arrows, that's at most 0.5 pts of damage per round (if 8 soldiers attacks him every round). And each round he can kill something like 4 soldiers (from 4 attacks, not counting any bonus attacks). So we have a ratio of 8 soldiers per hit point, with all the time needed to drink potions or being cured (3 pts taken per minute). With his good friend the cleric or a good supply of potions (low cost, 50 gp each), he'll last all day long (fatigue is not a problem : Lesser Restauration, a 2nd level spell, removes it). Killing at least 40 soldiers per minute, or 240 soldiers per hour. In a few hours, he can take any fort.
If there are low-level casters in face of him, a simple Mind Blank cast by the wizard is enough to protect him against all dangerous spells (such as Hold personn). And I'm talking about the Fighter !

Defending a country is a bit different, but not so much. A high level party will blow up any country defended only by troops - meaning that, again, it's all about PCs vs high level NPCs. If a party had to defend a country vs an army, then they'll strike at the head of the army, who has to be of significant level to be able to resist.

As to been overwhelmed : with an expense of 500 xp and 14,000 gp, you can have one ice devil for your caster level days ; who can cast at will cone of cold and ice storm, summon at a time 1d6 bearded devils, teleport at will to any strategic point, and will resist anything low level npcs will cast at him (DR 10, Regeneration 5, SR 25, Immunity to fire and poison, elemental resistances ...). For 4,000 mor gp, that's a freaking Pit Fiend you have. Heck, as the task is not dangerous at all, it should even cost half that.
So for 9,000 gp (and 500 exp, okay), you have a Pit Fiend that will kill countless soldiers, and scare the others. For the same cost, you have enough to equip only 200 soldiers with 50 gp of equipment for each of them (and in fact, it would be more in the 100 gp per soldier) - but that's not counting the expense you needed to train them, to pay them and to feed them before the battle ...

Winterking

2007-02-28, 06:39 AM

after the first battle, the troops were following us as an occupation force, and we did the battles.

That's the key. So, PCs may be able to win the battles. The wizards may have little difficulty casting spells of "Kill Everything Yes You Too," the Clerics might be nigh-invulnerable, and even the lowly Fighters can scythe through a truly obscene number of enemies.
Yet to occupy the country, to be in every one of a thousand towns at once, to police the streets, to oversee the carts of Expensive Magical Components (tm), and to make sure the formerly enemy-ruled farmers keep farming and paying your side taxes, an army is necessary. At the very least, armies remain relevant as occupation/police forces.

EvilElitest

2007-02-28, 02:41 PM

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Could you clarify this maybe?

I still don't understand what this has to do with what okpokalypse was saying.

This is a straw man argument, which is a logical fallacy. The argument is that because there are tactics that a wizard can use to effectively render anything (excepting some high CR monsters and mage slayers) obsolete, any army would cause little or no trouble for a group of 20 high level casters. (Project Image, Greater Blink, Time Stop, Control Weather, Gate, Polymorph)

Why would the wizards have to suffer heavy losses? Having many high level casters means that, like I proposed above, there would be highly accurate knowledge of any attack before it happened. This knowledge means that the wizards have any number of options for taking care to make sure that an attack never reaches their shores. Maybe that means putting a large number of Permanent Images around their nation to make it appear inaccessible to all that don't know the the correct path. Maybe it means Gateing a young adult Force dragon into the enemies war room while the top generals are planning the invasion.

The reason the army is irrelevant is because of the wizards fore knowledge. If I knew, in advance, every punch that an enemy was going to throw at me, it would be easy to counter every one of them. It would be no more effort on my part than stepping out of the way of a puddle or swatting a fly, to quote okpokalypse. That is why the army is irrelevant.

The reason magic beats tech is for the things technology can not replicate. Like getting highly accurate information about the future, or removing seemingly incurable diseases with a touch, or removing blindness or deafness, or regnerating lost limbs/organs in 12 seconds to 2 minutes, or controlling the weather, or whatever. It's magic! It can do anything.

And it is for that reason that Wish is so powerful. One wish could turn all of a nations nukes into bouquets of flowers, provided that the person asking the wish spent enough time insuring that there are no loop holes that could be exploited.

Come on. It is perfectly reasonable for a high level caster to have created a personal demiplane. It is not reasonable to have an army of 50 million pit fiends.

Here's the thing, its hard to accept that you are participating in a logical discussion when you seem to have no care for spelling, grammar, punctuation, or the rules of logic. People will be better able to respond to your arguments as well if you spend a little more time cleaning up your posts.

1. Mr. okpokalypse difined what was relevant and irrelevant. I disagreeded. That would not make sense if you did not read his argument first i agree, but why would you comment on this thread if you did not read the whole argument?
2. To make an argument, you need points. My point about fighters being underpowered has nothing to do with my real argument, but if somebody brought that up it could. Basiclly, If i thought that PC's did make armies irrelevant i might want to make a point that wizards would make an army irrelevant far more than a fighter. Now if i just stated "Fighters are underpowered" and said nothing more i would be talking about something irrelevant. Should i state that "Fighters are underpowered and so that class might not make armies irrelevant" then that hs something to do with the point of this thread and so is relevant. Maybe not correct, but relevant.
3. Might i ask why, instead of adressing the point i made you simple repeat what you and all the people who agree with you have been saying for this entire thread? Now, look at it this way. You can do damage with 20 level 20 wizards certainly. You can wipe out massive amounts of guys. You might possible win (with losses). But you can't take out 50,million guys easily by any means. Because you run out of spells. And no spell will instent kill all 50 million people. And so each caster will be out of the fight for 8 hours each. In that time, my men could do massive amounts of damage to your country, however big it is. That makes them a challenge and therefor relvant. An irrelevant force would be 5 guys challenging all of your wizards armied with pointy stick and having only 1 level in warrior each. Unless your casters are unspeakable dumb, you could take them out with not trouble in the least. The army of 50 million is a huge challenge to overcome, and so you would need to focus all of your efforts to destroy it.
4. I'm sorry but five flaws there.
4a. If your casters have time to plan ahead, then they are not longer simple PC's making an army irrelevant, they are PC with time to set up defences making an amrie irrelevant. Bear in mind, as long as my army can do any real damage to your guys at all, it is relevant.
4b. If your nations is the size of the US (as Tippy claimed) then you could not permenent image the whole boarder.
4c. We are not sure that divination tatic would work 100%, because what if the outsider you spoke with lied to you?
4d. If you kill all the guys in my war room, then you are doing what PC normally do. They don't take on the army head on, they kill the leaders. That however, may win you the battle, but does not prove the point. You need to do more than just win, you need to prove that your PC's can defeat my 50 million soilder army head on with little or no losses, thus making my army irrelevant.
4e. Your wizards would most likely suffer losses, because they are only allowed to make one mistake. Sure if every single spell you cast works 100% percent, every single one of my guys rolls 1's every time, then yes you could win. But when a wizard shows up to blast my guys, each one can make an attack. Now 1 out of 20 will hit for damage. But this is a massive amount of people, so it is quite likely that enough guys will do enough damage to kill at least a few caster before the fight is over.
Oh and you can't see so far into the future that you can see every punch i throw at you. Does not work that well.
5.Yes it is magic. Yes it can do more than tech in a one to one level. But how many mages will the adverage nation have? And sure you can cure blindness and grow back limb. But guess what, you will run out of spells. And what can my doctors do? I will have so much more of them, and i can do only slightely worst. And when your magic runs out? My docotors will still be healing. And who can you hurt me in a way more than my nukes are hurting you? As for wish, 1. you can't wish for something like that. 2. Even if you could, how would you do it without loopholes? 3. How many guys do you have that can cast wish in your country. In normal fantasy settings, high level characters are very rare. You can do a lot with wish, but you can't take out all my nukes with one wish. And how does your nation even know what nukes are? You will not know until one of them has been dropped, and i would drop a lot at the same time.
6.Yes but not a demi plane that has a different time system than the materal plane. We went over this, does not work. To get a demi plane with a different time system, you would have to obtain one in a manner other than your spells, which is an assumption that ruins the argument. Does the adverage level 20 wizard have a demi plane that allows him to use up all his spells, vanish for 5 min, then come back all full with spells again? No. Now it is possible that one wizard got a demi place like this in some kind of deal with an outsider, but it is so out of the ordnary that i can saftly say that it is to rare to be allowed in a senerio like this. And i is quite possble i have an amry of 50 million pit fiends, but it ruins the senerio.
7. Yeah and you have evaded the point of my argument and are simple repeating yourself and mr. okpokalypse. And you did not counter my agrument in a manner to prove them wrong.
from,
EE
P.S.
I am very sorry that this is so mispelled, i am using a school computor right now and i am not allowed to download an online spell check. I will change it when i get home, around 10:30 New York time.

okpokalypse

2007-02-28, 03:39 PM

Damit. Please don't leave. If you do, then the other side's point will not be made and i will have to wait for a who know how long before somebody starte an debeat again. I don't think you have voilented teh code of conduct on this thread, but if you did i am very sorry. Though i am quite happy, i enjoy ranting. But if you leave, they their is this uneasy sense of "well i disagree but i don't want to respone becuase he is not here" sort of situation. But please if you want my phone number, email me. I'd love to keep this going.

This just shows me you're arguing for the sake of arguing. It's not worth my time to do that, sorry. I feel Illathid summed up well on the counter-point of relevance, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm done arguing relevance with you.

As for the code of conduct, we've both violated it, and I've no desire to do so further.

yes portabilty. You can only transport small groups. Hell you will only have a small amount of mages in the adverage fanstasy world. Detectability. Sure you few amount of mages can zoom around and shoot fire at me. My stealth missel bombers will do just that, sleath bomb you. You don't have a radar, so how will you even notice unless you waste a scying spell.

Portability, Small Group: Obviously Superior.

Portability, Large Group: Teleportation Circle + Permanency. Faster trasnport than military aircraft could every hope to replicate. You could, in theory, based on hustle movement rates, shuffle through 12 every round (120 / Min, 7,200 / Hr, 172,800 / Day) per Circle. This long-distance travel is far superior in volume and speed to what modern-day tech is even remotely capable of.

For examples of this in Literature, read John Ringo's series The Posleen War or The Council War. It's illustrated very well how permanent instantanous transport trumps spacial tranport.

As for killing potentail, you have what, 5, 000 spell casters of various levels tops. I have about a hundred thousand nukes. Your spell casters are of differing strength and not all can case the really powerful spells. Hell, at best you can use a wish and copy the effect of 1 nuke. But all of my nukes of equel power. And you don't have all the spell slots for just killing.

Nukes are finite and all have varying yields. Plus, over time they degrade and get more and more dirty. A 1 MTn nuke from the early 70s would only have about a 10 KTn yield today. And the process to create weapons-grade materials is no short process. If you blew your wad launching all those nukes at once, you'd have a 6-month period before you had another ready. Casters replienish MUCH faster, and don't throw the world into nuclear winter - thereby killing your own people as well.

You need scying, teleport, communication, buffs (or i shoot you even easier), heals, and protections. All of my nukes can do just that, Nuke. Even if you somehow stop some, the rest will do enough. And your guys run out of spells. I run out of nukes (after much longer time). You guys rest for 8 hours. I use all of my massive amount of other bombs to keep the job going. And tank, and motors, and guns, napalm, ect.

Wizards: Go Ethereal and Teleport to the Satellites and use Force Spells to knock em out of orbit. Now you're nearly crippled. Your communication, long-range recon and massive ordinate are all gone. 1 Wizard could knock out most relevant satellites in a few days - tops. If I had, as you said, 5,000 Wizards with preparation on hand, they drink a potion of etherealness, and read teleport scrolls to get up to satellites and back down. The strength of the hit doesn't really matter since they're in a void - it'll knock em off course and make them useless. Magic Missles get the job done - Force Spells affect Material Plane objects from the Ether.

The fact is, in a world with Wizards, you'd never get Satellites up in orbit to begin with... Unless they somehow found themselves in a world already up to 21st Century Tech, in which case you don't know where the Wizard(s) are, they have a long time to figure out the world (we're talking 20+ Ints here - so it will happen) and can act to cripple you before you can reasonably respond, or even figure out a target for response.

We can use any chesse? Ok, well then all of my 50 million soilders, are Pit Fiends. With no class levels. Yeah, do they prove my point. Yes, they are still an army. Is that legal. Yes, because Pit Fiends are in RAW. Does that ruin the arugment. Yes it does.

I guess that works if your General is Asmodeus and I'm living in the 9-Hells. But we're not discussing the Blood War here. That's a bit of an unrealistic stretch. And with no class levels they're still 18 HD + 8 LA = L26 ECL. Does that mean I can have my Cohort be a Divine Rank 20 Deity with only 18 Class Levels?? Please! Just joking about that makes me feel dirty.

I am fine with you arguing agaist me. If all i heard was my own option, then something would be wrong. But if you just leave the debate, then are you not admitting defeat? I can counter you arguements, but you can't counter mine.

Again, this just shows you're more interested in having an argument and saying you can win than actually listening and evaluating what someone has to say. Even after my statements you're arguing from the same angle of exaggerated (over-the-top) examples that just begin to border on silly. Armies of Pit Fiends? A Hundred-Thousand Nukes?

As I said, I'm done arguing relevance. And I think I'm done discussing the whole Magic v. Tech as well... At least in this thread. I'll probably post if it's in a new thread with multiple contributors, but I won't just have more back and forth here. It's pointless.

If it helps you sleep better at night to consider this a "win" - by all means do so. :smallwink:

LotharBot

2007-02-28, 04:02 PM

Why is it that people, when defending the "magic" side of magic v. tech, or the "high-level casters" side of casters v. army, have so much trouble actually keeping the magic straight?

I keep hearing that people can use wish spells to turn the entire enemy arsenal into cheese, flowers, etc. That's way, way out of line with what the "wish" spell description says you can expect, and is therefore likely to only be partially fulfilled and/or fulfilled in a way you don't desire, no matter how much you language-lawyer it.

And now we have:

Go Ethereal and Teleport to the Satellites

Teleport requires you to have seen the destination. Even Greater Teleport requires you to have a reliable description of its location (on the order of a "particularly detailed map".) And then there are questions of momentum and such. It's a pretty tricky prospect to put yourself in orbit, even with magic.

in a world with Wizards, you'd never get Satellites up in orbit to begin with

In a world with people with 20+ INT, we'd have gotten satellites in orbit a thousand years ago. Especially since we have magical ways to produce thrust and such. So in the hypothetical case that both existed in the same world, I'm reasonably certain they'd be hopelessly comingled. And in the hypothetical case that the two worlds somehow came in contact with one another, we need to set down a lot more paramaters -- are they two separate continents on the same planet (in which case, the tech army can invade the D&D country), or are they on different planes (in which case, all the tech in the world is worthless since we don't have planeshift tech)? And so on...

Now, of course, debating magic vs. tech is kind of silly because tech follows the laws of physics, while D&D magic follows the RAW + DM's rule zero. How they interact (in a D&D sense) depends on how strict the DM is with the magic and how the DM models the tech. And how they interact (in the real world)... they don't.

Pastafarian

2007-02-28, 04:46 PM

PirateMonk

2007-02-28, 05:33 PM

Okay, I guess that the D&D magic system has been demonstrated to be sufficiently broken to give a few wizards at least a reasonable chance of defeating millions of soldiers. Utterly disgusted by this, I hereby swear never to be involved in a D&D game above level ten (and even below that, I'll create Pun-Pun to show how badly-made the system is), and announce that I will join Emperor Tippy, Lord Zentei, and okpokalypse in retirement from this thread.

It's also:

Retired:

Emperor Tippy (C)
Lord Zentei (A)
okpokalypse (C)
Pastafarian (U)

Inexplicably Disappeared:

Dausuul (A)
Zeb the Troll (A)
Bears with Lasers (C)
Countless others (M)

Teleport requires you to have seen the destination. Even Greater Teleport requires you to have a reliable description of its location (on the order of a "particularly detailed map".) And then there are questions of momentum and such. It's a pretty tricky prospect to put yourself in orbit, even with magic.
In a world with people with 20+ INT, we'd have gotten satellites in orbit a thousand years ago. Especially since we have magical ways to produce thrust and such. So in the hypothetical case that both existed in the same world, I'm reasonably certain they'd be hopelessly comingled. And in the hypothetical case that the two worlds somehow came in contact with one another, we need to set down a lot more paramaters -- are they two separate continents on the same planet (in which case, the tech army can invade the D&D country), or are they on different planes (in which case, all the tech in the world is worthless since we don't have planeshift tech)? And so on...

Technomancer. In 1968 (23 years after magic appeared) the Hermes station was teleported into orbit, courtesy of 100+ point Powerstones and GURPS teleportation mechanics.

EvilElitest (elitist): You have an army of pit fiends? Okay, my casters are carefully constructed Fifth Level kobolds. :smallbiggrin:

toten

2007-02-28, 05:56 PM

Hi I just had to de-lurk for this discussion:

In regards to the whole magic vs tech debate.

I believe you are missing the most important advantage that technology has over magic, a low barrier of entry to achieve proficient use. Which by the way is also one of the major advantages that gun powered and rifles brought with them in the real world once they could be produced at reasonable rates.

For example in the 17th Century firearms became an integral part of the battle field. Not because they where more powerful, faster or more accurate then archers, but because of their relative ease of use.

An English longbow man kill enemy solders faster, and further away (with accuracy) then a 17th century musketeer. Yet the musket quickly replaced archers on the field of battle, why?

It took years and years to train a compident longbow man, yet you could make a conscript into a fair musketeer within a few months.

That is the true advantage of technology, yes magic as described in D&D is more powerful then technology. But even within the D&D system it takes years and years of study to become a 5th level wizard who can cast a fireball. Yet a commoner could reasonably be trained to operate a bazooka within a few months, and remember the commoner would not even have to hit your wizard/fighter/cleric with a AC of 25. They would just need to target and hit the AC 10 square you are standing on in order to hit you with the full impact of the AoE burst.

The same advantage applies to the production of technological artifact's versus magic items. It takes a very bright, highly skilled person to design the first gun, tank, bazooka, nuke, etc. But once it has been designed and the schematics created a legion of lesser crafts men can produce the item.

With Magic items if you to make a rod of XYZ then you need an X level wizard/cleric. The caster can't make one and then provide exact instruction for a legion of crafters to duplicate it. Each item must be imbued with magic by a caster of equal or greater level then the originator of the original item.

That is the true power to technology. It allows you to take a untrained group and give them the ability, with a few months of training, to duplicate the effect of some specific wizard spell that would require years of training for the wizard to produce.

okpokalypse

2007-02-28, 07:15 PM

Teleport requires you to have seen the destination. Even Greater Teleport requires you to have a reliable description of its location (on the order of a "particularly detailed map".) And then there are questions of momentum and such. It's a pretty tricky prospect to put yourself in orbit, even with magic.

And that's exactly why they're all Geniuses :). As for a "particularly detailed map," I think the orbit paths are more than info enough.

Or, to make things meaner, how about just a few of those L20's going Ethereal, Casting a Widened, Extended Locate Object ("Satellite" - 2400' r) and Shapechangeing into something with "Greater Teleport at Will" as a (Su) ability. How many Magic Missile scrolls you think they could carry before they're completely encumbered? :smallsmile:

In 5 days of doing this, they could literally check an entire hemisphere.

Now, of course, debating magic vs. tech is kind of silly because tech follows the laws of physics, while D&D magic follows the RAW + DM's rule zero. How they interact (in a D&D sense) depends on how strict the DM is with the magic and how the DM models the tech. And how they interact (in the real world)... they don't.

I agree 100%. I've been stating that since the very beginning. If a DM allows a Wish to be a limitless Wish, it's a moot point. If he's going to restrict Wishes, then that's another story.

Even so, certain things like Teleportation, Etherealness, Planar Travel and Weather Manipulation are all things that cannot be countered by Modern Tech.

illathid

2007-02-28, 08:23 PM

EE, you seem to be forgetting one important part of the wish spell.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

That is what makes Wish so powerful. But if I was faced with an imminent death, I sure as hell would use that clause to insure that it doesn't happen. Also, one only needs the divine version of Genesis to be able to gain a accelerated time demi plane, as that version doesn't have any restrictions like the arcane version.

EvilElitest

2007-03-01, 12:07 AM

This just shows me you're arguing for the sake of arguing. It's not worth my time to do that, sorry. I feel Illathid summed up well on the counter-point of relevance, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm done arguing relevance with you.

As for the code of conduct, we've both violated it, and I've no desire to do so further.

Portability, Small Group: Obviously Superior.

Portability, Large Group: Teleportation Circle + Permanency. Faster trasnport than military aircraft could every hope to replicate. You could, in theory, based on hustle movement rates, shuffle through 12 every round (120 / Min, 7,200 / Hr, 172,800 / Day) per Circle. This long-distance travel is far superior in volume and speed to what modern-day tech is even remotely capable of.

For examples of this in Literature, read John Ringo's series The Posleen War or The Council War. It's illustrated very well how permanent instantanous transport trumps spacial tranport.

Nukes are finite and all have varying yields. Plus, over time they degrade and get more and more dirty. A 1 MTn nuke from the early 70s would only have about a 10 KTn yield today. And the process to create weapons-grade materials is no short process. If you blew your wad launching all those nukes at once, you'd have a 6-month period before you had another ready. Casters replienish MUCH faster, and don't throw the world into nuclear winter - thereby killing your own people as well.

Wizards: Go Ethereal and Teleport to the Satellites and use Force Spells to knock em out of orbit. Now you're nearly crippled. Your communication, long-range recon and massive ordinate are all gone. 1 Wizard could knock out most relevant satellites in a few days - tops. If I had, as you said, 5,000 Wizards with preparation on hand, they drink a potion of etherealness, and read teleport scrolls to get up to satellites and back down. The strength of the hit doesn't really matter since they're in a void - it'll knock em off course and make them useless. Magic Missles get the job done - Force Spells affect Material Plane objects from the Ether.

The fact is, in a world with Wizards, you'd never get Satellites up in orbit to begin with... Unless they somehow found themselves in a world already up to 21st Century Tech, in which case you don't know where the Wizard(s) are, they have a long time to figure out the world (we're talking 20+ Ints here - so it will happen) and can act to cripple you before you can reasonably respond, or even figure out a target for response.

I guess that works if your General is Asmodeus and I'm living in the 9-Hells. But we're not discussing the Blood War here. That's a bit of an unrealistic stretch. And with no class levels they're still 18 HD + 8 LA = L26 ECL. Does that mean I can have my Cohort be a Divine Rank 20 Deity with only 18 Class Levels?? Please! Just joking about that makes me feel dirty.

Again, this just shows you're more interested in having an argument and saying you can win than actually listening and evaluating what someone has to say. Even after my statements you're arguing from the same angle of exaggerated (over-the-top) examples that just begin to border on silly. Armies of Pit Fiends? A Hundred-Thousand Nukes?

As I said, I'm done arguing relevance. And I think I'm done discussing the whole Magic v. Tech as well... At least in this thread. I'll probably post if it's in a new thread with multiple contributors, but I won't just have more back and forth here. It's pointless.

If it helps you sleep better at night to consider this a "win" - by all means do so. :smallwink:

Hey your back. And still jumping to conclusions. Right one point at a time.

This just shows me you're arguing for the sake of arguing. It's not worth my time to do that, sorry. I feel Illathid summed up well on the counter-point of relevance, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm done arguing relevance with you.

hey i countered Illathid's point. As for you, if you give up fine, but then you just admit i am right. Sorry

As for the code of conduct, we've both violated it, and I've no desire to do so further.

On this thread? Not I.

Portability, Small Group: Obviously Superior.

Portability, Large Group: Teleportation Circle + Permanency. Faster trasnport than military aircraft could every hope to replicate. You could, in theory, based on hustle movement rates, shuffle through 12 every round (120 / Min, 7,200 / Hr, 172,800 / Day) per Circle. This long-distance travel is far superior in volume and speed to what modern-day tech is even remotely capable of.

Ok let me explian it again. How many casters do you have in this nation? This is not the 20 level 20's, this is your adverage magic world. And even if the permency idea works, which I am not sure it does (can somebody check that, i don't have my 3.5 book at this house) even so, you can only go to places you've been to. SO you transporting a single wizard, yeah it works. But how about an army? Or surrplies? Or weapons. And you forget the most important thing. If i capture a guy who comes though that teleport way, i can find out where it is. Then nuke it. Simple.

For examples of this in Literature, read John Ringo's series The Posleen War or The Council War. It's illustrated very well how permanent instantanous transport trumps spacial tranport.

I will do so, but might i ask if it is relevent to D&D? Because magic in some other sytem would be a different story. Harry Potter magic vs. Tech is enough story.

Nukes are finite and all have varying yields. Plus, over time they degrade and get more and more dirty. A 1 MTn nuke from the early 70s would only have about a 10 KTn yield today. And the process to create weapons-grade materials is no short process. If you blew your wad launching all those nukes at once, you'd have a 6-month period before you had another ready. Casters replienish MUCH faster, and don't throw the world into nuclear winter - thereby killing your own people as well.

yes because everybody knows i will attack you with outdated weapontry. The US has enough nukes stocked up to wipe out most of your nations. What spell can you do that my nukes can't do? We are talking modern nukes. Sure i would very likely cause a nuclear winter, but if i am using nukes in the first place, then i am most likely quite nuts in the first place. By the time i die of Nuclear winter, i have won.

Wizards: Go Ethereal and Teleport to the Satellites and use Force Spells to knock em out of orbit. Now you're nearly crippled. Your communication, long-range recon and massive ordinate are all gone. 1 Wizard could knock out most relevant satellites in a few days - tops. If I had, as you said, 5,000 Wizards with preparation on hand, they drink a potion of etherealness, and read teleport scrolls to get up to satellites and back down. The strength of the hit doesn't really matter since they're in a void - it'll knock em off course and make them useless. Magic Missles get the job done - Force Spells affect Material Plane objects from the Ether.
The fact is, in a world with Wizards, you'd never get Satellites up in orbit to begin with... Unless they somehow found themselves in a world already up to 21st Century Tech, in which case you don't know where the Wizard(s) are, they have a long time to figure out the world (we're talking 20+ Ints here - so it will happen) and can act to cripple you before you can reasonably respond, or even figure out a target for response.

Ok a few points wrong here.
1. How the hell do your people even know their satellites up there? My guys don't understand your magic, and i would guess you would not understand modern tech. Hell, you most likely would think it is some sort of magic. Even if you find it, do you know what it does.
2. where the hell would you get a map? Just by the by, becuase you will not know where your going. Hell, if you screw up once, then you lost in space, and not in the "magic school bus" way.
3. I would think that these would be two countries in the same globe, or the real life earth is connected via portal to your magic world. If the second, then i am even more likely to nuke the hell out of you.
4. Worst comes to worst you destroy the satellitis, i can (A put more up. I have modern produtivity. A very good map will have to be a very good map of that perticuler area of space. (B) make do without. I can use old fashion means of communication, better still than your mid evil stuff. Your magic spells are only a few times per day, i can keep my tech going for ages.

I guess that works if your General is Asmodeus and I'm living in the 9-Hells. But we're not discussing the Blood War here. That's a bit of an unrealistic stretch. And with no class levels they're still 18 HD + 8 LA = L26 ECL. Does that mean I can have my Cohort be a Divine Rank 20 Deity with only 18 Class Levels?? Please! Just joking about that makes me feel dirty.

Over the top? Unrealstic. Yes, and you get unlimitied spells? OH i forgot, if you do it, it must make perfect sense. Look, you can't make a demi plane that gives you unlimitied spells. You might steal one from a god or something, but that is very rare, and not relevent to the point of the thread. My pit fiend idea is demstrating how you could abuse this argument with irrelevent details. If you read the meaning of my post you might understand. Or maybe you are like Miko, and can't detect Sarcastic statments.

Again, this just shows you're more interested in having an argument and saying you can win than actually listening and evaluating what someone has to say. Even after my statements you're arguing from the same angle of exaggerated (over-the-top) examples that just begin to border on silly. Armies of Pit Fiends? A Hundred-Thousand Nukes?

Of the two of us, I have not shown any signs of being a Hypocrite. I have been arguing the same point this entire time. yeah i have been arguing on this post before we started this back and forth. i will say this upfront, i don't argue for something i don't belive in withoug saying so earlier. You have can't seem to show any real points that can't be countered, you don't answer to my counters, you evade the points of my statments, you go off on irrelevant issues such as having unlimitied spells, you ether refuse to or don't understand the defination of relvant to the point of the thread, and come up with dubious arguements for both you magic vs. Tech debeat and your spell combos used to destroys massive amounts of people. You also shown a twisted view of milatary tatics. You avoid anything that hurts your cause, but you are quite willing to call me two faced. Now i know i am being rude an i apoligize but i will make note now that you can call be many things, but liar is not one of them. If you want to argue with me that is fine, but at least use valid points, not the same elusive repeats of earlier statments. I tire of repeating the same thing over and over again because you can't or won't adress a pont. Oh and the US has about a hundred thousand nuclear weapons all told, give or take a few hundred.

As I said, I'm done arguing relevance. And I think I'm done discussing the whole Magic v. Tech as well... At least in this thread. I'll probably post if it's in a new thread with multiple contributors, but I won't just have more back and forth here. It's pointless.

Sure, i will start a magic vs. tech thread on Thurs day (tomorrow) at 4:00 New York Time. See you then. As for the back and forth and arguing relevence, fine leave if you want, but you still have not Proven your point. Why, because i can counter every single one of your points. If it was pointless, then why did you come back after you said you'd leave. Or for that matter, why even bother arguing in the first place if you are ready to simple leave? You can preach maturity, but if you can't even argue on stable ground the point is moot.

If it helps you sleep better at night to consider this a "win" - by all means do so. :smallwink:[/QUOTE]

I don't need ego boast from an arguement were one side would rather back out than argue. It is a cheap victory.
As for illathid, you can't use wish for something that powerful, unless a god is helping you. And even for other tasks, their is a good chance of being destroyed.
from,
EE

elliott20

2007-03-01, 12:33 PM

No, but I can imagine seven Samurai warriors doing it. I even have a movie of them doing it.
that was against 40 brigands, in a small village, with all the villagers helping

illathid

2007-03-01, 01:10 PM

Yes, you can Wish for something that powerful. There is no NO upper limit to the spell other than what individual DM's might place on it. By the RAW one could wish for potentially anything.

EvilElitest

2007-03-01, 01:34 PM

Yes, you can Wish for something that powerful. There is no NO upper limit to the spell other than what individual DM's might place on it. By the RAW one could wish for potentially anything.

You know what, i can't really argue with that. Why? Because you are right it is possible. But also, making all the hundred thousand nukes that the US has turn into flowers would be a major wish. And so, well. Depends on the DM. Most DM's i know (about 11, 12 if you count me) would not allow something that powerful. I might in my games, but it depends on the source of th wish. The spell wish, no, or maybe 1 in 150. But greated by something very powerful, like a god, different story. It all depends on the DM.
from,
EE

elliott20

2007-03-01, 04:20 PM

it took me an entire day to read this thread and the only thing I can remember is that people really need to define what the hell they mean by "irrelevant" and something about 50 million Chinese people and 20 L29 American wizards.

okpokalypse

2007-03-01, 04:31 PM

"Portability, Large Group: Teleportation Circle + Permanency. Faster trasnport than military aircraft could every hope to replicate. You could, in theory, based on hustle movement rates, shuffle through 12 every round (120 / Min, 7,200 / Hr, 172,800 / Day) per Circle. This long-distance travel is far superior in volume and speed to what modern-day tech is even remotely capable of."

Ok let me explian it again. How many casters do you have in this nation? This is not the 20 level 20's, this is your adverage magic world. And even if the permency idea works, which I am not sure it does (can somebody check that, i don't have my 3.5 book at this house) even so, you can only go to places you've been to. SO you transporting a single wizard, yeah it works. But how about an army? Or surrplies? Or weapons. And you forget the most important thing. If i capture a guy who comes though that teleport way, i can find out where it is. Then nuke it. Simple.

Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm)

Specifically mentions Permanency in the description. Also, to learn of a place I can scry it. That's in the FAQ. So there's Nowhere I can't set up a teleportation circle to with research.

And being it's 5'r (10' d), I can send large creatures through, and march in 2 units abreast all day. Do the math. Hustling through, 170,000+ a day. I can send through supplies carried by those going through. And I can easily make the core network in a location you could never get to. Somewhere only I'm familiar with, far underground, which is just a transportation network via Teleportation Circles. Tech today can't get accurate reading more than 1 Mile underground. How'd you find it if it's 5 Miles down, or in the heart of a dormant volcano, or under the crust of the earth at the bottom of the Atlantic?

And as for finding / capturing ppl coming through... How do you even know where they're coming out of? For all you know the Teleportation Circle is dumping out in an old abandoned church in Alexandria VA (Yay, Die-Hard II Reference). I wait for the first 10,000 to get through (about an hour and a half) - Arcane Mirage covers it from observation. I have high-level Divine Casters start "Control Weather" to bring about hurricane winds, stifling any possibility of Air Support. How do you stop that stream of enemies now without killing 5 Million + of your own people?

You'd scramble to get carriers in the Potomac. You'd have tanks rolling up and down I-95. And by the time you get there, the place would be a ruin. All the high-levellers would have left (save one), and you'd have to fight an entrenched enemy (who is now using your automatic weapons) with mid-level Magic Support. That is, unless you Nuked your own Capital City with you in it.

I will do so, but might i ask if it is relevent to D&D? Because magic in some other sytem would be a different story. Harry Potter magic vs. Tech is enough story.

The Council Wars is very much D&D Like with some Future-Tech mixed in. The Posleen Wars are Modern/Post-Modern - but their use of teleportation is the key factor. It completely changes the way war and trade works, and make airborne units expressly short-range transport and/or weapon deployment.

Regardless, they're both excellent series.

Sure i would very likely cause a nuclear winter, but if i am using nukes in the first place, then i am most likely quite nuts in the first place. By the time i die of Nuclear winter, i have won.

You haven't won because Magic would enable those wielding it to leave to another, non-radioactive world, while you're destroying your own. You've done nothing insofar as burned down my house. But I can get another. Actually, after you're dead, and all the powers of tech forgotten, I'll just make a very carefully worded wish to clean up the radiation. Magic is not bound by physics or reality.

1. How the hell do your people even know their satellites up there? My guys don't understand your magic, and i would guess you would not understand modern tech. Hell, you most likely would think it is some sort of magic. Even if you find it, do you know what it does.

Well, they're living in a world with Tech, and they've presumably got Ints up in the 40+ Range at L20 - so I think it can be rather safely assumed. After all, buying a book to learn up on how communications work is pretty dern easy. And they'd be smart enough to know it's not magic. Astronomy isn't magic, and they're well aware of orbital paths of plants and such.

2. where the hell would you get a map? Just by the by, becuase you will not know where your going. Hell, if you screw up once, then you lost in space, and not in the "magic school bus" way.

Already addressed in a previous post.

3. I would think that these would be two countries in the same globe, or the real life earth is connected via portal to your magic world. If the second, then i am even more likely to nuke the hell out of you.

I don't get what you're expressing here, or the relevance. If it's yet another scenario, I don't want to bother.

4. Worst comes to worst you destroy the satellitis, i can (A) put more up. I have modern produtivity. A very good map will have to be a very good map of that perticuler area of space. (B) make do without. I can use old fashion means of communication, better still than your mid evil stuff. Your magic spells are only a few times per day, i can keep my tech going for ages.

Do you even have an inkling of how much goes into putting a satellite into orbit? I do. It's a minimum 6 months for a very experienced and large team + contractors and launching rites / etc... If I could take all your satellites down in a few days, you're done. By the time you get enough up to cover just your own airspace, I could knock em all back down in a day.

And with the Nukes we have today, and all that have been decommissioned over time, only a handful would function without satellite communication. You'd have to be loading them up in B-52s (Cause Stealth's won't work either), and praying you're not being scryed, because...

1. Plane Drops Nuke..
2. Wizard Teleports to Nuke.
3. Wizard Polymorphs Nuke into a 5 lb Metalliod-Rock.

Based on Poly Any Object, the Duration based on Relevance to Kingdom, Class and Intelligence, it's a Permanent duration. Then, after I've collected a few this way.

1. Wizard Teleports to Your Capital.
2. Wizard Drops Rock(s), Dispels (It's a Nuke Again, ready to go off)
3. Wizard Teleports Out.

Your Capital City is detroyed.

And just to preemptively combat the "I'll drop 1,000 Nukes!" concept, what if every one of my Wizzies have a Magic Item with Command Word Teleport, Command Word Poly any Object and Perma Fly? Sure, it'd cost about 500k GP - but doesn't that essentially make for unlimited movement / nuke-busting? And it's based on the Item Creation RAW. That's 1 Nuke ended per 12 Seconds, Per Wizard. Objectively obtainable.

Over the top? Unrealstic. Yes, and you get unlimitied spells? OH i forgot, if you do it, it must make perfect sense. Look, you can't make a demi plane that gives you unlimitied spells. You might steal one from a god or something, but that is very rare, and not relevent to the point of the thread.

The only way to prevent such is through Rule-0. It's in the RAW. You don't like it. You'd Rule-0 it. But never-the-less, it's there.

"Again, this just shows you're more interested in having an argument and saying you can win than actually listening and evaluating what someone has to say. Even after my statements you're arguing from the same angle of exaggerated (over-the-top) examples that just begin to border on silly. Armies of Pit Fiends? A Hundred-Thousand Nukes?"

Of the two of us, I have not shown any signs of being a Hypocrite. I have been arguing the same point this entire time. yeah i have been arguing on this post before we started this back and forth. i will say this upfront, i don't argue for something i don't belive in withoug saying so earlier. You have can't seem to show any real points that can't be countered, you don't answer to my counters, you evade the points of my statments, you go off on irrelevant issues such as having unlimitied spells, you ether refuse to or don't understand the defination of relvant to the point of the thread, and come up with dubious arguements for both you magic vs. Tech debeat and your spell combos used to destroys massive amounts of people. You also shown a twisted view of milatary tatics. You avoid anything that hurts your cause, but you are quite willing to call me two faced. Now i know i am being rude ... but i will make note now that you can call be many things, but liar is not one of them. If you want to argue with me that is fine, but at least use valid points, not the same elusive repeats of earlier statments. I tire of repeating the same thing over and over again because you can't or won't adress a pont. Oh and the US has about a hundred thousand nuclear weapons all told, give or take a few hundred.

1. I never called you a hyopcrite, and looking at the text YOU quoted in reference to this rant - I don't see it having anything to do with what you're saying.

2. Seriously, read the rules of posting. I've underlined your infractions. Bolded the one that is labelled a "Mea Culpa" offense which often gets two warnings. Reign it in. This isn't worth getting this worked up over.

3. I will ONLY discuss non-subjective points. Such as the next...

4. World Total Nuclear Weapons (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/columns/default.aspx?Article=nukes&page=tamimhome) - The WORLD doesn't have 100,000 nuclear Weapons as you seem to insist. This list (via link) was assembled in 2004, and since then no countries (other than N. Korea) have been commissioning Nuclear Weapons per UN anti-nuclear resolutions, in fact, many have be de-commissioned. The World-Total is just over 20,000, the US controls just over half of that.

okpokalypse

2007-03-01, 04:32 PM

elliott20

2007-03-01, 04:59 PM

Foxer

2007-03-01, 06:02 PM

elliott20

2007-03-01, 06:13 PM

I was thinking about paratroops. Rings of feather fall and invisibility, amulets of natural armour and wands of magic missile, cure light wounds and bags of holding stuffed with alchemists' fire and thunderstones. If I read the NPC class "expert" right, they can have UMD without needing the rogue levels. Say Warrior 3 / Expert 3 (given high natural stats). If you can drop them behind enemy lines from a flying ship or similar you've got your special forces right there.
Or if the assignment is important enough, why bother paratrooping? Just teleport them straight in!

But then again, it all depends upon the defensive set up too. I have no doubt that if magical warfare becomes common place, then magical defense should be too. As of right now, D&D is HORRIBLE at handling magical defense. Other than giving individuals with high SRs, there is nothing that prevents magical affects on enacting in a certain area except the all encompassing AMF, which really sucks anyway.

Foxer

2007-03-01, 06:26 PM

Or if the assignment is important enough, why bother paratrooping? Just teleport them straight in!
But then again, it all depends upon the defensive set up too. I have no doubt that if magical warfare becomes common place, then magical defense should be too. As of right now, D&D is HORRIBLE at handling magical defense. Other than giving individuals with high SRs, there is nothing that prevents magical affects on enacting in a certain area except the all encompassing AMF, which really sucks anyway.

A bit like air combat circa 1930, then. "The bomber will always get through" - the only defence is deterrence. If you send invisible rogues to arson my city, I do the same to you.

EvilElitest

2007-03-01, 07:33 PM

but okay, I'm going to take a stab at formulating possible scenarios that magic would have on combat.

the first factor is dependant upon whether or not magic has been institutionalized and dissected like the way we have with science and all that. Remember, while magic is held by only those with the gift to perform it, magical items can empower even the most mundane soldier into a decent fighitng force.

If magic is an institution that has been ingrained into people's everyday lives, it is probably not too unreasonable to assume that there will be specialists and artificers dedicated to creating low level magical trinkets to help aid the battle.

Field medics will probably carry wands of cure minor wounds to prevent people from dying, squad leaders are probably going to carry all sorts of items depending upon the mission they must take. If they're mission is to stall the enemy long enough to allow another unit to get by, maybe the squad leader will have an item with entangle on it. If the squad's mission is to scout the area, items with divination and scrying powers such as arcane eye would be appropriate. (and you can almost guarantee that there'd be a rogue or ranger in that squad)

armies would also be leaner, at least in terms of invasion forces. Occupation forces while still might be of considerable size, they will probably not be nearly as large as they traditionally need to be. I mean, if you have people like bards that can help quelch the angry local populous, then there's really no need into bully them and causing ill will upon the new regime.

however, depending upon how magical the denizens of the world are and how common magical beasts are to come by, you'll also get different compositions.

You're going to have your tanking units. And these are not going to be just barbarians with lots of hit points. These are going to be ogres, giants, and other units of large creatures that can take a lot of raw punishment.

You're going to have your aerial units in the form of dragons, harpies, pegasi, etc, trying to establish air superiority before they turn around to rain death on the ground forces.

you're going to have artillery/bombarding units, like say, mid level spell casters or a rogue with enough ranks in UMD using a wand of fireball. (or if you want, hulking hurlers throwing anything they can get their hands on, boulders, boulders on fire, halflings, halflings on fire, etc)

You're gonna have your comm units, in the form of arcane diviners, oracles, and scouts for physical verification. Chances are, the diviners are going to gather info using their magic, but when in doubt, they will send out a scout to verify what is there. Said scout will probably have all sorts neato gadgets to use. (i.e. amulet of invis, ring of jumping) or hell, they might just get a druid to polymorph into a bird or something, cast invis, silence, and let the druid fly out.

more to come.

See, this is how you do a stable argument. Thank you very much. As for Mr. Poke (i'm sorry but i get tiried of spelling that again and again.) I have suffered from a case of insombia and i am to tiried to go though you post bit by bit and counter each point. So i will do it tommorow. However, i am starting a new thread on magic vs. Tech in half an hour, so please check it out everyone, because i will agree with mr. Poke on one thing, the magic vs. tech is dilluteing the whole point of this discussion. As for relevence, lets take a step back here

To prove mr. poke's point, he need

To come up with a situation where a small group of PCs (like 20 level 20) can destroy a large army with only their ablities as PCs (So no, you don't get a demi plane that gives you infinite spells). He also must survieve this encounter with the said army (currently 50,million soilder of about 5th level in warrior, but that could change) without any real losses other than magic charges (like wands, scrolls, ect) and hit points (apart from death of course.)
To prove my point i need to
Come up with a situation where a massive army overwhelmes are force of PCs or at least inconviences them. Making the PC's leave their counry counts as a victory, because the miltary force that drives you away is stilll quite relevant. Killing at least one member is relevant. Destroying massive amounts of land is relevant. Killing inocents is relevant. Forcing the PC's to devote weeks or months to wipe out this force is relevant. The only way you can prove you point mr. Poke is if you wipe out the entire army with little to no loss of exp and little to no loss of lives or land. Why do you think is am getting so angry here?

As for you Magic vs. tech, just a few points.
1. what i ment by teh hundred thousand was the amount of nuclear weapons of any kind in the country, whitch i summed up as nukes. When it comes to just bombs, US still has 5,000. Even so, if they are all launched against you in a single day, they pretty much defeats your nation.
2. You would not be in a modern world, as that gives your side both magic and tech. This is not "Harry Potter wizards vs. the US". This is a standard D&D world vs. US. So no, you would not know about are space program a first and how would you find out. Or about the nukes for that matter. When the strange flying machines are comming over your city, how will you stop them? Even if you take out some planes, can you mages take out teh entire US air force?
3. yes you were right about the space program part, but by the time you even find out about our space program, we might have at least 1 back up.
4. You can't move a whole nation into the etheral plane. Even if you could move a large amount, you would be exposed to the many dangers that dwell their. Very risky.
5. That idea of teh wizard stoping the nuke is absurd. Even if you somehow knew what it was, i doubt you could telport up their (1 turn) cast fly (one turn) then cast you pollymorph spell before the other planes in the fleet shoot you down with machine guys. Flying guys are a little scary. Or before the A-bomb hits the city. Even if you get one nuke, when the shape changed rock hit the ground, the other planes in the fleet will simpely drop normal bombs. By normal, i mean causing massive destruciton. Even if your wizard survieved the 5 round exposer to the machine gun fire and avoiding being bombed, would he be able to find his shapechanged nuke in all the ruble? And what about all the other nukes that my force will be launching? I don't think you would have enough mages to stop 5,000 nukes. And sence that would be my first move, would you have your spell prepared to do so.
7. You were right about the telport circle. But any good soilder would notice that large amounts of troops are coming from a certain place. Sence permancy is not only a high level spell, but it costs exp, you could not cast that many and certainlly not enough to cover you entire land. A plane may not be able to go as fast a teleport, but it can very well fly anywere in the country, not just the two places linked by the circle. And that presumes that you can get your army their.
See you on the next thread, i will write up the rules and then we can start the rest of the argument. I will counter your other points later
from,
EE

crazedloon

2007-03-01, 08:21 PM

As far as tech vs. magic it is far too hard to actually say which is better because in all likelihood each side would have access to both magic and tech. Now in my opinion if it came down to 2 separate countries who "magically" (oh the irony) did not interact at all and each evolved one with magic the other with tech in my opinion the tech would win overall. Becuase a Basic "magical" societys army will consist of your fighter types which will be easyly mowed down by gunfire and the few wizards that will be involved will be to busy saving themsleves and a few of their comrades or will be just not evough to actualy make a dent in the tech army.

Another big thing is if you have 2 isolated societies one based of magic they will have no clue what a car is. I can see a fighter/barbarian charging a car believing it to be some sort of beast. Guess who wins that fight :smallwink: . Your plans ignore all cultural shock.

now that was short and really I could make a longer post with more logical arguments as to why tech will probably win out I really cant get my ideas together right now. I just want to state that everyone when they argue go all out and try to compare extremes i.e. nuke vs. wish you should actually be looking at what a real war is won through and that is the normal menial men i.e. guy with gun vs. guy with armor and sword.

And now for some amusment her is a little story some one some where made up that is somewhat related (the harry potter comment reminded me of it) For those of you who dont know the universe of Warhammer 40K its a futuristic society and well Im sure you all know harry potter

To; Lord-Inquisitor Von Grimm, Ordo Hereticus
From; Inquisitor Bigotin, Ordo Hereticus
Subject; Inquisitorial Purge BD-4992 "The Hogwarts Purge"
Transmitted; Inquisitorial Fortress, Bethor VIII
Transmitter; Astropath Ginla
Receiver; Astropath Wulesh

Salutations Lord!
I am pleased to report that the heretical witch-coven, the sect known as "Hogwarts School of Wizardry and Witchcraft" has been eliminated, and every member of this vile cult has been cleansed with fire and sword.
Accompanied by five squads of veteran Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, two-hundred local militia, a dozen arco-flagellants, two Penitent Engines, and three squads drawn from the Order of the Holy Nimbus, we began our assault upon the fortress of the enemy at dawn's first light. Although the castle was hidden from normal sight by a myriad of hexes and foul enchantments, these wards were easily bypassed thanks to the psyk-out strike launched by the Persecution, and we were able to begin the assault.
We stormed the grounds, suffering only minor casualties from various self-defence spell-traps that the enemy had placed within the grounds. These traps were disposed of quickly by my cadre of sanctioned psykers, and we able to press on.
We were soon accosted by a heavily-haired mutant of exceptional height and bulk (see pict attachments 00-03) upon approaching the castle's main portcullis. He was accompanied by a variety of abominable creatures (pict attachments 04-16), gruesome beasts which looked like twisted parodies of ancient creatures of legend- such beasts included a disturbing horse/eagle hybrid and assorted scorpion/crab-like creatures, each one the size of a small landcar, amongst others. The large mutant challenged us in an accent I did not recognise, but no doubt it was speaking in some daemonic tongue. I ordered the attack. The creatures of the mutant beastmaster took a heavy toll on the local militia and my Stormtroopers, but our numbers and weaponry were superior, and the Sisters of the Holy Nimbus swiftly brought down the creatures with bolter, melta and flamer fire. The giant mutant beastmaster possessed incredible strength and endurance, and managed to inflict crippling damage on one of the Penitent Engines and kill and seriously wound twenty-three militia, Sisters and Stormtroopers before it was brought down by the holy rage of the arco-flagellants (three of which perished due to lethal combat stimm overdose- in death, they have been granted His Forgiveness).
We consolidated our position and set up a strong foothold whilst our chirurgeons and Sisters Hospitaller provided healing for the wounded and mercy for the dying.
To the south, I glimpsed an oval structure that appeared to resemble a standard Imperial amphitheatre or coliseum (pict attachments 17-20). Six tall poles, topped with huge hoops, were situated on this "pitch", three at each end. I theorised that the cult held some form of diabolical rituals or ceremonies there, and that the hoops were utilised in these.
No sooner had our wounded been comforted and aided by our medical staff, the witches of the Hogwarts School appeared. I was at first shocked at the average age of our foe; the youngest seemed to be ten years of standard, the oldest no more than seventeen. They were led by five older psykers (see accompanying pict-files 21-25), and they outnumbered us nearly two to one. At first, I foolishly thought that fighting children would be no challenge, but I chastised myself, remembering that each of these younglings was an illegal psyker, taught by their council of the older rogue psykers.
The eldest of the rogue psykers (pict 21), whom I presumed to be the leader, stepped forward, and I saw the malevolence and hatred in his eyes that spoke of a man driven insane by the daemonic power which he wielded. He personally addressed me, giving his name as Albus Dumbledore, but I did not wish to bandy words with a heretic and a witch, so before he could speak any further and bewitch me, I disposed of him with my stake crossbow and gave the order for my force to attack.
Pandemonium erupted immediately. The younger psykers were herded back into the castle by two of the "teachers"; a wrinkled midget (pict/subject 24) and a portly woman bedecked with scraps of local flora (pict/subject 25). The older children retaliated, led by the other two psykers, a crone-faced woman (pict/subject 22) and a cadaverous man with long black greasy hair (pict/subject 23).
The psykers launched a variety of psychic attacks that killed and/or otherwise incapicitated my warriors. I saw some terrible things. Two Stormtroopers stumbled and fell to the ground, as if their limbs had ceased to function. Sister-Palatine Lucresia was transmuted in a second from a proud warrior of the Adepta Sororitas to a pewter goblet. Local militia either burst into laughter so violent that their blood vessels burst, or were inflated like carnival balloons. Arco-flagellants slipped and collapsed as the ground beneath them was turned to ice. I remained unscathed, thanks to the protection offered by my hexagrammic wards and my accompanying sanctioned and penitent psykers.
I rallied my troops and pressed the attack. Many of the child psykers were slain by the accurate firepower of my Stormtroopers and the Sisters, and they fled in craven dissarray, only to be picked off at the leisure of my warriors and I. Subject 23 was bisected by Sister Superior Paminda's eviscerator, whilst Subject 22 met the Emperor's Judgement at the claws of the Penitent Engine.
We advanced into the castle, gunning down resistance where we found it. Subjects 24 and 25 were killed as they defended the younger heretics, many of whom surrendered after the deaths of their "teachers". I tasked Stormtrooper Lieutenant Virone with prisoner detail, and he and his squad set about dealing with the captured children, taking them to the evac zone and transferring them to the null-cells aboard the Persecution, where they would await interrogation and execution.
We finally came across the last point of resistance in the great hall of the castle, a room so seeped in obscene witchery that I permitted only the Sisters and my personal staff to accompany me inside- I could not risk the corruption of the Stormtroopers.
At the end of the hall stood four figures (picts 26-29), all of them young psykers. Three of the psykers were male, and one was female. They began a last-ditch defence, but their efforts were in vain. The blonde, arrogant-looking male (pict/subject 27) was reduced to ashes by my gun-servitor's plasma cannon, and the freckled, red-haired male (pict/subject 2 took a trio of bolter shots to the chest. The female, a young girl with long, curly brown hair (pict/subject 26) surrendered to us, and I immediately placed an inhibitor upon her (I have since transferred Subject 26 to my own staff, where she now serves as a penitent psyker).
The final male, a boy with thick black hair, spectacles, and a curious scar on his forehead (pict/subject 29) was monstrously powerful for one so young, and claimed the lives of four Sisters, my two gun-servitors, and Interrogator Delaun before he was stopped. As Interrogator Tesze held him in the jaws of her mancatcher, I prepared my power stake for the killing strike. Subject 29 looked at me frantically and cried out; "You idiot muggle! If you kill me, Voldemort will return!"
I presumed that "muggle" was some sort of profane cult slang. I had no idea who "Voldemort" was/is, but I assume that the witch's babble was a desperate and useless plea to prevent me from dispensing justice. I paid his rambling no heed, and impaled his heart with my sacred power stake.
Our mission a success, we ransacked the castle for any heretical items that would need to be immediately destroyed to prevent them from corrupting the servants of the Emperor any longer. We found all manner of wands, ingredients, spellbooks and scrolls, and curious orb-shaped relics (picts 30-32; note the curious wings that adorn the tiny golden ball in pict 32). All was put to the cleansing flame.
Upon our return to the Persecution, I gave the order for Captain Yevonce to begin the orbital bombardment of the castle, completely obliterating the vile structure. As we made warp transition to Bethor VIII, I and my staff began the interrogation of the young witches.
My apologies for the lack of transcripts at this current moment, but I regret to announce that both my scribe-skull and auto-savant are both out of ink and parchment, and Interrogator Tesze has been forced to transcribe the interrogations from the various vox-thief recordings. The transcripts will be with you shortly, my Lord.
The stain of the Hogwarts coven has been wiped from the Emperor's glorious realm.

Your Servant,
Inquisitor Predujis Bigotin

((tech vs magic tech wins :smalltongue: ))

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:34 AM

I'm breaking this into parts...

Part I

As for Mr. Poke

I will request that if you can't take the time to spell my SN correctly, you stop using bastardizations of it. It's not that hard. A truncation like Okpok will suffice, but just jumbling a few letters to be a wise-ass is pretty childish, and quite honestly, rude.

How would you enjoy someone referring to you as Mr. Teste?

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:35 AM

Part II

To prove mr. poke's point, he need

To come up with a situation where a small group of PCs (like 20 level 20) can destroy a large army with only their ablities as PCs (So no, you don't get a demi plane that gives you infinite spells).

RAW man, RAW. Accept it and move on already.

He also must survieve this encounter with the said army (currently 50,million soilder of about 5th level in warrior, but that could change) without any real losses other than magic charges (like wands, scrolls, ect) and hit points (apart from death of course.)

Would it suffice to take on a form impervious to what you can do? Not to be repetitive, but you can't get past DR 20 / Magic since you have nothing Magic. Fire Immunity makes me Immune to incendiary weapons. And when something significant is coming at me, I've got Celerity / Teleport to leave. How do you injure that? Seriously? You've yet to supply a rebuttal to this.

Also, do you take into account economics? Cause man, a L20 Cleric & Psion working together, going onto Wall Street and the Cleric casting Lion's Roar (Widened) to encompass a 240' Radius (Sonic Bypasses Harness) and utilizing DMM Maximize does 80 Pts of Structural Damage. IE. Buildings come a tumbling down, and your entire economy is ground to a halt. They're also only there for 6-seconds.

What about doing the same thing to the Hoover Dam? That takes out most of the West-Coasts' power, will ruin all northern irrigation in the Mountain region, and flood out most of your other hydro-electric plants all the way down to Arizona.

Hurricanes popping up by all your oil platforms. Fireballs wreaking havok on your refineries. No more Fuel = No more Tanks / Planes.

How about an Earthquake deep on the San Andreas? (Meld Into Stone, Earthquake, Word of Recall) Or better yet, Yellowstone! Yeah, a nearly Million Square mile Super-Volcano! Wake that baby up!

And they can get all the information on these locations and vulnerabilities from a Charm Person or two on the right people. Ain't Magic Grand!

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:36 AM

Part III

To prove my point i need to
Come up with a situation where a massive army overwhelmes are force of PCs or at least inconviences them. Making the PC's leave their counry counts as a victory, because the miltary force that drives you away is stilll quite relevant. Killing at least one member is relevant. Destroying massive amounts of land is relevant. Killing inocents is relevant. Forcing the PC's to devote weeks or months to wipe out this force is relevant. The only way you can prove you point mr. Poke is if you wipe out the entire army with little to no loss of exp and little to no loss of lives or land. Why do you think is am getting so angry here?

I think the above sums it up. What do you do when the whole midwest from the Rockies to the Mississippi erupt in pyroclastic flows, The West Coast drops into the sea, your economic center is destroyed, you have no fuel and your capital is destroyed - in the span of, what? Hours? Minutes?

Again, I'm assuming that this entire D&D Nation isn't just popping out of thin air, ignorant and stupid to the world around them. They're aware of their world, and while they may not utilize Tech in any way, they are aware it exists.

If you don't like that, I just Dominate the ruler. War's off guys! We're at peace! *yawn* That's actually the first thing they do in reality. If you control the commander in chief, the rest is trivial. And there's no way they can spot a scrying / greater invis / teleporting mage. Just no way.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:48 AM

Part IV

As for you Magic vs. tech, just a few points.
1. what i ment by teh hundred thousand was the amount of nuclear weapons of any kind in the country, whitch i summed up as nukes. When it comes to just bombs, US still has 5,000. Even so, if they are all launched against you in a single day, they pretty much defeats your nation.

Umm, those ARE the total amounts of nuclear weapons. 10,500. That's what the US has. Actually it's less now. By 2012, we'll only have 4,000 if we stay in line with the Nuclear Disarmament policies we've agreed to.

Now what Nukes aren't bombs/missiles? How else do you deploy something that has a nuclear yield? Are you talking about the infamous "suitcase nukes" - of which I think the US went on record stating they made like 30.

There have never been 100,000 nukes at any time in the US. At it's peak during the Cold War the US had about 30,000. You need to get your facts straight.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:49 AM

Part V

2. You would not be in a modern world, as that gives your side both magic and tech. This is not "Harry Potter wizards vs. the US". This is a standard D&D world vs. US. So no, you would not know about are space program a first and how would you find out. Or about the nukes for that matter. When the strange flying machines are comming over your city, how will you stop them? Even if you take out some planes, can you mages take out teh entire US air force?

I think that's a ludicrous concept. If that's the case, then the US has no idea about these peoples either. No idea they're capable of Magic. They don't just go launching Nukes as a 1st response - they spy for months, see that the people are middle-age farmer types mostly, and then march in tanks & troops.

Of course, by the time the recon is gained, I've already dominated your leader, so it's a moot point. Or better yet, assumed his identity with one of my high level mages. It's trivial to do so.

As for reality, and what such a D&D nation would know...

Gnomes in the D&D World already make (redimentary and strange) flying machines. I think you'd be surprised at how much knowledge people from the middle ages possessed. Maybe not the serfs and peasants - but those educated people. Think Aristotle, DesCartes, DaVinci. They all all pre-moden industrial noteworthy peoples from various periods who were well aware of the concepts of flight, advanced mathematics/physics and space.

Now Imagine taking someone like DaVinci and upping his Int from an 18 (He was a Genius) to a 40. You don't think he figures out Satellites? Communication? Come on! Pre-Tech doesn't entail stupidity.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:50 AM

Part VI

3. yes you were right about the space program part, but by the time you even find out about our space program, we might have at least 1 back up.

I'm glad you've conceded this at least. And I'll even give you getting a satellite or two back up - but you'd need a whole network of satellites to have precision communications and weapons function. Military satellites have a genral reception arc of 4° 30' and a transmission arc of < 1°. That's it. That means from a geocentric orbit you'd have about 30 seconds (depending on the exact orbital speed & height) on any given 200 Mile Radius (approx), and only have access to that satellite (without others to bounce off of) for 6 hours a day at most.

Why do you think the world went all up in arms when China blew up a high-orbit satellite in a test earlier this year? Because that capability can literally cripple every modern army in the world, and the recovery time is not optimistic.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:54 AM

Part VII

4. You can't move a whole nation into the etheral plane. Even if you could move a large amount, you would be exposed to the many dangers that dwell their. Very risky.

Never said I'd do so. My L20's could hide out there though.

5. That idea of teh wizard stoping the nuke is absurd. Even if you somehow knew what it was, i doubt you could telport up their (1 turn) cast fly (one turn) then cast you pollymorph spell before the other planes in the fleet shoot you down with machine guys. Flying guys are a little scary. Or before the A-bomb hits the city.

The plane-drop bombs need to be dropped from a ceiling of at least 4 miles (> 20,000 ft). In WW-II they used a 30,000 ft ceiling. Again, this was generally considered minimum. The fall rate of 9m/s² w/ Resistance resulted in a terminal velocity of approx 335m/s. The time from release to detonation is approx 42-45 seconds from 30,000 ft. About 32 Seconds from 20,000 ft.

That's 7 (or 5) D&D Rounds. More than enough time to wait a few seconds and then...

[Round 1] Time Stop [Maximize Rod] (5 Rounds)
[Round 1a] Greater Invis, Quickened Fly
[Round 1b] Teleport to Nuke
[Round 1c] Delayed Blast Fireball the Plane
[Round 1d] Delayed Blast Fireball additional Plane
[Round 1e] Delayed Blast Fireball additional Plane
[Round 3] Polymorph Any Object [Nuke], Move Action to grab it.
[Round 3a] Celerity + Teleport Back.

18 Seconds. Nuke Gone, and 3 Planes about to experience an imminent crash... And if we're talking Level-Appropriate Wealth / Magic Items, Command Word activated effects for the Teleportation and Poly would cost less than 1/2 thier wealth allotment.

In cases where I don't want to blow a Timestop / Celerity, They'll just use Protection from Missiles :). Oh, useless machine guns they are!

Even if you get one nuke, when the shape changed rock hit the ground, the other planes in the fleet will simpely drop normal bombs. By normal, i mean causing massive destruciton. Even if your wizard survieved the 5 round exposer to the machine gun fire and avoiding being bombed, would he be able to find his shapechanged nuke in all the ruble? And what about all the other nukes that my force will be launching? I don't think you would have enough mages to stop 5,000 nukes. And sence that would be my first move, would you have your spell prepared to do so.

The Nuke was grabbed in the move action. If you want, extending on the above, Rounds 4, 5 and 6 could destroy your Capital. Or better yet, Norad. :smallwink:

elliott20

2007-03-02, 09:48 AM

can we seriously drop the 50 million commoners vs. 20 lvl 20 wizards comparison? We all have established that either extreme concepts are rather absurd and not really worth consideration.

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 12:40 PM

I'm breaking this into parts...

Part I

I will request that if you can't take the time to spell my SN correctly, you stop using bastardizations of it. It's not that hard. A truncation like Okpok will suffice, but just jumbling a few letters to be a wise-ass is pretty childish, and quite honestly, rude.

How would you enjoy someone referring to you as Mr. Teste?

Sorry, but i personally can't find some thing wrong with Mr. Poke. But if you insist i will just use Okpok from now on. And no i would know can if someboyd called me Mr. Teste. they can simple call me EE for that matter.
from,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 12:50 PM

Part II

RAW man, RAW. Accept it and move on already.

Would it suffice to take on a form impervious to what you can do? Not to be repetitive, but you can't get past DR 20 / Magic since you have nothing Magic. Fire Immunity makes me Immune to incendiary weapons. And when something significant is coming at me, I've got Celerity / Teleport to leave. How do you injure that? Seriously? You've yet to supply a rebuttal to this.

Also, do you take into account economics? Cause man, a L20 Cleric & Psion working together, going onto Wall Street and the Cleric casting Lion's Roar (Widened) to encompass a 240' Radius (Sonic Bypasses Harness) and utilizing DMM Maximize does 80 Pts of Structural Damage. IE. Buildings come a tumbling down, and your entire economy is ground to a halt. They're also only there for 6-seconds.

What about doing the same thing to the Hoover Dam? That takes out most of the West-Coasts' power, will ruin all northern irrigation in the Mountain region, and flood out most of your other hydro-electric plants all the way down to Arizona.

Hurricanes popping up by all your oil platforms. Fireballs wreaking havok on your refineries. No more Fuel = No more Tanks / Planes.

How about an Earthquake deep on the San Andreas? (Meld Into Stone, Earthquake, Word of Recall) Or better yet, Yellowstone! Yeah, a nearly Million Square mile Super-Volcano! Wake that baby up!

And they can get all the information on these locations and vulnerabilities from a Charm Person or two on the right people. Ain't Magic Grand!

Ok two thing

RAW does not allow you to make a plane that give you unlimtied surrplies of spells. Where the hell does RAW say that.

As for the rest of your post, that is concerning three casters on the offensive in a terroist manner. That will make armies irrelevant, but not just because they are casters. it is because they are terroists. A level 1 commoner with an unlimtied supple of bombs would make armies irrelevant in that situation.
Yes magic is grand in those situation, but that is just a normal champain, not a making an army irrelevant. Terroists are always had for an army to catch, so you would not employ them. Attacks like that, while quite damaging would have nothing to do with this thread because you are a terrost which renders soilder next to uselss. Look at the Iraq war. The US is losing not because of the armies strenght, but because we can't defeat a force that is using those tatics with an army. Look at the revolution in Algeria, or the Irish revolution. But that has nothing to do with PC making armies Irrelvant.

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 12:54 PM

Part III

I think the above sums it up. What do you do when the whole midwest from the Rockies to the Mississippi erupt in pyroclastic flows, The West Coast drops into the sea, your economic center is destroyed, you have no fuel and your capital is destroyed - in the span of, what? Hours? Minutes?

Again, I'm assuming that this entire D&D Nation isn't just popping out of thin air, ignorant and stupid to the world around them. They're aware of their world, and while they may not utilize Tech in any way, they are aware it exists.

If you don't like that, I just Dominate the ruler. War's off guys! We're at peace! *yawn* That's actually the first thing they do in reality. If you control the commander in chief, the rest is trivial. And there's no way they can spot a scrying / greater invis / teleporting mage. Just no way.

Wait, you seem to have three misconceptions there
1. In this situation i am not talking about Magic vs. Tech. I am talking about PC vs. Armies.
2. How the hell will you sink the west coast? That does not make sense
3. IF we did a magic vs. Tech debeat, both worlds would have to be ignorent of eachother. Why? Becuase if Tech knows about magic, they might get magic and visa versa. Tech does not get or understand magic, or magic get or understand post midevil tech.
4. You are going off topic here.
from,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 12:57 PM

Part IV

Umm, those ARE the total amounts of nuclear weapons. 10,500. That's what the US has. Actually it's less now. By 2012, we'll only have 4,000 if we stay in line with the Nuclear Disarmament policies we've agreed to.

Now what Nukes aren't bombs/missiles? How else do you deploy something that has a nuclear yield? Are you talking about the infamous "suitcase nukes" - of which I think the US went on record stating they made like 30.

There have never been 100,000 nukes at any time in the US. At it's peak during the Cold War the US had about 30,000. You need to get your facts straight.

Ok your right on that point. I was refering to weapons that use nuclear technolagy and how much we could make if we were not following the nuclear Disarmant policly. As it is, if the US goes to and uses nukes (which we have to assume in a magic vs. Tech debeate) then the US will start to produce more. But your right. But anyways, the US still would have between 4,000 to 5,000 nukes by the time these counties go to war. I say 4,000 at first, but they can produce more. But 4,000 can still wipe out most countries.

from,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 01:09 PM

Part V

I think that's a ludicrous concept. If that's the case, then the US has no idea about these peoples either. No idea they're capable of Magic. They don't just go launching Nukes as a 1st response - they spy for months, see that the people are middle-age farmer types mostly, and then march in tanks & troops.

Of course, by the time the recon is gained, I've already dominated your leader, so it's a moot point. Or better yet, assumed his identity with one of my high level mages. It's trivial to do so.

As for reality, and what such a D&D nation would know...

Gnomes in the D&D World already make (redimentary and strange) flying machines. I think you'd be surprised at how much knowledge people from the middle ages possessed. Maybe not the serfs and peasants - but those educated people. Think Aristotle, DesCartes, DaVinci. They all all pre-moden industrial noteworthy peoples from various periods who were well aware of the concepts of flight, advanced mathematics/physics and space.

Now Imagine taking someone like DaVinci and upping his Int from an 18 (He was a Genius) to a 40. You don't think he figures out Satellites? Communication? Come on! Pre-Tech doesn't entail stupidity.

Ok a few things here. OF coure the idea of the US going to war with a magic world is crazy. But we have to assume it is so for the purpose of this debeat. And so, both sides will go at eachother with everything they got. If your people could infletrate our sociaty, then it basicllly Harry Potter or Artimis Fowl type situation, where you guys get an understanding of tech. But as it is, they would be going at eachother with the intention of killing eachother, but not take time to really scout eachother out before hand. Crazy yes. Nessary for the purpose of this argument, yes.
yeah i major in the middle ages. I know who smart people were.
1. DaVinci is not middle ages, he was Renaissances. Yeah even with gnomes they get the power of some basic tech but they are still
A FEW HUNRED YEARS BEHIND THE TIMES
they have not hit the industral revoultion, nor have they mass produced guns. they have not invented the air plane (you get zeplines) or the multi shooting guns. You don't have napalm or mustard gas, or nukes, or tanks, or modern ships and subs. You don't have Machine guns, gernades, modern bombs, non magical train, oil power, phones (not even the telagraph), flame throwers, modern medicane or modern living conditions. Sure i don't understand magic, but you can't understand modern tech.
As for Davinci, even if you have 18 int (and how the hell do you up it to 40?) he would not be able to figure out their is something in space. What would let him know you don't think
"Oh i think they must be using giant floating object really high in the sky where their is not oxyagen to allow them to spy on us and communacate with eachother."
What will give it away. As far as you know, their is nothing up there. hell you might think the world is flat. Even a very smart person can't do miracles just by being smart. He has to logiaclly find a way reason to look into space
from,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 01:11 PM

Part VI

I'm glad you've conceded this at least. And I'll even give you getting a satellite or two back up - but you'd need a whole network of satellites to have precision communications and weapons function. Military satellites have a genral reception arc of 4° 30' and a transmission arc of < 1°. That's it. That means from a geocentric orbit you'd have about 30 seconds (depending on the exact orbital speed & height) on any given 200 Mile Radius (approx), and only have access to that satellite (without others to bounce off of) for 6 hours a day at most.

Why do you think the world went all up in arms when China blew up a high-orbit satellite in a test earlier this year? Because that capability can literally cripple every modern army in the world, and the recovery time is not optimistic.

Also because China is a force that can use their own satellites. If the US went to war with Chine (i hope not) then they could use their satellites if the US lost ours. But the biggest difference between the two nations is that
YOU DON'T HAVE SATELLITES. Nor do i think you can figure out their up their.
from,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 01:18 PM

Part VII

Never said I'd do so. My L20's could hide out there though.

The plane-drop bombs need to be dropped from a ceiling of at least 4 miles (> 20,000 ft). In WW-II they used a 30,000 ft ceiling. Again, this was generally considered minimum. The fall rate of 9m/s² w/ Resistance resulted in a terminal velocity of approx 335m/s. The time from release to detonation is approx 42-45 seconds from 30,000 ft. About 32 Seconds from 20,000 ft.

That's 7 (or 5) D&D Rounds. More than enough time to wait a few seconds and then...

[Round 1] Time Stop [Maximize Rod] (5 Rounds)
[Round 1a] Greater Invis, Quickened Fly
[Round 1b] Teleport to Nuke
[Round 1c] Delayed Blast Fireball the Plane
[Round 1d] Delayed Blast Fireball additional Plane
[Round 1e] Delayed Blast Fireball additional Plane
[Round 3] Polymorph Any Object [Nuke], Move Action to grab it.
[Round 3a] Celerity + Teleport Back.

18 Seconds. Nuke Gone, and 3 Planes about to experience an imminent crash... And if we're talking Level-Appropriate Wealth / Magic Items, Command Word activated effects for the Teleportation and Poly would cost less than 1/2 thier wealth allotment.

In cases where I don't want to blow a Timestop / Celerity, They'll just use Protection from Missiles :). Oh, useless machine guns they are!

The Nuke was grabbed in the move action. If you want, extending on the above, Rounds 4, 5 and 6 could destroy your Capital. Or better yet, Norad. :smallwink:

First, how many level 20's do you have? This is just a typical fantasy world (imagine ebberon magi-tech) but standard amount of poupulation. IF i destroy all your people, then i will yes.

As for the Nuke idea, imagine this

You see a huge fleet of air planes flying over your city. Most of them drop a huge amount of bombs on your city. Sure if you knew that they would be attacking in that way yes, but you would not understand tech. Even if you knew it was happening, how do you know which bomb is the nuke? And how do you know were my capital is? You can scy but you don't know what your scying for? I can use my space powers and my spy planes. And even if you get your transformed nuke, what about the other bombs? And what about napalm? Or the other 4,000 nukes for that matter? Sure you stopped a nuke because you expected it. Congrats. How do you stop them all?
At best (for you) i lose one major city. You lose about 4,000 (maybe a few less) major cities or imporant places. And how would you know what these planes are. My first attack our the nukes, how do you know what you are fighting?
from,
EE

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:06 PM

Ok two thing

RAW does not allow you to make a plane that give you unlimtied surrplies of spells. Where the hell does RAW say that.

Who says I have to make one? I just need to find one - which should be a trivial matter for a L20 Wizard. Exceedingly Trivial actually.

It can be extrapolated from many places:

Planar Handbook:

Precipitate Complete Breach (L9 Sor/Wiz). I can create a permanent planar breach to any fast time demiplane to create a "Flowing Time" effect. For Slow-Flowing Time Planes, for each Day that passes in the Breach, 100 Years occur outside. For a Fast-Flowing Time Plane, the opposite it the case.

Planar Traits.

Each plane of existence has its own properties—the natural laws of its universe. Planar traits are broken down into a number of general areas. All planes have the following kinds of traits.
Physical Traits: These traits determine the laws of physics and nature on the plane, including how gravity and time function.
Elemental/Energy Traits: These traits determine the dominance of particular elemental or energy forces.
Alignment Traits: Just as characters may be lawful neutral or chaotic good, many planes are tied to a particular moral or ethical outlook.
Magic Traits: Magic works differently from plane to plane, and these traits set the boundaries for what magic can and can’t do on a particular plane.

The Abyss.

The Abyss specifically has a plane where time flows backwards. Heh. Just hang out there for 8 Hours (Non-Detection, Mink Blank), come back and Rest, and you're renewed back at the time you left to go there.

As for the rest of your post, that is concerning three casters on the offensive in a terroist manner. That will make armies irrelevant...

Thank you for finally admitting that. You can't dictate my tactics.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:12 PM

IF we did a magic vs. Tech debeat, both worlds would have to be ignorent of eachother. Why? Becuase if Tech knows about magic, they might get magic and visa versa. Tech does not get or understand magic, or magic get or understand post midevil tech.

Actually, I'd say them being ignorant of each other at the onset is fine - but to say that they can't learn makes this a pointless exercise. The greatest resource L20 Wizards have is their high intellect and information gathering. They're always prepared. You can't just subjectively take that away.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:15 PM

"If you don't like that, I just Dominate the ruler. War's off guys! We're at peace! *yawn* That's actually the first thing they do in reality. If you control the commander in chief, the rest is trivial. And there's no way they can spot a scrying / greater invis / teleporting mage. Just no way."

You are going off topic here.

How is that off topic? Is a Wizard not using magic to control your entire army from the top down? Are you going to subjectively remove the power of domination / charm / compulsion here while you're at it too? Why not take away their stealth too? And make them all have down-syndrome too. Maybe that will help level the playing field.

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 02:17 PM

Who says I have to make one? I just need to find one - which should be a trivial matter for a L20 Wizard. Exceedingly Trivial actually.

It can be extrapolated from many places:

Planar Handbook:

Precipitate Complete Breach (L9 Sor/Wiz). I can create a permanent planar breach to any fast time demiplane to create a "Flowing Time" effect. For Slow-Flowing Time Planes, for each Day that passes in the Breach, 100 Years occur outside. For a Fast-Flowing Time Plane, the opposite it the case.

Planar Traits.

Each plane of existence has its own properties—the natural laws of its universe. Planar traits are broken down into a number of general areas. All planes have the following kinds of traits.
Physical Traits: These traits determine the laws of physics and nature on the plane, including how gravity and time function.
Elemental/Energy Traits: These traits determine the dominance of particular elemental or energy forces.
Alignment Traits: Just as characters may be lawful neutral or chaotic good, many planes are tied to a particular moral or ethical outlook.
Magic Traits: Magic works differently from plane to plane, and these traits set the boundaries for what magic can and can’t do on a particular plane.

The Abyss.

The Abyss specifically has a plane where time flows backwards. Heh. Just hang out there for 8 Hours (Non-Detection, Mink Blank), come back and Rest, and you're renewed back at the time you left to go there.

Thank you for finally admitting that. You can't dictate my tactics.

Ok two things. You are going to hang out in the Abyss, which is know to be really deadly for 8 hours? So if something attacks you, you use up even more spells? Ok good luck with that. And you are showing up their on a regular basis?

As for part two, if you read the rest i explain. Three casters acting as a terrorist squad will make armies irrelevant, becuase terrorist just make make armies irrelevant. That has nothing to do with PC classes making armies irrelevant. ON a side note, 3 level 20 casters acting as a terrorist group would be awsome. I am doing that in my game
from,
EE

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 02:18 PM

Actually, I'd say them being ignorant of each other at the onset is fine - but to say that they can't learn makes this a pointless exercise. The greatest resource L20 Wizards have is their high intellect and information gathering. They're always prepared. You can't just subjectively take that away.

Yeah but no matter how smart you are, you can't learn something you have no understanding of. It is not a matter of intelect. It is a matter of understanding. The smartest man in the mid evil world would go crazy trying to understand modern science. The wizard are to far behind on times to understand moder tech, becuase it would seem like magic.

How is that off topic? Is a Wizard not using magic to control your entire army from the top down? Are you going to subjectively remove the power of domination / charm / compulsion here while you're at it too? Why not take away their stealth too? And make them all have down-syndrome too. Maybe that will help level the playing field.

Because they are not fighting a war, they are now living in peace. You have to win. Here i will explain in more detail
In order for ether of us to prove our point, both worlds will have to start fighting each other as soon as they find out about eachother. How would your casters find my guys before you world is nukes to pieces?
from,
EE
from,
EE

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:48 PM

As for Davinci, even if you have 18 int (and how the hell do you up it to 40?) he would not be able to figure out their is something in space. What would let him know you don't think
"Oh i think they must be using giant floating object really high in the sky where their is not oxyagen to allow them to spy on us and communacate with eachother."

18 +5 (Levels) +5 (Inherent) +6 (Enhancement) +6 (Sacred) = 40. I can get it a lot higher too. +6 (Luck) +6 (Insight) = 52. Think anyone in the modern world saves against a DC 40 Spell?

What will give it away. As far as you know, their is nothing up there. hell you might think the world is flat. Even a very smart person can't do miracles just by being smart. He has to logiaclly find a way reason to look into space.

Step 1: Recon.
While Invis and under Non-Detection a Wizard bounces around throughout your population Charming people and bringing them back (Via Use-Activated Items - yay Wealth by Level). In an hour, he could get 60 people (1 person a minute should be easy). Now, this is the first step. He gives them a nice meal, over which they all sit and talk and he finds out where the brightest minds in the world are. MIT, NASA, The Pentagon, etc.. He gets descriptions of these locations in detail. Perhaps he teleports a few of these people back to raid a library with them. Get an Atlas, stuff like that.

Now he gets the 2nd round of people the next day. Engineers, Professors, Politicians, Military Personnel. Since the "Tech Side" has no idea of the capability of magic, they'd not suspect even a possibility of invisible men teleporting in, charming people, and taking them with em.

Now I learn your Vulnerabilities from experts. San Andreas Fault, Super Volcanos, The Manhattan Fault and Dependance on Oil for Fuel (and the fact that 50% of the nation's processed crude is just off the NJ Turnpike - very conveinent place to Meteor Storm). I also learn your strengths, and what to watch out for. For Example:

Wizard: "How do you communicate? Telepathy?"

MIT Professor: "Hah! You're pretty funny. No, we have satellites placed in low orbits that bounce signals around the globe at light speed."

Wizard: "So, then you have Telepathy Artifacts in space! Amazing! What would happen if they were destroyed?"

MIT Professor: "Well, they're not telepathy, but yeah, if those were gone we wouldn't be able to have any instant long-range comm other than through land-lined telephones and long-wave radios. We'd also lose most of out military cohesion and power as even our ability to get another satellite up there is dependant on already existing satellites.

Wizard: "Call it what you will, How do I reach these Satellites?"

MIT Professor: "Umm, you can't. You'd need a rocket to get up there."

Wizard: "Let us say I can get there - how do I find them?"

MIT Professor: "You should ask the guy from NASA - he probably has access to orbital patterns - err - where the satellites are."

Wizard: "Excellent!"

From here it's just asking the right questions - which I think we can all assume someone with that intellect would do.

Step 2: Arrange Tactics.
Using these experts in their field, a Wizard could conjecture much as we are as to what he could possibly do. With his powers, intellect and the advice of charmed experts on the modern world, it'd be an exercise in simplicity to bring about the multitude of scenarios presented earlier.
Step 3: Execute Actions.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:49 PM

Also because China is a force that can use their own satellites. If the US went to war with Chine (i hope not) then they could use their satellites if the US lost ours.

Huh? Are you saying we'd use China's satellites? I don't even know how to respond to that...

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:52 PM

My first attack our the nukes, how do you know what you are fighting?

So your first attack is one that guarantee's your own death, and the death of most life on the planet! Yeah, I guess if that's your definition of a victory...

And don't discount Miracle.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 02:54 PM

... casters acting as a terrorist squad will make armies irrelevant, becuase terrorist just make armies irrelevant.

Again, thank you for the concession. I accept your admission of defeat!

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 03:16 PM

Yeah but no matter how smart you are, you can't learn something you have no understanding of. It is not a matter of intelect. It is a matter of understanding. The smartest man in the mid evil world would go crazy trying to understand modern science. The wizard are to far behind on times to understand moder tech, becuase it would seem like magic.

Oh Really?! If that's the case how on earth did modern science ever come about? Understanding something that exists and is documented is a LOT easier than figuring it out on your own through deductive reasoning.

For example: 99.99%+ of the population could not learn Calculus without guides. We are not inherently capable of thinking that way. There has been a handful of people each generation that lead our forward evolution of science. And the masses follow in their footsteps, but rarely create their own. I took Calc I, Calc II and Linear Algebra in under a years total time - getting A's in all of em. I then took Calc III, Calc IV, and Combinatorics in another years time following that. That's 38 weeks a year, for about 4 hours a week for me to learn what it took multiple lifetimes of the most brilliant mathematical people in history to understand without guidance. That's what you're under-estimating.

Once any intelligent person gets their hands on those text-books, you're in trouble. Learning is easy. Discovery is hard. And Tech would have no one to teach them the Arcane / Divine / Psionic Arts. There weren't "A Guide to the Elementary Mage" textbooks being mass-produced. The printing press wasn't available (in realistic worth) until the 17th century.

In order for ether of us to prove our point, both worlds will have to start fighting each other as soon as they find out about eachother. How would your casters find my guys before you world is nukes to pieces?

Bull. I need to make your army irrelevant. I do so by dominating your leader(s). If I wanted to, I could go further and have him start de-commissioning defense programs, reducing arms, etc... I could have him fabricate an enemy that doesn't exist on another border, sending his armed forces there. I can do pretty much whatever I want.

Economic and Polotic victories are just as valid as Military victories. After all, did we ever fire a shot at the Soviet Union? I think it's safe to say we won the Cold War :).

Jayabalard

2007-03-02, 04:08 PM

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 04:59 PM

either:

-Magic doesn't work in the world, in which case, a wizard that comes here is out of luck and not going to conquering or defending anything.

-Magic does work in the world, in which case he's going to have to defend himself from the level 20 wizards that are here and keeping themselves secret.

As for teleporting around, charming people and learning a tech world's secrets... not going to be useful, since the wizard won't be able to take any skill ranks in those new types of knowledge until he levels, so he won't be able to learn how to calculate where satalites will be at a specific time.

1. ShapeChange / Metamorphosis to assume a creature with Greater Teleport (Su) innate, or have a Command Word Activated item with such...
2. Stock up on Magic Missile & Ethereal Scrolls.
3. Widened Locate Object (Satellite).
4. Go Hunting.

10 Wizards can cover an hemisphere in a day or so...

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 06:51 PM

18 +5 (Levels) +5 (Inherent) +6 (Enhancement) +6 (Sacred) = 40. I can get it a lot higher too. +6 (Luck) +6 (Insight) = 52. Think anyone in the modern world saves against a DC 40 Spell?

Yeah, three points. 1. he lived in wrong time period
2. He is dead and from teh tech world
3. How are you getting all these niffy bonuses

Step 1: Recon.
While Invis and under Non-Detection a Wizard bounces around throughout your population Charming people and bringing them back (Via Use-Activated Items - yay Wealth by Level). In an hour, he could get 60 people (1 person a minute should be easy). Now, this is the first step. He gives them a nice meal, over which they all sit and talk and he finds out where the brightest minds in the world are. MIT, NASA, The Pentagon, etc.. He gets descriptions of these locations in detail. Perhaps he teleports a few of these people back to raid a library with them. Get an Atlas, stuff like that.
Oh and wizard from a middle age world will know where to look? Oh yeah i forgot. Every wizard when he goes into training to take "Locate the greatest thinkers of the Unitied States of America" spell to use just in case Okpoke wanted to make a bais argument based on that. You still have not explained how your guys even know to get over here. I would think they would be a bit busy with, i don't know, the nukes? And the tanks. And the Bombs. And the bombs. And the guns. In your head, there still fighting.
Now how will you even find the place. The US is pretty huge, and it is hard to find something in a place of which you have no understanding. It pretty bias to say "I will just go to NASA's HQ". How will the guy find it. Asking random people on the street. Becuase if i ask random american on the street random question, i will be lost and live in this country. And what is the adverage guy going a do, knowing they are fighting magic using people when somebody starts asking them about telpathic powers?

Now he gets the 2nd round of people the next day. Engineers, Professors, Politicians, Military Personnel. Since the "Tech Side" has no idea of the capability of magic, they'd not suspect even a possibility of invisible men teleporting in, charming people, and taking them with em.

Now I learn your Vulnerabilities from experts. San Andreas Fault, Super Volcanos, The Manhattan Fault and Dependance on Oil for Fuel (and the fact that 50% of the nation's processed crude is just off the NJ Turnpike - very conveinent place to Meteor Storm). I also learn your strengths, and what to watch out for. For Example:

[QUOTE]
Wizard: "How do you communicate? Telepathy?"

MIT Professor: "Hah! You're pretty funny. No, we have satellites placed in low orbits that bounce signals around the globe at light speed."

Wizard: "So, then you have Telepathy Artifacts in space! Amazing! What would happen if they were destroyed?"

MIT Professor: "Well, they're not telepathy, but yeah, if those were gone we wouldn't be able to have any instant long-range comm other than through land-lined telephones and long-wave radios. We'd also lose most of out military cohesion and power as even our ability to get another satellite up there is dependant on already existing satellites.

Wizard: "Call it what you will, How do I reach these Satellites?"

MIT Professor: "Umm, you can't. You'd need a rocket to get up there."

Wizard: "Let us say I can get there - how do I find them?"

MIT Professor: "You should ask the guy from NASA - he probably has access to orbital patterns - err - where the satellites are."

Wizard: "Excellent!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHA! I'm sorry, you are the first person on this forum other than the giant who can make me laugh off a chair. Though in a laugh at way not laugh with. So let me get this straight? A wizard, who is wearing robes, from a middle age world, whose life has been run by magic his whole life, comes into contact with a forgein culture that can blow up all of his cities. How he even gets to america i don't know, as he has never been their and would not have a map, but he shows up, cast invisabilty spell so he will not be shot on sigh, and does not faint from amazement. Screw communcations, who do these metal creatures with four wheels work? What are these lights everywhere? How are these buildings stand up? When people come from third war countries and enter NY they are often overwhelmed by all the noise and light. I would think your guy would get lost. And most likely ask the wrong question. Hell, if he goes down south he might ask a KKK a question becuase he is wearing a robe
Wizard: How does this strange magic work
KKK: Who the hell are you? I beat you you freak
(Wizard kills him)
The wizard would revel himself very quickly. Rember, you nation does not know that ours does not have magic. If you don't know how a car works it seems like magic. Communications would be the last probelm, what about a computor. Or a TV? Or a trafic light. To even fight the right guy without being killed woudl be amazing. Hell i think he would get hit by a car by mistake. The fact that he would be overwhelmed with all this strange "Magic" would keep him from understanding something like the sattlights.

From here it's just asking the right questions - which I think we can all assume someone with that intellect would do.

It is like when my people, the native americans meet the Europeons. It was not them being dumb, they just could not understand? Intellegence only works if your are speaking the same tounge. And i don't mean that literally (you can just cast tounges) but how can somebody from the middle ages understand modern tech in only a few days? Sorry not possible. Maybe if ou have a few weeks you might get a basic understanding but by then your country would be destroyed.

Step 2: Arrange Tactics.
Using these experts in their field, a Wizard could conjecture much as we are as to what he could possibly do. With his powers, intellect and the advice of charmed experts on the modern world, it'd be an exercise in simplicity to bring about the multitude of scenarios presented earlier.
Step 3: Execute Actions.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, no
No just no.
Their is no way to explain something so complex to somebody, even if they are really smart. I onced worked with a forgein exchange student from Rawanda and that was insane. Different cultures will always have trouble understanding eachother. Time difference just makes teh situation insane. Tech differnce would drive one nuts. And what about the wizards world. Everyone is wearing different cloths, listen to music that comes out of plastic objects, talks into small plastic things, eats different foods, speak differently and think differently. He would view magic as common place and most likely make mistake in dilect.

Huh? Are you saying we'd use China's satellites? I don't even know how to respond to that...

People made a big deal about it because China has satellites to use against up. And it is during peace time so we don't have much else to do (becase we like to avoid thinking about the current war) Your guy does not have satellites.

So your first attack is one that guarantee's your own death, and the death of most life on the planet! Yeah, I guess if that's your definition of a victory...

And don't discount Miracle.

My first attack is the one that will wipe out most of my enemies in the quickest, most effective, and troop costing manner. "This is not a human sumit, this is war." If i am willing to use nukes in the first place, then do i care about the world? I didn't think so. Nukes will take our the vast majoraty of your cities, forts, and pouplation. Sence this is a hypethical situation, then yes it is a victory. Magic beat tech.
And miracle can't get rid of all the Nukes in the planet. Sorry.

Again, thank you for the concession. I accept your admission of defeat!
God, do you have any miltary idea of miltary tatics? One would not use an ARMY against terrorists, because you can't beat terrorist with an army. But that does not make an army irrelevant just because you are a PC, but becuase you are a terroist. Two different conversations.

Oh Really?! If that's the case how on earth did modern science ever come about? Understanding something that exists and is documented is a LOT easier than figuring it out on your own through deductive reasoning.

OH yeah, look how that worked out. It only to, what, 700 YEARS? Yeah, and it takes one years to understand anything and that is with proffesional help.

Re: Do PC classes make armies irrelevant?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilElitest
Yeah but no matter how smart you are, you can't learn something you have no understanding of. It is not a matter of intelect. It is a matter of understanding. The smartest man in the mid evil world would go crazy trying to understand modern science. The wizard are to far behind on times to understand moder tech, becuase it would seem like magic.

Oh Really?! If that's the case how on earth did modern science ever come about? Understanding something that exists and is documented is a LOT easier than figuring it out on your own through deductive reasoning.

For example: 99.99%+ of the population could not learn Calculus without guides. We are not inherently capable of thinking that way. There has been a handful of people each generation that lead our forward evolution of science. And the masses follow in their footsteps, but rarely create their own. I took Calc I, Calc II and Linear Algebra in under a years total time - getting A's in all of em. I then took Calc III, Calc IV, and Combinatorics in another years time following that. That's 38 weeks a year, for about 4 hours a week for me to learn what it took multiple lifetimes of the most brilliant mathematical people in history to understand without guidance. That's what you're under-estimating.

Once any intelligent person gets their hands on those text-books, you're in trouble. Learning is easy. Discovery is hard. And Tech would have no one to teach them the Arcane / Divine / Psionic Arts. There weren't "A Guide to the Elementary Mage" textbooks being mass-produced. The printing press wasn't available (in realistic worth) until the 17th century.

So you majored in math. Yeah, and you took courses. And you were already intergated into the sociaty. You understand basic tech that is to complex for people of the middle ages to understand, like a toaster, or a vacume, or a modern shower, or lights, or a gun (not to use but to understand) or the computor, or TV or a car and a radio. You already knew what those thinks when you were only a kid (i would expect, i know i did). You went to school for years, most likely to a proffesnal instution. And it takes time. For somebody with no knowlage of this world, its tech, or its culture then they are screwed no matter how smart it is. Maybe if you had years at your desposal, but you don't. You have a few days tops.

Bull. I need to make your army irrelevant. I do so by dominating your leader(s). If I wanted to, I could go further and have him start de-commissioning defense programs, reducing arms, etc... I could have him fabricate an enemy that doesn't exist on another border, sending his armed forces there. I can do pretty much whatever I want.

Economic and Polotic victories are just as valid as Military victories. After all, did we ever fire a shot at the Soviet Union? I think it's safe to say we won the Cold War :).

1. We did not offially win the Cold War. We won by default, not becuase of ative sabatage (but not for lack of trying). The Soviets fell becuase of their own badle thought out economic programs.

And yeah, how would you get my leader. The situation i am talking about is instant war. How can you find my leader in the time it takes for me to drop a nuke? Because unlike your princes, our leader don't fight in the war. As i said before, you would have to understand modern culture to even hope to inflatrate our socaity. But we can understand Midevil culture. Why? Becuase we went though it ourselves.

Or if you can't understand using logic, try mechancal arguement.

As for teleporting around, charming people and learning a tech world's secrets... not going to be useful, since the wizard won't be able to take any skill ranks in those new types of knowledge until he levels, so he won't be able to learn how to calculate where satalites will be at a specific time.

How do you learn this stuff? Dam impossible in hte time it takes to drop a bomb.
from,
EE

crazedloon

2007-03-02, 07:16 PM

I love the way no one has thought about the caster invisably walking into all these high security facilitys.

Guard 1: wow today sucks.
Guard 2: sure does.
metal detector: beep beep beep beep beep
Caster: O sh*tz (blam as he blows up the detector not understanding what it is and thus unsure as to its threat level)
guard 1: oh god in heaven what was that.
guard 2: no clue just shoot it.
Caster: (dead because he is riddled with bullets from the 2 trigger happy guards who have just peed their pants)

Decorator: So how exactly did you blow up a metal detector and riddle this entire wall with bullets..........

Really a caster will not see a reason to not walk in the front door if they are invisible after all they see no one for the tech people to suspect them. They will also have no idea what a metal detector is (we have those at most public /high security doors now a days). And well humans are stupid easily frightened people and a metal detector exploding is sure to cause a lot of fear.

As Casters in this situations will not be returning there will be no intel as far as the "danger" of metal detectors so the magic side will lose quite a few high level casters to this foolish fear that all creatures have of the unknown :smallwink: :smalltongue:

illathid

2007-03-02, 07:21 PM

crazedloon

2007-03-02, 07:25 PM

Because most wizards are known for carrying lots of metal all of the time. Oh wait, thats fighters. I would think they would go ethereal if they need to infiltrate an enemy complex, that way they are invisible and don't have to worry about ANY threat.

A simple robe clasp will set one off.

Also as a caster who has a limited number of spells per day the ability to keep a few higher level slots open by using invis over an ethereal spell would seam more logical becuase you have no reason to expect any resistence when you are invis.

illathid

2007-03-02, 07:34 PM

I think you're underestimating just how paranoid a wizard could/would be. And plus, who's says they have to prepare it, thats what scrolls are for.

crazedloon

2007-03-02, 07:44 PM

I think you're underestimating just how paranoid a wizard could/would be. And plus, who's says they have to prepare it, thats what scrolls are for.

true but dont you think a guy reading a piece of paper in a wierd language would be a little suspicious and think of all the distractions i.e. people walking up to them and asking them if they are ok. Consentration checks would be a pain in the butt. plus my addition was for more humors sake as much as acctual outcome mainly becuase i think the argument onf tech vs magic is rediculous.

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 09:13 PM

Yeah, three points.

1. he lived in wrong time period
2. He is dead and from teh tech world
3. How are you getting all these niffy bonuses

1. You're only fucusing on 1 of the 3 listed people, and doing so improperly.
2. He's not from the "Tech World." He's from the Renaissance. The Industrial Revolution didn't start until MUCH later - in the 1780s.
3. It's called Magic Items. Do you play D&D?

Oh and wizard from a middle age world will know where to look? Oh yeah i forgot. Every wizard when he goes into training to take "Locate the greatest thinkers of the Unitied States of America" spell...

Actually no, he got a lot of random laymen first who directed him to locations to get great thinkers. If you think this absurd, you're not a critical thinker. Reasoning is goverened by Intelligence. If I can reason that I'm in a new world with unknown peoples / items - my first order of operations is to get acquainted with them. Bearing in mind I have the power to influence people and "dominate" them, it's an exercise in simplicity.

to use just in case Okpoke

I warned you once. Again, I report you. If you can't spell a SN right, or even abbreviate it right, then don't use it.

wanted to make a bais argument based on that. You still have not explained how your guys even know to get over here. I would think they would be a bit busy with, i don't know, the nukes? And the tanks. And the Bombs. And the bombs. And the guns. In your head, there still fighting.

Your wit amuses me... In the same way seeing a dog running into a sliding glass door amuses me. Funny, but pitiful.

Now how will you even find the place. The US is pretty huge, and it is hard to find something in a place of which you have no understanding. It pretty bias to say "I will just go to NASA's HQ". How will the guy find it.

Again, stop assuming middle-age = stupid. It's old and it's a pointless argument. If these people are living in the same world, they should know about each other. YOU CANNOT ASSUME ONE SIDE KNOWS OF THE OTHER EXCLUSIVELY BECAUSE OF YOUR BIAS. You've been doing this for about 8 pages of posts. It's lame.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHA! I'm sorry, you are the first person on this forum other than the giant who can make me laugh off a chair. Though in a laugh at way not laugh with.

I'm chalking this up to a flame. I'm PM'ing an Admin.

Continuing...

So let me get this straight? A wizard, who is wearing robes, from a middle age world, whose life has been run by magic his whole life, comes into contact with a forgein culture that can blow up all of his cities. How he even gets to america i don't know, as he has never been their and would not have a map, but he shows up, cast invisabilty spell so he will not be shot on sigh, and does not faint from amazement.

Nope. He's likely seen Dragon's birthed and Gods impose their will. Same ****e, different day. You figure it out and move on.

Screw communcations, who do these metal creatures with four wheels work? What are these lights everywhere? How are these buildings stand up?

Funny - Wizard towers are traditionally hundreds of feet high spires. A Gnomish Siege Engine isn't that far from a Tank. You're grasping at straws.

It is like when my people, the native americans meet the Europeons. It was not them being dumb, they just could not understand? Intellegence only works if your are speaking the same tounge. And i don't mean that literally (you can just cast tounges) but how can somebody from the middle ages understand modern tech in only a few days? Sorry not possible. Maybe if ou have a few weeks you might get a basic understanding but by then your country would be destroyed.

Actually, a lot of Native Americans (The Maya) knew what ships were and what the conquistadors brought. They however could not speak because the religious leadership would have had them sacrificed (which happened normally anyhow). Yeah, my wife's got a PhD in Latin American History & Culture. I've got scads of gleaned usless info on the Spaniards colonizing the Americas.

People made a big deal about it because China has satellites to use against up. And it is during peace time so we don't have much else to do (becase we like to avoid thinking about the current war) Your guy does not have satellites.

Again, I don't follow you. Maybe it's the misspelling and lack of cohesion. I've said that taking out our satellites would cripple us. You've agreed. You've agreed the Wizards could do it. You've even gone as far as to say it could be done in a day. What are you arguing here?

My first attack is the one that will wipe out most of my enemies in the quickest, most effective, and troop costing manner. "This is not a human sumit, this is war." If i am willing to use nukes in the first place, then do i care about the world? I didn't think so. Nukes will take our the vast majoraty of your cities, forts, and pouplation. Sence this is a hypethical situation, then yes it is a victory. Magic beat tech.

It's funny. I just realized what it is you're trying to do. You're attempting to...

Insist that your side has complete geographical knowledge.
Insist that your enemy has no geographical knowledge.
Insist that you'd fully know your enemy.
Insist that your enemy is oblivious to you.
Insist that D&D mechanics which benefit caster's are Rule-0'd out.
Insist that D&D mechanics which limit caster's are strictly enforced.
Insist that destroying the planet is a win for your side.Pretty cute... Lets reverse that, shall we? The US is Magically Transported to another world where the caster's are natives. Only up to 4 miles above sea-level is transported. The caster's know you're there, and they're agressive. Their divinations have informed them of your capabilities if they give you even a week to get ramped up. So you're assaulted, en masse, by dozens of Casters ranging from L13 to L20 (within an hour of landing there), who use temporal Demi-planes to rejuvenate their spells instantaneously. If you blow yourself up with Nukes, I win. How do you fare?

Do you see my point now of giving the sides equal stance to start?

And miracle can't get rid of all the Nukes in the planet. Sorry.

Sure it can. Pelor says it can. See here...

"And thus the bringer of light said unto his servant - call unto me in your time of need and I will snatch fire from the sky and give it unto your hand to do with as you will."

I think that qualifies. Nukes are "Fire from the Sky" - so he's just gonna give them to us when we ask for them. You lose.

God, do you have any miltary idea of miltary tatics? One would not use an ARMY against terrorists, because you can't beat terrorist with an army. But that does not make an army irrelevant just because you are a PC, but becuase you are a terroist. Two different conversations.

You've already conceeded this - stop dredging it up. I'm fighting on MY terms. Not yours. I don't have an army (by your own decree) - so I choose to do the most damage in a fashion of hit and run moves as possible to destroy your infrastructure. And I do it very quickly, and very well.

So you majored in math. Yeah, and you took courses. And you were already intergated into the sociaty. You understand basic tech that is to complex for people of the middle ages to understand, like a toaster, or a vacume, or a modern shower, or lights, or a gun (not to use but to understand) or the computor, or TV or a car and a radio.

Nope. I majored in Philosophy & Computer Science with Minors in Mathematics & Physics.

And just so you know, the concept of the heating coil (toaster) has been about since the Egyptians. Gunpowers has been around since 300 BC. The concept of a vacuum has been around since Aristotle. You're horribly misinformed if you think otherwise.

And while it might take time to learn, let me say it again...

Temporally Accellerated Plane... You've acquiesced that these casters could learn such in a few years. Well, they go to a place where 1 Year passes for every Prime-Material Day - with a butt-load of books (not that it's even necessary - keep reading. DONE!

And yeah, how would you get my leader. The situation i am talking about is instant war. How can you find my leader in the time it takes for me to drop a nuke? Because unlike your princes, our leader don't fight in the war. As i said before, you would have to understand modern culture to even hope to inflatrate our socaity. But we can understand Midevil culture. Why? Becuase we went though it ourselves.

If you think you understand medieval culture - you're wrong. The people of today are so far out of touch with the person from 50, let alone 500 years ago it isn't even funny - and what's worse is that we _think_ we know our stuff. I suggest you do a LOT of reading before you continue any further. Seriously, you haven't been on point in anything you've said in this post.

"As for teleporting around, charming people and learning a tech world's secrets... not going to be useful, since the wizard won't be able to take any skill ranks in those new types of knowledge until he levels, so he won't be able to learn how to calculate where satalites will be at a specific time."

How do you learn this stuff? Dam impossible in hte time it takes to drop a bomb.

Psychic Reformation: Instantaneous. Here's some of the text:

"When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.

The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones.

The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below)."

And guess what? It only costs 50 xp per Level of rebuild. *does a little dance* I can get all the ranks I need... INSTANTLY!

Now, are you going to over-rule this as well cause it ruins one of your already weak stances?

okpokalypse

2007-03-02, 09:15 PM

crazedloon

2007-03-02, 10:49 PM

Ok I finaly had a moment of clarity as far as tech vs magic is conserned (not that it matters) but you are giving PCs to only the magic side. notice its always techs npc with mabey 2 class levels (if they are lucky) vs magics uber top of the food chain PCs.

Ok I would give examples of only a few tech Pcs (becuase realy my brain aint working)

so tech gets a few James Bond types (so theyw ill infultrate your high security faciltys and somehow against the odds kill all the guards and blow up the "control room" with the main bady in it without actual screwing up his suite)

then you get Rambo types who will take on an entire city by themsleves.

Then you get the good old fasioned cowboy from out west able to draw a 6 shooter empty it on a silver dollar (never missing) and reloading in a few seconds.

ok give me a group of these guys at level 20 :smallbiggrin: rambo will smell out your invis spellcasters while the cowboy shoots them before they can cast a spell (cus they are that fast) and then james bond will blow stuff up and have sex with your wife.

What I am saying is where are the tech PCs?

EvilElitest

2007-03-02, 11:37 PM

Ah watch it stick its neck out. Now let me find an axe.

[QUOTE=okpokalypse;2127126]1. You're only fucusing on 1 of the 3 listed people, and doing so improperly.
2. He's not from the "Tech World." He's from the Renaissance. The Industrial Revolution didn't start until MUCH later - in the 1780s.
3. It's called Magic Items. Do you play D&D?

Ok, 1 when i say tech world, i mean the world with tech. Maybe you heard of it. Earth? How would a middle age fantasy world get him? And why woudl they want to. Or even know to?
2. Yeah he is from the Renaissance. that means that he came from an age with greater tech than yours.
3. Ok so let me get this straight. Your casters are going to look through my entire history, find this one guy, decied "hey lets get a long dead enginer and artist from their world and rez him to help us built planes." True if you read the rest of the book your would relize while he did come up with the idea, the plane was not invented until a good deal later, like a few hundred years. And so you would then will find Earth and rez him, give hims a ton of magic Items and expect him to work for you, or even to help in a major way? Seems like a strange way to go about things. You might do better raising Einstein, as it might get you a nuke. Except of course, you are behind a few hundred years in tech.

Actually no, he got a lot of random laymen first who directed him to locations to get great thinkers. If you think this absurd, you're not a critical thinker. Reasoning is goverened by Intelligence. If I can reason that I'm in a new world with unknown peoples / items - my first order of operations is to get acquainted with them. Bearing in mind I have the power to influence people and "dominate" them, it's an exercise in simplicity.

1. The adverage american can't find all the states on a map. How many will it take you to NASA HQ or what ever great thinkers you are looking for before attacting attintion.
2. Ok if 1 random laymen passes his will check, he is looking at a funny man in robes asking weird questions about the smartest men in the country (and who happend to be the people you are fighting. Yeah if one of them call the police (or a bystander seeing the freaky tramp in robes) then you have to out fight the police. Not that you could not, but then you will be wanted, and thank to TV we can get infomation around pretty fast.
3. How is it at all simple. You are in a completly alien culture, that is hundreds of years ahead of you. How will you be able to function without making a mistake.

I warned you once. Again, I report you. If you can't spell a SN right, or even abbreviate it right, then don't use it.

I will request that if you can't take the time to spell my SN correctly, you stop using bastardizations of it. It's not that hard. A truncation like Okpok will suffice, but just jumbling a few letters to be a wise-ass is pretty childish, and quite honestly, rude.
Ok i think your jumping to conclusion. You have a long name and it is tiresome to spell. So i used the nickname you mentioned and made a mistake and added an e. I don't need to jumble a name to make an insult, it is not worth my time. Whatever, not worth hte trouble. It it offends you i will call you okpokalypse from now one.

Your wit amuses me... In the same way seeing a dog running into a sliding glass door amuses me. Funny, but pitiful.

Thanks nothing but insults directed towards my wit and avoding my point. And you don't like the Cranberries? i really liked that song. But the point is still the same, i will take a good deal of time for somebody living in america to find the NASA HQ, not to meintion somebody with no idea how to use a telephone.

Again, stop assuming middle-age = stupid. It's old and it's a pointless argument. If these people are living in the same world, they should know about each other. YOU CANNOT ASSUME ONE SIDE KNOWS OF THE OTHER EXCLUSIVELY BECAUSE OF YOUR BIAS. You've been doing this for about 8 pages of posts. It's lame.

Yeah, the middle ages. Where they thought the way to cure the Black Death was to sit in the sewer so the smell would drive the germs away. The middle ages were all just a crawl to catch up with the Roman era, which brought forth the Renaissance era. They can't be living in the same world because we know the US history. But the people of the US do know the history and tech of the middle ages. So your non magic tatics don't work, we know them already and have better weapons. So magic is the wild card (lets pretend that the US does not have D&D magic books to check). We have already gond though your age of tech, you have no idea what mine is. As for the rest of you quote, you can yell at me all you want, you can result to insults, but does not win an argument.

Nope. He's likely seen Dragon's birthed and Gods impose their will. Same ****e, different day. You figure it out and move on.

Different world differnt ballpark. Imagine this

If in the City
(Wizard name will be Edward)

There was a blast of noise when he appeared. Edward blinked and gasped. He had appeared in an ally between two huge buildings. He was in the strangest he had ever seen. Out side the ally was a sight that would boggle the mind. In it most primal form, it was a city, but not like anything he had seen. The streets were black and covered with yellow lines. Upon this streets were huge creatures he had never seen before. Made out of metal, they vaguely resembled coaches, but mutated into a form beyond the normal imagination. They were topped upon four round black objects, vaguely like coach wheel but make out of a black substance. They were like a coach in that they had windows and doors. But they ran on nothing. But that did not make sense. Edward knew that these people did not believe in magic. Honking noises came from all around and shouts could be heard. The air was filthy with smoke and dust. The buildings were huge and towered over him. Edward knew enough about his home to know that it was impossible for none magic building to reach such a height. Upon these roofs were massive pictures. Some of these had people who are moving. Moving pictures? And the people. They were everywhere. Edward could not be seen but even if he could have been, he had doubts that they would see him. They are so many of them. And all humans. Some talked into their palms. Others had wires in their ears. Others had flashing shoes. It was to much to take in. Edward moved in front of the horseless carriage, which was stationary and looked inside. There were three people here. Suddenly the coach made a loud honk. Edward jumped and let out a blast of flame

Funny - Wizard towers are traditionally hundreds of feet high spires. A Gnomish Siege Engine isn't that far from a Tank. You're grasping at straws.

yeah, expect that knows siege tower don't you know run on electicity? And their are not millions of them. And they don't explode in your face. And they are bulkly and unweildy.

Actually, a lot of Native Americans (The Maya) knew what ships were and what the conquistadors brought. They however could not speak because the religious leadership would have had them sacrificed (which happened normally anyhow). Yeah, my wife's got a PhD in Latin American History & Culture. I've got scads of gleaned usless info on the Spaniards colonizing the Americas.

But they also could not beat the conquers becuause of the technacial difference between them. They were still using swords against guns. Acording to history, greater tech beats less tech. Take teh 6-day war for example. Israel defeated most of the Middle East. And Isreal was smaller than it is today. Why? Becuase they had far greater tech.

Again, I don't follow you. Maybe it's the misspelling and lack of cohesion. I've said that taking out our satellites would cripple us. You've agreed. You've agreed the Wizards could do it. You've even gone as far as to say it could be done in a day. What are you arguing here?

Here is what I am arguing. To a middle age mind, that has not been exposed to modern revalations the idea of traveling space will seem alien. When you use magic on a regular basis, the idea of the army communatacating very easliy is not that amazing. The idea of a floating thing in space that allows the soilder to communicate will just seem to far fetched to even complated. Sure if the Wizard had been assimilated into the modern world then we have a differnt story.

It's funny. I just realized what it is you're trying to do. You're attempting to...

Insist that your side has complete geographical knowledge.
Insist that your enemy has no geographical knowledge.
Insist that you'd fully know your enemy.
Insist that your enemy is oblivious to you.
Insist that D&D mechanics which benefit caster's are Rule-0'd out.
Insist that D&D mechanics which limit caster's are strictly enforced.
Insist that destroying the planet is a win for your side.
1. NO i have no geographical knowledge. But i can get it by using my funny things that float in space.
2. If you know what to scy for (which you have know explained how) then sure you do get geographical knowlege. But what are you looking for?
3. No i don't. But i do know that you are using middle age tech. I have lots of bombs and guns. Not hard to figure out my tatics.
4. that works both ways. But because you need to sleep for 8 hours (unless you like to sleep in the Abyss) you will have a problem. To scy me (unless you have a non magic way to find out about my nation) you need to use up spell. I just need to use my "magic space machines" . Greater Tech.
5. No, you have yet to use them in a way that would make any logical sense. Sure if you have lived in a modern nation for a few years, then yes some of you tatics would work. Or if you knew my nukes were coming. But until you explain how that works out how you know it is comming, then by all means use your tatic. But you need understanding of the modern world.
6. You have avoided them.
7. Well yeah, your all dead. Sure we all die, but we are talking short term here.

Pretty cute... Lets reverse that, shall we? The US is Magically Transported to another world where the caster's are natives. Only up to 4 miles above sea-level is transported. The caster's know you're there, and they're agressive. Their divinations have informed them of your capabilities if they give you even a week to get ramped up. So you're assaulted, en masse, by dozens of Casters ranging from L13 to L20 (within an hour of landing there), who use temporal Demi-planes to rejuvenate their spells instantaneously. If you blow yourself up with Nukes, I win. How do you fare

Not worth even trying to explain what is wronge with that. Does this sound more fair? Quote from different thread (got closed, one already existed like this but)

If anyone has read "do PC's make armies irrelevant" thread, they will know it has been bogged down with comments concerning magic vs. tech. The arguments are extensive and Will take to long to go though, i want to see want other people think other than the 5 on that thread..

Now here are the ground rules. The United States and Canada have magically been taken to a new planet. Don't ask. in this world, the only other country is an exact replica of th US in land mass (and Canada) however it is a mid evil fantasy world. This world has Eberron tech and magic. It has the same population of the US. However it has the same percentage of casters per population as a normal setting. They also have the same parentage of high level PCs as a normal world with that population. Everybody is human. You can't leave the plane but you can summon creatures into it. Magic works fine in this world. And so does the US satellites which are all already up in space. Both sides no they can't leave their world until the other side is destroyed. They also if they died, their souls will be trapped in the core. The losers's souls will be destoryed while the winners will go home. So everyone will fight to the death. Both sides no NOTHING of each other. The tech world is attacking, magic defending. The magic world does not understand the tech (role play) and visia versa. It is remotly possible that soem magic users could learn the ways of tech, but not possible at all in the other way. Any other rules i should put in before we start?
from,
EE

Do you see my point now of giving the sides equal stance to start?

Let you win. Ok sounds good.

Sure it can. Pelor says it can. See here...

"And thus the bringer of light said unto his servant - call unto me in your time of need and I will snatch fire from the sky and give it unto your hand to do with as you will."

I think that qualifies. Nukes are "Fire from the Sky" - so he's just gonna give them to us when we ask for them. You lose.

Ok but unless Pelor take a direct hand into this war (if so we are screwed anyways) it is irrelevant.

You've already conceeded this - stop dredging it up. I'm fighting on MY terms. Not yours. I don't have an army (by your own decree) - so I choose to do the most damage in a fashion of hit and run moves as possible to destroy your infrastructure. And I do it very quickly, and very well.

yeah I agree. If you are fighting a guerrilla war in my land, then armies are irrelevant. But that does not prove your point, which is "Do PC classes make armies irrelevant?" LIke can PC's pull a "House of flying daggers" or a "Hero" and wipe out entire armies in a situation where logically the army should win. In guerrilla war, no matter what class you are, you logically make the army irrelvant. You don't need to be a PC to do that.

Nope. I majored in Philosophy & Computer Science with Minors in Mathematics & Physics.
Congrats.

And just so you know, the concept of the heating coil (toaster) has been about since the Egyptians. Gunpowers has been around since 300 BC. The concept of a vacuum has been around since Aristotle. You're horribly misinformed if you think otherwise.

yeah but they all lacked one thing. Electric power. You know what lets me do? Instead of using a toasting fork, i can just put bread in the toaster. I can just turn on a vacuum. As for guns, i have machine guns. you have flintlocks. Different ball park.

And while it might take time to learn, let me say it again...

Temporally Accellerated Plane... You've acquiesced that these casters could learn such in a few years. Well, they go to a place where 1 Year passes for every Prime-Material Day - with a butt-load of books (not that it's even necessary - keep reading. DONE!

Ok four things.
1. How will you find the books. Functing in moder culture could be hard.
2. What plane are you using? you mentioned the Abyss. Well good luck.
3. How will you get ready? If the nukes come, i think you would have your hands full stoping as many nukes as you can.
4. How would know to do that? Roleplay wise.

If you think you understand medieval culture - you're wrong. The people of today are so far out of touch with the person from 50, let alone 500 years ago it isn't even funny - and what's worse is that we _think_ we know our stuff. I suggest you do a LOT of reading before you continue any further. Seriously, you haven't been on point in anything you've said in this post.

So i am wrong because you say i am. Ok, better throw all those A+ papers out the window. yeah i know that people are out of touch with people from 50 years ago. But we can learn really quickly, why? Becuase we understand our own culture (some of us at least). You can yell at me to do lots of reading before expressing my option and then claim i have not been on point on anything. Based on what? Your opition?

Psychic Reformation: Instantaneous. Here's some of the text:

"When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.

The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones.

The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below)."

And guess what? It only costs 50 xp per Level of rebuild. *does a little dance* I can get all the ranks I need... INSTANTLY!
Niffy. Now to just get the infomation. And how many ranks would you need?
Massive amounts of ranks in history, mathmatics, science, and Culture to say the least. Not to mention all those little details.

Now, are you going to over-rule this as well cause it ruins one of your already weak stances?

Oh i disagree. How awful of me.

from,
EE

Yahzi

2007-03-03, 02:07 AM

But once it has been designed and the schematics created a legion of lesser crafts men can produce the item.
The AK-47 can be made by Chinese peasants...

It allows you to take a untrained group and give them the ability, with a few months of training, to duplicate the effect of some specific wizard spell that would require years of training for the wizard to produce.
Exactly.

That is tech's power. Now it will never match the pure cheese of magic; but it could very well overwhelm magic.

Yahzi

2007-03-03, 02:14 AM

Really a caster will not see a reason to not walk in the front door if they are invisible after all they see no one for the tech people to suspect them.
These casters have INTs of 17+. They're geniuses. They're used to dealing with inscrutable powers like demons and planar entities. And they have various forms of prophecy and divination magic at their disposable.

You're not going to defeat the casters because they're stupid.

(Edit: I see OK already covered this. All I can add is these guys work with magic - they're prepared to accept there are weird, arbitrary, complex things out there they don't understand, but have to be afraid of!)

The caster will kill many, many of the tech army, and might win by breaking their morale. On the other hand, the tech army will simply keep shooting until the caster accidentally gets in the line of fire of a .50 cal machine gun.

Because, you know, that's pretty much how modern armies are trained to work: throw lead at it until you get lucky. :smallbiggrin: And they only have to get lucky once... well, there is Contingency. But ammo is cheaper than a contingency spell, so sooner or later they'll win by attrition.

okpokalypse

2007-03-03, 02:26 AM

Ok so let me get this straight. Your casters are going to look through my entire history, find this one guy, decied "hey lets get a long dead enginer and artist from their world and rez him to help us built planes."

This is why I get frustrated. You jump to immense conclusions, go off on a tangent and then get defensive. I never said I'd be resurrecting anyone. I specifically stated that if the likes of people like Aristotle, DaVinci and DesCartes, who were geniuses, could make such a great leap in understanding, and learn concepts you're citing as Impossible to know in a pre-tech world, why can't my 40+ Int Casters? Casters who can reform their knowledge in an instant. Casters who have years of preparation squeezed into days.*

* I have to thank ET for pointing out to me that Genesis (Arcane) is not impeded by the time normalcy that the Psionic version is - so it IS completely possible to create one's own Temporally accellerated demi-plane via RAW.

1. The adverage american can't find all the states on a map. How many will it take you to NASA HQ or what ever great thinkers you are looking for before attacting attintion.

And that's why I said a # like 60 to charm and take with me for questioning. Sure, 1 person at random likely knows very little, but when you take all the correct knowledge of a sample size of even 20 people on common knowledge, you'll get the right answer from someone a vast majority of the time. Try that exercise youself. Get together with just 10 people and take 5 minutes to try and write all 50 states. No one will get them all, but combined you will almost every time.

2. Ok if 1 random laymen passes his will check, he is looking at a funny man in robes asking weird questions about the smartest men in the country (and who happend to be the people you are fighting. Yeah if one of them call the police... *blah blah blah*

That's not a possibility. I'm charming them. And if they make a save, so what? I'm invis and they've no idea what happened. Deja-Vu maybe. It's a no risk. Once they're charmed, they'll behave just as I require.

3. How is it at all simple...

Again, your only defense is to deny the Casters their intelligence and limit their powers. It's that simple because these are people who have lived a long time, seen other worlds... The modern world has nothing on the plane of mechanus when it comes to machinery and construction. These Casters have dealt with soceities more foreign that 21st century humanity. They've likely had contact with outer-planar creatures, races of elves, dwarves, etc.. If anything, anything, they should know how not to make a mistake in a foreign culture.

Yeah, the middle ages. Where they thought the way to cure the Black Death was to sit in the sewer so the smell would drive the germs away. The middle ages were all just a crawl to catch up with the Roman era, which brought forth the Renaissance era.

Again, you assume everyone in the middle ages was a serf. What about that the first universities in Europe were created in 1080, and more followed suit quickly. Literacy was on the rise from 1080 until the 1400s. There were great stride in art, sculpture, music and architecture.

Gunpower ballistae (cannons) were in full use, showing that the higher military minds were apt to see their advantages. Astronomical instruments, such as the astrolabe, became widely used among scholars. Processing and use of silk grew rapidly, and the advancements in timekeeping were enormous. Ships and navigational instruments advanced at a rapid pace, and longitude and latitude markers - while not perfected until Giovanni Cassini, were a prime area of research throughout the era - as they built upon Aristotle's theorems.

And lastly, the beginning of the modern economy started there, thanks to the Knight's Templar.

So magic is the wild card

I agree - so stop imposing subjective limits on it.

And as to your whole "Edward he Mage" thing, you're still assuming that these guys are idiots. I think for any commoner who comes forward through time as such - you'd be spot on. But not a Wizard. Not a Psion.

But they also could not beat the conquers becuause of the technacial difference between them. They were still using swords against guns. Acording to history, greater tech beats less tech. Take teh 6-day war for example. Israel defeated most of the Middle East. And Isreal was smaller than it is today. Why? Becuase they had far greater tech.

This isn't an argument of greater tech beats lesser tech, for if it were, I think we all know that outcome. This is yet again you trying to draw some parallel to something completely unrealted to the discussion at hand. If the Maya had D&D Magic, they'd have annihilated the conquistadors.

Here is what I am arguing. To a middle age mind, that has not been exposed to modern revalations the idea of traveling space will seem alien.

And again I say you take a very narrow and subjective view. Lets get one thing straight, per D&D rules. These people are not from the middle ages. D&D can be set in a variety of settings, and even if they _were_ from the middle ages, you're talking about high-level PCs that TRAVEL THE PLANES OF EXISTANCE. They enter the Ether and Astral Planes, and travel to the outermost reaches of the infinite multiverse. They're aware of the Prime Material and it's multiple worlds (See DragonLance literature for that - Raistlin discussing seeing other worlds, and travelling across the void of space). These minds cannot be limited by short-sighted definitions as brough about from the imagery of a 13th century peasant!

My God, even Aristarchus of Samos realized the earth was round in 250 BC, and some of his students pondered what might it would take to reach the moon, as well as the speed of the moon's travel around the earth, just as the earth moved around the sun. The scholars knew... They're known for a very long time. The Mayan knew as far back as 1000 BC.

that works both ways. But because you need to sleep for 8 hours (unless you like to sleep in the Abyss) you will have a problem.

Well, not that I have to, but what would be the problem? Magnificent Mansion there and I'm undetectable. Extra-dim spaces take on the time property of the plane they were cast in.

Ok four things.
1. How will you find the books. Functing in moder culture could be hard.
2. What plane are you using? you mentioned the Abyss. Well good luck.
3. How will you get ready? If the nukes come, i think you would have your hands full stoping as many nukes as you can.
4. How would know to do that? Roleplay wise.

1. Umm, I go to a library and get books? Bag of Holding? I can carry a lot. You know the idea of Libraries has been around for over 4 Millenia.

2. My own. Thanks to a little reseach (ET), the Arcane version of Genesis does not restrict the temporal aspect of the plane. I'll make it 100 years for every day. I'll even charm a few of the greater minds from the era I'm in into coming with me to tutor me. Or... If a Psion comes along...

3. Psion casts Fission. It creates a duplicate of himself, dismissable at will, with a 1 Round / Level duration. You see what I'm getting at? I have an over-abundance of time to scry and remote view as I desire. For every round (yes, round) that passes on the prime, I get about 10 Hours. That Duplicate then Manifests Remote View (which works across planes, and costs xp - but the dupe pays it) and manifests attacks through the remote view (again, all part of the power's description). Based on my calculations of PSPs expended per Prime Material Round, he can kill 12 people per Prime Material Round. Every round. That's 144 Dead per Minute. 8500+ an Hour. 200,000+ a Day. Working in conjunction w/ a Seer, I can target every military commander you have, making your ability to command troops, or launch missiles obsolete.

Or with Wizards... I can, every other round (while Invis'd, Fly'd, Protected from Missiles), quickened plane shift to the prime & greater teleport to a nuke (from a round initiated in a temporal plane). Poly any Object the Nuke to a metalliod rock (from previous example - standard action) & grab it (move action). Then Celerity and Plane Shift back. I'm only in the Prime for 6 Seconds. I then take 8 Hours of rest (on the Demi-Plane), and do it again. I now possess all your nukes inside of 36 Hours. Heh, I could also cripple your communications (via satellite poly) inside of 24 hours. That's with 1 Mage. Just give me 5 of em, and "Tech" would be offline in < 5 Hours and be without massive ordinance weapons in 12.

4. It's common sense in any soceity. Kill the leaders and those with command and destroy the ability to communicate. It sends the campaign into chaos, and buys scads of time.