[Magic: The Gathering rpg] discussion thread

[TheThan]

This is the Magic: The Gathering rpg discussion thread. Here is where we will be discussing various topics about this project. We are using the D20 3.5 rules and are essentially making a campaign setting.

Earlier I volunteered to make all the homebrew classes for this setting. I’ve listed the classes I’ve come up with so far. Right now I have no color system in place, and I see very little reason to split base classes up into colors. But I do think we should give prestige classes color requirements. Paladins should be white aligned, berserkers red, assassins are black and so on. Some classes like spellshapers, are in every color so they should not have such requirements.

Now right now I have lumped all the various spell casting classes together under spellcaster. I want a generic spellcaster for this setting. Because I feel it’s the best way to represent various different types of spellcasters present in the card game. But I can work on clerics or druids or what-have-you should everyone decide to go that route. What do the rest of you think?


Base classes
Soldier
Spellcaster
Rogue
Knight
Barbarian

Prestige classes
Paladin
Spellshaper
berserkers
Assassin

[Hyrael]

The spellcaster should have massive opportunities for customization, and not just through spells know. They need bonus feats, and lots of feat options. While, for simplicity's sake, spellcasting should be similair to psionics, with a point system ascribed to each spell. Original D&D spells can be maintained, with a few changes and new spells made a single spell can only be cast 4 times/day, regardless of other factors. And multi-coloring needs to be a viable option as well

Here's a quick monster:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/IN/en-us/Card23073.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=23073#)
Phyrexian Trooper
Medium Construct (Living Construct)
Hit Dice: 3d10+12 (27 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +6 subcutaneous armor, +2 sheild), touch 12, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Masterwork Iron Bastard Sword +7 (1d10+3) or Claw +6 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Masterwork iron Bastard sword +7 (1d10+3) or two claws +6 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Living Construct traits, Glistening Oil Blood, Grafted armor, DR 1/-
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will -1
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 7
Skills: Spot +4, listen +4, profession (soldier) +4
Feats: Weapon Focus (Bastard sword), Toughness, EWP (bastard Sword)B
Environment: Phyrexia
Organization: Solitary, Cadre (2-5), Squad (10-20), Comany (25-35 plus one preist), and Unstoppable Leigon (too many)
Challange Rating: 2
Treasure: Masterwork Bastard Sword and any scrap metal that can be salvaged from the corpse
Alignment: Always Lawful Evil
Advancement: None (usualy)
Level Adjustment: +2
Grafted Armor: A phyrexian trooper's body is encased in a metalic carapace, and posesses specialy designed wide-flattened ribs. It has a +6 armor bonus, and a -2 armor check penalty, as well as DR 1/-. The Physical construction makes it vulnerable to effects such as heat metal, chill metal, and so on (2d6 dmg).
Glistening Oil Blood: When damaged, a Trooper's oil blood leaks from it's veins and cables. A trooper reduced to 2/3rds it's total HP or less is highly flammable, and a damaged trooper hit by a fire-based attack must make a reflex save or catch fire. For every 5 points of fire damage dealt, it tales 1 con damage.

The creature before you is roughly humanoid in shape, and is constructed of what looks like metal and leather, though it is hard to see where the leather ends and the metal begins. pistons, servos, and grears can be seen at it's joints. the torso is large, wide, and spiked on the back, with the head protruding from the chest. the face is like a taught sac, with black, empty holes for eyes. the arms are thin and semi-mechanical, andend in sharp talons. the creature's legs are long and many-jointed, and have nearly no biological parts. it weilds a rusty, notched bastard sword and a oblong, serrated heavy sheild.

The phyrexian trooper is the standard infantry unit of Phyrexia. in addition to fighting, they can march, dig, build, and fulfil other duties. Phyrexian troopers begin life as vat-grown, modified humans called newts. the bodies of these creatures are then horrificaly altered by the vat preists, removing much of the limbs, internal organs, bodily fluids, and part of the skeletal system. eventualy, the creature ceases to be a biological organism and instead becomes a construct, albeit a hightly complex and adaptable one.

Its a shame these babies were never given their own actual card, as you can see them all over Invasion Block artwork. they would probably be:
Phyrexian Trooper 1B
Creature-Horror Soldier
Kicker: B, pay 2 life
When Phyrexian Trooper Comes into play, if you paid the kicker cost, put a +1/+1 counter on it, and it has first strike
2/1

[MeklorIlavator]

you know, most creatures should probably be handled in a way like astral constructs. With the abilities tiered or organized in some way. Because there are way to many creatures to make individual spell/stats for each one. The abilities could be tiered separately for each color,i.e. flying is a first tier ability for blue/white, but 3rd for green, 4th for black, and 5 for red. Multi colored should allow one to grant creatures abilities from the lowest tier(because lower tiered powers cost less/ can be enhanced more). Regular, non summoning spells could be treated in a similar way.

[Hyrael]

Perhaps several monsters would have their own summoning spell along with it's description, with additional abilities and costs (for example, a creature with Flash could be summoned as an immediate action. most creatures cant attack the round they are summoned, ect).

But, most summoning would be done through the much-more-elegant method proposed by Meklor.

[Orzel]

Since no one is playing as a planeswalker, most summoned creatures would require a ton of reagents and equipment or be weak cannon fodder with short lives. Most mortal casters in MTG don't have the ability to summon anything decent (nonzombie/thrull/soproling/minorgoblin/minorelemental). Most of them call/teleport their pets and familiars.

I think the best way to handle color is to have each character choose a color at 1st, 5th and every 5 levels after. Then depending on the colors chosen and the amount of the that color, their class abilites power up. Such as:


Each white : +2 caster level to healing spells, + 2 to AC,
or +4 to Ride and Diplomacy checks.

Each blue : +2 caster level to to beat SR and counterspells, + 2 to Will saving throws, or +4 to Hide and Bluf checks.

Each black : +2 to nercomacy spell DC, + 2 to Fortitude saving throws,
or .+4 to Move Silently and Disguise checks

Each green : +2 caster level to summoning spells, + 8 HP,
or +4 to Handle Animal and Sense Motive checks.

Each red : +1 to evocation spell DC, + 2 to weapon damage,
or +4 to Jump and Intimidate checks.

Each colorless : a Bonus Feat

Also many feats would color requirements added to them. Power Attack now needs you to be white, black, red, or green. Combat Expertise requires white, blue, black, or green. Point Blank Shot has no color requirement.

[MeklorIlavator]

Perhaps several monsters would have their own summoning spell along with it's description, with additional abilities and costs (for example, a creature with Flash could be summoned as an immediate action. most creatures cant attack the round they are summoned, ect).


That would make sense for "legendary ceratures", or special summons(ones that have special summoning conditions). Also, abilities like flash and flying should be tiered.

Finally, a color should not have access to every ability, which would encourage multi-color specialization.

Blue

flying
f
First strike
f
TrampleGreen

Trample
f
Flying,first srike
regeneration
fWhite

First strike
Flying
double strike
f
f

[Skydiving_Ninja]

Heres a race!

Viashino *
~+2 DEX, -2 WIS, -2 INT *
~Medium size *
~Base land speed of 35ft *
~Low-Light Vision *
~Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4 slash/pierce) and a bite (1d4 slash/pierce/bludgeon) *
~+2 to Survival
~Automatic Languages: Common and Dragonic, ~Bonus: Ogre, Goblin, Orc, Dwarven
Favored Class: Barbarian *

[Hyrael]

Since no one is playing as a planeswalker, most summoned creatures would require a ton of reagents and equipment or be weak cannon fodder with short lives. Most mortal casters in MTG don't have the ability to summon anything decent (nonzombie/thrull/soproling/minorgoblin/minorelemental). Most of them call/teleport their pets and familiars.

I think the best way to handle color is to have each character choose a color at 1st, 5th and every 5 levels after. Then depending on the colors chosen and the amount of the that color, their class abilites power up. Such as:


Each white : +2 caster level to healing spells, + 2 to AC,
or +4 to Ride and Diplomacy checks.

Each blue : +2 caster level to to beat SR and counterspells, + 2 to Will saving throws, or +4 to Hide and Bluf checks.

Each black : +2 to nercomacy spell DC, + 2 to Fortitude saving throws,
or .+4 to Move Silently and Disguise checks

Each green : +2 caster level to summoning spells, + 8 HP,
or +4 to Handle Animal and Sense Motive checks.

Each red : +1 to evocation spell DC, + 2 to weapon damage,
or +4 to Jump and Intimidate checks.

Each colorless : a Bonus Feat

Also many feats would color requirements added to them. Power Attack now needs you to be white, black, red, or green. Combat Expertise requires white, blue, black, or green. Point Blank Shot has no color requirement.
Perople dont gain more colors over time. any given person has a "mana essence," whether or not they can cast spells. If they later take up spellcasting, the color they take up is always that color, though they can use other colors and not have that essence. It helps if the other color is allied, but a blue mage could cast red spells, using memories of some time they spent in the mountains. but, this blue mage would Never have the intuitive understanding of red mana required to truly master red magic. Remember when jaya ballard was taught the Unsummoning? or creatures of one color who's activated abilities require mana of another color? SOme people are naturally multicolored, and would begin learning magic with a blend of their colors to make a uique style (metacasters, biomancers, lawmages, mindbreakers, ect)

and, a given mage doesnt have the luxury of being able to have say, acess to pure red mana. most mages use a mixture of childhood memories(whatever colored mana they require) and get the rest from the land beneath their feet. so, a mage on his native ground is a powerful force. Experienced mages can pull and use massive ammounts of mana from wherever they stand, with little effort given to connect. and, some places are richer or impoverished than others, some places and memories take so much effort to glean mana from they actually cause mana burn, while others do not regain their potency as quickly after being used, and some places are so powerful as to not just provide mana, but additional powers as well.

And, a mage can only draw mana from their memories as long as the land they remember exists. this doesnt matter for most mages, but for extremely long-lived ones it does. But, plenty of mages dont spend much time wandering around, forging their connection to the land. they meditate on the memories they already have, forging a stronger connection and gaining more mana without leaving their towers.

[heretic]

What's wrong with the base classes as they are?

I think that they could be modified by the color thing, but they're already fairly compatable. Just use UA class variants like the Prestige Paladin to add flavor. The only thing that needs revamping is the magic system.

[Orzel]

Hyrael: It was mostly a fluff idea to make noncaster have color. White soiders and green warrior fight totally different . I didn't what to gimp them by makes colocred warriors take crossclass skills just to keep in color. Then we could add color feats and class feature.


Anthem [General]
Choose White or Black

Prerequisites
White or Black color style, Aura of Courage

Benefit
Creatures of the chosen color within your Aura of Courage gain a +2 bonus on all attacks and damage.
heretic: A lot of base class don't work the same in MTG. Druids don't willdshape often or at all. Sorcerer is the D&D terms are rare. Divine classes don't turn or rebuke.

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't think I have the skills for homebrewing, but maybe we should think about how Magic in MTG is represented in the stories. In the stories, mana is drawn from memories of the land. If you lived on a mountain all your life, you could easily use red mana. If you lived at the edge of a swamp and a forest, you could use black and green mana. With meditation and practise, our red mage could learn to use blue mana (island) or white mana (plains). In the MTG-verse it's like the Force. you can either cast magic, or you can't. The only restrictions on what colours you can use are your own. A wizard with enough time could be a master of all five colours, like Jodah Archmage Eternal.

For more information on how MTG-Magic works, I'd recommend The Gathering Dark by Jeff Grubb. It really explains a lot.

[Shadow of the Sun]

RMS, you have been shanghai'd into helping work out the kinks and the fluff for the magic system.

[RMS Oceanic]

Doh! :p

For the Spellshaper class, I was thinking: a Spellshaper is a mage that can, by sacrificing other spells (discarding cards), generate abilities that closely resemble other spells. Example, Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/166.html) can emulate the effects of the cards Pyroblast (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/262.html), Incinerate (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/242.html) and Inferno (http://magiccards.info/4e/en/223.html) by discarding a card. At first level, a Spellshaper would probably choose a spell they can emulate, and as a standard action, could sacrifice a prepared spell slot of the same level as the spell to use a spell-like ability. As they level up, they can choose more spells to emulate.

How does that look? I'm working with broad strokes, so someone else can fill in the details.

[Hyrael]

Ah. actually, I like that idea. I never understood exactly what spellshapers were until now. they're task mages. They know only a few spells, but know them intimately, and devote their abilities to other persuits as well, and sell thier skills to the highest bidder.

So, the spellshaper would have limited spell selection and little means for multi-colored-ness, and would have several especially favored spells (perhaps like the wu-jen's ability to permanently apply metamagic feats to a chosen spell.

cleric BAB, d6 or D8 hd, 4+int skill points, proficient with all simple weapons and one martial weapon of their choice. Perhaps a maximum of 4 favored spells, 1 every five levels, and the ability to change one previous selection each time they make a new one. their spellcasting should be capped at the equivalent of 6th level.

Perhaps all spellcasting classes should have a system similair to the Spirit Shaman, a spells known list, and a "spells called to mind" list, that can be changed every day.

[TheThan]

Sorry I’ve been gone guys. I’ve been busy and not feeling well. But I’m back, at least for a while.

RMS nailed how spellshapers work in the cards and we seem to have at least an idea of what sort of mechanics to give them. I like what we have so far. I’ve already made a solider class; it’s a modified version of the basic dnd fighter.
I gave the class heal, listen and spot as class skills and increased their skill points to 4+ int modifier. I am also thinking of opening up the list of bonus feats to any feat they qualify for, instead of just the basic fighter feats. I think it will help balance out the soldier to the other spell casters, or at the very least they will have some useful skills to invest in. what do you think?

[Xerxes]

I've just been struck by this thought myself, and stumbled over this thread. A theory I've had about doing M:tG magic in something like realistic-to-the-cardgame terms would be to include mana "essences" as bought like feats or with something akin to WoD "freebie points" during character creation. Having a particular colour gives you access to those spells and abilities (nonmages have mana-activated abilities too).

This would require a separate "mana pool" stat, which I envision as being quite low. Perhaps if we say 8 or 10 points for a starting spellcaster, with the cost of buying colours above your first 2/3 points each, with remaining points being a maximum mana pool (costs for spells as printed on the cards).

Not sure how often this would replenish, if we want something close to M:tG it could be a per round limit (with actions being the limiting factor on spells and mana channeling (used for racial abilities and artefacts)). This would make those abilities a bit overusable, but it would bring things close to the feel of the game with mana that untaps etc. If we want less magic involved, the recharge rate can be slower if need be, although I personally hate the "lazy mages" that the D&D system creates.

Note that I've purposefully kept the mana capabilities of characters low; I don't want spellcasters to be unbalancing, as I'd like to keep non-magical characters a playable possibility, and also stop some of the more RPG-breaking cards from being possibilities. Maybe have an increase of 1 in the mana pool of characters every level or two, but nothing more than that.

As an extension of this, "destroy creature" spells may be too powerful to allow, as it would mean that important characters would die too easily.

And can we PLEASE ban Slivers as playable races? A Sliver party would be truly broken.

DISCLAIMER: My personal project is to develop a Mirrodin block RPG, so things may not be quite as universal as people might want.