TPW, got a new DM now. Needing help with Nymph/druid Gestalt concept

[shadowseve]

So my previous GM decided to wipe the party with 2 level 20's a necro cleric and a evil druid. Nedless to say at lv 7 it was not much of a fight. Furious with the DM's previous shenanigans we booted her from the seat and got another DM. This one is a lot more experienced and just finished his campaign and agreed to dm for us. He is a great friend of one of our other pc's. For craps and giggles, and a little challenge, we all agreed to do gestalt characters. However; there was a catch. To add some excitement one part of the character was to be a monster race. So for fun the dm chose several monsters with a LA of up to +7 wrote them on a scrap sheet of paper and put them into a hat for us to randomly select. Since we died at level 7 the campaign is starting at level 7. We all thought this would be a neat idea.

So it comes to my turn and I draw a Nymph. I couldn't help but laugh. Then I started to think this could actually be a cool concept. Beauty and grace as a weapon. Then I was somehow reminded of the movie Poison Ivy staring Drew Barrymore and got me thinking even further: somehow taking the actual plant poison ivy and using poison with venomfire to augment this theme of deadly beauty. The dm wants a full concept for his approval so he can build personal stories and side plots into the campaign and here's where I need help. I'm not wanting a slutty character but one who is as deadly as she is beautiful.

I'm thinking of taking cloistered cleric as one of my classes with the spell(possibly) domain and the pleasure domain (further enhancing the theme of beauty as a tool) I'm also thinking of taking the spontaneous domain as an afc. I want her to be more of a caster character that would revere Lastai. The dm is not forcing me to only choose her domains. I'm free to choose as long as it makes since for the character to take them. The cleric is up for discussion if there is a better alternative but I'm almost set on taking cleric levels. I'm also thinking sorcerer due to the charisma but still think the cleric is a better fit.

Here is the real difficult part: the Nymph casts divine spells as a level 7th druid. I also want to embrace that side of her, hence the poison ivy idea.( i know she's not a full blown druid only that she casts spells as 7th level druid.) How would that stack if I was to take levels of druid on top of my "monster" class? Would the caster levels stack as far as spells go? would it be better to stack cleric levels on the monster class and go strait druid for the other class? Would that be allowed since the nymph can already cast divine spells "as a druid"? If the druid caster levels stack how would that effect the other druid abilities such as animal companion and wild shape? Or would it effect them at all and just start her as a first level "true" druid at lv 8? This is the $1,000,000 question for me.

Any suggestions would be nice.
Again I don't want slutty rank porn stuff, just a deadly beautiful ass kicker that somhow incorporates vines with poison.:smallbiggrin:

Hopefully this wall of text made sense.

Also is there a way besides increasing CHA to increase the dc save of her blinding beauty and stunning grace to make them viable later game?

[thedmring]

So you decided to go along with the most stupid idea, you're playing a nymph and you want help? pft...:smallsigh:

[shadowseve]

So you decided to go along with the most stupid idea, you're playing a nymph and you want help? pft...:smallsigh:

If you have nothing to add then you don't have to comment. If no answers come I'll tell the dm it's a no go and I don't want that concept.

[Khatoblepas]

I made a plant-based Nymph character many moons ago (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/2063941). She's got your vines and your dangerous beauty and mindless minions that serve her every whim. You're even armed with musk puff and vine whip attacks. And it's just one side of the gestalt, so you're free to include a whole other build on the other side.

For your other queries, innate spellcasting stacks with class spellcasting:


Associated Class Levels

Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Other abilities do not stack, only the spellcasting.

I'm afraid that there's not much you can do with Venomfire unless you have a natural attack with a natural poison attack, and there are very few builds that can really take advantage of it (they're mostly fleshraker dinosaurs, and that's no good).

To increase the potency of Blinding Beauty/Stunning Glance, you have Ability Focus (+2), and the Veil of Allure (another +2), and remember that supernatural abilities work on the formula of 10+1/2HD+Cha, and according to the Rules Compendium, that's all HD, not just racial. You'll be fine save-wise.

[Jeff the Green]

Um... is your DM aware that a nymph druid 1 (say) wouldn't be a level eight character, but a level 14 one? You have to add RHD and LA to get ECL.

[thedmring]

Um... is your DM aware that a nymph druid 1 (say) wouldn't be a level eight character, but a level 14 one? You have to add RHD and LA to get ECL.


obviously not. Dm is prob an idiot. Like the player. :smallsigh:

[HammeredWharf]

Sounds like a fun campaign idea, but you'd probably need to make a "nymphs as characters" entry to play as one. As mentioned above, they're not ECL 7, but ECL 13. Depending on how good the other templates are, you could just strip her of her druid casting and call it a day.

[shadowseve]

Sounds like a fun campaign idea, but you'd probably need to make a "nymphs as characters" entry to play as one. As mentioned above, they're not ECL 7, but ECL 13. Depending on how good the other templates are, you could just strip her of her druid casting and call it a day.

Could I not simply state that I leveled as a nymph since the other class portion will prob be a cleric 7. An ecl of 13 seems like a harsh penalty since the nymph is a level 7 cr. If not then it's simply not worth it.

[HammeredWharf]

Could I not simply state that I leveled as a nymph since the other class portion will prob be a cleric 7. An ecl of 13 seems like a harsh penalty since the nymph is a level 7 cr. If not then it's simply not worth it.

Eh, don't ask me. They're your houserules. If you're getting the +7 LA for free, I suppose you could fill one half of your gestalt with her nymph HD and one class level, but this is definitely an "ask your DM" situation. After all, he's the one who gave you an ECL 13 race.

[Jeff the Green]

Sounds like a fun campaign idea, but you'd probably need to make a "nymphs as characters" entry to play as one. As mentioned above, they're not ECL 7, but ECL 13. Depending on how good the other templates are, you could just strip her of her druid casting and call it a day.

Alternatively, use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8167378&postcount=278) monster class. Either way, I'd advise putting a passive class on the other side. Given your high Charisma, binder isn't a bad choice, and you can follow your nymph levels with the divine Anima Mage adaptation and switch to something like an incarnum class on your binder side. Other interesting options would be dips in Battle Dancer, Marshall (pick Motivate Dexterity), Paladin of Freedom, Mystic Wanderer, etc. for Charisma to EVERYTHING.

My choice would be to use that monster class and go Nymph 7/Anima Mage 10/Mystic Wanderer 1/Contemplative 1/Something 1//Binder 7/Marshal 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Incarnate 4/Battle Dancer 1/Binder +3. That gets you 20th-level Charisma-based druid casting; four vestiges of any level; four soulmelds, four essentia, and one bind; Charisma to AC (thrice), saves (twice), and initiative; a domain; and turn undead. You should load up on metamagic to use with your Anima Mage ability and grab Divine Metamagic.

I suppose another option would be to split the LA and RHD on different sides of the gestalt. I wouldn't allow it as DM, though, because you'd end up having casting a level ahead of a druid (6 RHD + 1 level of a PrC)

[shadowseve]

I say forget it. Not worth it.

[nedz]

Just play a Level 7 Druid, or Cleric of Valarian. Blinding Beauty is a level 4 Druid/Fey domain spell.

A Sorcerer / Wild Soul, with Arcane Disciple(Fey), would be a similar concept, but you wouldn't get Blinding Beauty until 9th.

[Jeff the Green]

I say forget it. Not worth it.

Check out that monster class I linked before you say that. It gives you basically all the nymph's abilities, just lower stats (+4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha instead of +6 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha) and DR (HD/2 instead of 10).

[shadowseve]

Alternatively, use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8167378&postcount=278) monster class. Either way, I'd advise putting a passive class on the other side. Given your high Charisma, binder isn't a bad choice, and you can follow your nymph levels with the divine Anima Mage adaptation and switch to something like an incarnum class on your binder side. Other interesting options would be dips in Battle Dancer, Marshall (pick Motivate Dexterity), Paladin of Freedom, Mystic Wanderer, etc. for Charisma to EVERYTHING.

My choice would be to use that monster class and go Nymph 7/Anima Mage 10/Mystic Wanderer 1/Contemplative 1/Something 1//Binder 7/Marshal 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Incarnate 4/Battle Dancer 1/Binder +3. That gets you 20th-level Charisma-based druid casting; four vestiges of any level; four soulmelds, four essentia, and one bind; Charisma to AC (thrice), saves (twice), and initiative; a domain; and turn undead. You should load up on metamagic to use with your Anima Mage ability and grab Divine Metamagic.

I suppose another option would be to split the LA and RHD on different sides of the gestalt. I wouldn't allow it as DM, though, because you'd end up having casting a level ahead of a druid (6 RHD + 1 level of a PrC)

Link won't pull up on phone but this does give me something to look into. Thanks. I'm new monsters as races and had no clue where to start.

[shadowseve]

Check out that monster class I linked before you say that. It gives you basically all the nymph's abilities, just lower stats (+4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha instead of +6 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha) and DR (HD/2 instead of 10).
Question how did you calculate the nymph's bonus to abilities?

[Jeff the Green]

Question how did you calculate the nymph's bonus to abilities?

With a few exceptions (and they'll tell you if so), you subtract 11 from odd scores and 10 from even ones.

[Bronk]

Well, the rules for gestalt are pretty sparse and open to DM interpretation, but what is there suggests that you get everything from both sides of the advancement tree. If your DM goes along with that (and I don't see why they wouldn't, since giving you all the powerful monsters as a base was their idea) you could do a simple gestalt, nymph on one side (and your cloistered cleric level) and druid on the other. You would start the game with 14th level casting, wildshape, and the ability to get a poisonous animal companion (like the fleshraker) so you could use venomfire.

Even if you're restricted to caster level seven, with druid magic you can theme yourself up with all sorts of plant/thorn themed spells, like 'brambles', 'entangle', 'entangling staff', 'plant growth', 'command plants' and 'thornskin'

If you do get the higher caster level, you would also have access to 'wall of thorns' and 'plant body'. Actually, 'plant body' sounds thematically spot on for you, and I'm sure you could find a way to use the cleric level to DMM persist it as well.

Oh, you might want to find out if the 'unearthly grace' feature works while wildshaped too...

Sounds like fun, either way!

[shadowseve]

With a few exceptions (and they'll tell you if so), you subtract 11 from odd scores and 10 from even ones.

Thank you.

I think that link will work perfectly. It's a similar idea of what was said before, "simply strip the druid levels away and call it a day." It just tones down the ability modifiers a bit.

I seriously don't know how you guys know all of these different classes and how to optimize like that. But thank you for the tip. This gives me a good starting place.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, the rules for gestalt are pretty sparse and open to DM interpretation, but what is there suggests that you get everything from both sides of the advancement tree. If your DM goes along with that (and I don't see why they wouldn't, since giving you all the powerful monsters as a base was their idea) you could do a simple gestalt, nymph on one side (and your cloistered cleric level) and druid on the other. You would start the game with 14th level casting, wildshape, and the ability to get a poisonous animal companion (like the fleshraker) so you could use venomfire.

Doesn't work. One of the rules of gestalt is that if both classes advance a feature, accrues at the faster rate, not the sum. Since both would be advancing druid casting, you'd end up with casting as a level 7 druid at level 7, with a lot of wasted levels.

[KorbeltheReader]

See my assumption when you said your GM suggesting gestalt with monster races was that half of your gestalt would be the monster race. Basically you're getting a high LA monster race for free, rather than 7 levels of a class AND a LA +7 monster race for free. Maybe check with your GM to see if that's what he meant?

[Gildedragon]

Bard would be good for the non-nymph side of the gestalt. The focus on enchantment and being mind controlling fits nicely with the nymph
Alternatively you could go into prestige-bard from any arcane spellcaster you like (sorcerer? Sha'ir?)

[Bronk]

Doesn't work. One of the rules of gestalt is that if both classes advance a feature, accrues at the faster rate, not the sum. Since both would be advancing druid casting, you'd end up with casting as a level 7 druid at level 7, with a lot of wasted levels.

Well no... you have seven levels to work with, and being a nymph takes six levels and grants 7th level casting. If the seventh character level was druid, it would add one caster level to that, for a total of 8. Eight is the minimum druid caster level that can be achieved without asking the DM.

If the DM decides that the caster levels are spread out fairly evenly for each of the six nymph HD, it would also work that way. This would be a nice, non overpowered choice for the DM to make.

If on the other hand, the DM decides that the 7 caster levels kick in at a particular level, whether it's first or whatever, druid levels taken on the other side would stack for caster level. I'm not sure why a DM would allow this, but there you go.

I like the unofficial nymph monster class that was linked to, but it shortchanges you for ability scores and adds an extra level, probably because it's trying to make up for the 7th level casting and ditching the level adjustment, which in this case the DM has tossed out already.

Which is awesome, by the way. Sounds like a fun game!

I also agree that Bard or some other Charisma casting stat class would be a good choice for gestalting!

[fishyfishyfishy]

Perhaps your DM is intending for you to take your RHD on one side of the gestalt and apply your LA to the other side? This is not normally how it works, but it seems reasonable to allow. With such a setup you could dive right into a PrC that advances druid casting and start progressing another class on the other side at level 8.

[John Longarrow]

shadowseve,
Before we can give you any real advice, please check with your DM on how he wants to deal with both Racial HD and LA.
I've always had RHD and LA stack on one side in gestalt, with the RHD being what starts at "1st level". This tends to work very well for the groups I've done this with.
If you DM is going to go "OK, for each of the first 6 levels you get to mix your RHD and your class levels, but then you add 7 levels on top (for an ECL of 14 in your case), it is NOT worth it.

[Honest Tiefling]

I have to wonder if a Half-Nymph (Fiend Folio has a half-fey that could be adapted) would work with the concept? I personally find it quite nifty.

[Gildedragon]

I have to wonder if a Half-Nymph (Fiend Folio has a half-fey that could be adapted) would work with the concept? I personally find it quite nifty.
There is a Half Nymph Template in Dragon magazine in the Strange Bedfellows article.
it has the blinding beauty, and bonuses up the wazoo. LA 3 iirc

[shadowseve]

shadowseve,
Before we can give you any real advice, please check with your DM on how he wants to deal with both Racial HD and LA.
I've always had RHD and LA stack on one side in gestalt, with the RHD being what starts at "1st level". This tends to work very well for the groups I've done this with.
If you DM is going to go "OK, for each of the first 6 levels you get to mix your RHD and your class levels, but then you add 7 levels on top (for an ECL of 14 in your case), it is NOT worth it.

I spoke with him and this is how he is planning on doing it.

[John Longarrow]

I spoke with him and this is how he is planning on doing it.

So to help with a build, how is he doing it?

P.S. Any chance you can trade out Nymph for Raksasha? One more RHD, but that's 7 OUTSIDER VS 6 fey. Outsider is far better. The goodies you get for the cat are a lot nicer for most adventurers to.

[WinWin]

Eldeen Plantgrafter is a feat from Magic of Eberron. Most of the plant themed grafts may not be of interest to you, but the Grappling Vine and Spores are something you might find useful.

As for turning the vine poisonous for venomfire...No easy way to do that. Your DM might allow you to do that with a plant graft of your own design, based off another type of graft, but you're veering toward homebrew territory. As Venomfire only effects a creatures 'naturally produced' poisons, simply coating it with a poison produced by another appendage might work, as would some Totemist soulmelds. A higher level option would be to use Venom's Gift to make your natural attacks poisonous, but that would require Wildshape and other Wild feats.

Easiest method would be to use Tentacle Whip Symbionts and ask if you can refluff them as vines. These are creatures, not typical magical items, so obtaining them might be problematic, especially as they are typically reserved for Eberron's Daelkyr.

[shadowseve]

So to help with a build, how is he doing it?

P.S. Any chance you can trade out Nymph for Raksasha? One more RHD, but that's 7 OUTSIDER VS 6 fey. Outsider is far better. The goodies you get for the cat are a lot nicer for most adventurers to.

the rakasha's are vicious, but we're sticking with the nymph. I should have elaborated what the DM ruled earlier. His words "I know per raw you add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. However; I disagree with it in some cases so I'm overruling it. A nymph is a normal cr 7. Imposing a ecl of 13 for it is harsh IMO. A level 13 character could easily pass the saves and own it. So have fun with it and don't sweat it. I'm only going to count it as a lv 7."

[John Longarrow]

shadowseve,
OK, that makes a lot more sense. See if he's cool with you having the racial HD and LA (now 1) one ONE side of the build. This leaves you 7 levels to play with. As this is gestalt, I'd suggest a build something like this;

L1 RHD / Sorcerer(1)
L2 RHD / Sorcerer(2)
L3 RHD / Sorcerer(3)
L4 RHD / Sorcerer(4)
L5 RHD / Sorcerer(5)
L6 RHD / Mind Bender(1)
L7 ECL / Sorcerer(6)

This gives you 7th level casting in both Druid and Sorcerer (or wizard, but with your CHA I'm thinking Sorcerer may be better.
You wind up with a BAB of +4 this way, so you can start playing gish class progression on the sorcerer side to keep BAB/HP up.
Starting L8, you can go spellsword, then (if you grab combat casting) Abjurant Champion for 5 while you push Druid for L8-13.

[shadowseve]

shadowseve,
OK, that makes a lot more sense. See if he's cool with you having the racial HD and LA (now 1) one ONE side of the build. This leaves you 7 levels to play with. As this is gestalt, I'd suggest a build something like this;

L1 RHD / Sorcerer(1)
L2 RHD / Sorcerer(2)
L3 RHD / Sorcerer(3)
L4 RHD / Sorcerer(4)
L5 RHD / Sorcerer(5)
L6 RHD / Mind Bender(1)
L7 ECL / Sorcerer(6)

This gives you 7th level casting in both Druid and Sorcerer (or wizard, but with your CHA I'm thinking Sorcerer may be better.
You wind up with a BAB of +4 this way, so you can start playing gish class progression on the sorcerer side to keep BAB/HP up.
Starting L8, you can go spellsword, then (if you grab combat casting) Abjurant Champion for 5 while you push Druid for L8-13.

yeah to me his ruling makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the help I think I have enough to go on.

[Jeff the Green]

shadowseve,
OK, that makes a lot more sense. See if he's cool with you having the racial HD and LA (now 1) one ONE side of the build. This leaves you 7 levels to play with. As this is gestalt, I'd suggest a build something like this;

L1 RHD / Sorcerer(1)
L2 RHD / Sorcerer(2)
L3 RHD / Sorcerer(3)
L4 RHD / Sorcerer(4)
L5 RHD / Sorcerer(5)
L6 RHD / Mind Bender(1)
L7 ECL / Sorcerer(6)

This gives you 7th level casting in both Druid and Sorcerer (or wizard, but with your CHA I'm thinking Sorcerer may be better.
You wind up with a BAB of +4 this way, so you can start playing gish class progression on the sorcerer side to keep BAB/HP up.
Starting L8, you can go spellsword, then (if you grab combat casting) Abjurant Champion for 5 while you push Druid for L8-13.

The problem is that druid and sorcerer are both active classes and gestalt doesn't give you extra actions in which to use all those spells unless you go factotum. I still recommend putting some nice passive classes on the other side. Actually, that build I posted earlier works even better now thanks to the higher Charisma.

[fishyfishyfishy]

The problem is that druid and sorcerer are both active classes and gestalt doesn't give you extra actions in which to use all those spells unless you go factotum. I still recommend putting some nice passive classes on the other side. Actually, that build I posted earlier works even better now thanks to the higher Charisma.

Druid + Sorcerer works just fine in this situation with the right spell selection. Choosing awesome Sorc/Wiz buff spells like Mage Armor, Haste, Wraithstrike, etc, will make him an excellent gish. He can pick up Arcane Strike as another way to burn though arcane slots since he'll have plenty of spells per day from two full casting classes.

[Jeff the Green]

Druid + Sorcerer works just fine in this situation with the right spell selection. Choosing awesome Sorc/Wiz buff spells like Mage Armor, Haste, Wraithstrike, etc, will make him an excellent gish. He can pick up Arcane Strike as another way to burn though arcane slots since he'll have plenty of spells per day from two full casting classes.

Sure, if he were actually a druid or could plausibly Gish without a standard Gish build. (At which point, why not just put a martial class on the other side?) Nymphs have a smaller HD, worse BAB, no animal companion, and no wildshape compared to druid. The only synergy there is Charisma.

Dryads are much better off treated as primary casters.

[shadowseve]

One of the things is I still want to embrace the druid side of her. due to eggynacks advice I've kind of fallen in love with that class. I would like to still embrace that somehow. I'm also wanting to find a way to get some plant shifting so I can kind of embrace the whole "poison Ivy" theme I originally had. I looked at a little bit at the binder build and other builds that was suggested, however; they seem to deviate away from the theme that I have. It do look powerful and it does embrace her very high charisma. We've got a staggering 60 point buy out for attributes. The dm said we're going to really need to be boosted a bit. So I'm still no 100% sure how to stay CG build a strong build and keep the theme. To me theme > than complete power as long as the build is viable. Kind of like my previous druid was more melee based and based around being a bear.

So TLDR

Beauty as a weapon, still want to embrace the natural and druid side of the Nymph.

don't know if it's possible or not though. :smallbiggrin:

[WinWin]

While you are advancing Nymph HD, take Battle Dancer on the other half of the Gestalt.

Charisma to AC twice (in no armor), full BAB and most of the benefits of the class will be usable if you change forms. You don't need to stay in Battle Dancer, but it will cover some of the limitations of your Fey HD for a few levels. Dancing into combat might be thematic. It would also help provide entry into Fist of the Forest, which ties into your preferred 'nature' theme.

So by level 7, you could have Battle Dancer 4/Fist of the Forest 3//Fey 7, then take your build from there. Charisma to AC twice + Constitution to AC is pretty neat, especially with Druid buffs.

lol. Pick up Mystic Wanderer in order to get an additional + Charisma proface/consecrated bonus to AC.

[Jeff the Green]

While you are advancing Nymph HD, take Battle Dancer on the other half of the Gestalt.

Charisma to AC twice (in no armor), full BAB and most of the benefits of the class will be usable if you change forms. You don't need to stay in Battle Dancer, but it will cover some of the limitations of your Fey HD for a few levels. Dancing into combat might be thematic. It would also help provide entry into Fist of the Forest, which ties into your preferred 'nature' theme.

So by level 7, you could have Battle Dancer 4/Fist of the Forest 3//Fey 7, then take your build from there. Charisma to AC twice + Constitution to AC is pretty neat, especially with Druid buffs.

lol. Pick up Mystic Wanderer in order to get an additional + Charisma proface/consecrated bonus to AC.

You'll need two utterly irrelevant feats for FotF and you'd have an obnoxious code of conduct (and since Constitution isn't your strong suit, doing more with Charisma is better), and you really shouldn't take more than one level of Battle Dancer.

If you want to play up they fey/beauty theme, Battle Dancer 1/Paladin of Freedom 2-4/Marshal 1-3/Something 1 would get you Charisma to saves and AC (twice, with nymph), Charisma to Initiative for you and your allies, and either Turn Undead (with which you can have a lot of fun using DMM), or another minor aura like Charisma to damage while flanking. Weaponize your beauty.

Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of fey-like PrCs. Holt Warden is thematically appropriate and mechanically sound, unlike its Fist of the Forest allies (I cannot properly express the contempt I have for that class). If you feel like dipping ranger, you can go for Eldeen Ranger (Greensingers, obviously) and get Charisma to saves three times. If you're okay being exalted, Sentinal of Bharrai is awesome (bears!). (If you do go exalted, Talya's Vow of Nudity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?45529-Nude-Bard-Sublime-Chord-Heartwarder-Vow-of-Poverty-Build) is appropriate for a nymph, though possibly not for your table.)

[WinWin]

The FotF code of conduct is largely irrelevant for a Nymph, who probably lives outdoors and lives on Goodberries anyway. Higher levels of Battle Dancer gain you a few movement related abilities and when combined with Fist of the Forest, Ghost Touch fists, but you probably have better things to do with your character than engage in a flowery capoeira exhibition. Ranger, Marshall and variant Paladin are all excellent suggestions that synergise with attributes or theme.


As for caster prc's with a plant theme, there is Verdant Lord which allows wildshape into a treant at 6th level in the class. Not exactly Poison Ivy, but worth mentioning for the sake of completeness.

Plant Body is a Druid spell you should look at. For proper plant wild shape you either need the Enhance Wild Shape spell or 7 levels of the Master of Many Forms prc. Shifter is a prc from 3rd edition that gains a Wild Shape (plant) at 3rd level, but it is basically MoMF before the 3.5 update.

The easiest method of obtaining Wild Shape would be to take the Abolisher prc, which would grant you a limited version of the ability with 1 level, or 5 levels of the Druid class which will grant you the standard Wild Shape ability.

Taking MoMF or Shifter on the non-caster side of your gestalt, might be an option for higher levels. While it grants you Wild Shape options you probably are not interested in, it will enable you to meet the size requirements of many of the plant monsters in the Monter Manuals.

[shadowseve]

You'll need two utterly irrelevant feats for FotF and you'd have an obnoxious code of conduct (and since Constitution isn't your strong suit, doing more with Charisma is better), and you really shouldn't take more than one level of Battle Dancer.

If you want to play up they fey/beauty theme, Battle Dancer 1/Paladin of Freedom 2-4/Marshal 1-3/Something 1 would get you Charisma to saves and AC (twice, with nymph), Charisma to Initiative for you and your allies, and either Turn Undead (with which you can have a lot of fun using DMM), or another minor aura like Charisma to damage while flanking. Weaponize your beauty.

Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of fey-like PrCs. Holt Warden is thematically appropriate and mechanically sound, unlike its Fist of the Forest allies (I cannot properly express the contempt I have for that class). If you feel like dipping ranger, you can go for Eldeen Ranger (Greensingers, obviously) and get Charisma to saves three times. If you're okay being exalted, Sentinal of Bharrai is awesome (bears!). (If you do go exalted, Talya's Vow of Nudity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?45529-Nude-Bard-Sublime-Chord-Heartwarder-Vow-of-Poverty-Build) is appropriate for a nymph, though possibly not for your table.)

Yeah I've come to the same conclusion on there isn't much to go on the theme for this character.
I don't mind playing exalted characters as my druid was a vop build due to extremely low money in the game. At level 7 each party averaged maybe two hundred gold? Due to having a celestial companion imo being a NG druid was better from an optimization stand point as well. I'm seeing if I can't possibly drop the monster class alltogether and pick up on a true druid build and having something else on the gestalt side Maybe barbarian for the rage and eventually go into master of many forms.

So something like druid 6/planar shepherd 10/druid 4// Barbarian10 (or some other prestige class thrown in with barbarian)/master of many forms (looks fun) I really want to finish my druid I had and I've almost convinced my dm to let me kick the monster all together.

[Agamemmnoth]

someone suggested to me a few builds similar.

If you ditch the nymph. I think

Druid6/planar shepherd 10/druid 4// barbarian 5(for 2/rage and improved uncanny)/ warshaper 5/ master of many forms 10 I think would pretty much own anything thrown at you.

[eggynack]

Druid6/planar shepherd 10/druid 4// barbarian 5(for 2/rage and improved uncanny)/ warshaper 5/ master of many forms 10 I think would pretty much own anything thrown at you.
To this, and the above similar build, you're not allowed to have PrC's on both sides of a gestalt at once, and I don't know of any particular reason to take six levels of druid before planar shepherd, instead of five.

[shadowseve]

To this, and the above similar build, you're not allowed to have PrC's on both sides of a gestalt at once, and I don't know of any particular reason to take six levels of druid before planar shepherd, instead of five.


Eggy I was hoping you would pop in.

You're right about the gestalt and PrC's on both sides at once.

I just looked that up.
I got the go ahead on killing the monster class just now. he didn't want to force me to play something that just wasn't jiving with me. So do you have any build suggestions? I had meant druid 5/ planar 10/ mistype on my part. I would LOVE your opinion on some great ways to max this guy out. I've been warned we're going to need some serious fire power. we're starting at lv 7

[eggynack]

Can't really get much more maxed than planar shepherd. It's kinda just the broken and jagged peak of druid optimization. Thus, pretty much anything I suggest would be necessarily doing the opposite of maxing your character out, at least on the druid side. I suppose something like swordsage would make for a decent dip on the not-druid side. Maneuver bears are neat.

[shadowseve]

Can't really get much more maxed than planar shepherd. It's kinda just the broken and jagged peak of druid optimization. Thus, pretty much anything I suggest would be necessarily doing the opposite of maxing your character out, at least on the druid side. I suppose something like swordsage would make for a decent dip on the not-druid side. Maneuver bears are neat.

well the druid side I plan on sticking with druid/ planar shepherd. I'm just debating on the other side of the gestalt. Since both classes sides aren't allowed to PrC on both sides at the same time. I'm stuck then on what to take on the flip side if you will.


Edit:

I don't think I'll end up sticking with bear as my main form with planar shepherd as the other forms I can get will pretty much make the bear obsolete.

[Agamemmnoth]

To this, and the above similar build, you're not allowed to have PrC's on both sides of a gestalt at once, and I don't know of any particular reason to take six levels of druid before planar shepherd, instead of five.


then I need to let me dm know this. I'm about to hit lv 6 so I popped in to see a little about this. I'm now curious as to what else could be taken.

I suppose you could ignore planar shephard and go

druid 20//barbarian 5/warshaper 5/ master of manyforms 10. However; that would nerf the character due to no planar shepherd.

Interesting....

I'm curious to see what others can come up with. The alternative of druid 20// barbarian 5/ warshaper5/ master of many forms looks like fun. But the power from planar....... Le sigh.

[eggynack]

I don't think I'll end up sticking with bear as my main form with planar shepherd as the other forms I can get will pretty much make the bear obsolete.
Bear is just a stand in for all combat forms. The rhetorical bear riding a bear while shooting bears, if you will. As for other side stuff, there's really not all that much out there. The best you can do is probably just running factotum, so that you get extra actions to do stuff in. Apart from that, you're getting pretty much everything out there already. You don't get the standard intelligence synergy that you get from wizard//factotum, but it works well enough. I'm just really not sure what something like barbarian does for a planar shepherd.

Edit: As for leaving planar shepherd being a nerf, well, yeah. Honestly, if you push things hard enough, a gestalt druid build running not planar shepherd is probably a nerf compared to a normal druid running planar shepherd.

[shadowseve]

Bear is just a stand in for all combat forms. The rhetorical bear riding a bear while shooting bears, if you will. As for other side stuff, there's really not all that much out there. The best you can do is probably just running factotum, so that you get extra actions to do stuff in. Apart from that, you're getting pretty much everything out there already. You don't get the standard intelligence synergy that you get from wizard//factotum, but it works well enough. I'm just really not sure what something like barbarian does for a planar shepherd.

Some one had pm'd me about it. I am was considering all options though and hadn't really looked into a whole lot since I was pm'd only about 2 hours ago and just through it out there.

Time for work. Ugh... thanks again eggynack. I've never heard of the factotum so I can look into. I have similar stats as before so a 15 int if that helps. I am def not a full build optimizer yet.

[eggynack]

Some one had pm'd me about it. I am was considering all options though and hadn't really looked into a whole lot since I was pm'd only about 2 hours ago and just through it out there.
It's a pretty reasonable choice, I think. You're mostly in it for cunning surge, with fancy skill stuff as a bonus. You really need something passive here, because druids already get too much stuff to fit into each round, and planar shepherds get even more.

[shadowseve]

It's a pretty reasonable choice, I think. You're mostly in it for cunning surge, with fancy skill stuff as a bonus. You really need something passive here, because druids already get too much stuff to fit into each round, and planar shepherds get even more.

No they pmd me about barbarian. You're the first who mentioned factotum. I've never even heard of the class.

[eggynack]

No they pmd me about barbarian. You're the first who mentioned factotum. I've never even heard of the class.
Ah. Yeah, it seems alright, but not great. It really all depends on what you want to do with your actions, whether you seek to explode people in the face with spells, or to consume said face. The classic bear or bat decision, as it were. That should inform your decision making to at least some extent. It is notable though, that if you seek to truly raze the earth, then the better choice is likely the one that maximizes your casting ability.

[shadowseve]

Ah. Yeah, it seems alright, but not great. It really all depends on what you want to do with your actions, whether you seek to explode people in the face with spells, or to consume said face. The classic bear or bat decision, as it were. That should inform your decision making to at least some extent. It is notable though, that if you seek to truly raze the earth, then the better choice is likely the one that maximizes your casting ability.


I agree on this. My last druid I focused more on consuming face. Since the campaign was more low optimizing it really didn't matter as I was still ruling that dep against a crusader anyways and I let the wizard and cleric pick up the spells. I still did some BFC but I mostly ate things.

Now let me ask you this if you'll "bear" with me a moment :smallbiggrin: since the theme behind this campaign was taking a monster race, I don't know how much of the previous part you read, would this work?

druid 5/planar shepherd 10/druid 5//nymph 7/ factotum 13? I'm pretty sure once I look into factotum I'll prob take it.

He's not forcing us to add the RHD to LA for the ECL so it's a strait level 7 add on. I didn't know if the fact a nymph casts as a lv 7 druid would interfere with the "true" druid on the other side of the gestalt build or if it was possible or not. If that would work I'll stick to the Nymph since it was supposed to be part of the "flavor" of the campaign. If not then I'll ditch the nymph and be the odd ball out.

[eggynack]

The issue is that nymph just seems somewhat awkward if the other side is running druid, because I don't think the casting stacks in a gestalt. You could always go with some different source of LA, though apart from saint, which is a classic maneuver, I'm not sure what you'd use offhand.

[shadowseve]

The issue is that nymph just seems somewhat awkward if the other side is running druid, because I don't think the casting stacks in a gestalt. You could always go with some different source of LA, though apart from saint, which is a classic maneuver, I'm not sure what you'd use offhand.

that was my problem with it when I drew it from the hat. I knew I wanted to continue on a druid theme since the last druid was killed in a really really dumb way on the DM's part. (Two level 20's vs a lv 7 party come on!!) I didn't know if the casting stacked so I figured it might be waste. I might see about a saint I've always wanted to use that template since it rocks just never had a dm who allowed a LA buy off.

So then

Druid 5/ planar 10/druid 5//saint 2/factotum 18?

That works for me if that's what you're suggesting. Will be interesting since we'll have a necro cleric/half shadow dragon.

[eggynack]

That sounds about right, though it might be worth hopping out of factotum after 8. I'm not really sure what you'd want to leave it for, however.

[Jeff the Green]

Like eggynack said, putting druid on the other side is redundant. Instead, consider one of the other classes that gives wildshape: Wildshape Ranger or Shapeshifter (from Oriental Adventures). The latter is a little tricky. You'll want to put it on the non-nymph side, and then stick casting levels on the nymph side where you don't get casting from Shapeshifter and non-casting (e.g. Binder, Incarnate, Factotum) on the ones where you do.

A couple build stubs:

Wildshape Ranger 5/Planar Shepherd 2/Factotum (or binder, or incarnate) 13//Nymph 7/Planar Shepherd +8 (10)/Holt Warden 5.
Factotum (or binder, or incarnate) 7/Shapeshifter 10//Nymph 7/Factotum (or binder, or incarnate)* 5/Druid* 5/Holt Warden 3

*Alternating these

If you're up for homebrew, check out my Yee Naaldlooshii (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234642-3-5-PrC-With-This-I-Creep-on-All-Fours-The-Skinwalker-(PEACH)&p=12815645#post12815645). You'll need to refluff (eliminate the non-good and killing a family member and maybe change it to absorbing the creature's essence rather than skinning them, and giants instead of aberrations), but it'll work fine. It'll need the same treatment as Shapeshifter since it only has half casting.

Also, ask your DM about PrCs. While the rules state you can't have more than one at a time, it's a silly rule that many ignore and it will simplify things quite a bit.

[shadowseve]

Like eggynack said, putting druid on the other side is redundant. Instead, consider one of the other classes that gives wildshape: Wildshape Ranger or Shapeshifter (from Oriental Adventures). The latter is a little tricky. You'll want to put it on the non-nymph side, and then stick casting levels on the nymph side where you don't get casting from Shapeshifter and non-casting (e.g. Binder, Incarnate, Factotum) on the ones where you do.

A couple build stubs:

Wildshape Ranger 5/Planar Shepherd 2/Factotum (or binder, or incarnate) 13//Nymph 7/Planar Shepherd +8 (10)/Holt Warden 5.
Factotum (or binder, or incarnate) 7/Shapeshifter 10//Nymph 7/Factotum (or binder, or incarnate)* 5/Druid* 5/Holt Warden 3

*Alternating these

If you're up for homebrew, check out my Yee Naaldlooshii (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234642-3-5-PrC-With-This-I-Creep-on-All-Fours-The-Skinwalker-(PEACH)&p=12815645#post12815645). You'll need to refluff (eliminate the non-good and killing a family member and maybe change it to absorbing the creature's essence rather than skinning them, and giants instead of aberrations), but it'll work fine. It'll need the same treatment as Shapeshifter since it only has half casting.

Also, ask your DM about PrCs. While the rules state you can't have more than one at a time, it's a silly rule that many ignore and it will simplify things quite a bit.



So if I'm correct in this. Wildshape Ranger 5/Planar Shepherd 2/Factotum13//Nymph 7/Planar Shepherd +8 (10)/Holt Warden 5. would give me Lv 20 druid casting plus the bonuses from Factotum and all the goodies from planar plus the animal companion( though weaker than a strait druids obviously.) The main things I seem to lose is the SNA the from the druid line. How badly would the lose of SNA be? On my normal druid it was a significant part of my damage and BFC. Would the divine levels be wisdom or charisma based? I'm assuming the Nymphs spells, like her abilities are charisma based.

Edit:
This looks like the final winner if this all checks out how I think it does.

[Jeff the Green]

So if I'm correct in this. Wildshape Ranger 5/Planar Shepherd 2/Factotum13//Nymph 7/Planar Shepherd +8 (10)/Holt Warden 5. would give me Lv 20 druid casting plus the bonuses from Factotum and all the goodies from planar plus the animal companion( though weaker than a strait druids obviously.) The main things I seem to lose is the SNA the from the druid line. How badly would the lose of SNA be? On my normal druid it was a significant part of my damage and BFC. Would the divine levels be wisdom or charisma based? I'm assuming the Nymphs spells, like her abilities are charisma based.

Edit:
This looks like the final winner if this all checks out how I think it does.

You can take the Spontaneous Summoning Feat, though ask your DM to switch it to Charisma since, yes, that's your casting stat.

And your animal companion is almost negligible, since it's as a ranger. Instead get the Urban Companion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) ACF; with the skill points you'll be getting it's a very good trade.

[Agamemmnoth]

Throw in vow of nudity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?45529-Nude-Bard-Sublime-Chord-Heartwarder-Vow-of-Poverty-Build). This makes for some fun times. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

If you don't do this build you sir are not a man. :smallbiggrin:

[shadowseve]

You can take the Spontaneous Summoning Feat, though ask your DM to switch it to Charisma since, yes, that's your casting stat.

And your animal companion is almost negligible, since it's as a ranger. Instead get the Urban Companion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) ACF; with the skill points you'll be getting it's a very good trade.

I think you've pretty much sold me on this build. Almost perfect wildshape progression ( I assume it would stack with the rangers wildshape and thus give me 15 lvs of progression though I'm not sure on this.), lv 20 druidic casting, spontaneous summoning, the brute power of planar shepherd.

I kind of like the afc as well. a viper would fit nicely with the theme and it would stack with the planar shepherd's progression I assume.

I think you fit the build. I figured someone would find a good solution.

[shadowseve]

Throw in vow of nudity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?45529-Nude-Bard-Sublime-Chord-Heartwarder-Vow-of-Poverty-Build). This makes for some fun times. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

If you don't do this build you sir are not a man. :smallbiggrin:

My wife would kill me. :smallbiggrin:

[thedmring]

The issue is that nymph just seems somewhat awkward if the other side is running druid, because I don't think the casting stacks in a gestalt. You could always go with some different source of LA, though apart from saint, which is a classic maneuver, I'm not sure what you'd use offhand.

why are guys even bothering here. He's on this forum asking questions every night. If he can't read.. Why help?

[One Step Two]

I've always like the idea of using Gestalt as a way to play Monsters, here's something you might want
The X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) thread. This has ways to make the most of your racial +8 to charisma.

Also, from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, Legend of the Twins source book, while 3rd party material, it has a feat called Dynamic Priest, which lets you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for divine spellcasting. It's worth seeing if you can grab it, because you can focus all your stat gains onto Charisma without reservation.

And finally, the Heartwarder (http://dndtools.eu/classes/heartwarder/) Prc, it's more the compassionate than deadly poisons, it has healing and a few other things, but most notably, is the charisma increases every few levels. It may not suit your concept, but I thought it deserved a mention.

[adriana]

I've always like the idea of using Gestalt as a way to play Monsters, here's something you might want
The X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) thread. This has ways to make the most of your racial +8 to charisma.

Also, from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, Legend of the Twins source book, while 3rd party material, it has a feat called Dynamic Priest, which lets you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for divine spellcasting. It's worth seeing if you can grab it, because you can focus all your stat gains onto Charisma without reservation.

And finally, the Heartwarder (http://dndtools.eu/classes/heartwarder/) Prc, it's more the compassionate than deadly poisons, it has healing and a few other things, but most notably, is the charisma increases every few levels. It may not suit your concept, but I thought it deserved a mention.

I'm in that campaign with him. He decided on ditching the nymph and going

druid 5/planar shepherd 10/ druid 5// saint 2/ factotum 18. I think he's still interested in going out of factotum after 8 but he's not sure what to add. It'll be an interesting campaign.

[adriana]

Can't really get much more maxed than planar shepherd. It's kinda just the broken and jagged peak of druid optimization. Thus, pretty much anything I suggest would be necessarily doing the opposite of maxing your character out, at least on the druid side. I suppose something like swordsage would make for a decent dip on the not-druid side. Maneuver bears are neat.

Thank you for helping him with his druid. Last campaign he kicked a lot of ass. He is an awesome person to campaign with.