Can't find a good 1st level feat for a scout (swift hunter)?

[justiceforall]

Hi playground,

I'm currently playing a scout going for swift hunter in one of my groups games. My theme is to build a hoplite of sorts (loose inspiration only), mechanically I'm aiming for my character to be a mostly melee TWF swift hunter who uses a shield and a shortspear. My character is a human with 14/14/14/10/13/8 for stats.

I'm having a problem though, I can't find a second 1st level feat to take, and this is largely due to prerequisites. My first feat is fairly straightforward for a scout - Travel Devotion. Easy, it has no prereqs. But after that...?

As a 1st level scout, I can't take Improved Shield Bash (since it needs shield proficiency which I will only acquire when I get my first level of ranger).
I can't take Oversized TWF because I don't have TWF yet (ranger levels)
Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish both require at least 3rd level scout.
Most of the fun shield feats have BAB requirements
Even Quickdraw (for throwing spears/other shennanigans) needs BAB +1

Short of switching my 1st level for Ranger instead, I can't really find a second feat to take! And I'd really prefer to avoid that, since it represents a straight loss of 8 skill points (and I love me some skill points).

Ideas? For the record, I'm not interested in massive optimisation as my party is very low op (one of the characters is going for duelist prestige), I just want something that fits the idea of the hoplite theme and doesn't suck *too* hard.


EDIT: Sorry, should also add I don't intend to do the bounding assault line of feats (which rules out Dodge)

[vhfforever]

Whenever I find myself stuck on what Feat to take, I almost always end up defaulting to Improved Initiative.

It's just...useful.

[Jeff the Green]

I assume you won't be getting Turn Undead, so another instance of Travel Devotion would be nice. That way you can use it in two combats per day.

Able Learner if there are skills from Scout you'd like to keep up as a Ranger.

[Feint's End]

Whenever I find myself stuck on what Feat to take, I almost always end up defaulting to Improved Initiative.

It's just...useful.

This is a quite useful suggestion. Improved initiative is always useful.


A few things generally though: why not dip into cleric with travel devotion or take a level of spirit lion totem barbarian? It looks like you are going for a melee build and having a reliable source of getting move+attack is mandatory for a swift hunter build (travel devotion doesn't cut it without extra turning attempts).
You could for example go cloistered cleric and get travel devotion and animal devotion (swift action flight? Yes please). Then get a few nightsticks and go to town. Alternatively how about knowledge devotion. One level of cleric is almost always worth it on martial builds.

As for other good feats. Shadowblade is obviously nice if you are dex focused. Maybe you can even port in deadly strikes from pf which just has weapon finesse as a prerequisite and is useable on all weapons which allow for weaponfinesse. I guess you are str-focused though?

Taking everything into account I recommend improved initiative as has been mentioned before. I really advice against getting travel devotion without a level of cleric. Exception is if you get animal devotion and knowledge devotion from the clericlevel. If this is the case then pick undeath domain as your 3rd domain for extra turning (might be not flavourful though if you are the nature warrior type).

Also just as a nitpick ... improved skirmish needs 5 levels of scout (or 5 levels of swift hunter obviously).

[Darrin]

Take Combat Reflexes. This sets you up to take Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) later. Otherwise, take Travel Devotion again (you can take multiples).

Can you start with Ranger levels first? That opens up several feats you need.

More advice: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook). There are several Swift Hunter builds in there, but I don't think I tackled a shield/spear build.

[Inevitability]

I am a fan of the magical training + precocious apprentice combo. But that'd require two feats...

Are flaws allowed?

[Yogibear41]

Switching your first level to ranger instead of scout will open up alot more options for feats.

You could always just take a "useful" feat that isn't really optimized like run or even great fortitude or something like that, I know alot of people say the +2 save feats aren't that great, but for my money I like being able to pass saving throws with a 2 on the dice or better(not to mention 3rd level ranger gets endurance which propels you to steadfast determination which makes great fortitude that much better IMO)

[Yorrin]

+1 to taking ranger first. You lose nothing by doing so, and have a lot to gain.

[Troacctid]

+1 to taking ranger first. You lose nothing by doing so, and have a lot to gain.

Well, you lose 8 skill points.

[justiceforall]

Whenever I find myself stuck on what Feat to take, I almost always end up defaulting to Improved Initiative.

Noted. This will be my failsafe I think if I can't find anything that fits the hoplite image better.


Able Learner if there are skills from Scout you'd like to keep up as a Ranger.

I'm not really going to go with disable device, so I probably wouldn't get a tonne of use out of this unless I'm missing something else? I can get tumble back from Cityscape, and I only really need 5 ranks of balance to get what I need from that skill. Most of the other skills seem to overlap fairly well?


A few things generally though: why not dip into cleric with travel devotion or take a level of spirit lion totem barbarian?

Thanks, but outside the scope of this thread.


Shadowblade is obviously nice if you are dex focused.

How I can take it at 1st level as a scout? Also - I put up my stats so you can see I'm not dex focused. I'm pretty sure I have to end up strength focused for melee with a heavy shield.


More advice: TWF OffHandbook. There are several Swift Hunter builds in there, but I don't think I tackled a shield/spear build.

Yes I know, I've already read and posted in that thread. I even posted about this particular character without actually noting as such (shield slam discussion).


Switching your first level to ranger instead of scout will open up alot more options for feats.

Indeed, which I believe I noted, but I would vastly prefer not to give up 8 skill points if I can avoid it! I know I would at least be able to take Quick Draw, any others that might tip the balance?

[Feint's End]

Thanks, but outside the scope of this thread

Fair point. I just wanted to make you aware of the increased utility from a cleric level. It seems like you plan on being very flexible (skill points , quick draw, etc) and spending lots of feats on travel devotion or just using it once a day really hurts here.


Hmm as for other feats. How about one which increases your options overall? You could for example be an azurine instead of a regular human and pick a soul meld to further increase your flexibility or combat prowess. I'm AFB right now but if you want I could give if a short search.

How about hidden talent? There are some really great first level powers which are even great if just useable twice per day. Dimension hop comes to mind (swift action teleport for 10 feet... should trigger your skirmish too)

Otherwise there are some very fun and interesting feats you can advantage off but again I would have to look into some books.

Also something about quick draw. If you have decent access to magic items from time to time you could just buy a few crystals of least return. They are 300 gold each and give the weapon they are attached to free action drawability. Just wait a few levels and buy about 10 of them and you are settled. I know you probably want the real feat but just something to think about. This way you could spare the feats you get for more interesting stuff.


Also ask your dm if you could replace the second ranger level two weapon feat with the agile shield fighter feat (link here: http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/agile-shield-fighter--51/ ) and let improved twf and greater twf stack with it. It's very reasonable (like very, very reasonable) and would spare you 2 feats. Especially you wouldn't need oversized twf.

[justiceforall]

Dimension hop comes to mind (swift action teleport for 10 feet... should trigger your skirmish too)

I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure the FAQ on skirmish specifically excludes that. Hence the popularity of Travel Devotion for scouts?


If you have decent access to magic items from time to time you could just buy a few crystals of least return. They are 300 gold each and give the weapon they are attached to free action drawability. Just wait a few levels and buy about 10 of them and you are settled. I know you probably want the real feat but just something to think about. This way you could spare the feats you get for more interesting stuff.

Our wealth is super random, and our GM also thinks item-destroying monsters are fun. Hence I very much want to rely on my character and not my equipment :(


Also ask your dm if you could replace the second ranger level two weapon feat with the agile shield fighter feat (link here: http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/agile-shield-fighter--51/ ) and let improved twf and greater twf stack with it. It's very reasonable (like very, very reasonable) and would spare you 2 feats. Especially you wouldn't need oversized twf.

It is entirely reasonable, but as a personal preference I generally try to play by fairly strict RAW.

[sideswipe]

you will want a reasonably high tumble to walk past without Attacks of opportunity so skill focus tumble? add your dex and 4 ranks and you only need a 6 to not get AOO as you pass enemies to skirmish them. and it becomes slightly possible to then get a 16 to move through their square. by the time you become a swift ambusher you would be almost autopassing the DC15 and have a decent chance at the DC25.

then at higher levels you can invest more skill points elsewhere.
(or save up to do a DC40 tumble to take a 10' step as part of a full attack :smallwink: )

[justiceforall]

Are flaws allowed?

Missed this one in the thread - no they are not.


Anyway, I think I've narrowed it down to having to take Ranger at 1st despite my love of skill points. My theory goes:

1st - Ranger 1 - Travel Dev, Imp Shield Bash
2nd - Ranger 2 - TWF
3rd - Scout 1 - Oversize TWF
4th - Scout 2
5th - Scout 3
6th - Class X - Swift Hunter

It's the only way I could come up with to get the maximum amount of concept into as few levels as possible, and as far as I can tell there's no way I can do it with Scout 1 instead. Grrr! I don't anticipate the GM having problems with me retraining (he never has before) so when I hit third level I will probably switch to this.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, you could play a wild elf instead. Judging by your stat array, I'd guess you were using point buy, so if so, you could have the same stats. You wouldn't have a bonus feat to worry about, and you'd get all the elf stuff in return.

edit: nevermind; I just realized you'd still lose the 8 skill points.

Otherwise, I second the improved initiative suggestion.