Building a dread necromancer

[Kafana]

I have the following books at my disposal - Complete Arcane, Warrior, Adventurer, Scoundrel, the Races of books, Heroes of Horror (obviously), PHB 1 & 2.

I could persuade my DM to get a few or two from the other completes, but anything more exotic than that probably won't be allowed.

Now, I plan to focus on the minion aspect, but I'd also like to be a good debuffer. Flaws are allowed, by the way.

So, which feats would you recommend? Which spells do you recommend for the advanced learning? The campaign will most likely take place between the levels of 6 and 10.

Side note: Since my CHA will by high, do you think the feat that allows me to have my will saves based on CHA (from CA) would be a good choice? This will allow me to treat wisdom as the ultimate dump stat.

[RedMage125]

I advise not dumping Wisdom, as you'll want it to gain spell list expanders via Arcane Disciple. Since Dread Necromancers spontaneously cast from their whole spell list, this feat adds one spell per level to your class list, but a decent wisdom is necessary.

Also, your 1st level feat is Tomb Tainted Soul. This is not up for debate, unless you have a means of becoming a Necropolitan or something early on. The ability to heal yourself (and out of combat healing through Charnel Touch) is priceless.

As far as Advanced Learning, I'd look at Kelgore's Grave Mist (Spell Compendium) for your first one at level 4. It's outstanding.

What level are you starting out at, btw?

[Kafana]

I advise not dumping Wisdom, as you'll want it to gain spell list expanders via Arcane Disciple. Since Dread Necromancers spontaneously cast from their whole spell list, this feat adds one spell per level to your class list, but a decent wisdom is necessary.

Also, your 1st level feat is Tomb Tainted Soul. This is not up for debate, unless you have a means of becoming a Necropolitan or something early on. The ability to heal yourself (and out of combat healing through Charnel Touch) is priceless.

As far as Advanced Learning, I'd look at Kelgore's Grave Mist (Spell Compendium) for your first one at level 4. It's outstanding.

What level are you starting out at, btw?

Level 6, as a human (additional feat) and I have access to flaws. I literally wrote all of that in the OP xD

[Jeff the Green]

I know it's not on the list, but talk to your DM about Libris Mortis. Aside from the all the things based on Corpsecrafter, it includes the Fell X feats, which are awesome when combined with Kelgore's grave mist, and Tomb-Tainted Soul, which should be your first feat.

Have you chosen a race? If not, Illumian with Naen and Hoon sigils is very good. If you go that route, pick up a good metamagic feat. Split Ray is decent for two ray of enfeeblement/ray of exhaustion/enervations, Chain Spell for similar reasons, and of course the Fell Xs, if they're allowed.

Spell Focus is a good one, since you've basically only got one school. Likewise Metamagic School Focus. Arcane Thesis (enervation) is good if you load up on metamagic like Split Ray, Chain, Empower, Invisble, Black Lore of Moil, etc.

Extra Spell, depending on your DM's interpretation of the feat, could net you a non-necromancy option or possibly let you start your minionmancy early by getting animate dead from the cleric list.

[HammeredWharf]

Dread Necros are good at raising undead and causing fear. Unfortunately, the two roles conflict a bit, because you really need levels of Dread Witch to be a good fear-focused character, but also have to get Animate Dead ASAP and Undead Mastery. So, while Dread Necro 8 / Dread Witch 4 is a great build, you're unlikely to get there.

Libris Mortis is full of great minion master feats (the Corpsecrafter line), but unfortunately it looks like you can't use it. To be honest, without access to LM I'd go for a Dread Witch build. Dread Necro 4 / Dread Witch 4 / Dread Necro X would work fine and be quite powerful in most circumstances.

[Cloud]

Okay, so either be a Necropolitan (the answer is yes if you're allowed spellstitched..but that's MM2 and pretty broken as heck aside). As good at being undead is, basically the DM being able to greater turn me into dust has never be comfortable with me (turning optimisiation is far, far greater than your ability to be resistant to turning as a PC), and aside I've always liked the whole aspect of slowly becoming undead that the dread necromancer provides. Aside you're level 6 now and 3rd level spells and another feat are tasty. :3

So assuming you stay human, you have, Flaw 1, Flaw 2, Human, Level 1, Level 3, and Level 6 for feats. As has been mentioned, one of these is Tomb-Tainted Soul if you remain living, no questions asked. Unfortunately this means you need Libris Mortis open to you. ...As a necromancer you really, really want to ask for Libris Mortis to be an open book for you. If you want minions, you'll also take Corpse Crafter (everything but the HP doesn't stack with Undead Mastery...but the HP is nice if you're really hot and heavy into minions). If you do take corpse crafter, if your group has your minions roll their own initiative, nimble bones is a must, though I find most groups just have your minions act on your turn. Destruction Retribution is worth using if you go for a swarm of weak minions, instead of a few strong ones. Given you're allowed flaws, I'd probably take Corpse Crafter just for moar HP for your undead, but the rest of the corpse crafter line probably isn't worth it, particularly if you focus on a few strong minions.

So...Tomb-Tainted Soul, and Corpse Crafter. ...You'll need Libris Mortis for both though. As for the rest of your feats, they're boring but I'm fond of using spell focus and greater spell focus necromancy. +2 to the DCs of everything you cast is nice. Sicken Grasp from Complete Mage is nice, extra stuff on every touch spell you use, and an extra caster level for your troubles. Aside from that if you want to go debuff every, metamagic feats are nice, empower spell or split ray are decent now (ray of enfeeblement and your 3rd level spell slots say hi).

[DruidAlanon]

You should become a Necropolitan. Dread Necro needs many feats and wasting 1 feat for Tomb Tainted Soul is not the best thing you can do (it also lets you put your lowest score on Con). Also, do your best to take Spellstitch template as well. DR SR TR, better saves, plus several spells known/per day. Pure testosterone boost. Not bad for a necropolitan. Quite expensive though.

Spellstich template is actually the reason you DO NOT want to dump Wisdom. Having 15 in Wis, you gain: 8 spells ( Conjuration, Evocation, or Necromancy) up to lvl4. This way, you can do many many interesting things, more no save debuffs, more undeads, etc.
Otherwise, if you can't convince your DM to let you be an undead, definitely take Tomb Tainted Soul.

If you go for the necropolitan template, make sure that you can find a caster that has corpsecrafter/undead mastery (+2hp/die) and that the area is desecrated+altered (+2 hp/hd). 0 constitution hurts and this is the only way you can have more HP.

If you can find a copy of Races of the Dragon, take Versatile Spellcaster feat. That way you can cast a spell 1lvl higher than you normally would.

If you can find Races of Fearun (and Complete Divine), take Southern magician at lvl1. Doing that, your spells count as divine, so you can enable divine metamagic.

Also, convince your DM to give you a Slaymate. My own dread necro, has a slaymate as "his always sad daughter". Work on that a bit through RP and I believe you'll eventually find a slaymate.

Since you have PHII, do take Arcane Thesis so you can reduce metamagic cost to 0. (that could replace a slaymate as well)

Also, you can combine fell drain feat (DO find Libris mortis: book of the undead, you're a necro after all) with a slaymate and practical metamagic for a +0 (instead of +2). With Advanced Learning (lvl 4) take from PHII the Kelgore's Grave Mist and apply fell drain for a no save, no sr, area dmg, for a +0. Pretty OP against any living creature. Fell Drain feat (Libris Mortis) is actually why I still play Dread Necro.

Since you have complete arcane, have a look at Black Lore of Moil feat. Combined with the Fell Drain combo, it's pretty solid.

Since you want to focus on minionmastery, do find Leopards. By far, the best 3HD creature you can find.

Also, if you can have access to Libris Mortis, you can create something like Dread Necro10/Pale Master 10 (with a bunch of feats from LM) that is nasty (even thou Pale Master is a lame PrC).

Otherwise, tainted scholar is by far the best PrC for Dread Necromancer.

[OldTrees1]

Minionmancer Dread Necromancer

Control:
3x Command Undead (2nd level Dread Necromancer spell)
= 3 x (Caster Level) Undead of Max HD
+ Metamagic Rod of Chaining, lesser [27,200gp]
= 3 x (Caster Level) x (Caster Level + 1) Undead of Max HD

Aquisition:
Leadership feat
Cleric Cohort (Max HD per animated undead in a desecrated area = 4 x Caster level)

Build (to fit in Debuffing):
Dread Necromancer 4 / Dread Witch 5

At 7th level your Cleric Cohort will be animating up to 20HD undead in a desecrated area for +2hp/HD.
At 7th level you cannot afford the Rod (reasonable purchase at level 11 though) however you can control 18 Max HD(20HD) Undead.

Sources used:
PH
Heroes of Horror (Dread Necromancer & Dread Witch)
Complete Arcane (Lesser Chain Spell Metamagic Rod)

[Alex12]

I have the following books at my disposal - Complete Arcane, Warrior, Adventurer, Scoundrel, the Races of books, Heroes of Horror (obviously), PHB 1 & 2.

I could persuade my DM to get a few or two from the other completes, but anything more exotic than that probably won't be allowed.

Now, I plan to focus on the minion aspect, but I'd also like to be a good debuffer. Flaws are allowed, by the way.

So, which feats would you recommend? Which spells do you recommend for the advanced learning? The campaign will most likely take place between the levels of 6 and 10.

Side note: Since my CHA will by high, do you think the feat that allows me to have my will saves based on CHA (from CA) would be a good choice? This will allow me to treat wisdom as the ultimate dump stat.
Okay, first off, if you can't get access to Libris Mortis, don't even bother trying to go Dread Necromancer. There are 3 kinds of DN: the ones that take Tomb-Tainted Soul, the ones that go Necropolitan, and the ones that didn't do either of those and died. Seriously. TTS (or Necropolitan, which has the same effect, plus some other stuff) is like Power Attack for a Barbarian, or Natural Spell for a Druid- it's an integral ability that you NEED to have. If you don't have it, one of your class features is actively lethal to you. If you do get it, that feature instead heals you, as does your charnel touch ability.
Give up some other books if you have to (put it this way: DN is a totally viable T3 class with nothing but LM, HoH, and Core) but get access to Libris Mortis. Trading in every single Races of book for Libris Mortis would be a favorable trade for you. If it helps convince the DM, it's obviously really thematically appropriate.
Spell-wise, for your level 4 Advanced Learning, pick up Kelgore's Grave Mist and get it Arcane Thesis'd. Pick up Fell Drain and as many 0- or 1-level metamagics as you can fit. Whenever something dies to negative levels (such as from Fell Drain) it rises again as a wight. Which you can take over with rebuking.

Otherwise, if you can't convince your DM to let you be an undead, definitely take Tomb Tainted Soul.
This, wholeheartedly. Necropolitan is just plain better for DNs, but if the DM bans it, well, them's the breaks.


If you go for the necropolitan template, make sure that you can find a caster that has corpsecrafter/undead mastery (+2hp/die) and that the area is desecrated+altered (+2 hp/hd). 0 constitution hurts and this is the only way you can have more HP.
Won't actually work. Corpsecrafter and Undead Mastery only apply to undead created by spells, which the necropolitan ritual is not.


Otherwise, tainted scholar is by far the best PrC for Dread Necromancer.
To be fair, Necropolitan Tainted Scholar is one of the best PrCs for any full arcanist class.

[OldTrees1]

Okay, first off, if you can't get access to Libris Mortis, don't even bother trying to go Dread Necromancer. There are 3 kinds of DN: the ones that take Tomb-Tainted Soul, the ones that go Necropolitan, and the ones that didn't do either of those and died. Seriously. TTS (or Necropolitan, which has the same effect, plus some other stuff) is like Power Attack for a Barbarian, or Natural Spell for a Druid- it's an integral ability that you NEED to have.

False.
TTS/Necropolitian is nice but is nowhere near necessary. Honestly your comparison to Natural spell is apt for Druids are still OP without Natural Spell. Dread Necromancers are still very nice without the ability to use Charnel Touch on themselves.

[Alex12]

False.
TTS/Necropolitian is nice but is nowhere near necessary. Honestly your comparison to Natural spell is apt for Druids are still OP without Natural Spell. Dread Necromancers are still very nice without the ability to use Charnel Touch on themselves.

I'm not just talking about Charnel Touch (free out-of-combat self-healing is really nice, but it's not, strictly speaking, critical).
I'm talking about Negative Energy Burst, and how the DN isn't immune to it.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not just talking about Charnel Touch (free out-of-combat self-healing is really nice, but it's not, strictly speaking, critical).
I'm talking about Negative Energy Burst, and how the DN isn't immune to it.

And why would you waste an action on NEB? Cast a spell instead. Even Demoralizing is a better use of an action.
Also NEB is limited to 2/day(1/day if focused on Dread Witch) over the levels the OP is expecting. A 1/day ability is not worth scrapping a character over.

[Sception]

Agree. Negative energy burst is flavor at best, and by the time you can cast a spell every combat round is already obsolete. Unlimited (out of combat) self healing via TTS or being undead is great, but hardly necessary, as most parties have unlimited self healing out of combat by level 4 or 5 via wands, anyway. Being undead, of course, has a number of other choice benefits (not the least of which being the ability to dump your cha), I'd recommend going necropolitan if it were an option even in games where the DN's negative energy class features don't affect himself (a house rule I heartily recommend), but it's far from obligatory, and you're still solidly tier 3 without it.

That said, Libris Mortis is fantastic for the corpsecrafter feats (which are nice for a dedicated minionmancer, but I don't recommend that unless you're playing mass combat) and the Fell X feats (which I do recommend). I think the necrotic cyst feats are also in libris mortis? Which are fun, if not super powerful, but can offer a fair bit of utility, particularly in mass combat games where you want to keep track of an army and maybe maintain leverage on contacts in other political zones.

Another book you should ask your DM about is the Spell Compendium, not only for Advanced Learning options, but also because it contains updated spell descriptions for many of the spells on the Dread Necro's spell list. It's essentially published errata for your class, you really should be allowed at least the updates to your existing spells, even if you can't pick new spells from it.

For feats, look for ways to get past spell resistance, buff your save DCs, expand your spell access, and enhance your spellcasting via metamagic (including metamagic feats and feats that reduce the cost of metamagic). If you have LM, then corpsecrafter and destructive retribution are nice, but far from obligatory, and in general I think you're limited slots are better used elsewhere, since corpsecrafter is rather redundant, and DR, while amazing in theory, can get obnoxious when trying to work around living party members. If playing in a mass combat game, the corpsecrafter stuff gets much better.

Unless you're playing in a mass combat / military campaign game, don't overspam minions. It's super easy to do with a dread necro, once you finally have access to animate dead, but resist the temptation. You don't want to make combats long and boring for everyone else while you direct your army, and you don't want to make downtime awkward either. Try making one minion or pet per character in your party, then order the minions to follow the orders of their designated party member (it's kind of sketchy whether this qualifies as 'simple orders', but the gameplay convenience is such that your DM will likely allow it, and if they don't - and you can get access to the spell compendium - there's always awaken undead via advanced learning later on). Your party is less likely to complain about your necromantic hobbies when they can see directly how they benefit - the rogue with their own flanking partner, archer with a flying mount, etc.

For advanced learning, I like Kelgore's grave mist, shivering touch(, awaken undead, revive undead, astral projection, but you can probably do better, and might not have access to those particular choices. Haunt-shift is also quite potent, and has the advantage of coming from a book you already use, but the rules for it are somewhat hasslesome and prone to abuse, so in a normal game it might be better to avoid it.

For feats I like spell focus, gtr spell focus, spell penetration, gtr spell penetration, fell drain, reach spell, split ray or empower or maximize; not necessarily in that order. If you have access, arcane disciple (time, or deathbound, or trickery), or that feat that lets you sac two spells of level X to cast a spell you know of level X+1 (forget the name), or anything that reduces metamagic cost are all good ways to go; generally replacing the spell focus feats (you have enough saveless spells that you can live without them).

Race-wise, if you can get something with +2 cha, that's ideal. The two I know of are hellbound from fiendish codex: 2 (my personal favorite) and spellscale from races of the dragon. Otherwise I like the halfling subrace that gets a bonus feat, the races of destiny race with the glowy runes which gives you access to a limited form of divine metamagic, or just plain old human.



==================

If you do happen to be playing in a game of politics and armies on a mass stage, then your key feats are leadership, undead leadership, corpsecrafter, destruction retribution, maybe nimble bones, and probably mother cyst, and your key adv learning are undead general, haunt-shift, and awaken undead (Heroes of Horror for haunt shift, spell compendium for the other two), and your key skills are bluff and diplomacy, and you'll likely want to consider a two level dip of Pale Master(libris mortis, though taking it all the way to it's bonus undead cohort wouldn't be the worst move you could make, basically trading part of your personal animate dead pool, since the DN bonus to the pool is class level and not caster level based, for whatever extra indirect control you eventually get back from your extra cohort). For cohorts, get an early entry master of shrouds (libris mortis again - clc2, monk1, Master of Shrouds X; ideally necropolitan), and a one or two (depending on how far you drag out pale master) minimum level adjustment (ideally necropolitan from libris mortis) necrospec wizards (with differing forbidden spells if you have two).


Your personal animate dead pool will be filled with awakened soldiers and utility undead. On top of that, you can dedicate an arbitrary number of level 2+ spell slots to the Command Undead spell, and each slot dedicated allows you to control an additional number of mindless skeletons or zombies equal to your caster level, regardless of their hit dice. Your rebuke/command pool will be spent on spawning undead - wights, wraiths, shadows, which can each create and control an unlimited number of spawn. Hide the originals or you risk losing the lot when one dies. Use Undead general to allow commanders chosen from your wights to control your other undead. From undead leadership you should have an entire retiment of unintelligent undead. So you have a regiment each of unintelligent undead, awakened undead, wights, shadows or wraiths, and collossal undead siege engines, each led by sub commanders. Your cohorts have similar control pools, minus the leadership feats, with the cleric lacking the siege engines and the wizard(s) lacking the chain controled spawners. The cleric in particular is a specialist in incorporeal undead, and can supply you with the original shadows and wraiths to start off your control pool.

Yourself and your commanders should all have gear with haunt-shifted utility undead living inside of it, and you should also haunt-shift undead defenders into anything of value.

You also have followers, which should be split between roguish spies/agents and casters - primarily arcane casters, with a few divine. The arcane followers each get their own pool of massive seige engines via Command Undead, while the higher level arcane and divine casters have their own animate dead pools which you can awaken for them. So army-wise, you're huge. Likely in the hundreds of individuals and thousands of hit dice by the time you hit level 12 to 14 or so.

Politics-wise, you're a cha specialist, with high int and high wis advisors. The cyst spells with which you keep track of your subcommanders also allow you to coerce agents within potential rival factions (the spell line that the feat opens puts an undead cancerous cyst in the target, later spells let you scry on the target, or kill them outright, from great distances). On top of that, you have incorporeal undead spies, as well as living spies backed up by hauntshifted undead. Plus you can haunt-shift an undead spy into royal gifts to give to other faction leaders.


All in all, you should be conquering continents - whether through diplomacy or force - before you hit epic levels.


Which is cool and all theoretically, and awesome in a mass battles game, but should make reasonably clear why you don't want to focus on minion control in a normal game - it just gets out of scale too easily.

[RedMage125]

I'm not just talking about Charnel Touch (free out-of-combat self-healing is really nice, but it's not, strictly speaking, critical).
I'm talking about Negative Energy Burst, and how the DN isn't immune to it.

That's debatable. The text for the ability says NEB affects "living creatures within 5 feet of her", which means the squares immediately around her. And since the power is emanating FROM the DN, I don't see why you would insist that the DN be included in the effect. Basically, it's a spread outwards from her, not a bomb she drops on herself.

Now, if I were the DM and a DN with TTS wanted to include herself in the blast, I'd allow it.

As for OldTrees' question on WHY a DN would "waste" an action on NEB? Because a non-AoO-provoking, self-healing, aoe-damage effect, especially at low levels, is nice. NEB is acquired before level 2 spells are. Also, if your minions are taking damage, get in close to them and heal several at once, along with yourself.

[OldTrees1]

That's debatable. The text for the ability says NEB affects "living creatures within 5 feet of her", which means the squares immediately around her. And since the power is emanating FROM the DN, I don't see why you would insist that the DN be included in the effect. Basically, it's a spread outwards from her, not a bomb she drops on herself.

Now, if I were the DM and a DN with TTS wanted to include herself in the blast, I'd allow it.

As for OldTrees' question on WHY a DN would "waste" an action on NEB? Because a non-AoO-provoking, self-healing, aoe-damage effect, especially at low levels, is nice. NEB is acquired before level 2 spells are. Also, if your minions are taking damage, get in close to them and heal several at once, along with yourself.

I like how you would rule it.

I still consider the in-combat healing + tiny direct damage a waste of an action. Especially since your minions should have 20HD and not need in combat healing.

However, with your ruling, it is a waste of an action that I would occasionally do just for the flavor.

[Kafana]

For the record, I could persuade to allow Libris Mortis. Apart from that, I doubt it.

[HammeredWharf]

Definitely do that, then. Libris Mortis is a necromancer's dream book.

[Ellowryn]

Yeah, if you are going minionmancy then LM is solid, take the Pale Master asap before level 8 of DN. The first level is crap, but by the time you get thru the PrC you get a free undead cohort and some neat per/day touch attacks. If you really dont like it then just go 20 DN because there are no other really good PrC for minionmancy.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, if you are going minionmancy then LM is solid, take the Pale Master asap before level 8 of DN. The first level is crap, but by the time you get thru the PrC you get a free undead cohort and some neat per/day touch attacks. If you really dont like it then just go 20 DN because there are no other really good PrC for minionmancy.

Pale Master is really nice. Expecially since it can ignore material costs for animation.

DN minionmancy is based on caster level ^ 2. So any prestige class that boosts caster level enough is also a consideration. I like Red Wizard for doubling your caster level.

[Kafana]

Something I failed to ask earlier - what about items?

Apart from good armor, the DN doesn't really need anything item-wise, right?

[Jeff the Green]

Pale Master is really nice. Expecially since it can ignore material costs for animation.

DN minionmancy is based on caster level ^ 2. So any prestige class that boosts caster level enough is also a consideration. I like Red Wizard for doubling your caster level.

No, it's not. It's based on DN class level (or, at least, the improved control pool is). If you plan on doing minionmancy, you should absolutely not multiclass or PrC out—Pale Master is a Wizard PrC, not a DN PrC. If you want an undead cohort, just take undead leadership.


Something I failed to ask earlier - what about items?

Apart from good armor, the DN doesn't really need anything item-wise, right?

You don't really need armor; you shouldn't be in melee if you can help it. Just pick up MW chain shirt and maybe put a couple useful abilities on it, but there are better things to spend your money on. For instance, items that improve your effective rebuking level. If you have someone with at least a +5 Perform (string instruments) bonus (which may be you, depending on your Charisma), get a Lyre of the Restful Soul, which for 3000 GP will reduce undead's turn resistance by 4, even into negatives. In other words, you can command undead with two more HD than normal. Eventually you should also be able to afford a Phylactery of Undead Turning, raising your effective level four more, and maybe even a Rod of Defiance for another four cleric levels.

Oh, and don't forget +Charisma items.

Besides that, your basic +Saves, +Concentration, wands and scrolls (you are investing in UMD, right?), and maybe a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind (for Mind Over Body).

[RedMage125]

No, it's not. It's based on DN class level (or, at least, the improved control pool is). If you plan on doing minionmancy, you should absolutely not multiclass or PrC out—Pale Master is a Wizard PrC, not a DN PrC. If you want an undead cohort, just take undead leadership.


Yes, but a level 8 DN already has a higher control pool than a level 20 cleric. So PrC-ing out into Pale Master isn't that bad. Undead Leadership requires your DM to be on board, whereas Pale Master gets it as a class feature.

With Tomb-Tainted Soul and Tomb-Born Resistance combined with a Pale Master's level 10 capstone, a character gets almost all the benefits from being undead, except hit dice and CON score. All for only losing one caster level.

And as far as benefits, you get some more touch-based abilities, you get to ignore the material component of animate dead, and you get the cohort for free. Oh, and while you'll be ALMOST undead, you won't ACTUALLY be undead, so you can't be turned by a good cleric.

[OldTrees1]

No, it's not. It's based on DN class level (or, at least, the improved control pool is). If you plan on doing minionmancy, you should absolutely not multiclass or PrC out—Pale Master is a Wizard PrC, not a DN PrC. If you want an undead cohort, just take undead leadership.

Chain Command Undead (3+ * Caster level * (Caster Level + 1) * Max HD) >> Animate Dead (4 * Caster level + Cha * Class level).

So, yes DN minionmancy's upper bound is calculated by Caster level ^ 2, not cha * class level.

Since the upper bound is not dependent on class level (and your undead should be animated by your specialized cohort anyways) DN minionmancers have no problem PrC out or even losing caster levels in exchange for boosts to caster level.

[Sception]

If playing in a normal game, any amount of minion control will already be more than you can practically use. Regular animate dead pools are more than you can reasonably use in an adventuring party. A level 8 dread necro who prcs out and thus from that point on only gains additional pool from increased cha already has more than that. A dread necro who stays in class has a ton more. A dread necro who prcs out into pale master for an extra cohort can, though the cohort's own pool, have even more then that. And none of this is counting that there are spells to increase animate dead control pools (undead lieutenant being the best) available via advanced learning, or a rod that literally doubles that pool if you are holding it when you cast the spell.

And all of that doesn't matter, because when you can cast summon undead V, you can summon a shadow, and any humanoid that temporary shadow kills becomes a permanent shadow that you can control forever via rebuke/command undead, and any shadow that shadow kills is under your control because it's under the control of the first shadow.

So even before you started adding to it with class features, PRCs, cohorts, spells, or items, your minion control was already infinite.


Unless you are playing in a mass battle campaign, there is literally no reason for a minion specialist dread necromancer to concern themselves with quantity of minions. Only the quality of the handful you can actually reasonably work with at a time matters. And the best ways to improve that quality is through draconomicon skeleton/zombie templates + dead dragons, spell stitching, awaken undead, and polymorph any object + knowledge skills to permanently improve corpses pre-animation. Even the corpsecrafter feats are a waste, imo, with the entry feat largely redundant with a class feature you already get, and destruction retribution causing all sorts of trouble with your living party members.


A dread necromancer does not have to be a minion specialist. They can't even do it well until mid levels, and by then they're a quite competent Tier 3 caster in their own right.

[OldTrees1]

If playing in a normal game, any amount of minion control will already be more than you can practically use.

Unless you use them outside of combat and/or in areas you are not.
Minions make great infrastructure for the budding of an organization.

However I agree about limited minions in combat.
In combat I would advise only 2 20HD bodyguards and 3 20HD meatshields(meatshields do not take turns). You can easily reach this with 1 2nd level spell slot per day at 7th level (7th for the animating cohort).

[DruidAlanon]

Unless you use them outside of combat and/or in areas you are not.
Minions make great infrastructure for the budding of an organization.

However I agree about limited minions in combat.
In combat I would advise only 2 20HD bodyguards and 3 20HD meatshields(meatshields do not take turns). You can easily reach this with 1 2nd level spell slot per day at 7th level (7th for the animating cohort).

yes, just prefer quality vs quantity. I usually have 1 undead per player plus some undead buried allover the area, in case we need soldiers or whatever. In combat, I almost always focus on debuffing (negative levels rule)

[Sception]

Unless you use them outside of combat and/or in areas you are not.
Minions make great infrastructure for the budding of an organization.


They certainly do, and I even detailed how that might go in a previous post, but building the infrastructure of a major organization or faction falls well outside the range of regular party-based adventuring. If the campaign revolves around the party members building and managing one or more major large scale factions, then yes, max your control quantity (though, again, if you are actually going to play long enough to get the pale master's bonus cohort, you can arguably get more control pool from that then from the extra animate pool you'll have as a straight dread necro).

But if the game is going to revolve around you and a group of living allies delving dungeons and the like, then the party and GM won't appreciate the narrative burden that taking time out to manage a maxed out necromantic organization entails.

[OldTrees1]

They certainly do, and I even detailed how that might go in a previous post, but building the infrastructure of a major organization or faction falls well outside the range of regular party-based adventuring. If the campaign revolves around the party members building and managing one or more major large scale factions, then yes, max your control quantity (though, again, if you are actually going to play long enough to get the pale master's bonus cohort, you can arguably get more control pool from that then from the extra animate pool you'll have as a straight dread necro).

But if the game is going to revolve around you and a group of living allies delving dungeons and the like, then the party and GM won't appreciate the narrative burden that taking time out to manage a maxed out necromantic organization entails.
I did not mean a major organization that takes up the majority of playtime. That would be irregular.
I meant a small organization. Typically the place PCs return to while in their city of choice. A home base if you will. What precisely this means changes depending on the group and is typically slightly understaffed without a minionmancer. (Although quality over quantity usually applies unless mining/farming/building is involved)

Sidenote:
Size of Command Pools: Cohort > Command Undead(Spell) >> Dread Necromancer Animate Dead >> Animate Dead

[Sception]

Sidenote:
Size of Command Pools: Cohort > Command Undead(Spell) >> Dread Necromancer Animate Dead >> Animate Dead

This is accurate, I agree, although you left chain spawning via rebuke/command, which goes second after cohort but before command undead. As a functionally limitless pool, it only comes after cohort because, depending on the cohort choice, they may have their own rebuke/command pool. You also left out living followers (from leadership) and unliving followers (from undead leadership), which weigh in a little after command undead (since higher level arcane followers can cast command undead, just not as often or for as long as you or your cohorts) and somewhere around regular animate dead respectively.

Although quality of those minion pools varies a bit depending on what you want them for. Command Undead the spell is good for Mindless 20HD skeletons & zombies (or 20+HD skeleton and zombie dragons via the draconomicon templates), which are great for combat, but for utility use the other pools (which are either intelligent by default, or can be made so via awaken undead) often end up being more significant. Especially for background, downtime activities such as the management of a home base.

On that topic, in most games I've played, the DM preferred to manage the home base themselves, where one existed at all, but that's just table variation for you.

[Kafana]

Alright, so I rolled my stats and after adding the 1 from the 4th level stat gain I have the following (the 1 went to charisma):

18 14 14 12 12 5

I was thinking of going pure necro, and having wisdom be my dump stat. I don't care about perfect optimization, and since I don't want to have a bad will save I was thinking of using one of my 6 feats (3 for levels 1, 3, 6, 1 for human, 2 for flaws) for Force of Personality. 1 will definitely go for tomb-tainted soul, and I'll want to pick up Fell Drain as well as something to reduce the metamagic cost, though I'm not sure what. I doubt my DM would allow a slaymate, though perhaps he might if I take undead leadership, what do you guys think about that?

I was thinking to have my CON and DEX at 14, and obviously my CHA at 18. I don't plan to go undead any time soon, and since the campaign will finish way before I reach level 20 I don't plan on using CON as a dump stat. I might consider putting the 14 into INT instead of CON, simply so that I could have some utility skills. I was thinking concentration, use magic device, spellcraft, knowledge religion and intimidate (if I do put 14 into it, simply for the fun of it).

[OldTrees1]

Warning: Force of Personality does not affect all Will saves.

Using Undead Leadership to get a Slaymate Cohort seems like an interesting idea.

Personally I would suggest 14 INT over 14 DEX. You are considering +1 AC & Ref Save vs +1 Skill. Usually a skill is worth more than +1 to AC and 1 save.

As for the 5, I would be careful about ability damage.
0 Str/Dex/Int/Wis renders you helpless/paralyzed/unconscious/unconscious respectively.
Some drains are more common/larger than others. Str and Dex poison damage is more common than Wis poison damage.

[RedMage125]

Warning: Force of Personality does not affect all Will saves.


HA! I didn't remember that, just went and looked it up.

So FoP gives you your best stat on saves that you'll be ignoring once you go undead anyway.

Yet another reason to not dump Wisdom.

[Kafana]

As I said, I won't be going undead.