Why are monks considered tier 1?

[CyberThread]

I understand they get to cast flurry of blows unlimited times, making it an overpowered ability that even warlocks ad wizards are jealous of and an always on feather fall and speed boost.


How can a wizard overcome such obvious op abilities, that allow them to run , fall , and fight better then a low bab wizard?

[Dalasio]

I can't tell if troll or what...

[illyahr]

*brings out the Trollhammer*

[Seerow]

C'mon man it's not even Monkday.

[Gildedragon]

They must'ave fallen out of sync from flurrying so much. You see flurry is like timestop but it works in an amf

[dascarletm]

I can't tell if troll or what...

I can.

:D

Obviously the balancing factor is their feat tax for weapon proficiency. However I find that not strong enough.

I force all monks at my table to spend a number of rounds equal to their level to "power up" for these abilities. I cut the time in half for minor ones, and double it for major powers. Looking at you Quivering Palm.

These rounds need to involve the character in an open-legged stance screaming or grunting, or saying the name of the ability.

As a concession to my players, I do allow characters to glow when they do this. Though I think that might be too strong a power, and might have to remove it. Especially since all the VOP's are abusing it to light dark rooms.

[CyberThread]

I can.

:D

Obviously the balancing factor is their feat tax for weapon proficiency. However I find that not strong enough.

I force all monks at my table to spend a number of rounds equal to their level to "power up" for these abilities. I cut the time in half for minor ones, and double it for major powers. Looking at you Quivering Palm.

These rounds need to involve the character in an open-legged stance screaming or grunting, or saying the name of the ability.

As a concession to my players, I do allow characters to glow when they do this. Though I think that might be too strong a power, and might have to remove it. Especially since all the VOP's are abusing it to light dark rooms.


Do the monks get an intimidate bonus as they obviously taking a hit to stealth ? Their grunting while magical is not a mimicking song that bards sing for a stealth bonus.

[dascarletm]

Do the monks get an intimidate bonus as they obviously taking a hit to stealth ? Their grunting while magical is not a mimicking song that bards sing for a stealth bonus.

I played around with that idea but found it to be too game breaking. They could stack ranks into it, and pump cha making everything run in fear. Not good, now they have an at will cause fear.

You simply must think these things out first.

I make stealth impossible during rounds that they yell/grunt. they effectively always roll -infinity, causing everyone with LoS to spot them.

[Snowbluff]

It's because Bruce Lee. Since the designers didn't have enough Bruce Lee in their game, they added a class with Bruce Lee features so they can Bruce Lee their was out of problems.

Still, I am sick of this "1d6 scaling unarmed" crap. I have taken martial arts lessons for 2 weeks, and I can cut through hundred pound groups of swords with me karate chops. My million dollar training lets me beat dragons despite my human squishiness, minimal mechanical advantage, and lack of tool use.

[ArqArturo]

*brings out the Trollhammer*

I'm confused. Are trolls weak towards flaming weapons, or are they not?.

[Flickerdart]

I'm confused. Are trolls weak towards flaming weapons, or are they not?.
It's a little known fact that trolls are pyrophagic; they actually feed on flames.

[TrueJordan]

This is cyberthread, he makes like topics every so often presumably out of boredom. And about 40% of the things he says shouldn't be taken seriously. His trolling is like, a staple round these ends.

Like pretzels.

[HighWater]

It's a little known fact that trolls are pyrophagic; they actually feed on flames.

This explains perfectly why Trolls will try to avoid open flame when hunting adventurers for sport, as Trolls do not reproduce through the same mechanics as other humanoid lifeforms, but instead sustain their numbers through binary fission. They just aren't ready to have kids yet, they're still so young, so much to live for. Many of them haven't even been to Paris yet! :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

The trick for the Wizard is to max out their Sleight of Hand, even if it is cross-class, sneak up on the unsuspecting Monk and steal all of their wands. Invisibility might help for this, after all you can't let the Monk break the game by using their UMD skill.

[dascarletm]

It's because Bruce Lee. Since the designers didn't have enough Bruce Lee in their game, they added a class with Bruce Lee features so they can Bruce Lee their was out of problems.

Still, I am sick of this "1d6 scaling unarmed" crap. I have taken martial arts lessons for 2 weeks, and I can cut through hundred pound groups of swords with me karate chops. My million dollar training lets me beat dragons despite my human squishiness, minimal mechanical advantage, and lack of tool use.

Maybe I should reconsider my nerfs in order for the game to be more realistic.

[CyberThread]

This is cyberthread, he makes like topics every so often presumably out of boredom. And about 40% of the things he says shouldn't be taken seriously. His trolling is like, a staple round these ends.

Like pretzels.



I hate pretzels.....

[Tvtyrant]

I understand they get to cast flurry of blows unlimited times, making it an overpowered ability that even warlocks ad wizards are jealous of and an always on feather fall and speed boost.


How can a wizard overcome such obvious op abilities, that allow them to run , fall , and fight better then a low bab wizard?

They cannot. A wizard has no class features and terrible saves, so without spells they cannot hope to compete. And since we all know that Wizards never have any spells prepared and waste them all at the beginning of the day trying to kill the sun with fireball spells, clearly the Monk can never be matched.

I mean, he has partially charged wands for Pelor's sake!

[CyberThread]

They cannot. A sorcerers has no class features and terrible saves, so without spells they cannot hope to compete. And since we all know that sorcerers never have any spells prepared and waste them all at the beginning of the day trying to kill the sun with fireball spells, clearly the Monk can never be matched.

I mean, he has partially charged wands for Pelor's sake!



Fixed that for you

[Tvtyrant]

Fixed that for you

But you asked specifically how a Wizard could compete? We all know a Sorcerer crushes the Monk due to its many spell slots.

[dascarletm]

I hate pretzels.....

I have no strong feelings either way for pretzels.

[A Tad Insane]

I hate pretzels.....

I think now would be a good time to test trolls' pyrophagic, or do they lose that when they get the heretic template?

[137beth]

Guys, monks aren't as powerful as y'all seem to think:
Starting a monkday thread outside of monkday is an Evil act, making both the OP and monks vulnerable to a paladin's Smite Evil, as well as Holy Word. Also, some DMs ban evil PCs, making monks only playable one day per week.

[CyberThread]

Guys, monks aren't as powerful as y'all seem to think:
Starting a monkday thread outside of monkday is an Evil act, making both the OP and monks vulnerable to a paladin's Smite Evil, as well as Holy Word. Also, some DMs ban evil PCs, making monks only playable one day per week.


I disagree, making a monkday thread outside of monkday, clearly benefits from a surprise round, leaving the paladin flat footed.

[lytokk]

Actually, its a chaotic act, thus stripping the monk of his powers.

[gooddragon1]

Because they get knowledge (religion) as a class skill and 4+skill points per level. This allows them to potentially summon pazuzu at a very low level. In addition, they can then gain any ability in the game and even some abilities not in the game due to the ambiguous wording of manipulate form. This vast number of abilities gives them the flexibility to deal with any situation they may encounter which is the domain of tier 1.

[Alikat]

I understand they get to cast flurry of blows unlimited times, making it an overpowered ability that even warlocks ad wizards are jealous of and an always on feather fall and speed boost.


How can a wizard overcome such obvious op abilities, that allow them to run , fall , and fight better then a low bab wizard?

Actually I think it's about 13,200 flurries per day. Assuming a 24 hour day.

[CyberThread]

Actually, its a chaotic act, thus stripping the monk of his powers.

This was very much a planned act, making it lawful

[Zweisteine]

Actually I think it's about 13,200 flurries per day. Assuming a 24 hour day.
He didn't say unlimited flurries per day, did he?

Of course, it's important that the monk is an Elan, to make sure it lives up to that unlimited potential. Better yet, a necropolitan Elan!

[Chaosvii7]

Actually, its a chaotic act, thus stripping the monk of his powers.

As a card-carrying certified fallen Monk, I can confirm this.

But even with the free two feats a level and a +level untyped bonus to all my stats from falling out of favor, I STILL can't beat the party Truenamer. He's just too strong for me, all he does is roll his DC 2 Truespeak check and next thing I know, I wake up in the alley of my FLGS and my memory of the last 12 hours, as well as some or all of my money goes missing.

[Anachronity]

I once had a DM who literally thought monks were overpowered, and he said I could only play one if I permanently did half damage... on everything.

[nedz]

actually i think it's about 14,400 flurries per day. Assuming a 24 hour day.

ftfy
123465798

[Shining Wrath]

Monks are Tier 1 because in 5th edition of Jaronk's Tier Ranking System, the Tier System has undergone the same retooling as occurred to armor class going from AD&D to D&D 3.0.

[Ssalarn]

Monks are Tier 1 because in 5th edition of Jaronk's Tier Ranking System, the Tier System has undergone the same retooling as occurred to armor class going from AD&D to D&D 3.0.

This made me smile.

Ah, THAC0.....

[Snowbluff]

It's a little known fact that trolls are pyrophagic; they actually feed on flames.
Mhm. We kill them by giving them stomach aches.

Maybe I should reconsider my nerfs in order for the game to be more realistic.

Damn straight! I can punch like 100 feet away!

[dascarletm]

Damn straight! I can punch like 100 feet away!

dang. Do you also threaten everyone in that area?

[pilvento]

I once tried to play a monkish character without using the monk class, so I wouldnt be that overpowered, same reason of why you would play a swordsage instead of a ninja, that amount of invisibility plus sudden strike is just stupid, there must be an errata on that.

So I was making this "monk" out of fighter lvls, superior unarmed strike and twf to "flurry", not as good tho. And then in the midle of an encounter my DM told me I was out of Stuning Fists, I was shoked... Then I realiced that I need to be a monk to have more uses, thats just disgusting, making a feat that works better for a class thats already far more powerfull than the other martial clases and inmune to most of the spells from the other classes.

[137beth]

He didn't say unlimited flurries per day, did he?

Of course, it's important that the monk is an Elan, to make sure it lives up to that unlimited potential. Better yet, a necropolitan Elan!

Well, if it isn't per day, then a wizard can cast unlimited gates...

Oh, and by posting about a monk Elan on GitP, rather than any other website, you have conflated it with Elan McTarquinson, who is Chaotic Good, resulting in a loss of monk powers.

Monks are Tier 1 because in 5th edition of Jaronk's Tier Ranking System, the Tier System has undergone the same retooling as occurred to armor class going from AD&D to D&D 3.0.
Wouldn't that make monks tier 2? Unless the new bottom was 0.

[A Tad Insane]

Wouldn't that make monks tier 2? Unless the new bottom was 0.

There tier one because Samurais are to scary with their eyeball thing for any sane human to play outside of a BBEG in call of Cthulhu

[RedMage125]

I can.

:D

Obviously the balancing factor is their feat tax for weapon proficiency. However I find that not strong enough.

I force all monks at my table to spend a number of rounds equal to their level to "power up" for these abilities. I cut the time in half for minor ones, and double it for major powers. Looking at you Quivering Palm.

These rounds need to involve the character in an open-legged stance screaming or grunting, or saying the name of the ability.

As a concession to my players, I do allow characters to glow when they do this. Though I think that might be too strong a power, and might have to remove it. Especially since all the VOP's are abusing it to light dark rooms.

Using a similar rule, the monk's player can get a +2 circumstance bonus to their attack roll after powering up, if they loudly shout the name of the maneuver they are performing.

A high level monk who has just spent the last 12 rounds powering up to do his Ki Blast ability, and shouts "Hadouken!" at the table as he rolls his attack roll has a much better chance of hitting. Even if what he's hitting is the entire Giant's Forest...

[dascarletm]

Using a similar rule, the monk's player can get a +2 circumstance bonus to their attack roll after powering up, if they loudly shout the name of the maneuver they are performing.

A high level monk who has just spent the last 12 rounds powering up to do his Ki Blast ability, and shouts "Hadouken!" at the table as he rolls his attack roll has a much better chance of hitting. Even if what he's hitting is the entire Giant's Forest...

Woah, that's far too powerful of an effect. I'm bringing the banhammer down on that right quick.

[Snowbluff]

dang. Do you also threaten everyone in that area?

That and more. Everyone knows a true martial artist has more reach for AoO!

[dascarletm]

That and more. Everyone knows a true martial artist has more reach for AoO!

Dear god...


You're banned from my games for far too much munchkinery.

[RedMage125]

God-forbid you allow the Anything Goes School monks from a 3rd party sourcebook. Those guys can eventually overcome any challenge.

Even Martial Arts Rhythmic Gymnastics!

[Vedhin]

Monks are OP because splatbooks let them turn invisible and jump into other planes and all sorts of other broken stuff.
How are the poor wizards supposed to hit something they can't find? Meanwhile, the monk just beats them and their d4 HD to a bloody pulp.

[CyberThread]

I have a spellbook!


I have my fists!


See who wins? Brawns over brains baby

[RolkFlameraven]

God-forbid you allow the Anything Goes School monks from a 3rd party sourcebook. Those guys can eventually overcome any challenge.

Even Martial Arts Rhythmic Gymnastics!

Well not cats... that was more of a "can't beat um, join um" type deal.

[Dorian Gray]

I once had a DM who literally thought monks were overpowered, and he said I could only play one if I permanently did half damage... on everything.

How would you notice the difference?:smalltongue:

[Vedhin]

How would you notice the difference?:smalltongue:

He only had penultimate power.

[grarrrg]

Still, I am sick of this "1d6 scaling unarmed" crap. I have taken martial arts lessons for 2 weeks, and I can cut through hundred pound groups of swords with me karate chops. My million dollar training lets me beat dragons despite my human squishiness, minimal mechanical advantage, and lack of tool use.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "1d6 scaling unarmed" junk that's going on in the d20 system right now. Monks deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Monk in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my Monk.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single Monk and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest Monks known to mankind.

Monks are thrice as sharp as normal unarmed damage and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a hand can cut through, a Monk can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a Monk could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their Monks of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the Monks first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Monks are simply the best unarmed that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system.

tl;dr = Monks need to do more damage in d20

[Vedhin]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "1d6 scaling unarmed" junk that's going on in the d20 system right now. Monks deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Monk in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my Monk.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single Monk and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest Monks known to mankind.

Monks are thrice as sharp as normal unarmed damage and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a hand can cut through, a Monk can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a Monk could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their Monks of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the Monks first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Monks are simply the best unarmed that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system.

tl;dr = Monks need to do more damage in d20

Here is the stat block I propose for Monk unarmed damage:




Levels
Damage
Critical
Enhancement Bonus*


1-3
1d20
19-20/x3
+1


4-7
2d20
17-20/x4
+2


8-11
4d20
13-20/x6
+4


12-15
6d20
9-20/x8
+6


16-19
8d20
5-20/x10
+8


20
10d20
1-20/x12
+10


*These can be exchanged for magic weapon abilities.

When the unarmed strike is wielded two-handed, all damage it deals is multiplied by 20. Furthermore, it ignores all effects that would reduce the damage the target takes, and all miss chances.


Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Monks in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Monks need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.


Edit: Snowbluff, that should take care of it

[Snowbluff]

Thanks, Grrarrrg. :smalltongue:

Dear god...


You're banned from my games for far too much munchkinery.
Oh, man! That's what I get for being the One.

Here is the stat block I propose for Monk unarmed damage:




Levels
Damage
Critical
Enhancement Bonus*


1-3
1d20
19-20/x3
+1


4-7
2d20
17-20/x4
+2


8-11
4d20
13-20/x6
+4


12-15
6d20

9-20/x8
+6


16-19
8d20
5-20/x10
+8


20
10d20
1-20/x12
+10


*These can be exchanged for magic weapon abilities.


Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Monks in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Monks need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.
THey need to do liek 14 times much damage I can one inch punch the empire state building and it would fall over I must ignore dr hardness and concealment.

[CyberThread]

Wizard Cast " I give up"

[Alex12]

Personally, I find that playing Monks, Samurai, and Truenamers is just far too easy. I mean, there's no challenge if you can beat up the Tarrasque at third-level.

Now I know Wizards (with their low HD, lack of class features, low numbers of spells per day, and the crippling vulnerabilities of a spellbook and inability to wear armor) and Druids (with their inability to wear metal armor and crappy spell list that doesn't even include the important blasty spells like Fireball or Lightning Bolt) are looked down upon on these forums, but it turns out that if you gestalt them, it actually works out okay. I mean, obviously it'll never match a Truenamer or Monk (nevermind the almighty Commoner), but a gestalt Wizard/Druid (provided you've got straight 18s) is actually pretty playable with some optimization- I'd say it's probably as good as a Fighter.

[CyberThread]

Yeah I know right, atlest Wizards can just you know, cast lighting bolt

Druids have to call it and everything and be like " Yo girl, ya be like wanna to come over " and bolt be like " Ya know, we be comin over, SLUMBER PARTY!"

It just takes so much longer....

[137beth]

Personally, I find that playing Monks, Samurai, and Truenamers is just far too easy. I mean, there's no challenge if you can beat up the Tarrasque at third-level.

Now I know Wizards (with their low HD, lack of class features, low numbers of spells per day, and the crippling vulnerabilities of a spellbook and inability to wear armor) and Druids (with their inability to wear metal armor and crappy spell list that doesn't even include the important blasty spells like Fireball or Lightning Bolt) are looked down upon on these forums, but it turns out that if you gestalt them, it actually works out okay. I mean, obviously it'll never match a Truenamer or Monk (nevermind the almighty Commoner), but a gestalt Wizard/Druid (provided you've got straight 18s) is actually pretty playable with some optimization- I'd say it's probably as good as a Fighter.

That's gotta hurt, gestalting druid//wizard strips the wizard of some of its greatest advantages: its d4 hit-dice and 2 skill points/level. Those are the same as the commoner, and giving them up for wildshape might not be a good trade!

[Angelalex242]

The Monk is Tier 1 because Chuck Norris said so.

That is all.

If you disagree, you will be roundhouse kicked in 3...2...*SPLAT* oooh, that was messy...

[Captnq]

Today, I had to take a cat I loved very much and return him to the shelter. He's blind. He's very loyal, but I just can't afford to keep cleaning up from all his accidents. Frankly, I put this in my top ten worst days ever. So I log on to here, trying to get my mind off things, only to read this thread. I can honestly say I haven't felt this offended in years. Dunno if it's losing Granite, or the topic, but this whole thread just makes me sad.

You know what Cyber? You might think you are funny, but you aren't. I find most of your posts annoying and boring. You start topics without doing any research into them. You contribute very little. Sometimes I honestly think you are some sort of Bot that is programed and maintained by the site to get conversations going. Normally I could deal with all that. This thread? You aren't even trying. I'm not angry about it. I'm just so... nauseated. I'm going to do something I swore I would never do. I'm putting you on my blocked list. I thought I could deal with anyone and accept any point of view, but frankly, I just don't care anymore. You insult me. Rather then waste time with you, from now on I'm just going to ignore you.

Goodbye.
Good luck.
I'm going to bed.

[CyberThread]

Edit: Oh blah, nothing in this thread should have offended you, sorry about your cat but no one heres fault. Don't vent your anger out on me :)



Anyways am going to bed, humor is subjective and this threads party just got dumped on.

[RedMage125]

Well not cats... that was more of a "can't beat um, join um" type deal.

That's the beauty of it. Who would thing to use a housecat against anything but a commoner?

[Sir Chuckles]

That's the beauty of it. Who would thing to use a housecat against anything but a commoner?

Use it against a Wizard, duh.
Especially an Elf Wizard.

[Banaticus]

I once had a DM who literally thought monks were overpowered, and he said I could only play one if I permanently did half damage... on everything.Well, of course. When you compare monks with wizards who've filled their spell slots with save-or-take-damage-maybe evocation spells, monks are better than pieces of cotton.

[gooddragon1]

Well, of course. When you compare monks with wizards who've filled their spell slots with save-or-take-damage-maybe evocation spells, monks are better than pieces of cotton.

You mean save-or-take damage-maybe-and sometimes only half even when they don't save spells?

[Dorian Gray]

Use it against a Wizard, duh.
Especially an Elf Wizard.

In all seriousness, I think elf wizards are worse than monks. I've actually only seen about 20% of those I played survive to get 3rd level spells. That constitution penalty is terrible...

[weckar]

In all seriousness, I think elf wizards are worse than monks. I've actually only seen about 20% of those I played survive to get 3rd level spells. That constitution penalty is terrible...
But the Dex boost and native bow proficiency is yummy.

[Inevitability]

Simply. Put a naked monk and a naked wizard next to each other. They have just come into existence, but all around them are weapons, armor, magic items, spellbooks...

The monk and wizard have to fight each other to the death.

The wizard tries to sit down and prepare spells, but the monk just beats him up.
If the wizard tries to engage the monk in melee combat, he's doomed to fail.

This works with any class.
Sorcerers? Don't make me laugh. He'll just end up getting a ton of AoO's to the face and die.
Fighters? They'll have to spend precious turns on putting armor on and getting a weapon.
Even Truenamers will lose, though it'll be a close call.

[weckar]

Simply. Put a naked monk and a naked wizard next to each other. They have just come into existence, but all around them are weapons, armor, magic items, spellbooks...

The monk and wizard have to fight each other to the death.

The wizard tries to sit down and prepare spells, but the monk just beats him up.
If the wizard tries to engage the monk in melee combat, he's doomed to fail.

This works with any class.
Sorcerers? Don't make me laugh. He'll just end up getting a ton of AoO's to the face and die.
Fighters? They'll have to spend precious turns on putting armor on and getting a weapon.
Even Truenamers will lose, though it'll be a close call.
I think it would mostly just be a very awkward situation. I doubt 'kill one another' will be very high on their list of priorities.

[Cloud]

Monks are tier 1 because they're the most anime and overpowered of classes, clearly.

I mean, what do these special snowflakes get at 1st level? They not only get better AC (through adding their awesomely high Wisdom to it), they also get a bonus feat (which we all know are the best class features ever, that's why Fighters are also tier 1), and they can just stand there and flip out (like a damn ninja), doubling their number of hellishly difficult to avoid attacks through their OP Flurry of Blows ability. Let not even mention their fists do more damage.

That's just the basics, though. Later on, they get to run real fast. Why? Because they are obviously based off those martial artist types from anime, which means they're automatically OP. I believe why slow falling is so good has been covered, so I won't beat that dead horse. They can teleport, speak to anything, punch through armor with their bare fists, dodge giant explosions, and they are resistant to magic, all without using spell slots. If that's not the height of tier 1, I don't know what is.

Oh, and they are immune to disease and poison, so we never have to watch these perfect little death machines get sniffles, so that we don't have that weakness to assault. Also they're so special that once they reach level 20, BAM, they turn into an outsider, what the hell is that about? That's not even to mention that OP ability they get where they can punch you and then tell you to die. Let's not even get started on the feats they've made for this overpowered, cheesy, munchkin class; it would make me physically ill to even speak more about them.

I actually feel ill typing this. It's all sarcasm guys, seriously.