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Name_Here
2007-02-16, 08:19 AM
I've been running a home-brewed campaign since november of last year. Since we are in college the new semester brought a shakeup to several players schedules and they could no longer make it to the sessions. So one of them I killed of in a heroic battle while the other left to join a group of mercs.

Another one of my friends upon hearing this said how much he would like to play. We went over the various races you can be and what classes there are to choose from and he was very excited. He eventually settled on an elf Paladin who would shout out prayers in Hierenious's name during battle. Seeing as how we already had a Knight who does the same thing with St. Cuthbert I thought it would be a ton of fun. Also I thought the Paladin would be an incredibly easy class to cut his teeth on since I'm not huge into creating scenarios where no matter what the Paladin does he either ends up dead or fallen. Though of course the way his eyes lit up when he read about the Blackguard class that may be what he wants.

But then the trouble started. Getting him to choose skills that would be useful to his charecter was like pulling teeth from a bull. He kept on choosing cross-class skills like Psicraft and Autohypnosis and bringing them to the max that he could have while leaving 1 or 2 in skills like ride, diplomacy, or sense motive. Eventually I settled on him moving theskill points out of the psionic skills and into Survival and a couple other cross class skills.

And then comes everybody's favorite time of charecter creation. Picking out equipment. Seeing as how he was starting at level 4 he had a fair bit of cash to play with and since I really didn't care about small amounts of cash like the amount needed for rations and a backpack that far in the game he could spend his 5,000+ gold entirely on magical items. But the boy became distracted and wandered off without buying a single item. Course by this time I'm already torqued off since his skill selection had taken 40 minutes longer than it ever should have. So I picked out some gear for him and made him a squire to the paladin the group served under thinking that it would be a simple and believable way of working him into the campaign. It was but unfortunately he never could quite understand phrase "The ends never justify the means" Which I believe is the cornerstone of the Paladin class. Course that's not surprising since he hasn't even bothered to learn what his class features are useful for "I use my divine grace on him" is not exactly an uncommon phrase from the boy no matter how many times I tell him it doesn't work that way.

And to make matters worse he really has no idea how to interact with people in the campaign world. He has actually approached the king and demanded power calling the king a false ruler in the deal, He has approached guards that he has never met before and offered to let them follow him.

Anyway I was hoping to get a few pieces of advice from the people here who have far more experience then I do.
#1 Was I foolish to let him take the paladin class. I love Paladins and a good deal of my campaign deals with people who either have the class or claim the title and I think that may have clouded my judgement about it. If the Paladin class isn't great for him what other classes could he be? I want him to steer clear of magic classes since he'd never learn the spell lists and we already have a glut good supply of upfront fighters. Maybe a rogue would be a good fit.
#2 what's the best way to cut him if he can't cut it with the next class that he chooses to be? Should I just sit him down and say "Look it's not working out. You are no longer invited to sit at my table" or is there an easier way to break it too him that his thursday nights are now free?

KuReshtin
2007-02-16, 09:02 AM
You could always use one of his encounters with NPCs as a reason to start a fight which he cannot survive, forcing him to re-roll a new character with a new class, that might be easier for him to play.

I'd say that the best way would be to be straight forward and tell him that it's not working out.
Then kill him off by letting a herd of bison to trample him to death.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-16, 09:11 AM
Seems to me that he's not really caring about being believable or playing "in character". Explain to him that he's acting like an idiot (you may wish to use more diplomatic words here), and tell him he's got to treat people like PEOPLE, not just characters in an MMORPG. Right now it sounds like he's treating your game world like it's any other game he can toss in his PS2.

Impress on him the fact that you're here to be at least semi-serious. Presumably he's an adult (or very close to one) due to the fact he's in college, so unless he's an especially immature individual he should at least understand the fact. It might be that you overwhelmed him with choice on the skills thing (and to be honest, I probably would have taken Autohypnosis myself... It's a lot better than anything else, skills-wise), but that's still not an explanation for the rest of his behaviour.

As for advice on actually cutting him, should it come to that... Just be up front about it, but don't do it in front of the other players. Tell them whatever you like afterwards, but give him the courtesy of you dropping him being a one on one thing. You both know you're going to tell the other players what's happened, but it'll be a lot easier (and a lot calmer) if you just do it one on one. Be gentle, but firm. Explain that he's not working out and you think he should leave... Though if he gets really nervous and begs to stay, give him one last shot. He might shape up his act.

oriong
2007-02-16, 09:12 AM
Nothing wrong with letting him pick the Paladin class, it's actually a very good class for a first time player: extremely straightforward role-playing and character abilities, without a lot of the decision making other classes require, especially since a lot of the abilities are constantly active.

Here's a question:

1) How long did you explain the rules to him? He seems fairly unsure of things and a bit confused by them. He may require a bit more tutoring especially if you tried to give it all to him in just an hour or two before the game.

2) have you asked him why he is doing these things? If he's the sort who will basically just act on whatever whim enters his head at the time then paladin may not have been for him, and he may not be right for your game. Talk to him about it before the next game and try and let him know it's not a good idea. If he persists in these sorts of things then have him Fall, but make atonement an easy and obvious option for him (with only a relatively minor quest involved).

Zeb The Troll
2007-02-16, 09:32 AM
There doesn't seem to be a lot of variation in the advice you're getting here, and I don't disagree with any of it. Two things I'd like to either add or highlight though.

1.) Talk with him at some point when you both have spare time and not during a game session, as was mentioned. But I don't just mean if you're going to cut him from the game. I mean take him aside on some other day and go over some of the basic points of the game/system where you can address them without him having to feel awkward about it. Maybe you can come up with a solo adventure kind of thing where he gets to feel out his character and his abilities without hindering the regular group. It doesn't have to be much and it doesn't have to count for anything. It can just be a series of scenarios where he can have the opportunity to act appropriately and you can guide him through what may be appropriate actions. (e.g. "A shadowy figure enters your favorite tavern and takes a seat in the corner. He seems to be watching you closely." "I beat him to death with my helmet!" "No, see, okay here's what would normally happen. You might want to first do your Detect Evil and see if there's anything obviously disconcerting about him. Even if there is, a paladin would never 'smite first and ask questions later'. Finally, you have a weapon and should it come to blows, using your helmet as one might not be the best approach." etc, etc.)

2.) It probably wouldn't be a bad thing if he knows that it's just as awkward for you to have to cut him as it is for him to be cut. (At least it sounds to me like it would be for you from your original post.) This sets it up so that he can understand that you're not just being a jerk, but he's really being problematic. Now, at this point, he may ask for another chance. Again someone else said this, but I would think that there's no problem giving him another shot without much fight because he'll hopefully have had some 'serious' knocked into him and he'll realize that this isn't just a lark for you guys. Either that or maybe he wasn't that serious about it to begin with either and maybe he'll just be on his way with no harm done.

That's my buck fifty. I'll be sending you a bill shortly. :smallcool:

Surfer99
2007-02-16, 10:43 AM
well the others covered my feelings quite well
if he does not know how to behave in game he needs to learn the easiest way *to me that is* has been to
1) all his actions have consequences, DIRE consequences
He as a paladin cross a high ranking official/guard/priest
throw his ass in jail strip him of his powers and send him to spent 3 weeks in a labor camp.

2) killing the character if it does stupid stuff, no DM intervention and every silly thing is challenged with a equal single thing (i guess this is basicly the same as 1 tho.. )

but the most important thing EVER
Dont scold him in public, the most sure way to create enemies is public humiliation.

so grap him up before the next session and tell him how you expect a paladin to act and stress that he cannot pretend like the "NPC's" are not real, because they are real in this world.

Good Luck.

Olethros
2007-02-16, 10:58 AM
It sounds to me a little like he is "trying to be the funy one." If thats true, and it's not entertaining the other players, make sure you don't laugh. Even the nervous, I can't believe it's this again, laugh will encourage the behavior.

Also, double check with him that it isn't his version of virtuous conviction. Some people get the LG nature of the Pallidin confused with the Lawfull Stupid nature of there favorite shock jock on the radio.

Like was said, talk to him, the earlier probly the better.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-16, 11:28 AM
I have seen this problem with several first time players. They are uncomfortable role playing so they do weird stuff thinking that is what they are doing one guy had a dwarf that just had to pee on every monster we encountered another guy bought a donkey and had it follow him everywhere another guy always carried at least 500ft of rope just in case. the goofiness was just a way to feel like they were fitting in once we explained that it was a little more serious and you should play your character like they wanted live through the night they either started playing more seriously or decided it wasn't for them and quit.

AoiRorentsu
2007-02-16, 11:31 AM
#1- I don't think it was foolish to let him be a Paladin- and people are right when they say Paladins are a good class. But, call me devious, part of me wonders if he should be a Paladin on the character sheet. He clearly isn't acting the part, so why force him? Maybe make him a rogue who, for one reason or another, is masquerading as a paladin because (as you've said i think) they seem to be important people. Tell the other PCs he's still a paladin if you like, though perhaps that kind of intra-party deception isn't the best idea. As a rogue, he'd have 0 activated abilities (you'll have to explain how flanking and flat-footedness work so he can "'smite internal organs' I mean 'smite EVIL!!!!'") and all the skill points in the world to mess around with. This latter bit does make things a bit more complicated, but it might be a better fit for him than a paladin (especially because a paladin of that level may be casting spells soon). He kind of seems more like a child to me- not necessarily malicious, just doing things that don't make sense because his frontal lobe isn't telling him he shouldn't, yet. Nurture him into the game- giving him his own sidequest, perhaps as a "How I got to know (insert patron's name here)," is definitely a good idea.

As for #2- i think the advice people have given on this has been really good. If you want him to keep playing with you, and would just prefer that he not be an idiot, take him aside one-on-one and talk with him about it. Its easy to forget sometimes that we were all once kind of silly with this too. I have a story about an elven magic-user/thief (this was a 2nd ED game), who, after being caught spying by a group of high-level Zhentarum Wizards from a window in their very high tower that he had flown up to and thus could easily escape from, shrugged when our DM said "all nine of them are casting magic missle on you." Needless to say the Zhents were not happy, even when we offered to clean the elf-stain off of their tower for them.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-16, 11:45 AM
He called the king a false ruler. To his face. While demanding power.

Why is this buffoon not dead yet?

That's the first question right there. His character should have been executed on the spot. I find that consequences are a most excellent way to curb outrageous behavior.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-16, 11:47 AM
He called the king a false ruler. To his face. While demanding power.

Why is this buffoon not dead yet?

That's the first question right there. His character should have been executed on the spot. I find that consequences are a most excellent way to curb outrageous behavior.

Agreed.

You also may want to give him a less rp-intensive character than the Paladin. Perhaps a barbarian, where he can get away with being uncouth and a braggart.

daggaz
2007-02-16, 12:25 PM
Depending on the king's and his advisors' religious slant, he should have either been a) executed on the spot or b) locked up in prison until the priests could ascertain his mental condition and the will of his/their god, before they either 1) executed him on the spot, 2) tossed him into a dungeon to 'prove' himself, 3) stripped him off title and rank (and the god might very well have stripped him of paladin powers) and sent him on exile, 4) tried to cure him somehow or 5) actually conceded or compromised with him in some way, due to the king actually being corrupt or the advisors wanting to steal/undermine power or the gods actually wanting it this way.At any rate, there should always be consequences, and in this case, serious consequences.

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 12:31 PM
Stat-wise, a paladin is a good introduction to a game if fighter is unavailable.

RP wise, they're one of the hardest classes to even pull off acceptably. I honestly would never suggest a starting player play a paladin unless they specifically said they wanted to play someone like Lancelot or Guanine. And I'd warn him that Lancelot fell, and he'd have the possibility of doing so as well.

Have you asked him why he thought it would be acceptable to challenge the king in that way? Have you tried RPing the characters appropriately, to show him that he can screw himself over?

If I were DMing the guards for example, I'd have them look at eachother in bafflement, and then have one ask. "Who in the 9 hells are you, and why would I want to give up my nice paying day job to 'follow' you?"

If he persisted, one would pretend to listen, while another got reinforcements, and people from the local sanitarium.

DrummingDM
2007-02-16, 12:38 PM
Yeah...the first thing I thought of when I read that he accused to king of unjustly obtaining the throne was that that would have been enough to end that character in any game I run.

I agree with everyone who's posted thus far, and I too tend to find that repercussions are the easiest way to get players in line. Make this player aware that his character exists in a living world where his actions affect others, and vise-versa.

And the Paladin wasn't a bad choice for a first-time player...it's a distinctly iconic character, one that resonates with most people fairly clearly as to what is expected of a holy warrior. And this guy is missing that point ENTIRELY. What I would do is sit him down, and explain your concerns - his characters actions don't befit a paladin, and you want to make sure that you take the time to properly explain what is expected of him both in character, and out of character.

If he continues to be a problem...don't be afraid to remove him. It is your game after all.

Name_Here
2007-02-16, 12:43 PM
He called the king a false ruler. To his face. While demanding power.

Why is this buffoon not dead yet?

That's the first question right there. His character should have been executed on the spot. I find that consequences are a most excellent way to curb outrageous behavior.
Well Metagame wise it's because I didn't want to just kill his charecter in the second session. In game wise the king didn't want to have his ball disturbed by needing somebody to drag a bleeding body out and then he got distracted by the coup attempt and just kinda forgot about it.

I'll definately talk to him the first chance I get and I'll try to get him to sit down and really come up with a backstory for his charecter as well as try and get him to understand that this is a serious campaign and the way he is running his charecter is causing disturbences in the game.

oriong
2007-02-16, 12:45 PM
RP wise, they're one of the hardest classes to even pull off acceptably. I honestly would never suggest a starting player play a paladin unless they specifically said they wanted to play someone like Lancelot or Guanine. And I'd warn him that Lancelot fell, and he'd have the possibility of doing so as well.




Actually I'd complete disagree. The Paladin is an incredibly easy class to roleplay. The knight-in-shining-armor motif is something everyone is familiar with and it's easy to understand and represent in game. It's fairy-tale simple.

The problem comes up if A) the DM throws the player into moral conundrums where 'what is really good' comes into question and hopefully this isn't something you'll push on a first time roleplayer right away (it's also not really the way D+D is naturally inclined to go) or B) if the player has some strange rebelliousness or just isn't inclined towards that sort of character. Not everyone likes to play a goody two shoes.

Diggorian
2007-02-16, 12:58 PM
I've never recruited someone without table top RP experience into my group before, it's a good criterion to avoid alot of the problems you've had.

Address the issues you've listed here with the new guy, emphasizing where he's falling short and why it's bad. Answer any follow-up questions he has and anticipate other questions he might ask based on his misunderstanding. Offer to let him him simply observe a session, if he wants to jump in now treat him like any other player. My first D&D character didnt survive the first session, my second lasted about half a year. :smallwink:

With players new to D&D like games I describe the setting first and then ask what type of character they'd want to be in this world. Their concept is matched with a class which I describe the fluff for, this being the essence of what a class is; if that fits their ideal, then I describe the crunchy abilities.