Alternate deity rules?

[WarKitty]

I want to play a setting where the distinction between deities and non-deities is a bit more blurry than in the standard settings - something that incorporates many more minor/local deities, semi-deities, and so forth. To do this I could use something that makes deities powerful, preferably with some abilities drawn from their worshipers, but not as powerful as regular D&D gods, especially outside of their own areas. Any good rule-sets or suggestions?

[Urpriest]

The very last Dragon magazine had guidelines for putting together custom Demon Lords based on existing monsters. Since one of the big virtues of a system with local deities and the like is uniqueness, you might be able to adapt that setup to your problem.

[Coidzor]

There's a Rokugan d20 system that may have some insights into this, though I've never mucked around with it so I can't speak to the execution or if it even has some rules for creating your own other than having some examples for ballparking it.

[WarKitty]

Not bad ideas. I'm thinking I could use/build something almost class-like. Part of the goal is that PC's could work their way up, becoming demigods at level 21 and progressing to full deities.

[Phelix-Mu]

Some gods actually do promote mortals to semi-divinity, making notable figures into their heralds or champions. You could probably design a template that would model effects granted to such "semi-godlings" or what have you.

Combine that with toning down/removing entirely the Divine Salient Abilities and other stats for true gods, and you could set up a new set of tiers for gods based around iterations of the template earned (make it stackable, you get another iteration every X class levels). I'd also go with some other templates for flavor...pseudonatural (the epic one) for Elder Gods/Cthulu-esque, paragon for the racial pantheon gods, half-celestial or half-fiend for anyone espousing those alignment types, half-elemental for druids (they get to stack it up to four times, once for each elemental subtype). All templates would be without LA, of course, since these are supposed to be representative of powering-up built into reaching level X and representing whatever it is you represent on behalf of a superior, the universe, an overgod, etc.

[Coidzor]

Mythic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic)rules from Pathfinder may also be of interest, I suppose.

[slaydemons]

Kitty, I like the template one. You know if you wanted your players opinion on the matter.

[Coidzor]

Some gods actually do promote mortals to semi-divinity, making notable figures into their heralds or champions. You could probably design a template that would model effects granted to such "semi-godlings" or what have you.

Combine that with toning down/removing entirely the Divine Salient Abilities and other stats for true gods, and you could set up a new set of tiers for gods based around iterations of the template earned (make it stackable, you get another iteration every X class levels). I'd also go with some other templates for flavor...pseudonatural (the epic one) for Elder Gods/Cthulu-esque, paragon for the racial pantheon gods, half-celestial or half-fiend for anyone espousing those alignment types, half-elemental for druids (they get to stack it up to four times, once for each elemental subtype). All templates would be without LA, of course, since these are supposed to be representative of powering-up built into reaching level X and representing whatever it is you represent on behalf of a superior, the universe, an overgod, etc.

Evolved Undead meets Divine Ranks? Intriguing.

[Phelix-Mu]

Evolved Undead meets Divine Ranks? Intriguing.

This would also be a good way to implement stuff that normally is relegated to the stack of required magic items for non-spellcasters, which, though fun and iconic, always seemed rather sad to me. While an epic fighter is ten kinds of kickass, his kickass loses substantial oomph if he is missing his gear (or if it breaks, is stolen, falls into the lava, etc). Also, his chances of surviving appropriate challenges plummets.

Thus, here are some ideas you could use. Just spitballing now; apparently some of my brain cells aren't ready for sleep yet:

- Free iterations of Ancestral Relic: Which god is without his panoply? Whether it's Odin's spear, Athena's shield (dutifully carried for Daddy), or Vecna and his terribly suspicious body parts, every god has some awesome. These should probably count as artifacts, and the godling can reacquire them if stolen via a ritual (or simply always has perfect knowledge of where the item is and who has it), if they break can be reforged, and they can only be used by the godling themself or by those to whom they give dispensation.

- Instead of an Ancestral Relic, the godling may choose to have an animal or cohort, via Wild Cohort-like mechanic. This is essentially an intelligent animal, maybe with the Legendary Animal template after being present for X levels (or when the character chooses this feature twice for the same animal).

- Next, the basics like DR and energy resistances. I'd probably have the energy resistances start at two types at 5 or 10, and then two blocks of 5 to apply to the rest at every 2nd or 3rd level or so, to a maximum of 15 I think. DR should probably be DR/nothing, or maybe invent DR/divine, to represent how Immortals can kill each other with ease, but the attacks of all others are as nothing (or almost so, lol). I'd also probably hand out an option to choose force resistance.

- From back in the days of the Chosen of Mystra, immunity to one spell of each spell level, 1st through 9th. This is fairly minor in the grand scope of things, but fun to customize.

- Maybe SLAs, but only for non-casters. Would probably want to make this less effective for high tiers, because a few SLAs can really take the lid off of full casters. More uses or more different kinds as level increases. Maybe select off a list.

- Domains! Role play-determined, but I think every epic character worth their salt has probably done enough characterization to pick a few of these as they increase in level.

[Clistenes]

Have you checked Green Ronin's Spirit Template?. You add it to any creature, and that creature becomes able to grant a domain to a Shaman.

There is also Mongoose Publishing's version of the Shaman. Their are a bit different to Green Ronin's, with they can grant spells too.

[BWR]

There's a Rokugan d20 system that may have some insights into this, though I've never mucked around with it so I can't speak to the execution or if it even has some rules for creating your own other than having some examples for ballparking it.

Not really. The closest you have is an Oracle template in Creatures of Rokugan (and a powerful template it is too), but nothing else resembling rules for bridging the mortal and the divine. At least not stuff that doesn't already exist in some form in D&D.

I'm curious, though: what made you think Rokugan d20 would have stuff like that?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic or insulting, just honestly curious.

As for the OP, isn't this exactly what D&D is? The mehcanics work equally well no matter how you fluff it. Say you want some local ruler to be the god-king, one who is the incarnation of a god on earth, ruling the city. Give him cleric levels and fluff it that the power comes from belief and worship of the citizens (or the existence of the realm, or some magic stone) rather than from an external god. Some god wolf (like the one in Princess Mononoke) is a direwolf with a couple of templates. Solars are explicitly borderline, capable of making the jump to minor god but choosing not to.

Honestly, I think lots of 3.x design philosophy has harmed its use as an all-purpose fantasy game. There are plenty of examples from earlier editions of creatures that are in some way pseudo-divine and don't have any special divine mechancs to seperate them from others. Along comes 3.x and organizes and standardizes everything (not a bad idea in itself) but for some reason this installs the idea that you need specific mechanics that different from other mechanics to represent the difference between things when there is a minimal or imaginary difference.

[Eldan]

I've built minor deities and powerful local spirits mostly by just taking semi-powerful monsters and giving them Favoured Soul levels.

[sideswipe]

my favourite way of doing it is that level 10 is considered high level.

over level 10 is a minor god, they have to be a paragon of an existing god. (essentially each level is not gained with experience but given by a higher god).

gods are level 16+. lvl 20 being a set of 6-12 ruling gods who rule a section of the world (like nature, hell, elements, death, good, evil. your choice of how they are split).

when a character becomes lvl 10 they can be given there first rank (lvl 11) by there god for great service and become a vestige or whatever you wish to call it. basicly a high level servant. the god can give levels for completing great tasks or being extremely devout. (should be an end of an adventure reward and given rarely).
if they kill another servant of another god who is opposed to your god in alignment (lvl 11+) they can drain their essence.
if they do, and the fallen servant is higher level or the same then they are currently in there gods eyes they gain a level for a great accomplishment in there gods name.

a few things of note -

gods are usually in groups and alliances. so it is easy to tell the opposing ones.

each god only has say 20-30 lvl 11+ servants so they are rare.

if the servant becomes lvl 15 they can only increase by becoming a god. to do this they drain the essence of a lvl 16+ god.

to gain power faster each level after 10 gains 2hd, 1 extra feat and +1 to an ability score on top of what they would normally get from levelling in a normal game.

[Ruethgar]

Spells and Spellcraft: Legends and Lairs p95 has rules for small gods. Have to be CR 6+ and get a ton of followers to count. You may want to increase the CR minimum at a whim, but the power small gods gain is mostly support in their local area and nothing near a divine rank.

[Prime32]

I want to play a setting where the distinction between deities and non-deities is a bit more blurry than in the standard settings - something that incorporates many more minor/local deities, semi-deities, and so forth. To do this I could use something that makes deities powerful, preferably with some abilities drawn from their worshipers, but not as powerful as regular D&D gods, especially outside of their own areas. Any good rule-sets or suggestions?Kitsunemori Campaign Setting has some Shinto stuff, letting members of more mystical races draw power from shrines, and strengthening or weakening certain magic based on whether the local gods approve of you. Might need some tweaking balance-wise, but the fluff is great.

Just making gods Outsiders in a setting that's otherwise humans and animals only could be enough to make them feel special depending on how you play it. Outsider HD are strong, and they're immune to spells that target the Humanoid and Animal types - in a setting where a combination of charm person and charm animal normally lets you befriend anyone, having a type of creature that's immune to both can feel pretty awesome.

[Gildedragon]

The idea of deity-ing via templates to represent Divine Ranks and Divine Abilities (or at least to build up from DiR - to DiR 0)
The legendary template seems like a great starting point
For gear one could go for a Cost Free item of legacy type thing but start with a pre-epic item and give it epic abilities

[Coidzor]

Not really. The closest you have is an Oracle template in Creatures of Rokugan (and a powerful template it is too), but nothing else resembling rules for bridging the mortal and the divine. At least not stuff that doesn't already exist in some form in D&D.

I'm curious, though: what made you think Rokugan d20 would have stuff like that?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic or insulting, just honestly curious.

I was thinking more along the lines of "does it have something to represent a small god or local deity or divinity that's not quite on the level of the 3.5 rules" than apotheosis into one per se.

I'd have sworn I remembered something about there being local deities in Rokugan who occasionally had to be smacked around/saved/purified. And since they weren't covered in Oriental Adventures it seemed like the greater amount of material for Rokugan d20 might just have something there. Or L5R would.

I guess something else must have bled into my memory then. x.x

[BWR]

I was thinking more along the lines of "does it have something to represent a small god or local deity or divinity that's not quite on the level of the 3.5 rules" than apotheosis into one per se.

I'd have sworn I remembered something about there being local deities in Rokugan who occasionally had to be smacked around/saved/purified. And since they weren't covered in Oriental Adventures it seemed like the greater amount of material for Rokugan d20 might just have something there. Or L5R would.

I guess something else must have bled into my memory then. x.x

What it has is basically what D&D has - various supernatural entities, some of which are more powerful than any mortal. Actual gods don't have stats, just acts. You have the lesser kami, elemental spirits which are what power the elemental magic the priests use, but they don't have stats other than spell effects. You have other supernaturals like ghosts and animals spirits, demons, undead. You have corrupted mortal races, you have dream-tied sentient rats and semi-hivemind snake people, honored ancestors and more, but there isn't anything mechanically that is explicitly designed as inbetween mortal and god.
Yes, they beat up a god twice and a few semi-divine monsters, but there aren't rules for that, just story.

As I said before, as far as D&D is concerned the distinction is rather artificial for purposes of the game. Yes, you have optional rules that distinguish between god and non-god and you can use the epic rules for the inbetween bit, but really you don't need anything other than the basic rules to do 'really awesome, powerful being that can do godlike stuff'. As long as you are playing a high-level character you are by definition between a god and normal mortals.

[WarKitty]

What it has is basically what D&D has - various supernatural entities, some of which are more powerful than any mortal. Actual gods don't have stats, just acts. You have the lesser kami, elemental spirits which are what power the elemental magic the priests use, but they don't have stats other than spell effects. You have other supernaturals like ghosts and animals spirits, demons, undead. You have corrupted mortal races, you have dream-tied sentient rats and semi-hivemind snake people, honored ancestors and more, but there isn't anything mechanically that is explicitly designed as inbetween mortal and god.
Yes, they beat up a god twice and a few semi-divine monsters, but there aren't rules for that, just story.

As I said before, as far as D&D is concerned the distinction is rather artificial for purposes of the game. Yes, you have optional rules that distinguish between god and non-god and you can use the epic rules for the inbetween bit, but really you don't need anything other than the basic rules to do 'really awesome, powerful being that can do godlike stuff'. As long as you are playing a high-level character you are by definition between a god and normal mortals.

Still, it seems like some extra godlike stuff would be fun. Starting to look like gods, for example, via at-will alternate forms. My basic plan is to combine it with epic-level play so that 21 is the starting point for demi-god, and the characters progress by getting more powerful divine abilities, especially ones specifically related to worshippers.

[BWR]

I suppose you could try the Immortal's Handbook, which apparantly has some quite ridiculous stuff in it, topping even the ELH, if that isn't insane enough for you.

[WarKitty]

I suppose you could try the Immortal's Handbook, which apparantly has some quite ridiculous stuff in it, topping even the ELH, if that isn't insane enough for you.

The problem is more the other way around - I want a world where low-level deities have a different feel from just heros, but not necessarily one that's superbly more powerful than a 20th level character. A hero and a demi-god should be able to face off without the hero having to be a super-optimized wizard.

[Prime32]

You could try class restrictions? E.g. only gods have divine spellcasting abilities - mortal priests are bards or binders or what have you.

[WarKitty]

You could try class restrictions? E.g. only gods have divine spellcasting abilities - mortal priests are bards or binders or what have you.

I don't really want to cut player's abilities off like that. Especially given that part of what ascension to godhood should mean is that you can now grant spells...

I really don't want to mess with anything below level 20 (other than maybe leadership). What I want is essentially a 10 or 15 level epic "divinity" class that players can progress through.

[Coidzor]

There are also the Radiant Idols (Sharn City of Towers) that grant spells to clerics and act as gods/cult leaders

Just stumbled upon this post. Might be worth a peek.

[BWR]

Don't know why I didn't think of this before: Pathfinder's Mythic Adventures. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)
It's bascially how creatures and people can be even more awesome from level 1 and up. In addition to xp, when you do really epic, impressive stuff, your mythic rating increases, granting you a few extra abilities. It takes the special snowflake ideal of adventurer (and monster) and puts it on steroids. Now just replace 'mythic' with 'divine' and you're ready to go.
The system isn't perfect, but it may be what you are looking for.