So what is the Arcane Fusion infinity loop?

[Max Caysey]

Pretty simple question... I have seen this being mentioned before in some threads and have seen something about this method allowing for spamming spells like there were no tomorrow, but I'm unsure of the mechanics involved. Would someone be so kind as to explain it to me?

Thanks

[Silva Stormrage]

Pretty simple question... I have seen this being mentioned before in some threads and have seen something about this method allowing for spamming spells like there were no tomorrow, but I'm unsure of the mechanics involved. Would someone be so kind as to explain it to me?

Thanks

I believe it involves casting arcane fusion and with it casting an arcane sanctumed arcane fusion to get an infinite loop. Arcane Sanctum lowers the spell level by 1 so it would be a 4th level spell that can cast a 4th level spell and a 1st. So you get infinite first level spells. You can do greater arcane fusion for infinite 5th and lower too.

[A_S]

If you don't like Sanctum Spell cheese, you can also just loop Arcane Fusion > Celerity > Arcane Fusion > etc. for infinite 1st level spells, or Greater Arcane Fusion > Celerity > Greater Arcane Fusion > etc. for infinite 7th level spells. Burns a lot of spell slots, though. Throw in Twin Spell for more actions per slot. You have to be immune to Daze, but that's not super hard.

[Crake]

If you don't like Sanctum Spell cheese, you can also just loop Arcane Fusion > Celerity > Arcane Fusion > etc. for infinite 1st level spells, or Greater Arcane Fusion > Celerity > Greater Arcane Fusion > etc. for infinite 7th level spells. Burns a lot of spell slots, though. Throw in Twin Spell for more actions per slot. You have to be immune to Daze, but that's not super hard.

see, that's not so much infinite spells as it is just novaing all your spellslots in one round

[Renen]

And they say Psions break action economy... (well they do, and better... but still :D)

[unseenmage]

Work in an Energy Transformation Field (SC) cast into a Bag of Holding to turn all those other spells into repeated castings of one higher level spell of your choice so long as that spell has no expensive material or xp components.

Additionally you could make it a War Magic spell (see my sig) to get even more castings at one time.

[weckar]

I believe it involves casting arcane fusion and with it casting an arcane sanctumed arcane fusion to get an infinite loop. Arcane Sanctum lowers the spell level by 1 so it would be a 4th level spell that can cast a 4th level spell and a 1st. So you get infinite first level spells. You can do greater arcane fusion for infinite 5th and lower too. Wait, how would this work, exactly? Arcane Fusion is only available to Sorcerers, and can only be applied to spells that have a casting time of one standard action are less. Applying Sanctum to Arcane Fusion would make it a full round spell, would it not? Sure, there are ways around it, but straight up it wouldn't work.

[Karnith]

Wait, how would this work, exactly? Arcane Fusion is only available to Sorcerers, and can only be applied to spells that have a casting time of one standard action are less. Applying Sanctum to Arcane Fusion would make it a full round spell, would it not? Sure, there are ways around it, but straight up it wouldn't work.
Yes, builds trying to go infinite with Arcane Fusion would use Rapid Metamagic, Arcane Spellsurge, or some other method of reducing a metamagic'd spell's casting time to make the spells eligible for use with Arcane Fusion. Which, I should imagine, most builds utilizing Arcane Fusion would get at some point anyway.

[Chronos]

The key to this trick, which I overlooked for the longest time, is that Arcane Fusion doesn't make you use up the slots for the spells you're casting with it. So if you can somehow fit an Arcane Fusion into another one, you can get as many 1st-level spells as you want for the cost of a single 5th-level slot for the first AF in the chain.

[weckar]

Of course, you can't really take any other actions while doing this. Not that you would need them.

[Zombimode]

You have to be immune to Daze, but that's not super hard.

It is not? How do get Daze immunity, then?

[Mnemnosyne]

Favor of the Martyr, 4th level paladin spell will do it. Also, the Mark of the Dauntless feat from Dragonmarked, which has a requirement of any least dragonmark, so two feats for that method.

[Doc_Maynot]

Yes, the loop requires sanctum spell, and Rapid Metamagic or Accelerate Metamagic(Sanctum Spell).

One uses arcane fusion which states, "If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion." to cast Sanctum Arcane Fusion which is now a 4th level spell due to sanctum's, "but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal" line.
The other part can be any 1st or Sanctum 2nd you want. All with only one spell slot (or two is you want to use versatile Spellcaster to cast it as a Sanctum Spell with 3rd level slots.)

[Eldariel]

You don't need to be immune to Daze anyways; you only get dazed for following rounds. Quick Recovery [LoM] works too. There are also Lucubration+Twin/Sanctum/etc.-based loops (you can get them as a Sorc through e.g. Wyrm Wizard or Recaster; Wizard can gain Arcane Fusion in a similar fashion so it works for either) to enable recovering spellslots so gaining infinite actions through Arcane Fusion enables you to effectively cast any number of spells in the space of one immediate action (you can Fusion multiple Celerities even if you don't want to use Twinned Celerities to get extra actions out of the loop too). In short, (Greater) Celerity + Arcane Fusion or Arcane Fusion involving another Arcane Fusion or Twin Spell + Celerity/Arcane Fusion/action granters tends to lead to loops.

[Zombimode]

Favor of the Martyr, 4th level paladin spell will do it. Also, the Mark of the Dauntless feat from Dragonmarked, which has a requirement of any least dragonmark, so two feats for that method.

So a 1 min/level duration paladin-specific (by extension available for archivists) spell or two pretty campaign specific feats. Well, we probably have different notion of "not super hard" :smallwink:

[Doc_Maynot]

Or by extension able to any lawful good divine caster that can cast protection from evil. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)

[Zombimode]

Or by extension able to any lawful good divine caster that can cast protection from evil. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm)

So it is instantly available for characters planing to use arcane fusion :smallamused:

Also, prestige base classes are a variant, pretty much on the same level as unarmed swordsages or wound and vitality points.

[Doc_Maynot]

Chameleon 7s on the other hand, could still do so.

[A_S]

You don't need to be immune to Daze anyways; you only get dazed for following rounds.
Somewhat tangential, since as pointed out earlier the Celerity version isn't really "infinite," it's just not action-limited, but this isn't right. The daze from Celerity starts as soon as you complete the action you get from the spell. You could argue that resolving the entire Arcane Fusion chain is a single action, but that seems like shaky ground to me...

[Doc_Maynot]

That isn't the asked for infinite loop however, I posted the one that does not require it further up.

[Vogonjeltz]

Wait, how would this work, exactly? Arcane Fusion is only available to Sorcerers, and can only be applied to spells that have a casting time of one standard action are less. Applying Sanctum to Arcane Fusion would make it a full round spell, would it not? Sure, there are ways around it, but straight up it wouldn't work.

Well, the claim is that Effective Spell Level =
4th-level or lower sorcerer spell that you know and any 7th-level or lower sorcerer spell that you know.

I find that claim dubious.
1)
All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

The spell's level explicitly doesn't change (uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level), just how effects based on level are calculated. This includes DC, duration, targets, etc. But it doesn't intrinsically change the spell to be a 3rd level spell now, or it would reduce the actual spell slot requirement. This just doesn't qualify a spell for the Fusion line of spells.

A word on Meta-magic:

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.

SRD20 isn't perfect, but that seems like a clear cut explanation that Sanctum Spell never changes the actual level of the spell unless it changes the spell slot. All Sanctum spell is doing is changing the power of the spell.

2) The wording of Greater Arcane Fusion indicates the spells must be 4th-level/7th-level or lower sorcerer spells. That sounds like it has to actually be on the sorcerer spell list, unmodified, allowing no metamagic application at all.


Anyway, that's the claim, and that's my counter-argument. If you're the DM you get to decide which one you run your game by.

[Doc_Maynot]

The wording on Sanctum spell is

"A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."

Whereas Arcane Fusion says

"If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion."

Meaning that it CAN be modified and that there is no dubious claim.

[bekeleven]

Yeah, you've got that backwards. Sanctum Spell doesn't change every single level-based anything except for spell slot (so the level stays the same), it changes every single level-based anything except for spell slot (including effective level). Remember that spell slots of different levels than the spell level is pretty much how metamagic works.

[Vogonjeltz]

The wording on Sanctum spell is

Whereas Arcane Fusion says

Meaning that it CAN be modified and that there is no dubious claim.

Arcane fusion uses the metamagic altered spell slot, which for sanctum spell is the normal spell level insofar as the game is concerned, and that slot is the normal spell level. The only thing that is adjusted are any effects dependent on level. Therefore sanctum spell has no bearing on the eligibility of a spell for arcane fusion.

[Max Caysey]

A couble of questions...

Fistly as far as I can see, sanctum spell does not change the spell level. MEaning then when casting a sanctum level 5 spell, it still uses a level 5 spell slot. So I fail to see how any of this help casting furhter Arcane Fusions.

Secondly doenst Arcane fusion use/spend the spell slots of the spells you put into arcane fusion? As far as I can tell, at some point you run out of spells... Right?

What am I missing!?

[bekeleven]

Fistly as far as I can see, sanctum spell does not change the spell level. MEaning then when casting a sanctum level 5 spell, it still uses a level 5 spell slot. So I fail to see how any of this help casting furhter Arcane Fusions.

Yeah, you've got that backwards. Sanctum Spell doesn't change every single level-based anything except for spell slot (so the level stays the same), it changes every single level-based anything except for spell slot (including effective level). Remember that spell slots of different levels than the spell level is pretty much how metamagic works.


Secondly doenst Arcane fusion use/spend the spell slots of the spells you put into arcane fusion? As far as I can tell, at some point you run out of spells... Right?Reread the spell.

[Max Caysey]

Reread the spell.

Ok, so I see that I had missed the fact that Arcane Fusion does not use spells when cast through Arcane Fusion... I still dont see how sanctum spell can help getting Arcane Fusion inside Arcane Fusion... When Casting a Sanctum Arcane Fusion, it effectively a level 4 (for DC, damage, duration... ect.) but still uses a level 5 slot. So again please I need some elaboration.!

[Necroticplague]

Ok, so I see that I had missed the fact that Arcane Fusion does not use spells when cast through Arcane Fusion... I still dont see how sanctum spell can help getting Arcane Fusion inside Arcane Fusion... When Casting a Sanctum Arcane Fusion, it effectively a level 4 (for DC, damage, duration... ect.) but still uses a level 5 slot. So again please I need some elaboration.!

It does use up a level 5 slot, but it is a level 4 spell. What slot it uses is unrelated to its spell level once metamagic comes into play (i.e, a silent fireball is still only a third-level spell). This is just a rare case of using up a slot higher than its level (though this can occur other ways, most of which are abusing metamagic reducers that don't say "you can't go below zero" and applying it to +0 metamagic).

[Max Caysey]

It does use up a level 5 slot, but it is a level 4 spell. What slot it uses is unrelated to its spell level once metamagic comes into play (i.e, a silent fireball is still only a third-level spell). This is just a rare case of using up a slot higher than its level (though this can occur other ways, most of which are abusing metamagic reducers that don't say "you can't go below zero" and applying it to +0 metamagic).

Ok.... thats not at all as I read it, but if you guys say so, I guess that how it works. But let me ask, if a wizard memorizes a Sanctum level 5 spell (outside of his sanctum) whats spell level does it take up?

[Elderand]

Ok.... thats not at all as I read it, but if you guys say so, I guess that how it works. But let me ask, if a wizard memorizes a Sanctum level 5 spell (outside of his sanctum) whats spell level does it take up?

It's a level 4 spell cast using a level 5 spell slot. The key is that spell slot =/= from spell level. Nothing stops you from preparing low level spells in higher level slots if you so wish. The logic is the same here.

[Gemini476]

It is not? How do get Daze immunity, then?

From the list of necessary magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items):

Daze negation


Why you need it: Daze is like stun, only you don't lose your dexterity bonus and everything you are holding - and it is much more difficult to become immune to. The latter part is what leads optimizers everywhere to look at this condition as one of "the" conditions to inflict on their enemies (probably right after the condition of "death" in its popularity).


Cheap-ish:

Third Eye Clarity (MIC). 3000GP, face slot. Daze is another of the conditions it can negate. See the Stun negation list.
Minor Schema of Favor of the Martyr (MoE, SpC). 11200GP, held. The Favor of the Martyr Paladin spell grants immunity to the condition, a Minor Schema allows you to get it 1/day if you can activate it.


Deluxe:

Custom item of continuous Favor of the Martyr (SpC). 128000GP, shoulders slot? Following the magic item creation guidelines, this would cost 4 (Spell level) x 8 (Caster level) * 2000 (Continuous item multiplier) * 2 (1 minute/level multiplier) = 128000 GP. "HOLY CRAP, that's expensive!", you're thinking? Well, take a look at the immunities you're getting.


Other:

Drakehelms (EbEx) and the Ring of Theurgy (CArc) offer access to the spells of other classes with few limitations. It may be possible for you to nab Favor of the Martyr from the Paladin list this way. Also, see this list.



So yeah. It's not exactly easy to get, but it's achievable.

[Necroticplague]

Ok.... thats not at all as I read it, but if you guys say so, I guess that how it works. But let me ask, if a wizard memorizes a Sanctum level 5 spell (outside of his sanctum) whats spell level does it take up?

It's a level 4 spell that would use up a level 5 slot. Just like how an empowered fireball is a third-level spell that uses up a fifth level slot. Unless you think any metamagic that uses a higher slot increases a spell's level, in which case, I ask you: why does heighten spell exist, since under your interpretation, any +1 metamagic does the same thing?

[Vogonjeltz]

It does use up a level 5 slot, but it is a level 4 spell. What slot it uses is unrelated to its spell level once metamagic comes into play (i.e, a silent fireball is still only a third-level spell). This is just a rare case of using up a slot higher than its level (though this can occur other ways, most of which are abusing metamagic reducers that don't say "you can't go below zero" and applying it to +0 metamagic).

Is there a metamagic reducer that doesn't have the caveat that it can't reduce a metamagic increase below +1?

The game actively disconnects actual spell level from effective spell level in regards to metamagic. Sanctum spell only changes how effective the spell is, it doesn't change spell level. Heighten spell changes both effective spell level and actual spell level. Other metamagic change actual spell level, but not effective spell level.

Effective spell level determines the DC, rounds/level, etc...
Actual Spell Level determines what level of spell slot is required, and is literally what level the spell is.


It's a level 4 spell cast using a level 5 spell slot. The key is that spell slot =/= from spell level. Nothing stops you from preparing low level spells in higher level slots if you so wish. The logic is the same here.

No, it's a level 5 spell that can have the power of either a level 4 or level 6 spell, but in no case does it become either of those things.

[eggynack]

Effective spell level determines the DC, rounds/level, etc...
Actual Spell Level determines what level of spell slot is required, and is literally what level the spell is.

Do you have any actual source on what effective spell level determines, relative to "actual spell level"? Because, as is, sanctum spell says that all effects dependent on spell level use the adjusted level, and the fact that you can only stick spells of certain levels into a fusion seems to indicate that that restriction is an effect dependent on spell level. So, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about effective spell level, or actual spell level. They do the same thing.

[otakumick]

It is possible to cast a heightened spell from a slot lower than the point that it is heightened to, therefore it is possible to cast a spell from a slot lower than its spell level. This again proves that spell level does not equal slot level. (examples include but are not limited to Earth Spell Heighten Spell interactions, and the interactions between Heighten and Divine Metamagic.)

[Karnith]

Is there a metamagic reducer that doesn't have the caveat that it can't reduce a metamagic increase below +1?The feat Arcane Thesis (PHBII pp. 74-75, and check the errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)) doesn't have a +1 minimum. It's only restriction is that it can't cause the resultant spell slot level to be below the spell's actual level. Unsurprisingly, it is absurdly strong.

Effective spell level determines the DC, rounds/level, etc...Spell level never, to my knowledge, affects the duration of a spell. Did I misunderstand what you're saying?

[Vogonjeltz]

Do you have any actual source on what effective spell level determines, relative to "actual spell level"? Because, as is, sanctum spell says that all effects dependent on spell level use the adjusted level, and the fact that you can only stick spells of certain levels into a fusion seems to indicate that that restriction is an effect dependent on spell level. So, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about effective spell level, or actual spell level. They do the same thing.

Heighten spell makes a distinction between the two. Spell level is the slot being used, effective spell level is what determines save DCs and spell penetration.


The feat Arcane Thesis (PHBII pp. 74-75, and check the errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)) has no such restriction. Which is why it pops up constantly in metamagic builds; it's absurdly strong.
Spell level never, to my knowledge, affects the duration of a spell. Did I misunderstand what you're saying?

True, but arcane thesis says you can never reduce the spell level below its original level.

Yeah sorry I mishmashes CL and ESL. My bad on that last bit.

[eggynack]

Heighten spell makes a distinction between the two. Spell level is the slot being used, effective spell level is what determines save DCs and spell penetration.

No, it does not make a distinction. Heighten spell modifies all effects dependent on spell level, such as save DC's and spell penetration. Not all inclusive at all, and that definition of "effective spell level" does nothing to invalidate sanctum spell's use for this purpose.

[Vogonjeltz]

No, it does not make a distinction. Heighten spell modifies all effects dependent on spell level, such as save DC's and spell penetration. Not all inclusive at all, and that definition of "effective spell level" does nothing to invalidate sanctum spell's use for this purpose.

As a matter of fact, it does.

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).

And it then differentiates between itself and other metamagic.


Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Effective just refers to the DC, spell penetration and so forth.

Unlike sanctum, which only alters Effective Spell Level, heighten also modified actual spell level.

[bekeleven]

Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell ... In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.

So, that's where we start. Let's see how it can change. I'll use heighten spell, because we all agree that Heighten Spell changes the spell's level for purposes of things like Arcane Fusion (which refer to "fourth-level spells"):


Heighten spell changes both effective spell level and actual spell level.


A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Huh. So basically, Heighten Spell - as opposed to the general metamagic rules - changed the "effective" level of the spell it modifies. In fact, it uses the terms interchangeably. You could claim that the first and second sentences are saying two different things, but that wouldn't make sense: Heighten spell explicitly says that it's distinguished from other metamagic feats because it changes effective level.

So basically, heighten makes no distinction between "effective" spell level and actual spell level. Although it's still clear that both are distinct from spell slot.

Now let's read Sanctum Spell:


A sanctum spell has an effective spell level one level higher than normal if cast in your sanctum (see Special, below)--but if not cast in the sanctum, it has an effective spell level one level lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (such as save DCs or the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the adjusted level.

That's funny. Not only does sanctum use similar wording, it literally copies and pastes a section of Heighten Spell description. Seems to me like it works the same way with regards to modifying spell levels for things that depend on that.

Wait, what's that? We can make it even easier?


If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level

Oh. Turns out that, even though sanctum spell does change the spell's level just like heighten, it doesn't even need to, because Arcane Fusion keys off of the spell level adjusted by metamagic feats anyway. And I hope we can all agree that Sanctum Spell adjusts the spell level, given that all effects dependent on spell level have been changed?

Number of times I typed "Arcane Fution" while writing this: 5

[Necroticplague]

As a matter of fact, it does.


And it then differentiates between itself and other metamagic.



Effective just refers to the DC, spell penetration and so forth.

Unlike sanctum, which only alters Effective Spell Level, heighten also modified actual spell level.

What makes you think "and so forth" doesn't include counting for what can fit into an arcane fusion? It secifically mentions peice if a glove of invulnerability as an example for sanctum spell. Lesser globe of invulnerability similarly only references spell level, and not effective spell level. Actually, outside of the metamagics that reference modifying spell levels, the term "effective spell level" isn't used anywhere else. So either an entire group of metamagics are entirely worthless, or this one clever trick works.

[Max Caysey]

Is it possible, that someone could set up a rotations/ casting list, so I could actually see what spells to cast when and what meta-magic feats would be applied to what spells? Im sorry i I seem stupid, but this "loop" seems not all clear to me.

Thanks!

[Karnith]

Is it possible, that someone could set up a rotations/ casting list, so I could actually see what spells to cast when and what meta-magic feats would be applied to what spells? Im sorry i I seem stupid, but this "loop" seems not all clear to me.

Thanks!
The process (under the assumption that the trick works) is essentially as follows:
1. A sorcerer possesses some means of making spells affected by metamagic feats not take longer to cast (say, Rapid Metamagic, from Complete Mage p. 46), has the feat Sanctum Spell, and knows the spell Arcane Fusion.
2. She casts Arcane Fusion.
3. She picks the spells she wants to cast via Arcane Fusion. One must be 4th level, and the other must be 1st level. Her 4th-level spell will be a Sanctum-Spell-modified Arcane Fusion (since it is cast outside of the caster's sanctum, it is effectively a 4th-level spell and thus eligible for being cast via Arcane Fusion) and her 1st-level spell will be something else. Let's go with Magic Missile. That's a fun spell.
4. The spells she chose resolve in an order of the her choosing. Let's says she wants the Magic Missile first and the Sanctum'd Arcane Fusion second.
5. The Magic Missile is cast, hits something, and deals some damage.
6. The Sanctum'd Arcane Fusion is cast.
7. Steps 3 through 6 repeat for as long as the caster wants. Probably until whatever she wanted dead is dead.

[Vogonjeltz]

So, that's where we start. Let's see how it can change. I'll use heighten spell, because we all agree that Heighten Spell changes the spell's level for purposes of things like Arcane Fusion (which refer to "fourth-level spells"):

Huh. So basically, Heighten Spell - as opposed to the general metamagic rules - changed the "effective" level of the spell it modifies. In fact, it uses the terms interchangeably. You could claim that the first and second sentences are saying two different things, but that wouldn't make sense: Heighten spell explicitly says that it's distinguished from other metamagic feats because it changes effective level.

So basically, heighten makes no distinction between "effective" spell level and actual spell level. Although it's still clear that both are distinct from spell slot.

Now let's read Sanctum Spell:

That's funny. Not only does sanctum use similar wording, it literally copies and pastes a section of Heighten Spell description. Seems to me like it works the same way with regards to modifying spell levels for things that depend on that.

Wait, what's that? We can make it even easier?

Oh. Turns out that, even though sanctum spell does change the spell's level just like heighten, it doesn't even need to, because Arcane Fusion keys off of the spell level adjusted by metamagic feats anyway. And I hope we can all agree that Sanctum Spell adjusts the spell level, given that all effects dependent on spell level have been changed?

Number of times I typed "Arcane Fution" while writing this: 5

Sanctum spell doesn't include the phrase: "has a higher spell level than normal". It only speaks to effective spell level.


What makes you think "and so forth" doesn't include counting for what can fit into an arcane fusion? It secifically mentions peice if a glove of invulnerability as an example for sanctum spell. Lesser globe of invulnerability similarly only references spell level, and not effective spell level. Actually, outside of the metamagics that reference modifying spell levels, the term "effective spell level" isn't used anywhere else. So either an entire group of metamagics are entirely worthless, or this one clever trick works.

Sanctum Spell contains no mention of globe of invulnerability. That is heighten spell.

The 3.5 FAQ also states that:


Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than normal with the Extra Spell feat?
No, you would need to use your class's spellcasting progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or similar effects.

Which goes to show that and so forth has limits when it comes to treating the spells as effectively higher or lower.

The Official FAQ also states that Arcane Thesis only reduces the total metamagic increase by 1 (not 1 per metamagic) and never reduces the level of the spell.

A further word on what is and isn't a spell:


Just because you're capable of applying, say, the Empower Spell feat to a fireball spell, that doesn't make "empowered fireball" a spell. The spell is still "fireball" and thus Innate Spell applies only to the normal version of that spell.

This parallels the claim being made about a sanctum spell arcane fusion being a lower level spell. It isn't because there's no such spell as "sanctum arcane fusion".

[eggynack]

Sanctum spell doesn't include the phrase: "has a higher spell level than normal". It only speaks to effective spell level.
And effective spell level applies to this, and everything. Basically, our spell has a spell level of five, but every time the game asks any question of the spell, like whether it bypasses a globe of invulnerability, or whether you can put it in an arcane fusion, the spell says that it's a fourth level spell. As for the other things you've said, they all rely on the FAQ, and the FAQ isn't RAW. Seriously, I can point you to an exact place in the errata, which is essentially the highest authority on how the rules work, that states that each metamagic has a -1 applied to its cost. If you're going to find a source here, it's going to have to be from some actual source of RAW, like one of the books, or even a web enhancement.

[Max Caysey]

The process (under the assumption that the trick works) is essentially as follows:
1. A sorcerer possesses some means of making spells affected by metamagic feats not take longer to cast (say, Rapid Metamagic, from Complete Mage p. 46), has the feat Sanctum Spell, and knows the spell Arcane Fusion.
2. She casts Arcane Fusion.
3. She picks the spells she wants to cast via Arcane Fusion. One must be 4th level, and the other must be 1st level. Her 4th-level spell will be a Sanctum-Spell-modified Arcane Fusion (since it is cast outside of the caster's sanctum, it is effectively a 4th-level spell and thus eligible for being cast via Arcane Fusion) and her 1st-level spell will be something else. Let's go with Magic Missile. That's a fun spell.
4. The spells she chose resolve in an order of the her choosing. Let's says she wants the Magic Missile first and the Sanctum'd Arcane Fusion second.
5. The Magic Missile is cast, hits something, and deals some damage.
6. The Sanctum'd Arcane Fusion is cast.
7. Steps 3 through 6 repeat for as long as the caster wants. Probably until whatever she wanted dead is dead.

Thanks... Can it be done by a wizard and if yes... how?

[Karnith]

Thanks... Can it be done by a wizard and if yes... how?
Arcane Fusion requires you to pick Sorcerer spells that you know, so it depends on how "Sorcerer spell" is defined (which is great, because as far as I know the game never defines <class> spells). If you can get the spells your Wizard knows to qualify, you'd learn Arcane Fusion through Wyrm Wizard or something and drop the need for Rapid Metamagic.

The cop-out answer is to build a Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus/Wyrm Wizard, who bypasses the issue by starting the chain as with a Wizard-side Arcane Fusion but who would necessarily also be able to start the loop on the Sorcerer side.

[bekeleven]

Sanctum spell doesn't include the phrase: "has a higher spell level than normal". It only speaks to effective spell level.
Seriously? I just said this.

Heighten spell reads: "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies."

These two sentences say the same thing. Notice the "unlike other metamagic feats" business? That means that OTHER METAMAGIC FEATS DON'T INCREASE EFFECTIVE LEVEL. That is why heighten spell is unique. That is its thing. That is what heighten spell does. It increases level. Which is also effective level. It's right there. It's making two equivalent statements. They are saying the same thing. Spell level is effective spell level for all purposes. Arcane fusion is a purpose.

Sactum spell INCREASES EFFECTIVE LEVEL. It even states that the level is, once again, changed for "all effects dependent on spell level." Arcane fusion is an effect. And it depends on spell level. That makes it an effect dependent on spell level.



This parallels the claim being made about a sanctum spell arcane fusion being a lower level spell. It isn't because there's no such spell as "sanctum arcane fusion".

I had a really obnoxious reply to this all ready, it included me quoting arcane fusion's sentences on metamagic, comparing them to you saying you can't apply metamagic to change spell level, and concluding that you would allow a 4th level spell with all metamagics on it into arcane fusion.

However, although your arguments are wrong - you CAN apply metamagic, and arcane fusion DOES key off of changed level - there could be something here.

IF sanctum spell changes real spell level (which I, and most people think it does, while you don't)

Then, we enter a rules black hole. The rules governing our situation here is the sentence in arcane fusion:

If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.
We can effectively treat sanctum arcane fusion as a 4th level spell in a 5th level slot. Let me back up and discuss Arcane Fusion's wording.

Arcane Fusion is saying here, extremely obvious RAI, that metamagics count, IE no maximixed empowered ocular split ray energy admixture fell drain fireball. However, RAW, it's stating that it's keying off of SPELL LEVEL. This means:

RAW, you can freely apply any metamagic except for Heighten (and sanctum or earth) to the spell, because most spells don't modify "spell level" and/or "effective spell level".

RAI, it may key off of spell slot, meaning that sanctum arcane fusion is a no-go.

You can make further arguments, however: For instance, a Sanctum Arcane Fusion is a (normally) 5th level spell in a 5th level slot that when outside the sanctum is treated in all ways as a 4th level spell. So its spell level is clearly being adjusted to 4. And even if you're keying off of spell level, you can argue that you have a [4th level spell you know] that [has an adjusted spell level of 4] and thus passes both clauses of Arcane Fusion's sanity checking.

So in other words: If you reversed your opinions on a few things and read either loose (strict RAI) or certain wonky RAW rulings, I agree with you. And I agree that Sanctum Arcane Fusion was never meant to be in an arcane fusion, I just think so for the exact opposite reason you do.

Did any of that make sense?

[Max Caysey]

I thinks it a dificult matter...

When looking from a wizards point... Sanctum spell does not change what level you memorize your spell in, as many other meta-magic does. That to me says alot. Heighten spell does.

So I would be inclined to say, that I dont think is crystal clear how this works. That was the reason for me asking this question in the first place because I could not see how this would work. I still think that its a case of view. I for one would love to get this to work as a spellcaster, but I dont se many DM "understanding" the rules in favor for unlimited spells... albeit low leves. And I would not call that DM fiat, but simply RAI. I know that usually most games are a mix of RAW nad RAI (I know mine are) so I kind of see this a little like some of the othe infinity loops or Pun Pun builds out there. Where it might be possible if keeping to a strict RAW rules reading, but just like law its interpretations.

For me there are one thing that seems to allow this abuse. If Arcane Fusion says that it calculates spell level according to spell-level WITH metamagic feat included this might just be the one thing needed... But I still think its not 100% clear. One thing I am certain of though is, that I dont think its supposed to work and that it is a blatant hole in the rules/abuse. Non-the less I can see some coolnes in a high level wizard memorizing all his spell as sanctum spells, activating greater celerity then wish( greater arcane fusion) and going to town... never stopping until everyone is down. So before any enemy gets his turn, the wizard has destroyed them all... :smallbiggrin:

[Arc_knight25]

This question comes up about once every few months. It normally boils down to what your DM is willing to allow. If they are willing to allow low level spells be infinitely cast, power to you. If not, try something else, or look into ways to maximize Arcane Fusion, i've seen a few out there.

And I must say bekeleven, you have done a most excellent job explaining this out. Out of most of the threads I have read on Arcane Fusion you really spelt out every aspect to keep people on track with following how this "loop" works.

[Max Caysey]

And I must say bekeleven, you have done a most excellent job explaining this out. Out of most of the threads I have read on Arcane Fusion you really spelt out every aspect to keep people on track with following how this "loop" works.

I very much agree to this.