Implications of a PHB-Only E8 Setting For Balance and Verisimilitude?

[Amaril]

So I'm sure this exact question, and ones like it, are asked around here on a regular basis, so I hope you won't mind indulging me here. I'm looking to discuss the merits of an E8 setting for 3.5, primarily in two regards: first, how many of the problems of verisimilitude common to 3.5 settings would be helped by eliminating really high-level magic; and second, how this limitation would affect game balance of warriors vs. casters. One important stipulation--I'm talking about an E8 world, here, not necessarily an E8 game. By the power scale I have in my head, PCs in this world could theoretically reach as high as 10th level, but they'd almost certainly be the only people in the world with that kind of power. Whether they could go even higher is something I haven't really thought about.

So, how might something like this look?

[Coidzor]

I'm not concretely sure myself just yet, but I've been thinking about a world off and on for the past couple of years where ordinary people are limited to either 4 or 6 class levels, an elite class of creatures goes by E8 rules with a smaller segment of them being E10 and an even smaller segment E12, with creatures that can naturally hit level 13+ being either once-in-a-lifetime sorts or else the children of Powers or other suitably powerful entities. Sufficiently powerful and rare-ish creatures such as Dragons sidestep these caps for the most part, and the closer to humanoids a creature is, the more likely it is to have to deal with the caps in some form or another.

So amongst the common people there's a distribution of level 1-2 people who are establishing themselves in the world, level 3-4 people who have established themselves, and then level 5-6 are those who've mastered their area of specialization or just lived for a really long time. Essentially all members of races such as Dwarves or Elves that are sufficiently long-lived hit their E6 cap if they have it, provided they actually live that long, though anyone whose life is full of adversity and excitement and lives in Interesting Times will tend to level up faster and hit their cap, of course.

The effective (or actual) gentry/aristocracy/nobility is generally a mixture of those whose natural ability has raised them there, the occasional person who manages to cheat and bypass/break their cap for themselves, and the normal/elite descendants of those who rose to that position. Tends to run in bloodlines, and if both parents have broken or been born without the E6 cap, then any progeny are at least E8.

So most small-time/local rulers tend to be E8ish and those that control regions or countries or empires are of the E10 or E12 sort and tend to be halfway through their level progression by the time they're in the equivalent of their 30s and at or near their cap around midway through middleage. Usually hit it by the time they're officially Old. And if someone's seriously shaking up the world, they're generally either an E12 who has progressed faster than usual or they're uncapped.

You'll find those with higher level caps outside of the traditional power structures of where they dwell, but if they are *in* a power structure, they'll tend to gravitate towards the top unless there's someone higher level around. I've also kicked around whether they can take Leadership(or some variant/fix) for free after they hit sufficient level or another bonus feat of their choice to partially reflect that in mechanics.

Occasionally certain magic rituals, maguffins, artifacts, or just straight-up consuming the essence of a demigod or sufficiently powerful creature such as a Dragon can allow one to rise further than one's natural potential. And I've also considered tying this into my ideas about a leadership variant where a group of NPC-class types can advance as long as they're tied to a more powerful PC-class type.

My gut instinct is to go with something similar to what I'd sussed out (funny, since it's me and all, right? :P) where level 1-2 are newbies/young/inept, level 3-4 is where most people hang out, 5-6 is more like elite warriors/most sorts of masters, and then 7-8 are the superstars with 9-10 being more along the lines of legendary figures.

[Coidzor]

There are some more problematic 4th level spells that E6 goes out of its way to try to limit player access to, and having an E8 world suggests that such spells are available at some price potentially, and there'll be an expansion of the magical items available without having to invoke Gods/Midgard Dwarves/Outsiders.

Between level 9 and level 11 is where casters are traditionally thought of as leaving mundanes well behind though, with the process starting around level 5-7(or earlier, depending upon various factors). So if non-plot NPCs are limited to level 8 and plot-NPCs & PCs are limited to level 10, that'll greatly cut out the really high magic shenanigans, but elements of the Tippyverse can bloom even on the E6 battlefield, and with 4 & 5th level spells, even more of that becomes available. Still, with that kind of limitation, a properly aged dragon who experiences no such limitation to 5th level spells and below is going to be unstoppable without another dragon or some manner of outsider(whether the type or an adventurer from outside the world, assuming some element of Planescape/the existence of the Plane of Shadow) opposing it.

You may need to refine the question as to what exactly you're asking though, as I'm mostly making informed guesses as to what you want.

[Amaril]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the kind of stuff I was wondering about. What kind of magical shenanigans are you talking about specifically? As far as I know, the two things that can break verisimilitude the most in a medieval world are resurrection and high-powered teleportation, both of which should be eliminated by E8 limitations. Anyway, I'm okay with some ridiculousness being possible with high-level magic, but I want it to be limited to the very best spellcasters in the world, rather than being commonly available.

[squiggit]

I'm pretty sure that's more or less the standard for most settings that aren't tippyverse. Even Forgotten Realms, known for being relatively high magic, doesn't provide for the expectation of easy access to resurrection or teleportation. It doesn't even expect access to Flight or Create Food/Water in any significant fashion. Even planescape or spelljammer don't jab a ton of high magic luxuries outside those there out of necessity.

[Calimehter]

As far as I know, the two things that can break verisimilitude the most in a medieval world are resurrection and high-powered teleportation, both of which should be eliminated by E8 limitations. Anyway, I'm okay with some ridiculousness being possible with high-level magic, but I want it to be limited to the very best spellcasters in the world, rather than being commonly available.

Well, going by strictly RAW characters who are restricted to 8 class levels can still access high level magic. There are various ways to get access to higher levels spells through high-op tricks (I'll let others explain them if your curious, I've only skimmed it), and even without class-based casting abilities you can still get high level spells and SLAs and the like through straightforward summons and magic items.

So the real question that determines what your world looks like isn't "what class levels are available?" but instead "where and how are you cutting off high level spells?". The answer to the former does not always determine the answer to the latter, and you can do E6 (or E8) both ways.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the kind of stuff I was wondering about. What kind of magical shenanigans are you talking about specifically? As far as I know, the two things that can break verisimilitude the most in a medieval world are resurrection and high-powered teleportation, both of which should be eliminated by E8 limitations. Anyway, I'm okay with some ridiculousness being possible with high-level magic, but I want it to be limited to the very best spellcasters in the world, rather than being commonly available.

Mass Production can also throw things for a loop as well as resetting magical traps that automate various labor-intensive practices. Then again, just getting a golem or undead to act as Mr. Pump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golems_%28Discworld%29#Pump_19_.28Mr._Pump.29) can mess with a setting if it hasn't already taken such practices and/or their possibility into account.

I think the LE Mendicant scheme where one sets up a free hospital using those masochistic nipple clamps(probably altered to be another less objectionable but similar item), distilled joy, and resetting traps of Cure X/Remove Disease/X becomes more easily available for a renewable source of crafting XP, more if one decides that the best use for prisoners is to use them as crafting XP batteries. But that might just be possible in E6 too, come to think of it.

Fabricate's a 5th level spell. Permanency is 5th level and Wall of Fire is 4th level. With Versatile Spellcaster or other shenanigans, Wall of Iron, a 6th level spell, may be obtained, and that gives you the basis for everything except for the flux and carbon to make steel & make anything out of steel. But Stone Metamorphosis is a 4th level spell for some or a 6th level spell for others and may be grabbed & Wall of Stone is 5th level, so there's your flux, at least, IIRC Limestone or a flux stone is an option either as the default wall of stone or an option from Stone Metamorphosis. A source of carbon should be available but I forget what exactly it is offhand.

[3drinks]

I would urge you that, if you're set on E8, go E9 instead - else what you've done is rendered an entire class (Sorcerer) unusable as they have access to a whole level of magick less than a Wizard (Sorcs have lv4 spells by lv8, Wiz have lv5 spells by the same point).

But honestly, I feel that E6 is a great balancing point. Not too strong while strong enough, yet still having some tricks so as to not feel weak. And subsequently, the Ftrs and Brbs won't feel as much of an inadequacy-complex at this point either.

[Amaril]

Well, going by strictly RAW characters who are restricted to 8 class levels can still access high level magic. There are various ways to get access to higher levels spells through high-op tricks (I'll let others explain them if your curious, I've only skimmed it), and even without class-based casting abilities you can still get high level spells and SLAs and the like through straightforward summons and magic items.

So the real question that determines what your world looks like isn't "what class levels are available?" but instead "where and how are you cutting off high level spells?". The answer to the former does not always determine the answer to the latter, and you can do E6 (or E8) both ways.

I'm designing this setting as PHB only, since working with more than that is more headache than I want to deal with. That should negate most of the cheese that allows spells higher than 4th level for 8th-level characters, no? The summoning/magic items issue is something I haven't really looked at, though, so some explanation of how that might affect things would be really helpful. I'd initially planned on banning the summon monster line for all classes, because I wanted summoning in this world to be a more difficult and time-consuming process better handled by planar binding and planar ally, but then I looked and saw that those spell sets don't come in until 5th level, so now I'm not sure what I want to do with summons.

Anyway, like I said, it's not that I don't want things like resurrection and teleportation to be impossible, just really, extremely rare--the kind of thing only achievable by the most powerful spellcasters in the entire world, if not all of history.

[WhamBamSam]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the kind of stuff I was wondering about. What kind of magical shenanigans are you talking about specifically? As far as I know, the two things that can break verisimilitude the most in a medieval world are resurrection and high-powered teleportation, both of which should be eliminated by E8 limitations. Anyway, I'm okay with some ridiculousness being possible with high-level magic, but I want it to be limited to the very best spellcasters in the world, rather than being commonly available.Lesser Planar Binding is 3rd level on the Demonologist Spell list, so a Wizard 5/Demonologist 3 or Rogue 5/Chameleon 3 gets access to it with essentially no chicanery. Regular Planar Binding is 4th level on the same spell list and can be accessed by Wizard or Wu Jen 6/Wyrm Wizard 2. Lesser Planar Ally is 4th level on the Cleric List, which is similarly problematic. Psychic Reformation isn't as obviously game breaking, but might cause problems you aren't expecting.

I remember a thread from a while back where people came up with a few methods of creating reliable long range teleport traps for an E6 Tippyverse (generally by gaining access to something with a Teleport SLA, like a Unicorn or Demon, and having it provide the spell).

EDIT: PHB only prevents these shenanigans, but it also skews balance even harder than normal in favor of casters, even in E6 or E8.

[Coidzor]

I would urge you that, if you're set on E8, go E9 instead - else what you've done is rendered an entire class (Sorcerer) unusable as they have access to a whole level of magick less than a Wizard (Sorcs have lv4 spells by lv8, Wiz have lv5 spells by the same point).

Other way around. Sorcerers get 4th level spells at level 8, Wizards gets 4th level spells at level 7. So if you bumped it up to level 9, Wizards would have 5th level spells & Sorcerers would only have 4th level spells.

[3drinks]

Other way around. Sorcerers get 4th level spells at level 8, Wizards gets 4th level spells at level 7. So if you bumped it up to level 9, Wizards would have 5th level spells & Sorcerers would only have 4th level spells.

Oh crap. I reversed a couple of numbers. E8 is the first time Sorcs get lv4 spells, and the second time Wiz get them. Still, I'd argue it's at lv 4 spells as the point where things start to go off in a downward spiral.

[Calimehter]

I'm designing this setting as PHB only, since working with more than that is more headache than I want to deal with. That should negate most of the cheese that allows spells higher than 4th level for 8th-level characters, no? The summoning/magic items issue is something I haven't really looked at, though, so some explanation of how that might affect things would be really helpful. I'd initially planned on banning the summon monster line for all classes, because I wanted summoning in this world to be a more difficult and time-consuming process better handled by planar binding and planar ally, but then I looked and saw that those spell sets don't come in until 5th level, so now I'm not sure what I want to do with summons.

Anyway, like I said, it's not that I don't want things like resurrection and teleportation to be impossible, just really, extremely rare--the kind of thing only achievable by the most powerful spellcasters in the entire world, if not all of history.

Lesser Planar Ally is available as a Level 4 cleric spell. I haven't looked over the summon lists lately, but it wouldn't surprise me if you can get some good SLA access via 6 HD outsiders. More importantly, do any monsters with higher casting levels or high level SLAs exist anywhere in the campaign setting? If such monsters exist, figuring out how common they are and how they interact with the world is an important thing to sort out. Even if such creatures cannot be summoned, they can be sought out and bargained with (or enslaved, etc.) using spells and/or skills.

I'm not saying that having such things around torpedoes a campaign like yours, just that you want to get it figured out in advance so you don't run into trouble later on with some "end runs" (whether intentional or accidental) around your restrictions. :smallsmile:

[Amaril]

Lesser Planar Ally is available as a Level 4 cleric spell. I haven't looked over the summon lists lately, but it wouldn't surprise me if you can get some good SLA access via 6 HD outsiders. More importantly, do any monsters with higher casting levels or high level SLAs exist anywhere in the campaign setting? If such monsters exist, figuring out how common they are and how they interact with the world is an important thing to sort out. Even if such creatures cannot be summoned, they can be sought out and bargained with (or enslaved, etc.) using spells and/or skills.

I'm not saying that having such things around torpedoes a campaign like yours, just that you want to get it figured out in advance so you don't run into trouble later on with some "end runs" (whether intentional or accidental) around your restrictions. :smallsmile:

Hm, I might end up banning summon monster after all, then--divine magic was always going to be better at summoning than arcane in this world anyway, and it would make just as much sense if only divine casters can do it period.

For the monsters...well, right off the bat my dragons come to mind, but these ones are basically physical gods who've been sealed away in hibernation beneath the earth for thousands of years. If one wakes up, it'll be more on the level of a natural disaster than a monster, and definitely won't get stats. Powerful angels and demons can do a lot better than 4th-level spells, but nothing like that is available for summoning, so, not really an issue. The only other things that occur to me are ogres (I'm making all my ogres spellcasters, and highly intelligent) and some of the most powerful star elf lords, and I still don't think I'd put any of them above 4th-level spells.

[Calimehter]

Sounds good.

Some other 4th level spells that come to mind that can leave an imprint on society and world-building:

Sending (Cleric 4) - ye alde text messaging system. Instantaneous communication over any distance is handy enough that a church that had a 7th or 8th level cleric would probably have him casting that at least once a day (and/or making scrolls of it for emergency use).

Scrying (Wiz 4 and Druid 4) - You can't "Scry and Die" with it with no Teleport, but you can do a nice job of spying against anyone w/o high level magic (Nondetection) or a lot of lead-lined surroundings.

Reincarnate (Druid 4) - You get a random race, which in my experience can get a bit comic, but its leaves an "out" to bring back the prematurely deceased.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (Wiz 4) - Powerful casters should be powerful, but the highest level ones get a *very* significant leg up on anyone who can't cast 4th level spells via this spell.

[Amaril]

Sending (Cleric 4) - ye alde text messaging system. Instantaneous communication over any distance is handy enough that a church that had a 7th or 8th level cleric would probably have him casting that at least once a day (and/or making scrolls of it for emergency use).

Got that covered--the Sovereign Powers of Law and Chaos only answer the prayers of their disciples for miracles in times of true need. So this can happen, but it's not commonplace. This applies to PCs, too--clerics and paladins who try to invoke miracles when their patrons deem it unnecessary will be very disappointed with the DM :smalltongue:


Scrying (Wiz 4 and Druid 4) - You can't "Scry and Die" with it with no Teleport, but you can do a nice job of spying against anyone w/o high level magic (Nondetection) or a lot of lead-lined surroundings.

Sure, I'm okay with this. There'll be maybe twenty spellcasters in the known world who can pull this off, and I always expected it to be a thing they do.


Reincarnate (Druid 4) - You get a random race, which in my experience can get a bit comic, but its leaves an "out" to bring back the prematurely deceased.

Oh, that reminds me--no druids. All divine magic comes from either Law or Chaos, so that wishy-washy "spirits of nature" stuff or whatever they use is right out. Rangers get bonus feats instead of druid magic.


Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (Wiz 4) - Powerful casters should be powerful, but the highest level ones get a *very* significant leg up on anyone who can't cast 4th level spells via this spell.

Also fine. It's definitely hugely powerful, but its effects are short-term and mostly limited to personal combat, which doesn't break things too much. When the people who can do this get personally involved in battles, pretty much everyone else is already heading for the hills anyway.

[Jeff the Green]

Got that covered--the Sovereign Powers of Law and Chaos only answer the prayers of their disciples for miracles in times of true need. So this can happen, but it's not commonplace. This applies to PCs, too--clerics and paladins who try to invoke miracles when their patrons deem it unnecessary will be very disappointed with the DM.

That's not what sending does. It lets you transmit a short message to anyone on the same plane as you.

[Amaril]

That's not what sending does. It lets you transmit a short message to anyone on the same plane as you.

Yeah, I'm familiar. Nonetheless, when cast by a cleric, it's a miracle made possible by the gods (or something similar in this case), and in this world, the powers that be won't do it for you if they don't think it's really important.

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, I'm familiar. Nonetheless, when cast by a cleric, it's a miracle made possible by the gods (or something similar in this case), and in this world, the powers that be won't do it for you if they don't think it's really important.

Doesn't that apply to all cleric spells? Why would anyone even consider playing a cleric in this case?

[Amaril]

Doesn't that apply to all cleric spells? Why would anyone even consider playing a cleric in this case?

First, because you don't play a cleric in any campaign that won't allow them to serve the interests of their divine patron. Ever. The rules specify that they have a code of conduct (which doesn't seem to get enforced nearly as often as it should), and they're expected to act as an agent of their deity's interests in the realm of mortals. That's why they're granted miracles in the first place. If the mission your cleric is on isn't important enough for their Sovereign Power to take an interest in it, the cleric shouldn't be on the mission.

Second, the more powerful a spell, the less likely the Powers are to grant it. A PC cleric will be able to cast cure light wounds pretty much any time without trouble--it's assumed that their Power cares enough about whatever it is they're doing to grant miracles that weak. Fourth-level miracles will be harder to get, but by the time a cleric is able to request them, it's likewise assumed that the stuff they're doing is important enough to merit their use. It's not like there are actual rules for this that might prevent a player's cleric from using magic on a regular basis in-game; it pretty much just applies to NPCs, the people who stay home while the PCs go out and do important stuff.

Thirdly, the possibility of a cleric's prayers not being answered gives them an actual reason to learn the combat skills that the class gets. Likewise, the chance of divine healing not working makes mundane first aid more worthwhile (again, in-setting, not in-game).

[Coidzor]

First, because you don't play a cleric in any campaign that won't allow them to serve the interests of their divine patron. Ever. The rules specify that they have a code of conduct (which doesn't seem to get enforced nearly as often as it should), and they're expected to act as an agent of their deity's interests in the realm of mortals. That's why they're granted miracles in the first place. If the mission your cleric is on isn't important enough for their Sovereign Power to take an interest in it, the cleric shouldn't be on the mission.

Codes of Conduct are a bad idea is part of that. :smalltongue: Just look at the poor Paladin. Severely reducing the playability of divine casters is not something to be done lightly.

Also, if it's not important enough for a God to take interest, how are they leveling up in the first place to be able to tackle things of interest to their God? :smalltongue: You're not really being consistent on that point.

[Amaril]

Codes of Conduct are a bad idea is part of that. :smalltongue: Just look at the poor Paladin. Severely reducing the playability of divine casters is not something to be done lightly.

Also, if it's not important enough for a God to take interest, how are they leveling up in the first place to be able to tackle things of interest to their God? :smalltongue: You're not really being consistent on that point.

Well I happen to think the code of conduct rules are actually a good thing. I always see people talking about how unbalanced clerics are, being primary casters and whatnot, and I figure their codes are there to tip the scales back a little--they get all this amazing power, but only if they earn it. I've also heard complaints of paladins being OP (mostly from my dad), and figured their code was in place for the same reason, but I never really see anyone around here making that claim in the first place, so I'm not sure what to think. It does nothing to solve the balance problems with wizards, of course.

On the latter point, maybe I'm just not very coherent right now (it's late and I'm tired), but I'm a little confused about what you mean. I'll try and explain anyway, though. Basically, when you start out as a 1st-level cleric, your god/Sovereign Power only expects you to be handling minor tasks, and is prepared to invest exactly as much power in you as you need to accomplish this. As you prove yourself a more capable servant, they'll start giving you more and more to work with, and you'll be required to do more significant stuff. Working a 1st-level miracle is easy, so they're willing to make it happen for you even if you're just dealing with small-potatoes missions, but a 4th-level miracle is a big deal, so they'll only give you one if they think it's worth the trouble. The reason none of this is a problem for PC clerics is that they're assumed to be doing stuff that's important enough to their Power that it'll grant them miracles commensurate with their current level, because they're PCs, and PCs do important PC things. The only real time a PC cleric would be denied a miracle is if they were working at direct cross purposes to their Power's interests, in which case you're playing the wrong character in the wrong group.

Does that make it any clearer? If not, then I'll take that as a sign that I should be in bed, and try to come up with something better tomorrow.

[Jeff the Green]

First, because you don't play a cleric in any campaign that won't allow them to serve the interests of their divine patron. Ever. The rules specify that they have a code of conduct (which doesn't seem to get enforced nearly as often as it should), and they're expected to act as an agent of their deity's interests in the realm of mortals. That's why they're granted miracles in the first place. If the mission your cleric is on isn't important enough for their Sovereign Power to take an interest in it, the cleric shouldn't be on the mission.

Second, the more powerful a spell, the less likely the Powers are to grant it. A PC cleric will be able to cast cure light wounds pretty much any time without trouble--it's assumed that their Power cares enough about whatever it is they're doing to grant miracles that weak. Fourth-level miracles will be harder to get, but by the time a cleric is able to request them, it's likewise assumed that the stuff they're doing is important enough to merit their use. It's not like there are actual rules for this that might prevent a player's cleric from using magic on a regular basis in-game; it pretty much just applies to NPCs, the people who stay home while the PCs go out and do important stuff.

Thirdly, the possibility of a cleric's prayers not being answered gives them an actual reason to learn the combat skills that the class gets. Likewise, the chance of divine healing not working makes mundane first aid more worthwhile (again, in-setting, not in-game).

That does not make me want to play a cleric any more. "Your class features may randomly fail to work, not because of a rule but on DM whim," is way, way, way too old-school for me.

Characters, regardless of their class, should be able to use their powers to do things that aren't strictly related to their job. A wizard's spells should work just as well for cleaning his laundry as they do for blasting the undead protectors of a magical artifact into oblivion. A warblade's Mountain Hammer should work just as well for removing ugly boulders from his front lawn as for smashing in golems' heads. And a cleric should be able to use his spells to tell his mom that he's doing okay, not just for smiting the unrighteous. (If you need to, think of it as payment; real priests get a salary they're entitled to spend on—wholesome, admittedly—hobbies. If your god expects you to smite the infidel in addition to performing basic rites, the recompense should be significantly more, probably more than can reasonably be paid with gold.)

I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying I would never in a million years consider playing a divine character in such a setting.

Edit:
Bother. This is what I get for taking so long to type a rant.


Well I happen to think the code of conduct rules are actually a good thing. I always see people talking about how unbalanced clerics are, being primary casters and whatnot, and I figure their codes are there to tip the scales back a little--they get all this amazing power, but only if they earn it. I've also heard complaints of paladins being OP (mostly from my dad), and figured their code was in place for the same reason, but I never really see anyone around here making that claim in the first place, so I'm not sure what to think. It does nothing to solve the balance problems with wizards, of course.

Codes absolutely do not balance classes. They just constrain roleplaying. To some extent that's fine (choosing to play a priest of X god is innately constraining), but when they get too specific and restrictive it's just annoying. (Also, no one says that the paladin's code is there to "tip the scales" because, if anything, the paladin's scales need to be tipped in the other direction.)


On the latter point, maybe I'm just not very coherent right now (it's late and I'm tired), but I'm a little confused about what you mean. I'll try and explain anyway, though. Basically, when you start out as a 1st-level cleric, your god/Sovereign Power only expects you to be handling minor tasks, and is prepared to invest exactly as much power in you as you need to accomplish this. As you prove yourself a more capable servant, they'll start giving you more and more to work with, and you'll be required to do more significant stuff. Working a 1st-level miracle is easy, so they're willing to make it happen for you even if you're just dealing with small-potatoes missions, but a 4th-level miracle is a big deal, so they'll only give you one if they think it's worth the trouble. The reason none of this is a problem for PC clerics is that they're assumed to be doing stuff that's important enough to their Power that it'll grant them miracles commensurate with their current level, because they're PCs, and PCs do important PC things. The only real time a PC cleric would be denied a miracle is if they were working at direct cross purposes to their Power's interests, in which case you're playing the wrong character in the wrong group.

Does that make it any clearer? If not, then I'll take that as a sign that I should be in bed, and try to come up with something better tomorrow.

Why even bother having gods refuse spells anyway? Working at cross-purposes with your deity is definitely a gross code-violation for any order and so you wouldn't just not have your spell work, you'd fall. And why would the rules work differently for PCs and NPCs? In general I think this should be dealt with by having deities just refuse to grant higher-level spells to less-reliable acolytes (i.e. they can't level up in cleric) and then letting them fall for gross violations of code as normal.

Maybe it's because I'm cynical (and maybe because I primarily play PbP, where I don't initially know my DM), but setting up such a rule strikes me as a really good way for a DM to screw a player over on a whim. DMs already have enough ways of doing that; you don't need to make a rule to give them another.

[Amaril]

That does not make me want to play a cleric any more. "Your class features may randomly fail to work, not because of a rule but on DM whim," is way, way, way too old-school for me.

I know you mean old-school as not your cup of tea here, but right now, that's exactly what I'm in the mood for. Also, like I meant to be saying above, the restriction is not meant to apply to PCs.


Characters, regardless of their class, should be able to do things that aren't strictly related to their job. A wizard's spells should work just as well for cleaning his laundry as they do for blasting the undead protectors of a magical artifact into oblivion. A warblade's Mountain Hammer should work just as well for removing ugly boulders from his front lawn as for smashing in golems' heads. And a cleric should be able to use his spells to tell his mom that he's doing okay, not just for smiting the unrighteous. (If you need to, think of it as payment; real priests get a salary they're entitled to spend on—wholesome, admittedly—hobbies. If your god expects you to smite the infidel in addition to performing basic rites, the recompense should be significantly more, probably more than can reasonably be paid with gold.)

That makes sense if the forces that control your world are not complete d***heads. Sadly, this is not the case in Thiria. Law has no concept of "kindness" or "mercy" or "compensation for duties done"--either you serve the God-Machine like the obedient little drone you're meant to be, or you're exterminated. Chaos is more helpful sometimes, but then again, sometimes even less so. It's unpredictable like that.


I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying I would never in a million years consider playing a divine character in such a setting.

Understandable--it takes a special kind of crazy to be a cleric or paladin in Thiria, in-game and IRL :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Well I happen to think the code of conduct rules are actually a good thing. I always see people talking about how unbalanced clerics are, being primary casters and whatnot, and I figure their codes are there to tip the scales back a little--they get all this amazing power, but only if they earn it. I've also heard complaints of paladins being OP (mostly from my dad), and figured their code was in place for the same reason, but I never really see anyone around here making that claim in the first place, so I'm not sure what to think. It does nothing to solve the balance problems with wizards, of course.

Your dad was probably not playing 3.5. If he was playing 3.5, then he was and is very badly mistaken. The Codes of Conduct do not balance out Clerics or Paladins in the slightest. Treating them as such merely causes Clerics to be wildly swingy between almost total incompetence and phenomenal cosmic power. While if you don't touch the arcane casters they're just sitting pretty. Which doesn't make sense from a mechanics standpoint in the slightest. Clerics and Druids and Wizards are all roughly on par with one another with Wizards having the strongest list, though there is significant overlap.

[Jeff the Green]

That makes sense if the forces that control your world are not complete d***heads. Sadly, this is not the case in Thiria. Law has no concept of "kindness" or "mercy" or "compensation for duties done"--either you serve the God-Machine like the obedient little drone you're meant to be, or you're exterminated. Chaos is more helpful sometimes, but then again, sometimes even less so. It's unpredictable like that.

...

Understandable--it takes a special kind of crazy to be a cleric or paladin in Thiria, in-game and IRL :smalltongue:

Ah, okay. In that case, mission accomplished. I would encourage you to be very up front with players about this, though, particularly ones that have been playing a while and expect class features to just work.

I'd also encourage you to not put the same restriction on Crusaders or paladins; they don't need the nerf.

(Also, see edits to my last post for replies to your ninja.)

[Zman]

Well I'm running a game in that kind of a setting right now. I created an E10 Variant where characters end up 10//10 Gestalts. Also uses my Overhaul, E10 Classes, Minor Magic fix and casters are limited to 4th level spells. Some higher level spells are available as expensive rituals.

So far it's been great, but my E10 has a loot of changes over standard. Links in my Sig if you are interested.

I'm basically using Forgotten realms lite, think all FR cannon as the stories the bards tell in Taverns, the real world is far different.

[Amaril]

Codes absolutely do not balance classes. They just constrain roleplaying. To some extent that's fine (choosing to play a priest of X god is innately constraining), but when they get too specific and restrictive it's just annoying. (Also, no one says that the paladin's code is there to "tip the scales" because, if anything, the paladin's scales need to be tipped in the other direction.)

Okay, fair enough on the balance thing, I don't really have the experience to dispute something like that. Of course codes get annoying when they're too specific and restrictive, but when did I imply that would be the case? I never meant to, anyway--I haven't even figured out the codes of particular religions. Also, said religions' commandments are largely separate from the wishes of the Powers themselves, both of which have the ultimate objective of "destroy the universe" (people only worship them because they don't really know about that part).


Why even bother having gods refuse spells anyway? Working at cross-purposes with your deity is definitely a gross code-violation for any order and so you wouldn't just not have your spell work, you'd fall. And why would the rules work differently for PCs and NPCs? In general I think this should be dealt with by having deities just refuse to grant higher-level spells to less-reliable acolytes (i.e. they can't level up in cleric) and then letting them fall for gross violations of code as normal.

Maybe it's because I'm cynical (and maybe because I primarily play PbP, where I don't initially know my DM), but setting up such a rule strikes me as a really good way for a DM to screw a player over on a whim. DMs already have enough ways of doing that; you don't need to make a rule to give them another.

The whole thing about refusing spells was only meant to serve as a justification for why NPC clerics can't get away with some of the high-magic shenanigans that spells like sending would allow them to do. It's fine if the PCs can do that stuff, they're supposed to be special anyway, and it's only really important for the world to make logical sense before they arrive to mess things up. Again, and I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this several times, there are no actual rules planned for determining whether or not a PC cleric can use their powers, because unless they fall, they'll always be able to.


Ah, okay. In that case, mission accomplished. I would encourage you to be very up front with players about this, though, particularly ones that have been playing a while and expect class features to just work.

As above, all I'd really need to warn them about is that I'd be enforcing the rules about said classes falling if they grossly violate their beliefs. I'd tell them more than that anyway, of course, because, as I'm sure you've noticed by now, once I get started talking about how cool I think my setting design is, it's impossible to get me to shut up :smalltongue:


I'd also encourage you to not put the same restriction on Crusaders or paladins; they don't need the nerf.

PHB only, remember? No crusaders. Paladins fill that thematic role well enough on their own.

[Calimehter]

I'm fine with the idea of divine casting having limitations imposed by the divine sources of such casting. Said divine sources are the ones 'writing the checks' so to speak, and so long as they players have a pretty good idea of what will and won't be accepted for playing the priest of any given divine source and aren't blindsided by any of it, it should work out.

One question that might come up, though, is scrolls. These are functionally spells that are cast "now" and used "later", so the casting of the spell is somewhat divorced from the situation that the spell is actually used for. Does this mean that the divine powers that be will *never* allow a 4th level scroll to be created, since there is no absolute guarantee that the scroll will be used in a manner favored by the gods?

[Amaril]

One question that might come up, though, is scrolls. These are functionally spells that are cast "now" and used "later", so the casting of the spell is somewhat divorced from the situation that the spell is actually used for. Does this mean that the divine powers that be will *never* allow a 4th level scroll to be created, since there is no absolute guarantee that the scroll will be used in a manner favored by the gods?

I'm still not sure what to do with divine scrolls in this setting, really. I already know I don't want divine casters making magic items; the few divine magic items that exist are one-of-a-kind sacred relics of immense power, and can't normally be be replicated by mortals. I'm considering axing divine spell scrolls and potions too, but I worry that might unbalance the game...would it, though? Only wizards get scrolls as a class feature, and I don't get the sense most PC clerics take the feat anyway...

[WhamBamSam]

The absence of healing potions might be an issue, especially at low levels and it'll make healing a lot less efficient in general, with no wands of CLW. Otherwise it's probably not hugely problematic, as E8 or not, PHB only is going to make game balance favor casters even more than usual. The worst thing about it is that it'll hurt Rogues too, as there will be a lot less for them to UMD.

[Amaril]

The absence of healing potions might be an issue, especially at low levels and it'll make healing a lot less efficient in general, with no wands of CLW. Otherwise it's probably not hugely problematic, as E8 or not, PHB only is going to make game balance favor casters even more than usual. The worst thing about it is that it'll hurt Rogues too, as there will be a lot less for them to UMD.

Are wants of CLW normally commonplace at low levels? :smallconfused: Likewise, in all my games, I've never gotten the impression that UMD was really that important for rogues to be effective.

[Blackhawk748]

Are wants of CLW normally commonplace at low levels? :smallconfused: Likewise, in all my games, I've never gotten the impression that UMD was really that important for rogues to be effective.

Half the games i play in someone has a wand of CLW by lvl 3 at the latest, its the most efficient out of combat healer short of lesser vigor.

UMD for rogues is either all or nothing, either hes jacked it to the Nine Hells or he didnt put any points in it, at least in my experience

[Amaril]

Half the games i play in someone has a wand of CLW by lvl 3 at the latest, its the most efficient out of combat healer short of lesser vigor.

UMD for rogues is either all or nothing, either hes jacked it to the Nine Hells or he didnt put any points in it, at least in my experience

Huh, well that's news to me--I've never even seen a wand of CLW in any of the games I've played.

So it's entirely possible to play a rogue without using UMD, then? So it shouldn't make much difference. Besides, there are still a fair number of arcane magic items in this world; the High Council of Wizardry sells them occasionally, some get stolen from them, and there are a few non-Council wizards who can make them as well. So the skill won't be useless by any means.

[Metahuman1]

Just my two cents, you'd likely get better mileage out of an E6 Gestalt World.

[Amaril]

Just my two cents, you'd likely get better mileage out of an E6 Gestalt World.

How do you mean?

[Calimehter]

I'm still not sure what to do with divine scrolls in this setting, really. I already know I don't want divine casters making magic items; the few divine magic items that exist are one-of-a-kind sacred relics of immense power, and can't normally be be replicated by mortals. I'm considering axing divine spell scrolls and potions too, but I worry that might unbalance the game...would it, though? Only wizards get scrolls as a class feature, and I don't get the sense most PC clerics take the feat anyway...

Allowing wizards to have full access to their spells and item creation abilities while at the same time restricting or removing access for the divine casters means that wizards become . . . well, more important in the world. They alone will have 'situational' scrolls on hand for those times when situational-type spells are handy, and they alone can benefit from making powerful items for use or sale on an as-needed basis. Its a resource that the wizards guilds will have, and the churches will not, and that should probably be reflected in the power and/or wealth that those respective groups have in the campaign world.

Maybe to put it another way - are churches (and wizards guilds for that matter) meant to have an active integrated role in everyday society, or are they going to be more like mysterious monestaries up on a hilltop that only really come into play during times of great trouble? Having only a few powerful divinely-gifted items tends to make me think of the latter, while the ability to cast spells and make items on an as-needed daily basis tends to make me think of the former.

The loss of divine items can have an impact on actual gameplay, too. I play in a fairly 'low-op' group by the standards of the more active posters on the forum, but even we appreciate having access to some healing potions and/or wands, even though we usually don't bother with the latter till much higher levels. A lack of divine items either forces the party to really space out their encounters and/or forces someone in the party to play a cleric who reserves a large chunk of their spell slots for healing.

Again, nothing *wrong* with any of that, just things to consider before starting.

[Amaril]

Allowing wizards to have full access to their spells and item creation abilities while at the same time restricting or removing access for the divine casters means that wizards become . . . well, more important in the world. They alone will have 'situational' scrolls on hand for those times when situational-type spells are handy, and they alone can benefit from making powerful items for use or sale on an as-needed basis. Its a resource that the wizards guilds will have, and the churches will not, and that should probably be reflected in the power and/or wealth that those respective groups have in the campaign world.

Maybe to put it another way - are churches (and wizards guilds for that matter) meant to have an active integrated role in everyday society, or are they going to be more like mysterious monestaries up on a hilltop that only really come into play during times of great trouble? Having only a few powerful divinely-gifted items tends to make me think of the latter, while the ability to cast spells and make items on an as-needed daily basis tends to make me think of the former.

Okay, let me think this through.

1) The role of churches and other religious orders in society will vary heavily by region. One of the most powerful kingdoms in the world, Larond, is the center of a huge religion called the Church of the Black Divinity, the iconic Law-worshipers of the setting (Law is black, Chaos is white). They have an active and direct role in Larondish politics and culture, as befitting an order determined to improve the world by controlling the people and ensuring obedience to divine Law. Under their influence, Larond is currently engaged in an expansionist war to conquer the whole region and convert as many people as possible to the Black. On the other hand, religious orders dedicated to Chaos rarely operate this way--they tend to behave more like anarchist cells, and are much less monolithic or organized pretty much worldwide. So yeah, it pretty much depends entirely on what religion is in question.

2) There is only one primary order of wizards in Thiria, the High Council of Wizardry. This is much easier to answer--the second possibility you described is pretty much exactly them. The Council's primary function is to protect mortal magic-users from the Wild Hunt, the roving bands of star elf warriors who hunt down foreign mages whenever they find them. Wizards have to pass a test to join the Council, requiring them to be able to cast at least 2nd-level spells (the level of power at which the seers of the Wild Hunt are able to detect them). Members are granted magical cloaks that mask them from the Hunt's divinations; as they move up in rank, they get better and better cloaks, which allow them to cast higher and higher level spells without being detected. Additionally, they get access to the Council's fortress, which provides a safe haven and resources for magical study. The Council's main goal has always been protecting their own, but individual members are free to go and adventure as much as they want, so long as they don't do anything that reflects badly on the Council as a whole. The wizards do produce magic items, but they're not sold to outsiders freely, so no magic shops. Sorcerers in Thiria are normally those people born with magical abilities who never managed to get to the Council and be properly trained, and instead had to make it on their own with the Hunt always breathing down their necks--hence why commoners shun sorcerers, because slaughtering whatever settlement a renegade mage is found in is common practice for the Hunt. There are also various hedge-mages outside of the Council, the kind of people who didn't have the talent to make it past 1st-level spells, and can operate safely without the Hunt noticing them anyway. They're still not common, but more so than proper wizards.


The loss of divine items can have an impact on actual gameplay, too. I play in a fairly 'low-op' group by the standards of the more active posters on the forum, but even we appreciate having access to some healing potions and/or wands, even though we usually don't bother with the latter till much higher levels. A lack of divine items either forces the party to really space out their encounters and/or forces someone in the party to play a cleric who reserves a large chunk of their spell slots for healing.

I'd probably still have healing potions be a thing. Bards can cast healing spells with arcane magic, so I'd probably just say there are mages out there who make healing potions, even if the PC wizards and sorcerers technically can't do it themselves. And honestly, I've never really found a scarcity of healing items to be a problem anyway, at least not in the games I've played. Plus, again, it gives people incentive to use the Heal skill more.

Have I covered everything important?

[Calimehter]

Sounds like a cool setting. :smallsmile:


The Council's main goal has always been protecting their own, but individual members are free to go and adventure as much as they want, so long as they don't do anything that reflects badly on the Council as a whole. The wizards do produce magic items, but they're not sold to outsiders freely, so no magic shops.

That bit might need to be spelled out in some more detail. For example, what would happen if an adventuring wizard decided to make a profit selling magic items? Would the council go so far as to strip his membership and toss him to the wolves (almost literally in this case), or is it just "frowned on" and causes the stodgy older members to chew on their cigars and go "harrumph" and keep the young iconoclast out of leadership positions? I'm not solely thinking about a wizard setting up 'ye olde magic shoppe' on a street corner, either. There's also the chance that rich organizations could offer substantial enticements to a wizard to craft magic items for them, or other options that would be less in the public eye (and probably the Council's eye, too). PCs who take crafting feats (even if its nominally just to make gear for themselves and their immediate teammates) will probably want to have some rough idea of how these questions are answered. How they are answered will also determine how easy it is to get items on a 'secondary' market even if there are no shops or councils to buy directly from, which in turn helps determine how 'magical' the world feels as the PCs interact with it.

The cloaks are a cool idea, but might need some more spelling out too. Can the Council cloaks be crafted by somebody with Craft Wonderous Item . . . i.e. could a nonmember wizard (especially one who gained access to a cloak) figure out how to make them? How bent out of shape would the council get about a non-council member using one of their cloaks (even if they can't be forged, they can be lost or stolen) especially given that the cloaks power seems to be focused on preventing the wearer from the very divination-style magicks that the Council would presumably use to learn about and track down such a transgressor?

I guess a lot of this boils down to just how 'hard core' the Council is about enforcing its principles on all of its members (and as the chief repositories of arcane power, upon society as a whole).