[PF] Inscribe Magical Tattoo - Whats possible? Whats it cost?

[mevans7]

I just... I need help with this feat. I'm taking it as flavor.

We're currently in an evil campaign, as members of an organized crime syndicate, and with monetary bonuses available for being especially creative when it comes to criminal mischief, we're anticipating a high wealth campaign. On the other hand, wondrous items are going to be difficult to come by, or somewhat over-priced on the black market.

The feat: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation

The Rules: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values

So, I was wondering, say I wanted something simple, like a Ring of Sustenance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-sustenance) and wanted to tattoo it in a ring slot, it would cost me double the crafting cost, but still allow me, or whomever I tattoo'd, the ability to wear 2 regular rings still. Is that correct?

Does that logic apply as long as I'm basically "copying" pre-existing wondrous items as tattoos? Do any of the "discounts" apply since it would be impossible to resell the tattoo?

If I wanted to venture in to creating some of my own tattoos, I was having a hard time calculating the cost. Even many of the wondrous items listed as examples don't seem to add up in terms of cost, so if anyone has used this in a campaign or is just generally experienced with creating their own magical items, it would be a great help.

[Der_DWSage]

The short version?

The tattoo can make scrolls at 5x cost (So, 2.5x the cost to buy, since you're crafting them) and that can be worn, so it's more difficult to remove them.

The tattoo can technically make any item-though my own GM limited it to the Wondrous Item list alone, and I feel that's a fair thing to do. The pricing of a tattoo is as if it were a slotless item. So, to copy most items, the crafting price is the same as the purchase price. To make slotless items (Such as the figurines of wondrous power, a bag of holding, or a Scabbard of Keen Edges) it will instead be half price as per normal.

And yes, you can indeed make a Tattoo of Sustenance, and still have room for two rings. The tattoos essentially (almost) double your slots for magic items, though the 'doubled' portion must be tattoos only.

[Serafina]

RAW you can apply any worn wondrous item as a magical tattoo - with GM-permission.
The cost would simply be double of any wondrous item you are copying.

Of course, just copy-pasting existing wondrous items is boring, not to mention that doubling your magic item slots is very powerful. Try sticking to flavorful tattoos - the existing tattoos usually revolve around making the tattoo come to live or storing magical energy in it/using it as a conduit.

A few examples:

A Angelic Wing Tattoo (based on Wings of Flying) would be a elegant tattoo of feathered wings on your back, which can come alive and allow actual flight.

A Vine Tattoo (based on Robes of Infinite Twine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-infinite-twine) depicts vines entwining the bearers body. The vines can sprout from the wearers body and grow up to 30 feet per round (same as the robe, but without the option for lots of rope at once) and can also aid the wearer with climbing (+5 competence bonus). The price would be 6000 gp (2500 for the +5 competence climb, half the cost of the robes (similar ability and you lose some of the robes ability and then multiplied by two), and costs half as much to create as usual

A Blooming Step Tattoo (based on Verdant Boots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/boots-verdant) and Feather Step Slippers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/slippers-feather-step) covers the bearers feet and legs in images of blooming flowers on a spring meadow. She can step through any type of vegetation without being hindered (ignoring difficult terrain) and can magically cause flowers to spring from the ground she steps on (as Verdant boots, except always flowers). The price for
this magical artwork would be 25500 gp (12000 for the Verdant Boots effect, no modification for the change in flavor. Half of the price of Feather Step Slippers since it only works on vegetation and not other kinds of terrain, but count as similar effect so only 3/4 of that (750 gp). Multiplied by 2 because slotless) and as usual the cost for creation is half that.

A Runic Readers Tattoo (based on Mmenonic Vestments (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic))covers the bearers body in complicated intertwined lines of arcane text text that change according to the flux of their magic. They enhance their understanding of written texts, whether magic or mundane (+5 competence on Spellcraft checks to decipher scrolls and magical glpyhs, constant Read Magic, constant Comphrehend Languages for written text only). Their real power applies to spontaneous spellcasters, who can use them to channel their own magic through a written source (as Mmenonic Vestment, but 5/day).
The price would be 60000 gp (25000 for a Mnemnonic Vestment with 5 times as many charges. 1250 for competence bonus 1500 gp (CL 1 x SL 1 x 2000, x1.5 because of 10 minute/CL duration, x0.5 because it only applies to written text) while constant Read Magic costs the same (no limitation, but only 0th-level spell. Doubled, then rounded up at the end).

[Erik Vale]

As above, but it's my belief they cost the same, because they still take up a slot, they just take up the tattoo version of that slot, giving you more space to play around in. However the drawback with tattoo's is that they're easier to destroy by spells [erase] and damage.

For Spell tattoos, it's 4* market price not 5*. And they are unusual in that they count as slotless despite the normal rules.

*Edit with check reading before post*

Huh, they do cost double. Strange. Well only the note for spell tattoos.

[Alleran]

I used it once to create a (cheap-ish) tattoo that gave the same effect as the resonance result of a PF wayfinder + clear spindle ioun stone combination. Had the tattoo on the character's chest, right over the heart.

Downside of the tattoos is that while they double your number of item slots, they're also slightly easier to destroy:

"Magical tattoos are difficult to destroy, though they count as magic items for the purposes of dispel magic. The spell erase can permanently destroy a magical tattoo, but the bearer of the tattoo can resist the spell with a Will save, in addition to the caster needing to make a successful caster level check to erase the tattoo. Physically removing a magical tattoo with a sharp instrument or defacing it with fire or acid can destroy it as well. Doing so is a full-round action that not only requires the target to be willing or helpless, but also provokes attacks of opportunity. At least 2 points of damage per caster level of the tattoo must be dealt to destroy a magical tattoo in this manner."

[mevans7]

RAW you can apply any worn wondrous item as a magical tattoo - with GM-permission.
The cost would simply be double of any wondrous item you are copying.

Of course, just copy-pasting existing wondrous items is boring, not to mention that doubling your magic item slots is very powerful. Try sticking to flavorful tattoos - the existing tattoos usually revolve around making the tattoo come to live or storing magical energy in it/using it as a conduit.

A few examples:

A Angelic Wing Tattoo (based on Wings of Flying) would be a elegant tattoo of feathered wings on your back, which can come alive and allow actual flight.

A Vine Tattoo (based on Robes of Infinite Twine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-infinite-twine) depicts vines entwining the bearers body. The vines can sprout from the wearers body and grow up to 30 feet per round (same as the robe, but without the option for lots of rope at once) and can also aid the wearer with climbing (+5 competence bonus). The price would be 6000 gp (2500 for the +5 competence climb, half the cost of the robes (similar ability and you lose some of the robes ability and then multiplied by two), and costs half as much to create as usual


You're right, copying items is boring. I'd want to make my own, but my issue is this: going off the examples given in the chart that I linked, I can't figure out how Paizo came up with the numbers.

For instance, the Wings of Flying on paper (to me) should look like this:
{spell level*caster level*2000[because it's continuous]+(skill increase^2*100)}x2 because its slotless
or
{3*5*2000+(25*100)}x2= 65000gp to craft.

But logic tells us that the cost of crafting the tattoo should be double the crafting cost of the same wondrous item (in other words, the cost of buying the item outright), or 54000gp. Quite a difference. Also, that takes into account the very minimum caster level for casting Fly, even though the CL listed on Wings of Flying is 10.... which yeah. That's expensive.

The Robes of Infinite Twine makes sense as you've written it, but my problem there is that the magic that goes into a robe of infinite twine is actually greater than in the Wings. Minor Creation is a 4th level spell for all but the summoner. So how do they determine that that item in particular is worth only 1000gp? I understand that the Robe is much more limited in capabilities than the spell Minor Creation used to make it, but even so, I don't see how the math breaks down. The addition of the skill point makes sense per the table, but I'm hung up on the original cost of many of the wondrous items.

My ideas right now for tattoos are pretty mundane, but I'm sure I'll come up with more interesting things as the campaign progresses. We've got a pyromaniac blaster wizard that would probably love a tattoo on his arm that casts Fireball or Burning Hands a number of times per day. For our drow, I'd tattoo a black sun on his chest that emulates the Deeper Darkness spell. The flavor text needs work, but eventually I hope to create a pretty menacing band of tattoo'd miscreants.

My concern right now is figuring out how much these things are gonna cost me, because I really don't want to make my DM do all the leg work. We play weekly so he works hard already. I just don't want to come up with prices that are cost prohibitive, when they could actually be much cheaper.

Also, I'd really love to work feats into tattoos, like in the example tattoo given by Paizo in the Inner Sea guide:
Caster's Tattoo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/tattoo-caster-s)
But I don't see any way of calculating that as per the wondrous item creation table.

Edit:
@Alleran
I'm not overly concerned with them being destroyed. I could see if we really start to abuse the tattoos, some caster might catch wind and start to carry scrolls, or even memorize, the Erase spell. But the odds of that succeeding are slim, considering it's Will based, a low level spell, and has a short range. As far as removing it by force, the person would have to be helpless for that to happen. The former situation might bug a few players and the DM might catch some sideways glances, but I don't see him doing this unless we really go to town with these tattoos. The later situation, just sounds like an opportunity for some awesome role-play. I'm thinking Reservoir Dogs "Stuck in the Middle With You" style torture scene.

[Yanisa]

You're right, copying items is boring. I'd want to make my own, but my issue is this: going off the examples given in the chart that I linked, I can't figure out how Paizo came up with the numbers.

For instance, the Wings of Flying on paper (to me) should look like this:
{spell level*caster level*2000[because it's continuous]+(skill increase^2*100)}x2 because its slotless
or
{3*5*2000+(25*100)}x2= 65000gp to craft.

But logic tells us that the cost of crafting the tattoo should be double the crafting cost of the same wondrous item (in other words, the cost of buying the item outright), or 54000gp. Quite a difference. Also, that takes into account the very minimum caster level for casting Fly, even though the CL listed on Wings of Flying is 10.... which yeah. That's expensive.

The Robes of Infinite Twine makes sense as you've written it, but my problem there is that the magic that goes into a robe of infinite twine is actually greater than in the Wings. Minor Creation is a 4th level spell for all but the summoner. So how do they determine that that item in particular is worth only 1000gp? I understand that the Robe is much more limited in capabilities than the spell Minor Creation used to make it, but even so, I don't see how the math breaks down. The addition of the skill point makes sense per the table, but I'm hung up on the original cost of many of the wondrous items.


Default Magic Item costs are often adjusted because of the power of the item. These numbers are sporadic and chaotic and are without any formula. There is a reason why the table is called "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" and there are examples explaining why pricing something should be adjusted. (Item of True Strike anyone?)
This comes from the base problem that some spells are way more powerful or diverse then other spells, even when at the same level. Fly for example is a way better spell then Fireball, but both are third level.
Short story: most prices are made up.

Also confusing is that the caster level listed in the item description has nothing to do with the caster level of the creator nor is any way shape or form a requirement to create the item. Once again this number is made up trying to bring some artificial number to show how strong the item is, regardless of its creator.

Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
The odd thing being you can be a level 5 caster, but still make Wings of Flying which itself has a CL 10...

In the case of Wings of Flying however, it is your calculation that is off. The +5 competence bonus comes from the fly spell self, which gives a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 the caster level. Because the item has a CL of 10 (not the creator, again) you gain a +5 bonus, for some reason this is called competence rather then untyped. Also the Wings are a Command word item, not a "Use-activated or continuous" item.
So by the Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Value we get: Command word ---> "Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp = 3 x 5 x 1,800 = 27,000. The wings are an example of normally priced item.
A tattoo would be indeed double the cost for having no space limitation.

(Also this proves the item is priced under CL5, but judged in power as CL10 and thus gets its fly bonus like it was CL10 spell, figure that one out.)

In the case of Robes of Infinite Twine, I cannot offer any insights. The price is clearly made on spot due the limitation of the item and the fact the base spell is used for two things, rather then the whole spell.

[Serafina]

First, keep this in mind:

Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

As for the wings, they use a mixture of Command-word (1800 multiplier) and continous/use-activated (multiplier based on original spell duration) price calculations. Plus the bonus to Fly-checks is actually due to the spell emulated and not a separate bonus.
3x5x1800x2=54000, which is exactly the price of wings of Flying. And the table is for determining a items Price - the Cost to craft is always half the price, but since the table is mostly for GMs making their own items it goes with Price.

That's actually nothing unusual - you should generally apply the multipliers given for continuous use to command-word items that don't have charges since they are effectively the same except they need a standard action to activate once. The exceptions are obviously those that create an instantaneous effect, though those should be rare anyway.


If you are making your own items, its generally best to emulating spell effects and if necessary combine multiple ones - if thats not possible, emulate existing magic items instead.



As for determining the caster level of an item: That is actually somewhat related to Wealth by Level (http://paizo.com/PRD/gamemastering.html) - since the Wings cost 54k gp, you can't generally afford them before level 10, so they are set at caster level 10. Of course thats just a ballpark estimate, but generally the price of an item is not affected by its caster level unless a higher caster level has major effects (say, 20D6 damage instead of 10D6) which isn't the case with Wings of Flying (a +5 instead of a +2 bonus to flight checks isnt worth all that much).

[mevans7]

Ok, cool, thanks for your help everyone. Obviously this will be a matter of, "Hey DM, I want to do this tattoo. I think it should cost this much because of this and this, and this rule here, and that item there" And I assume we'll just have to go back and forth on it. Either way, I think it'll be a fun way to add to this campaign, and it will give the other players a chance to be creative, and I think we'll collectively be able to come up with some interesting ideas. I'm gonna stick with it!

[Serafina]

At the very least you are able to do Casters Tattoos (always useful to have an emergency casting of a silent+stilled spell), Reservoir Tattoos (useful at lower levels to keep buff spells for a later fight), Spell Tattoos (while expensive, they are great for having an emergency spell in case of imprisonment etc.) and (from Magical Marketplaces) also Animal Totem Tattoos (gain a 5th-level Animal Totem druids Totem transformation, which includes flight, climb speed, extra senses and natural armor), Runeward Tattoos (+1 insight bonus to saves against one school of magic, plus ability to detect magic of that school. Pretty cheap too at only 1000 gp) and Serpentine Tattoos (free-action improved dirty trick 3/day when hitting someone with a monk/performance weapon/unarmed strike).

That's already pretty decent stuff, and while not necessarily the best use of a feat its still pretty solid. +1 Insight bonus to saves for just 4000 gp (one Runeward Tattoo for each magic school) that you can also apply to your party? A solid use for a feat.
It also compares somewhat favorably to taking Silent/Still spell as a feat - while you only get one use per day out of it (or more with more tattoos) you generally don't need it more often than that, and its spontaneous.
5 minute/day flight/climb/swim speed or blindsense or extra natural weapons is also pretty decent for 6000 gp.



Well, enough rambling. The nicest thing about this feat is that it provides magical items that you typically don't get in other ways (because the GM doesn't think about them, or because they are hard to put into a treasure chest) so compared to other item creation feats it offers something unique.