Forgotten Realms Question: Ao Spoke

[wayfare]

Hey All:

So i remember reading somewhere that, during the time of troubles, Lord Ao spoke and was heard over waterdeep. For the life o me, i cannot renember where i read it or what the overgod said.

Any scholars want to lend a hand?

[Alleran]

Hey All:

So i remember reading somewhere that, during the time of troubles, Lord Ao spoke and was heard over waterdeep. For the life o me, i cannot renember where i read it or what the overgod said.

Any scholars want to lend a hand?
It was in the third book of the Avatar trilogy, Waterdeep.

He basically told the gods that they were a bunch of crybabies and spoiled children, and that he was putting new rules in place now that he was taking them home.

[holywhippet]

Yeah, the gist of it was that the Gods had been ignoring their duties and not looking after their worshipers. So he changed the rules so that their power was based on the number and devotion of their worshipers.

[CyberThread]

He also got rid of thaco, he fixed all the rules issues.

[ShurikVch]

I wonder, is it affect all deities of Toril, or only those who were cast down?

I. e., if some god of the old suddenly come back, would he work by the old rules, or by new?

Also, elemental gods barely have any worshipers. And they are among the strongest...

[CyberThread]

Elemental "gods" were primordial , which have god like powers but otherwise don't need worshipers.

If this gets too deep, you need to brush up on your 4e FR lore, to understand the longer lasting changes. An yes the gods that came afterwords had to follow those rules, as it changed the system of worship not just gods.


http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Primordial

[holywhippet]

He also got rid of thaco, he fixed all the rules issues.

While it's true they use each major event in the FR to cover when each new edition of rules comes in I'd hardly called 3rd edition a fixed set of rules.

That was only in the FR anyway. IIRC the events of "Die Vecna Die" was the overall justification for 2nd edition to 3rd edition changes.

[CyberThread]

While it's true they use each major event in the FR to cover when each new edition of rules comes in I'd hardly called 3rd edition a fixed set of rules.

That was only in the FR anyway. IIRC the events of "Die Vecna Die" was the overall justification for 2nd edition to 3rd edition changes.

Yeah and boy did dnd book sales die. Then AO stepped in and said " I have gotten rid of thaco's but yet I see the mortals are still unhappy, I shall get rid of bland world dnd, as raven is not really given much detail, and give onto thou mortals, the realms as the main setting "

Then 4e happened, boy did he mess up that one.

[Mnemnosyne]

It applies to all the gods active in Faerun. Whether it applies to other gods in other regions of the world, or indeed on other inhabited bodies in the crystal sphere of Realmspace is unspecified. Al-Qadim has a somewhat different system of gods, and I do not recall any mentions of Ao there, although in Spelljammer i do believe it is mentioned that Ao is in charge of all of Realmspace. Kara-Tur and Maztica also have their own pantheons, and I do not know if it applies to those either - again, I do not recall any mentions of Ao in those products. It does apply to the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, since those are explicitly under Ao, following the same rules as the Faerunian pantheon, at least as far as their interaction with Realmspace is concerned.

Any god that suddenly returns to Faerun would indeed be under the same restrictions, just as Bane wound up under the same restrictions after his resurrection via Iyachtu Xvim.

[ShurikVch]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Primordial
This piece of knowledge belong to the madness which is by some cosmic mistake was called the 4th edition of D&D

As long as we care about it, there are no 4th edition, no Primordials, Akadi/Grumbar/Istishia/Kossuth are just greater deities of Elemental planes, Ubtao is just one more god, Asgorath is just another name of Io, Bazim-Gorag is just a slaad lord, and Dendar is just one more monster to fall under the Shivering Touch :smalltongue:

[CyberThread]

Am personally a fan of primordials it the lore work better. Why else would the elements who half of them dint give a Damn about worshippers work under ao new system.

[Mnemnosyne]

Don't forget that the elemental deities are multi-sphere entities. Their influence on Faerun is actually quite low because of their lack of worshipers there, but they span across many, many worlds and crystal spheres, therefore they are powerful despite local limitations on their power imposed by Ao. Ao cannot do anything about the actual power of a god that is not purely local to (at most) Realmspace. Any god with a presence in multiple spheres, such as Lolth, or the elemental deities, or even the entire Mulhorandi pantheon, is constrained by Ao's rules only as far as their interaction with Faerun goes.

[DeltaEmil]

The Elemental Deities had great influence/power on Faerûn, especially Kossuth with blasting Narfell when summoned by the Raumvatari, and his church becoming the main religion in Thay, but the three other elemental lords were of the same divine power. They were an exception to the 2e/3e decree that a deity's power on Faerûn is based on quantity and quality of the worshipers. 4e explains that this is because they were primordials all along, but even without the primordial origin, they still had greater deity powers in both Zakhara and Faerûn despite not caring at all for their worshiper's well-being on both continents.

[Alleran]

I wonder, is it affect all deities of Toril, or only those who were cast down?

I. e., if some god of the old suddenly come back, would he work by the old rules, or by new?

Also, elemental gods barely have any worshipers. And they are among the strongest...
It seems to have affected every god in the crystal sphere encompassing Realmspace (while they interact with Realmspace). Some gods remained major deities by virtue of their portfolios, which still seemed to involve a degree of status (e.g. Mystra, Kelemvor, Tyr, Shar). But their power was reliant on their followers.


Whether it applies to other gods in other regions of the world, or indeed on other inhabited bodies in the crystal sphere of Realmspace is unspecified. Al-Qadim has a somewhat different system of gods, and I do not recall any mentions of Ao there, although in Spelljammer i do believe it is mentioned that Ao is in charge of all of Realmspace. Kara-Tur and Maztica also have their own pantheons, and I do not know if it applies to those either - again, I do not recall any mentions of Ao in those products.
In the case of Kara-Tur, Mystra mentions in one book that there is a degree of "divine equivalency" between Faerunian gods and the Kara-Tur pantheon (basically that she and others are in said pantheon under a different face/name). Presumably it's the same for the gods elsewhere in Realmspace.


As long as we care about it, there are no 4th edition, no Primordials, Akadi/Grumbar/Istishia/Kossuth are just greater deities of Elemental planes, Ubtao is just one more god, Asgorath is just another name of Io, Bazim-Gorag is just a slaad lord, and Dendar is just one more monster to fall under the Shivering Touch :smalltongue:
Especially because I distinctly recall killing Bazim-Gorag in a 3e/3.5e adventure module. :smalltongue:

[CyberThread]

to put it in the words of the great mindflayer god....


Faerun, the land of gods and goddess that are in charge of the kitchen utensils and the training of the proper use of them.


And yes according to lore, it is a backwater trashheap of the crystal spheres, but is basicly the primodial ooze of places and with all the constant upheavals it is easy to make high powered things at the location.

[Phelix-Mu]

Never really understood Ao's logic here. While this change ostensibly gives the gods a stake in the welfare of the mortals, it also completely legitimizes ethnic cleansing and genocide among the worshipers of two rival gods as a means to improve their own faction. I would tend to think that the resulting tendency toward chaotic religious wars (even non-violent, mostly political ones between good-aligned gods competing for the same sphere of influence) would more than counteract any effort the gods would expend in favoring their own faction.

In short:

Ao: "Take care of your own, for their loss will diminish you."

Gods: "Wait. We can kill our rivals by encouraging followers to compete with other worshipers?"

Ao: "Huh?! How did you arrive at that from what I said?"

[CyberThread]

AO doesn't give a crap about such things....gods were ignoring the domains they were in charge of, making things unbalanced. How can you be the god of battle, but ignore your mortals so never incite them to battle.


Who cares if a race or two dies, this is AO a person who runs a sphere, his above good/evil/law/chaos.

Just wants things to function, and someone stole the tablets so made a double whammy.

[torrasque666]

He also got rid of thaco, he fixed all the rules issues.

Hey man, Thaco is my favorite goblin.

[CyberThread]

Hey man, Thaco is my favorite goblin.


thaco taco, where the lower you go the better it is, which is why the meat is next to the shell, not on the very top..

[Phelix-Mu]

AO doesn't give a crap about such things....gods were ignoring the domains they were in charge of, making things unbalanced. How can you be the god of battle, but ignore your mortals so never incite them to battle.


Who cares if a race or two dies, this is AO a person who runs a sphere, his above good/evil/law/chaos.

Just wants things to function, and someone stole the tablets so made a double whammy.

He wanted the gods to behave and look out for their mortals. Except the rule that he used seems to make it plausible for them to continue their infighting, but using mortals as proxies.

Moreover, it totally makes it possible for single wizards to go around and demote gods by murdering all of that gods followers (or the vast majority of them...a trivial act for any evil wizard wanting to make a name for himself).

Overall, I'm not sure how this actually helps things function as they were intended. I like the idea of responsible gods, but giving all gods a serious Achilles' heel doesn't accomplish that, in my mind.

[DeltaEmil]

He wanted the gods to behave and look out for their mortals. Except the rule that he used seems to make it plausible for them to continue their infighting, but using mortals as proxies.

Moreover, it totally makes it possible for single wizards to go around and demote gods by murdering all of that gods followers (or the vast majority of them...a trivial act for any evil wizard wanting to make a name for himself).

Overall, I'm not sure how this actually helps things function as they were intended. I like the idea of responsible gods, but giving all gods a serious Achilles' heel doesn't accomplish that, in my mind.Then those deities will have to protect their followers and make sure they aren't wiped out if he or she doesn't want to end as some big chunk of rock in the astral plane.

[Phelix-Mu]

Then those deities will have to protect their followers and make sure they aren't wiped out if he or she doesn't want to end as some big chunk of rock in the astral plane.

And now it's back to god v god instead of the gods just sponsoring followers. I dunno, it just seems to me that if the gods are going to screw around, there isn't going to be much stopping them, concern for followers notwithstanding.

If God A's followers start a war with God B's followers, then God B has to make a show of force to protect or oppose the other followers. Now, instead of fights between mortals and fights between gods, we have mortals squarely in the middle, as opposed to being senseless collateral like in the Time of Troubles.

Like I said, I just don't feel that making the system substantially more complicated and focused on micromanaging mortals is likely to get the gods to behave. Especially as some of the gods were displaying seriously crazy behavior to begin with (Cyric...Cyric! Darn it, Cyric, put down the knife and pay attention in class!).

[CyberThread]

Your confusing concepts. It wasen't about protecting anything, or crazy.

It was about being lazy. You are the god of something, be the god of that thing.

[Clistenes]

Elemental "gods" were primordial , which have god like powers but otherwise don't need worshipers.

If this gets too deep, you need to brush up on your 4e FR lore, to understand the longer lasting changes. An yes the gods that came afterwords had to follow those rules, as it changed the system of worship not just gods.


http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Primordial

That whole Primordial stuff didn't exist before 4e. In 2nd and 3rd edition the Elemental Gods were just deities like any other one. They may not need mortal worship, since they aren't properly speaking faerunian deities, or it may be that their planar, elemental, outsider and genesai worshippers are enough to keep them going.

[ShurikVch]

They may not need mortal worship, since they aren't properly speaking faerunian deities, or it may be that their planar, elemental, outsider and genesai worshippers are enough to keep them going. All elemental deities have their one cults, such as Kossuth's Black Flame Zealots
The thing is - they all are greater deities! :smallsigh:
Are Kossuth's really have that much more numerous followers than, say, Lolth (intermediate deity), or Doresain (demigod)? :smallconfused:
But I have strong suspicion: they still work by the old rules! Let's take Time of Troubles, for example. Where were Kossuth and the rest of them? Because nobody knows (AFAIK), and the Lord of Flame is anything but subtle, I think it's safe to surmise - they weren't relegated and stay on their respective Planes

[Coidzor]

Never really understood Ao's logic here. While this change ostensibly gives the gods a stake in the welfare of the mortals, it also completely legitimizes ethnic cleansing and genocide among the worshipers of two rival gods as a means to improve their own faction. I would tend to think that the resulting tendency toward chaotic religious wars (even non-violent, mostly political ones between good-aligned gods competing for the same sphere of influence) would more than counteract any effort the gods would expend in favoring their own faction.

Well, they were *already* doing it anyway, so, y'know, they didn't really need it "legitimized" XD

[Amphetryon]

Well, they were *already* doing it anyway, so, y'know, they didn't really need it "legitimized" XD

He was also working at the behest of HIS over-deity, as I recall, so Ao's motives were not necessarily his own.

Not to mention, the motives of deities are often portrayed as inscrutable to mere mortals.