Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?

[heavyfuel]

I've been reading the ToB book in order to create some Initiators NPC and after reading all 3 base classes I'm pretty sure that the Crusader is the least synergetic of the 3.

He's a tank that has a d10, he gets heavy armor proficiency but benefits from a decent Dex (thicket of blades + Combat Reflexes), Stone Power gives him effectively DR 10/- but plenty of his strikes require the attack to actually hit, but he now has 25% less chance to do so. He gets Cha bonus to Will but it's arguably the worse of the mental stats. Yes, it can be really abused by RAW, but I'm yet to meet a DM that lets Diplomacy and Bluff really get out of hand... Int gives you skill pts, and Wis boosts Will and perception skills but you can't even the Cha with your smite attack because its uses per day is freaking ridiculous.

Also, Devoted Spirit seems to be the worse of the unique schools (especially since it can't destroy the sun). But seriously... Strike of Righteous Vitality is way weaker when compared to Strike of Perfect Clarity which is already pretty weak. Normal attack + Heal* (*maybe) vs bonus 100 damage pretty much falls into the theory that it's better to avoid damage by killing your foes quickly than by actually healing in combat.

Can anyone prove me wrong?

[Aegis013]

I disagree with your assessment, but in the end it's just opinions.

The baseline Crusader isn't the strongest of the ToB classes (that goes to the Warblade), however, Crusader does have the highest optimization ceiling. If you look into the Idiot Crusader concept, you'll see just how ripe for abuse the Crusader's recovery mechanic really is.

As far as Devoted Spirit being the worst of the unique schools, it's my opinion that it's actually, overall, one of the strongest of the unique schools at its baseline. It provides mundane (Ex) healing while allowing the Crusader to also deal damage, providing one of the most effective combat healing methods in the game. It's biggest asset though are its stances, which are unfortunately easy to put aside seeing Crusader's extremely poorly thought out stance progression. However from the first level to the end, Devoted Spirit stances are typically some of the best in ToB. Martial Study allows unlimited out of combat healing, Iron Guard's Glare actually allows you to give an enemy a reason to attack you, Thicket of Blades is a must-have for melee lock-down, Aura of Chaos when utilized with large dice pool damage (such as sneak attack) can substantially increase average damage, Aura of Perfect Order provides a way to mitigate RNG, something optimizers will tell you is extremely important for creating a very powerful character, and Stance of Immortal Fortitude, which is just really powerful right on the tin.

I also disagree with your assessment of Righteous Strike of Vitality, and I believe it's one of the more powerful 9th level maneuvers. Typically healing in combat is considered a waste of an action unless it's the spell Heal. Heal generally provides enough HP boost/status effect relief that it can be a useful choice over damage. Strike of Righteous Vitality not only lets you cast Heal, it does so as an Ex ability, and lets you damage your opponent simultaneously.

Now, these are my opinions, and they're no more or less valid than yours. But with the Crusader's optimization ceiling being the highest of the bunch, it's hard for me to say it is the weakest.

[HammeredWharf]

I'd say Crusaders probably have a lower optimization ceiling than other ToB classes, at least without RKV and TO tricks like the idiot/d2 Crusader. If you're in a high-op campaign where rocket tagging for 600 DPR in melee is the norm, some healing won't help you. However, in a mid-op campaign, they're a very solid class. I've played with them and DMed for them and they just don't die. Currently, I'm DMing for a party of tier 3 characters and the party Crusader can facetank opponents that would kill other party members in a single round.

[weckar]

I have to agree with Aegis013, for the most part. The Crusader does seem to have the highest ceiling, but also the lowest floor (not that that says much for a ToB class). Your assessment of CHA being the worst mental stat is largely true for a combat expert, but I feel like the class ability exists exactly to offset that and make it weigh equally to wis. And, in my personal opinion, CHA has nicer skills attached than Wis.

[Jeff the Green]

Also, Devoted Spirit seems to be the worse of the unique schools (especially since it can't destroy the sun). But seriously... Strike of Righteous Vitality is way weaker when compared to Strike of Perfect Clarity which is already pretty weak. Normal attack + Heal* (*maybe) vs bonus 100 damage pretty much falls into the theory that it's better to avoid damage by killing your foes quickly than by actually healing in combat.

Can anyone prove me wrong?

Forget Devoted Spirit's healing. This is the school that lets you hit enemies so hard they can't attack your allies, make AoOs even on 5-foot steps (and possibly against tumbling enemies), make all attacks against anyone other than you take a fairly large penalty, and take 11 on any roll. The healing just makes it so that when you do get hit (it's your job, after all) it doesn't put you down. These are all things that make crusader the only viable tank in the game.

When you add in White Raven it just gets better.

I'll grant you that natively crusaders have somewhat dissynergistic ability score requirements, but remember that ToB is very dip friendly, so dipping Marshal for Charisma to initiative, Bard for Charisma to Attack, or something similar is absolutely feasible. And of course you don't get a ton out of Charisma natively, allowing you to focus entirely on the physical stats if you prefer.

[HammeredWharf]

You can dip into Warblade or Swordsage and almost forget about the Charisma bonus to Will saves. Not being able to access Diamond Mind is, IMO, Crusader's greatest weakness relative to other ToB classes.

[heavyfuel]

I disagree with your assessment, but in the end it's just opinions.

The baseline Crusader isn't the strongest of the ToB classes (that goes to the Warblade), however, Crusader does have the highest optimization ceiling. If you look into the Idiot Crusader concept, you'll see just how ripe for abuse the Crusader's recovery mechanic really is.

As far as Devoted Spirit being the worst of the unique schools, it's my opinion that it's actually, overall, one of the strongest of the unique schools at its baseline. It provides mundane (Ex) healing while allowing the Crusader to also deal damage, providing one of the most effective combat healing methods in the game. It's biggest asset though are its stances, which are unfortunately easy to put aside seeing Crusader's extremely poorly thought out stance progression. However from the first level to the end, Devoted Spirit stances are typically some of the best in ToB. Martial Study allows unlimited out of combat healing, Iron Guard's Glare actually allows you to give an enemy a reason to attack you, Thicket of Blades is a must-have for melee lock-down, Aura of Chaos when utilized with large dice pool damage (such as sneak attack) can substantially increase average damage, Aura of Perfect Order provides a way to mitigate RNG, something optimizers will tell you is extremely important for creating a very powerful character, and Stance of Immortal Fortitude, which is just really powerful right on the tin.

I also disagree with your assessment of Righteous Strike of Vitality, and I believe it's one of the more powerful 9th level maneuvers. Typically healing in combat is considered a waste of an action unless it's the spell Heal. Heal generally provides enough HP boost/status effect relief that it can be a useful choice over damage. Strike of Righteous Vitality not only lets you cast Heal, it does so as an Ex ability, and lets you damage your opponent simultaneously.

Now, these are my opinions, and they're no more or less valid than yours. But with the Crusader's optimization ceiling being the highest of the bunch, it's hard for me to say it is the weakest.

You make some good points and the only ne I trully disagree is the Idiot Crusader one (and the eventual d2 Crusader argument as well). As I see, both of these builds are TO and if you want to use this argument, then Paladin 1 is the strongest build in the game. Abusable mechanics don't make for solid classes, they make cheddar filled 5ft cubes of meat with sharp edges that no sane DM would allow :smallamused:.

I also think that (Ex) healing is overrated. Out of combat healing is really cheap and during combat there are better things to do. The only really good use of it would be inside and AMF. While good, I don't think it justifies being dubbed "one of the strongest of the unique schools".

While I wholeheartedly agree that the stances are awesome Crusaders get so few stances and since you're only able to use one at a time you're forced with choices that you sometimes can't afford to make. Thicket of Blades or Ironguard's glare? At lower levels that -4 on attacks can pretty much be the difference between life and death, but dishing out extra AoO can be too. While Aura of Law is good, "taking 11" once per turn on an attack only forces more choices between which stance to use. Protect your allies vs deal more damage. You have to choose between protecting your allies and killing your foes, but since you're a tank, you should choose the former, making the latter less useful. If what you want is to kill everyone quickly, the Warblade and Swordsage are better suited for you. Also, both of these classes are more "selfish" per se. They pretty much only need to focus on themselves during combat and what benefits themselves the most to do well in a fight (this last bit should be taken with a grain of salt of course)

I wouldn't call our campaign "high op", but it's definitely "above average op". Last time I played I had Duskblade dealing ~250 DPR at lv 16. While not as optimized as some characters I've seem in the forum such as the ubercharger or the mailman, I'm pretty sure he was dealing more damage than what was expected of him by the designers. So, healing 150 (maybe) at a minimum lv of 17 isn't really wonderful. It's decent, but doesn't really qualify for "best maneuver"


I'd say Crusaders probably have a lower optimization ceiling than other ToB classes, at least without RKV and TO tricks like the idiot/d2 Crusader. If you're in a high-op campaign where rocket tagging for 600 DPR in melee is the norm, some healing won't help you. However, in a mid-op campaign, they're a very solid class. I've played with them and DMed for them and they just don't die. Currently, I'm DMing for a party of tier 3 characters and the party Crusader can facetank opponents that would kill other party members in a single round.

Yes, it seems people that say crusaders are OP are the same people that use WR tactics to get infinite attacks per round.

As for rocket tag, it's as I replyed to Aegis. I wouldn't call our campaign "high op", but it's definitely "above average op". Last time I played I had Duskblade dealing ~250 DPR at lv 16. While not as optimized as some characters I've seem in the forum such as the ubercharger or the mailman, I'm pretty sure he was dealing more damage than what was expected of him by the designers. So healing 150 (maybe) at a minimum lv of 17 isn't really wonderful. It's decent, but doesn't really qualify for "best maneuver"


Your assessment of CHA being the worst mental stat is largely true for a combat expert, but I feel like the class ability exists exactly to offset that and make it weigh equally to wis. And, in my personal opinion, CHA has nicer skills attached than Wis.

That is true, but it's also true that the Crusader is supposed to be a Combat Expert/Tank. If you want to be the party's face, there are tons of WAY better classes for that... Heck, Warblades probably are a better face due to their increased skill pts and Know. (local) which gives them bonuses to Gather Info.


Forget Devoted Spirit's healing. This is the school that lets you hit enemies so hard they can't attack your allies, make AoOs even on 5-foot steps (and possibly against tumbling enemies), make all attacks against anyone other than you take a fairly large penalty, and take 11 on any roll. The healing just makes it so that when you do get hit (it's your job, after all) it doesn't put you down. These are all things that make crusader the only viable tank in the game.

When you add in White Raven it just gets better.

I'll grant you that natively crusaders have somewhat dissynergistic ability score requirements, but remember that ToB is very dip friendly, so dipping Marshal for Charisma to initiative, Bard for Charisma to Attack, or something similar is absolutely feasible. And of course you don't get a ton out of Charisma natively, allowing you to focus entirely on the physical stats if you prefer.

Only works if you actually hit, which means Stone Power probably won't be used. AoO are only provoked from you, which means you need high-ish Dex. Can't be used with Thicket of Blades.

Warblades also have White Raven and are arguably better at using it what with Song of the WR and enough skill points to get some ranks in Perform.

The Cha synergy really becomes pretty useless because they're so MAD with needing Str, Dex, Con, (some) Int and Cha.


Not being able to access Diamond Mind is, IMO, Crusader's greatest weakness relative to other ToB classes.

I thought about this but totaly forgot to put it in the OP. For the cost of one readied maneuver the Warblade can have all of his saves decent. Good Fort, Ok Refx and Awesome Will!


----------------------------------

All in all, I still think Crusaders are weaker than the other 2 classes. While definitely stronger than a similarly optimized fighter and still less MAD than the paladin, I haven't shaken the idea that the Warblade is superior in almost every aspect and that the Swordsage is fluffier and more versatile

But thanks the answers everyone!

[Flickerdart]

You make some good points and the only ne I trully disagree is the Idiot Crusader one (and the eventual d2 Crusader argument as well). As I see, both of these builds are TO and if you want to use this argument, then Paladin 1 is the strongest build in the game.
D2 is definitely TO, but in what way is Idiot Crusader even in the same ballpark as the build that deals infinity damage?

[The Insanity]

Even if it were true, Crusader is still one of the better classes out there.

[Psyren]

@OP:

I guess so? I mean, "worst ToB class" sounds to me like "lightest sumo wrestler" or something; technically it may be true but the range is pretty small.

And even that analogy doesn't quite work because you then have to define "worst at what?" If it comes to "tanking," inasmuch as you can do that in D&D, the Crusader is superior to the Warblade in that regard, both in terms of surviving himself and in terms of keeping the physically weaker members of the group alive.

[Aegis013]

You make some good points and the only ne I trully disagree is the Idiot Crusader one (and the eventual d2 Crusader argument as well). As I see, both of these builds are TO and if you want to use this argument, then Paladin 1 is the strongest build in the game. Abusable mechanics don't make for solid classes, they make cheddar filled 5ft cubes of meat with sharp edges that no sane DM would allow :smallamused:.
...
...While Aura of Law is good, "taking 11" once per turn on an attack only forces more choices between which stance to use. ...

... So, healing 150 (maybe) at a minimum lv of 17 isn't really wonderful. It's decent, but doesn't really qualify for "best maneuver"


As I qualified my previous post with, opinions are opinions. Yours are perfectly valid. I take into account optimization ceiling (including TO tricks) when I consider the strength of a class. I only have a few minor rebuttals.


D2 is definitely TO, but in what way is Idiot Crusader even in the same ballpark as the build that deals infinity damage?

This is my sentiment. D2 Crusader is definitely TO, but I don't think Idiot Crusader is TO unless you use a few particular abuses; White Raven Tactics on self being the big one. Most DMs won't let you do that anyway in my experience. I have, however, been allowed to play an Idiot Crusader in an actual game, considering that the trick takes some time to come online, isn't overly powerful compared to the optimization level at which the groups I've played with operate.

As far as Aura of Perfect Order is concerned, using it on an attack is, in my opinion, one of the weakest options for it. Unless you're intimately aware of your enemy's AC/defenses so you can optimize your Power Attack/Stone Power expense and guarantee a hit on the second iterative, I find the most useful ways to utilize "take 11" is on saving throws and other checks.

On Strike of Righteous Vitality, healing 150 hp would be pretty weak. That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking probably landing a solid 50 damage, healing someone 150 hp, and removing ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned from yourself or an ally. Some of those conditions are nasty. A good deal of them will be utilized (I find especially ability damage) in battles at the level where Strike of Righteous Vitality is available.

In the end though, it's still all just opinions. And I agree that Warblade at baseline is the clear top dog in ToB, I'm just not sure if Swordsage is stronger than Crusader. I find them quite even.

[heavyfuel]

D2 is definitely TO, but in what way is Idiot Crusader even in the same ballpark as the build that deals infinity damage?

A build that can "cast" Heal 99% of the time (especially if you neglect power attack and stone power and use Aura of Perfect Order) and can also abuse WR Tactics to get infinite turns (which would also mean Infinity Damage), though you don't really need Idiot Crusader for that, is something I would qualify as TO.


Even if it were true, Crusader is still one of the better classes out there.


@OP:

I guess so? I mean, "worst ToB class" sounds to me like "lightest sumo wrestler" or something; technically it may be true but the range is pretty small.

And even that analogy doesn't quite work because you then have to define "worst at what?" If it comes to "tanking," inasmuch as you can do that in D&D, the Crusader is superior to the Warblade in that regard, both in terms of surviving himself and in terms of keeping the physically weaker members of the group alive.

You're both right. The Crusader is definitely on the upper half of classes. It's just that, when compared to the other 2, he seems underwhelming to say the least. Like I said in my OP, his class features lack synergy unlike the Warblade's or the Swordsage's. And while he's a good (likely the best) tank, I feel there are very few classes out there that really need a tank. We all know you can't really kill a wizard, even at lower levels, unless you pit him and his party against a level inappropriate encounter. He also doesn't have the skill points required to be the face of the party or do anything skill related for that matter (open locks and disable traps for example). He can't easily access spells by himself to boost his versatility.

All in all, he's really good a tanking and that's pretty much it.


As I qualified my previous post with, opinions are opinions. Yours are perfectly valid. I take into account optimization ceiling (including TO tricks) when I consider the strength of a class. I only have a few minor rebuttals.

As far as Aura of Perfect Order is concerned, using it on an attack is, in my opinion, one of the weakest options for it. Unless you're intimately aware of your enemy's AC/defenses so you can optimize your Power Attack/Stone Power expense and guarantee a hit on the second iterative, I find the most useful ways to utilize "take 11" is on saving throws and other checks.

On Strike of Righteous Vitality, healing 150 hp would be pretty weak. That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking probably landing a solid 50 damage, healing someone 150 hp, and removing ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned from yourself or an ally. Some of those conditions are nasty. A good deal of them will be utilized (I find especially ability damage) in battles at the level where Strike of Righteous Vitality is available.

In the end though, it's still all just opinions. And I agree that Warblade at baseline is the clear top dog in ToB, I'm just not sure if Swordsage is stronger than Crusader. I find them quite even.

Wow. I completely read past the last line of Aura of Perfect Order... For some reason I thought it was attacks only. Oops... Yeah, taking 11 once per turn for anything you want is way better than just choosing an attack.

Yeah, Strike of Righteous Vitality is good, but it's also something that your party's cleric got 6 levels ago... I never said it wasn't useful. It's just that, again, it feels underwhelming at lv17.

[Psyren]

We all know you can't really kill a wizard, even at lower levels, unless you pit him and his party against a level inappropriate encounter.

Not everyone who plays a wizard in this game is Tippy. I would say that the percentage of folks who can actually play a wizard to its potential in a real-life game is much smaller than you think. Not to mention that there are counters that work well against Wizards that won't actually raise the difficulty for the other people in the game, like dispels and AMF.



All in all, he's really good a tanking and that's pretty much it.


First off - with Cha synergy, 4+Int skills and two of the social skills they make a decent face too. Second, they have a very unique form of healing that can save a group's life in a high lethality/survival game. where the trees aren't raining cure wands.

[Flickerdart]

A build that can "cast" Heal 99% of the time (especially if you neglect power attack and stone power and use Aura of Perfect Order)
Heal every turn isn't TO, because you can't heal past your max HP and anything properly TO can one-shot you.



and can also abuse WR Tactics to get infinite turns (which would also mean Infinity Damage), though you don't really need Idiot Crusader for that, is something I would qualify as TO.
Self-targeting with WRT is abusing WRT, not abusing Crusader. Playing a Warblade isn't TO just because you can IHS the sun.

[Aegis013]

Yeah, Strike of Righteous Vitality is good, but it's also something that your party's cleric got 6 levels ago... I never said it wasn't useful. It's just that, again, it feels underwhelming at lv17.

Yeah, but if we're comparing Strike of Righteous Vitality to other 9th level maneuvers, or we're comparing Crusader to other ToB classes, Cleric has nothing to do with it. All of the maneuvers feel lackluster next to my Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix's abilities, but I don't see how it's relevant to the topic.

Still though... opinions. I don't think anybody is going to convince you that Crusader isn't the weakest ToB class. I think you've already made up your mind.

[Feint's End]

Not everyone who plays a wizard in this game is Tippy. I would say that the percentage of folks who can actually play a wizard to its potential in a real-life game is much smaller than you think. Not to mention that there are counters that work well against Wizards that won't actually raise the difficulty for the other people in the game, like dispels and AMF.



First off - with Cha synergy, 4+Int skills and two of the social skills they make a decent face too. Second, they have a very unique form of healing that can save a group's life in a high lethality/survival game. where the trees aren't raining cure wands.

I support many of these statements. Up till today I always thought of warblade as being the lowest tier of the 3 ("weakest if you want to call it this way").

It is true that generally charisma is a bad combat stat but so is intelligence. Also devoted spirit is in my personal feeling one of the strongest disciplines. It has nice way of healing plus other supportive tricks but it also has one of the best damage abilities at early levels namely divine surge. 8d8 damage is nothing to sneeze at.

Swordsages rule supreme but crusaders at least make an attempt in getting out of combat stuff and warblade are generally agreed to be tier 4 instead of 3.

[heavyfuel]

Not everyone who plays a wizard in this game is Tippy. I would say that the percentage of folks who can actually play a wizard to its potential in a real-life game is much smaller than you think. Not to mention that there are counters that work well against Wizards that won't actually raise the difficulty for the other people in the game, like dispels and AMF.

First off - with Cha synergy, 4+Int skills and two of the social skills they make a decent face too. Second, they have a very unique form of healing that can save a group's life in a high lethality/survival game. where the trees aren't raining cure wands.

You don't need to be Tippy to get Abrupt Jaunt (or whatever it's called). It's right there on the ACFs list haha. But it's true, not everyone plays God / Batman / Control / whatever wizard.

As for survival games, it's a point I honestly hadn't thought about. I was thinking about the standard campaign where you get recommended WBL and magic is aplenty.


Heal every turn isn't TO, because you can't heal past your max HP and anything properly TO can one-shot you.

Self-targeting with WRT is abusing WRT, not abusing Crusader. Playing a Warblade isn't TO just because you can IHS the sun.

I always thought that IHS the sun wasn't really possible, even by RAW. But that's beside the point. The point is that, as far as I know, the Crusader alone can abuse WRT. By this token, a d2 Crusader would be abusing Imbued Healing and Aura of Chaos. A fighter/cleric/RKV can become a d2 "Crusader", but that doesn't make the d2 Crusader (no quotes) less TO.


Yeah, but if we're comparing Strike of Righteous Vitality to other 9th level maneuvers, or we're comparing Crusader to other ToB classes, Cleric has nothing to do with it. All of the maneuvers feel lackluster next to my Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix's abilities, but I don't see how it's relevant to the topic.

Still though... opinions. I don't think anybody is going to convince you that Crusader isn't the weakest ToB class. I think you've already made up your mind.

That's a good point. Pitting ToB against Tier 1 classes isn't really a fair argument.

As for changing my mind, there have been plenty of really good arguments in favor of the Crusader. While I still think that the Warblade takes the cake I'm pretty sure that the Crusader is on par with the Swordsage. A different fluff and a different focus mechanically, but on par nonetheless. I still think he's the MADest of the 3, and less synergetic, but his abilities do compensate for his shortcomings.

[cosmonuts]

Sworsages are the best ToB class? This is new to me. Explain pls.

MAD, poor refresh, subpar Desert Wind school, no Iron Heart...

I must be building my swordsages wrong.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Unique Shadow Hand access, along with the huge pile of maneuvers known, makes them the best utility initiators. It also makes a great dip, arguably better than Warblade, but obviously it's for different types of classes.

OP: I agree that Crusader is the most limited ToB class, but if you want to play a control-type character you want at least two levels for Thicket of Blades.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Swordsage is the weakest ToB class. MAD, medium BAB, lowest HD, feat starved (no bonus; needs one just to function properly), and is lacking all of the best maneuvers. Remember, quality beats quantity. I'd take White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge over *any* ten maneuvers from Desert Wind.

Crusader is possibly the best class. The base itself isn't as sexy as Warblade, but the real power is the recovery mechanic (no action cost) and how powerfully it combines with adept prestige classes (each readied maneuver also boosts granted by +1), and that's the one thing you carry with you when you jump to a PrC. It also is the natural entry point for the strongest class in all of ToB (Ruby Knight Vindicator), and can reasonably easily get into the other best ones (JPM, Eternal Blade). Devoted Spirit is one of the better disciplines, with a great mix of all three maneuver types and some of the best stances in the entire book. The only reason Warblade is probably better is just because it gets WR Tactics *and* IH Surge. Well, the moronic class stance progression hurts a bit, too.

[Immabozo]

Stone Power gives him effectively DR 10/-

Just a thought, DR 10 is WAY better. 10 temp HP works once, against one attack and that's it.

DR 10 would be amazing and you could have a small army attacking you and effectively have +NI hp, because 10 is taken off each attack.

Throw in Psicrystal affinity and share pain (even without vigor) and, effectively, have hardness 8 and DR 10/-. THAT is powerful. But +10 hp once, every round, is far inferior.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Swordsage is the weakest ToB class. MAD, medium BAB, lowest HD, feat starved (no bonus; needs one just to function properly), and is lacking all of the best maneuvers. Remember, quality beats quantity. I'd take White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge over *any* ten maneuvers from Desert Wind.I've never played a swordsage who took more than 1 desert wind maneuver. Pointing out that they have access to a bad school is irrelevant. Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and (a bit of) Tiger Claw are relevant. I agree the chassis is weak though. Again, it makes a better dip, where you're not relying on strikes. You're relying on utility, mobility and defensive maneuvers to complement your full attacks, so it doesn't matter as much if/when they run out.
Crusader is possibly the best class. The base itself isn't as sexy as Warblade, but the real power is the recovery mechanic (no action cost) and how powerfully it combines with adept prestige classes (each readied maneuver also boosts granted by +1)I can't seem to find the page source on PrC advancement... that definitely would have helped in a previous campaign. In any event I agree that Crusaders have the best recovery mechanic, but their maneuver access is pretty slim, especially when you look beyond strikes. No Diamond Mind counters, paltry low-level utility, in exchange for some low level healing... Excluding RKV I'd take Warblade over Crusader any day.

[Svata]

Yes, but that's like saying telepaths are the worst psions.

[Karnith]

I can't seem to find the page source on PrC advancement... that definitely would have helped in a previous campaign.
Per the Tome of Battle, p. 96:

[...]If you choose to add the maneuver readied to a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver you can ready.

[heavyfuel]

Just a thought, DR 10 is WAY better. 10 temp HP works once, against one attack and that's it.

DR 10 would be amazing and you could have a small army attacking you and effectively have +NI hp, because 10 is taken off each attack.

I know that. Rereading my OP I noticed it didn't come across as so... It's just that in one of the handbooks it's described as such and I even saw it a few times in some boards. But regardless, it seems every single person thinks this feat is THE feat to be taken by crusaders, but losing attack bonus for some temp HP when there so many maneuvers that require you actually hit, having the maximum amount of BAB capped at a ridiculous 5 and with no way to negate the penalty (like Shock Trooper), the feat seems sub par to say the least.

[cosmonuts]

Can someone show me a well-built swordsage who could contribute in a practically optimized T3 party?

This is my only swordsage sheet so far. Help me improve pls. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=903633)

edit

Excuse my maneuvers if they don't add up correctly. I just threw this together to be approximately what a swordsage should look like at level 8.

[Jeff the Green]

As for survival games, it's a point I honestly hadn't thought about. I was thinking about the standard campaign where you get recommended WBL and magic is aplenty.

Another, admittedly rare, situation where a crusader's healing is very useful is in the Mournlands. Other than those maneuvers, your options are psionics (and fewer classes have UPD than UMD), retreating to extra dimensional space (which a DM may rule doesn't work), and goodberries and their wine (which are kind of pitiful). In this case, a crusader is literally a lifesaver all the time.

[Red Fel]

We've covered the class' ability to soak and tank, its automatic maneuver recovery and its easy-entry into powerful PrCs. But I'd like to emphasize the healing (which others have mentioned).

This is a point that cannot be emphasized enough - Devoted Spirit is one of the only sources of combat healing that works as advertised. Let me be clear - other sources of healing can be used in combat. But that's generally frowned upon on these forums, and for good reason - it's an inefficient waste of actions and resources, which exposes you to needless risk. Any turn spent healing in combat could better be spent killing the thing that's attacking you, thus obviating the need to heal at all.

Devoted Spirit does both, does them well, can do them all day, and can do so without triggering attacks of opportunity.

Crusader is the only one of the three ToB base classes that gets native access to Devoted Spirit.

I think this is really worth repeating. The Crusader is the only class in the game that gets native, immediate access to the most efficient combat healing effects in the game.

Complain about the class as you like. But Devoted Spirit healing is just that good.

[Adverb]

I think this is really worth repeating. The Crusader is the only class in the game that gets native, immediate access to the most efficient combat healing effects in the game.

Complain about the class as you like. But Devoted Spirit healing is just that good.

It also combines incredibly well with the delayed damage pool, and Stone Power combines even better. Also, Crusaders literally get madder when you hit them, which is sweet.

[gomipile]

Another, admittedly rare, situation where a crusader's healing is very useful is in the Mournlands. Other than those maneuvers, your options are psionics (and fewer classes have UPD than UMD), retreating to extra dimensional space (which a DM may rule doesn't work), and goodberries and their wine (which are kind of pitiful). In this case, a crusader is literally a lifesaver all the time.

And Consecrate. The component cost of Consecrate gives a pretty good value if many healing spells are needed at that spot during its (very long) duration.

[heavyfuel]

Another, admittedly rare, situation where a crusader's healing is very useful is in the Mournlands. Other than those maneuvers, your options are psionics (and fewer classes have UPD than UMD), retreating to extra dimensional space (which a DM may rule doesn't work), and goodberries and their wine (which are kind of pitiful). In this case, a crusader is literally a lifesaver all the time.


And Consecrate. The component cost of Consecrate gives a pretty good value if many healing spells are needed at that spot during its (very long) duration.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is Mournlands and Consecrate? And why do they make the Crusader's healing better?

[Necroticplague]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is Mournlands and Consecrate? And why do they make the Crusader's healing better?

Mournlands are a place where almost all forms of magic healing don't work.

[Jeff the Green]

Mournlands are a place where almost all forms of magic healing don't work.

More specifically, it's a region of Eberron that used to be magitech central, but due to a magical catastrophe is slowly transforming Eberron into Athas is a wasteland inhabited by all kinds of monstrosities and a warforged nation (since they can repair themselves without Conjuration (healing) spells), and where there's an extraordinary wealth of magical artifacts to be had, but which is incredibly hazardous due to said lack of healing.

[Starbuck_II]

It also combines incredibly well with the delayed damage pool, and Stone Power combines even better. Also, Crusaders literally get madder when you hit them, which is sweet.

The new Pathfinder Path of War sadly has no Crusader type class. No Delayed damage pool.
The Guardian isn't the same.

[gooddragon1]

In case it wasn't mentioned before:

a 1 level dip in crusader as your 9th level can give you the ability (as a swift action) to occasionally grant an extra action to an ally with white raven tactics. That's a nice use of an otherwise largely unused action.

In addition, martial spirit stance can potentially be used for infinite out of combat healing as an Ex at will on even constructs and undead. So at the very least they are extremely dippable.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Can someone show me a well-built swordsage who could contribute in a practically optimized T3 party?

This is my only swordsage sheet so far. Help me improve pls. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=903633)

edit

Excuse my maneuvers if they don't add up correctly. I just threw this together to be approximately what a swordsage should look like at level 8.I normally dip ToB for one reason or another, instead of going full progression. A well-timed Swordsage 2 dip, for instance, gives a sneaky character +2d6 sneak attack, WIS to AC, diamond mind save counters, and [Ex] teleportation. If you're going for something approximating full initiator progression, I would still dip a little bit, like so:

Strongheart Halfling (or Human if multiclass penalties are enforced) Unarmed Swordsage 1/Sneak Attack Drow Fighter 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/USS +6
Feats (2 flaws): Darkstalker, Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Craven, Snap Kick
Free Devotion Feats: Knowledge, Travel, Law (or devo of your choice)
Abilities: DEX>>WIS>CON>INT>CHA>>STR (so a 32 pb might look like 8 str 18 dex 14 con 10 int 14 wis 10 cha before race or levelup or other modifiers)
Key maneuvers: Assassin's Stance, Shadow Garrote, various Diamond Mind save counters; in general prioritize Shadow Hand strikes as you'll get another +2 to damage.

Your strategy is to hide in the shadows (get continuous collar of umbral metamorphosis ASAP), activate travel devotion, and kill things immediately with extreme prejudice.
Your buffed full attack when sneak attacking is something like so: Unarmed strikes +16/+16/+16/+11, 1d8+3d6+20 (full attack by swift moving with travel devotion)
If you'd prefer to tumble in, use strikes, then travel devotion back into the shadows, it looks like this: Unarmed Strike +18/+18, 1d8+3d6+20 (+strike effect on first attack)

In lesser fights you probably won't have law devotion up, so that's +3 less attack. Your AC isn't all that hot, so stealth and offense are your main defenses.

[T.G. Oskar]

I believe that most of what had to be said about the Crusader was said already, but I'd like to point out the big picture, rather than have all arguments spread out.

If we are to compare the Crusader exclusively to its ToB counterparts (and not to the PHB classes, for example), the Crusader ends up equal or perhaps better than the Warblade, without counting maneuvers. The Crusader isn't just comprised of its maneuvers, much as the Warblade isn't comprised only of its maneuvers. It has the same skill points as the Warblade (4 + Int), which is almost universally recognized as a fair amount of skill points for any class not focused on Intelligence. Now, the Warblade has a slight focus on Intelligence because of its class features, which is the reason why the Crusader will probably end up with fewer skill points than its other two counterparts. The Warblade has better HD and a better Reflex save (as it adds Intelligence in addition to Dexterity), but the Crusader has better Will (adds Charisma in addition to Wisdom), better weapon and armor choices (I'd like to remind that the Crusader has full martial weapon proficiency; the Warblade lacks access to martial ranged weapons, which limits its choice of ranged weapons). So, aside from the higher amount of skill points, the Warblade and the Crusader have a roughly equal chassis.

However, once going to the class features, things differ. As mentioned, the Crusader has the best recovery mechanic, but its choice of maneuvers is somewhat limited (and left to fortune, though more often than not you'll be choosing Extra Granted Maneuver which further speeds your recovery and gives you access to the desired maneuver faster), and the order in which the Crusader gains stances works against it. The Crusader has as its key mechanic the Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike combination, which makes it a fairly decent hitter early on and a still reasonably good one later on: a +6 to attack and damage by holding 30 points of damage from reaching your hit points for one round may not seem as much, but the bonus to attack involves a better attack roll which results in a better return with Power Attack, or a potential second hit; not to mention the bonus to damage applies to virtually every maneuver that deals HP damage. Mettle isn't anything to laugh at; it's the counterpart to Evasion that applies to attacks such as, say, Disintegrate, Finger of Death or Phantasmal Killer, which can still screw you if you fail them. The Warblade has less dead levels (all ToB classes have dead levels, BTW), but its benefits are somewhat lesser: you add your Intelligence to Reflex saves, critical confirmation rolls, defenses against special attacks (aka Bull Rush, Disarm, Trip, etc.) and damage when flanking or hitting a flat-footed enemy, which eventually also applies to attacks of opportunity. The rest is Uncanny Dodge (not bad, but no Evasion or Mettle) and a set of bonus feats, but not as a Fighter would (in fact, aside from the discipline-specific feats, most of them are a wash; Combat Reflexes, Imp. Initiative and Quick Draw are IMO the winners here). If you have a high Intelligence score, the Warblade edges out ahead, but the Crusader's constant bonus from Furious Counterstrike is solid enough to counteract. So, aside from the capstone (two stances at once), the Warblade and the Crusader are once again at the same: ahead, but not for a lot.

Which, of course, leaves everything to maneuvers. The Crusader knows more maneuvers than the Warblade at almost every level, has more maneuvers readied than the Warblade at nearly all levels, but its stance progression is atrocious (more atrocious than the Warblade, which misses out by one level most of the 3rd level stances). The Warblade has 5 disciplines to the Crusader's three, but both the Crusader and the Warblade share two disciplines (Stone Dragon and White Raven), which gives the advantage to the Warblade. The Warblade exclusive discipline (Iron Heart) has the ill-defined and broken Iron Heart Surge, the early gem Punishing Stance and one of the few official long-range maneuvers (Lightning Throw), but little else in terms of worth (you rarely hear Iron Heart maneuvers outside those, though I have to admit Adamantine Hurricane/Mithral Tornado is very nice). The Crusader exclusive discipline (Devoted Spirit) has a larger amount of useful maneuvers: Foehammer is Mountain Hammer but at any altitude and without the utility benefit of ignoring hardness, Iron Guard's Glare is an effective early deterrent for opponents, Thicket of Blades is essential to tanking builds, Immortal Fortitude is the "I can't be killed" stance, Martial Spirit is a great buffing ability, the alignment charges are fairly good, 3 out of 4 alignment auras are insanely good (Evil got the shaft here with Aura of Tyranny), the counters are really good even if you don't specialize in Sword & Board (Shield Counter in particular)...as you can see, nearly every Devoted Spirit maneuver is great. Strike of Righteous Vitality may be the crown jewel, but I wouldn't ignore Rallying Strike: it's gained earlier, and while it acts as a Mass Cure Light Wounds in combat, it acts as a Mass Cure Light Wounds after hitting, and it's one of the few disciplines that actually uses your Initiator Level to scale the effect of the maneuver (the only other is White Raven, and if you stretch the definition, Diamond Mind with [Greater] Insightful Strike). In terms of exclusive access disciplines, Devoted Spirit is perhaps one of the best overall. Diamond Mind is one of the best disciplines overall, and the Warblade can really exploit it (even more than the Swordsage, IMO); Tiger Claw is deceptively good but not exactly because of its maneuvers, but rather because of its boosts (Dancing/Raging Mongoose; Sudden Leap). The Crusader makes better use of White Raven, though, because of the larger amount of prepared maneuvers and the lack of competition from other disciplines (Warblade has three great disciplines, Crusader has two). So, once again, the Warblade edges out ahead of the Crusader, but by so little, it's like saying 2 oz. worth of bacon in a meal is better than 1 oz. of bacon.

As for Swordsage...the Crusader has better HD, better BAB, better proficiencies (Swordsage also lack proper ranged weapons, though they still have proficiency with Crossbows), better recovery method for maneuvers and better class features, but the Swordsage has better amount of maneuvers, more maneuvers readied, more stances overall, better saves and better skill points, so they're fairly equal but I'd give the edge to the Crusader in-combat. The Swordsage's skills are somewhat unfocused, they get great skills (Hide + Move Silently, Listen, Sense Motive, Balance, Tumble) but miss others (where's Spot?), so while they can do decent skill-monkeys, they're nowhere near the Rogue or Factotum's effectiveness on those (the Swordsage can't find/disarm traps or make proper use of UMD or be a proper scout despite its stealth and teleporting maneuvers, or be a proper face as the Crusader and Warblade can); the Swordsage is more effective in-battle, though it has the largest amount of maneuvers applicable outside of battle (Hearing the Air, Sudden Leap, Holocaust Cloak, the Shadow Jaunt and advanced teleporting maneuvers, Child of Shadows to create concealment for hiding, etc). Maneuvers-wise, they get a great counter-specialized discipline in Setting Sun, and Desert Wind isn't a discipline to laugh at (immunity to fire can be invaluable given that it's the most used energy type) but it's nowhere near the worth of Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind. Their recovery mechanic is arguably the worst, which almost forces them to acquire Adaptive Style as soon as possible, and while they have a large amount of maneuvers they can learn, they can only ready about half of them. Their low BAB makes them a bit limited in terms of what they can do with builds, and their sole advantage against the Crusader in terms of AC (wearing light armor and adding Wis to AC) is lost if you choose to go Unarmed Swordsage, so it's your choice if you wish to trade it or not. I wouldn't claim the Swordsage is arguably better than the Crusader; their focuses are so different that even in combat they're nowhere alike. Think about the difference between...say, a Duskblade and a Factotum, and mentioning just how the Duskblade is better than the Factotum in combat while ignoring what they can do outside (and viceversa).

Thus, in conclusion: stating that the Crusader is the weakest class requires defining what makes a class strong, and thus what of the Crusader's tools it has to ignore. The Crusader is one of the best faces (though nowhere near the Bard) and tanks in the game (probably THE best, bar none), and it can still deliver a pretty brutal smack that can make a Barbarian swoon. It has, aside from doing face tasks, the least amount of out-of-combat uses (the Paladin beats the Crusader in that just through spellcasting, which is one of the key reasons I consider the two classes can co-exist instead of having one replace the other), but it brings a lot of tools in combat that the others simply can't bring. Those tools are good enough to compare it to the Swordsage at the very least, so I couldn't bring myself to consider the class the "worst" if the two are so similar. In fact, given the margin of advantage the Warblade has, I wouldn't claim the Crusader is definitely worse either.

[StreamOfTheSky]

As for Swordsage...Their recovery mechanic is arguably the worst

...Arguably?! Is there someone out there playing Devil's advocate or trolling or something?

[Immabozo]

*blink* holy wall of text batman


I know that. Rereading my OP I noticed it didn't come across as so... It's just that in one of the handbooks it's described as such and I even saw it a few times in some boards. But regardless, it seems every single person thinks this feat is THE feat to be taken by crusaders, but losing attack bonus for some temp HP when there so many maneuvers that require you actually hit, having the maximum amount of BAB capped at a ridiculous 5 and with no way to negate the penalty (like Shock Trooper), the feat seems sub par to say the least.

I see your point and I agree with you. I would prefer that DR 1/- feat, personally. But I have never even taken that one!

[T.G. Oskar]

...Arguably?! Is there someone out there playing Devil's advocate or trolling or something?

Probably, probably and...probably.

I'm not entirely sure someone plays the DA for the Swordsage's recovery mechanic, since the consensus is that the Swordsage recovery mechanic sucks, but no one has stated reasons why not otherwise. Nor have I seen someone deliberately trolling on that one, but YMMV.

That said: it's better than no recovery whatsoever. Do you at least agree with that?

[gomipile]

Mournlands are a place where almost all forms of magic healing don't work.

Healing spells are only half as effective as normal there, IIRC. Unless they are cast within an appropriate Consecrated area, that is.

[Jeff the Green]

Healing spells are only half as effective as normal there, IIRC. Unless they are cast within an appropriate Consecrated area, that is.

I'm pretty sure that's Kevin Baker's houserule, actually. Actually, I'm having trouble finding a cite for the consecrate rule too. I'm fairly sure I'm looking right at it, but could someone point me to it?

[RedWarlock]

I'm pretty sure that's Kevin Baker's houserule, actually. Actually, I'm having trouble finding a cite for the consecrate rule too. I'm fairly sure I'm looking right at it, but could someone point me to it?

(You mean Keith Baker?)

And yes, houserule. The ECS isn't super-clear on a quick search, but there is mention of "the wounds of war never heal."

[Sorc]

I've been reading the ToB book in order to create some Initiators NPC and after reading all 3 base classes I'm pretty sure that the Crusader is the least synergetic of the 3.

He's a tank that has a d10, he gets heavy armor proficiency but benefits from a decent Dex (thicket of blades + Combat Reflexes), Stone Power gives him effectively DR 10/- but plenty of his strikes require the attack to actually hit, but he now has 25% less chance to do so. He gets Cha bonus to Will but it's arguably the worse of the mental stats. Yes, it can be really abused by RAW, but I'm yet to meet a DM that lets Diplomacy and Bluff really get out of hand... Int gives you skill pts, and Wis boosts Will and perception skills but you can't even the Cha with your smite attack because its uses per day is freaking ridiculous.

Also, Devoted Spirit seems to be the worse of the unique schools (especially since it can't destroy the sun). But seriously... Strike of Righteous Vitality is way weaker when compared to Strike of Perfect Clarity which is already pretty weak. Normal attack + Heal* (*maybe) vs bonus 100 damage pretty much falls into the theory that it's better to avoid damage by killing your foes quickly than by actually healing in combat.

Can anyone prove me wrong?

No, I can't. Desert wind Lv 9 maneuver is 100 damage to a huge spread of guys. The Lv 9 maneuver for Themis plus 100 for ONE attack

[Segev]

I have a dual-wielding paladin on whom I am sorely tempted to find ways to pick up Flashing Sun and Burning Blade, as well as Iron Heart's Punishing Stance. Because extra sources of damage and extra attacks are so tasty.

[Firechanter]

Long story short:
Crusader and Warblade (and Swordsage) fill different primary niches, so comparing them and trying to say which is "best" is moot. It's like asking "Which is better, a sports car or a truck?". The Warblade is the better bruiser, the Crusader is the better tank. Both also have some Leading capabilities due to White Raven, but they do that stuff equally well, if we disregard TO stunts like Idiot Crusader.

However, we can also admit that the Warblade is the more attractive of the two. Warblade 20 is a fully viable build, while Crusader 20 just doesn't make a lot of sense. Then again, Crusader multiclasses well, for instance with 4 levels of Knight for ultimate Tankage. The Warblade also benefits from certain dips, but has an actual capstone to look forward to, so multiclassing is an actual tradeoff.

I can't say much about the Swordsage, have never played it except for a 2-level dip once. But I have played a Crusader and it was good, and Warblade is pretty much my favourite class.

[Divide by Zero]

Warblade 20 is a fully viable build, while Crusader 20 just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I would argue that this is mostly because the levels they get stances at make approximately zero sense. Houserule that, or dip a couple levels in something else to make them line up, and it'd be perfectly fine.

[Segev]

I'm AFB right now, so could somebody outline what exactly is wrong with the Crusader's stance progression as compared to Swordsage and Warblade, please? I confess I've never quite noticed such a thing, so I am curious where this is coming from.

[HammeredWharf]

I'm AFB right now, so could somebody outline what exactly is wrong with the Crusader's stance progression as compared to Swordsage and Warblade, please? I confess I've never quite noticed such a thing, so I am curious where this is coming from.

They get additional stances at levels 1, 2, 8 and 14 and enough IL to access new stances at levels 1, 5, 9, 11 and 15. So, as written, they can't even take any 8th level stances without the Martial Stance feat.

[Kaeso]

Can anyone explain the OP's joke about destroying the sun? :smallconfused:

[Segev]

Can anyone explain the OP's joke about destroying the sun? :smallconfused:

Iron Heart Surge lets you take a standard action to end deliterious effects on your person. The hard reading of the RAW reveals that it ends the effect, and that it doesn't specify what constitutes "an effect" so you're left with a lot of interperative wiggle-room.

Sunlight can cause deliterious effects. Spend a standard action to end the effect, and you turn off the sun. RAW doesn't say "on yourself," but rather that you end the entire effect. (RAI likely is "on yourself.")

[Necroticplague]

Iron Heart Surge lets you take a standard action to end deliterious effects on your person. The hard reading of the RAW reveals that it ends the effect, and that it doesn't specify what constitutes "an effect" so you're left with a lot of interperative wiggle-room.

Sunlight can cause deliterious effects. Spend a standard action to end the effect, and you turn off the sun. RAW doesn't say "on yourself," but rather that you end the entire effect. (RAI likely is "on yourself.")

Specifically, if you're a vampire or an orc (destroyed and dazzled by sunlight, respectively), then the existence of the sun is something you can IHS away. Of course, taken to an equally literal level, this can have a great ridiculous other implications, even if you say it only applies to you (drowning? IHS. Now you breath underwater. Vampire easily existing in the sunlight.).

[Firechanter]

I would argue that this is mostly because the levels they get stances at make approximately zero sense.

True, but that's also true for the Warblade. By now I am so used to our houserule, I automatically assume everyone does get their stances at meaningful levels.

In fact, I was referring to the Crusader's lackluster special abilities at the highest levels. They get slots for 4 level 9 maneuvers but only qualify for 3 (due to Discipline access). Their "capstone" is another +1/+1 under certain circumstances. Likewise, one single extra Smite per day at level 18 doesn't seem very relevant either.

By mixing in a few different class levels, they still retain most of their Steely Resolve, gain sufficient level 9 maneuvers, and grab some synergistic abilities.
In short, I'd much rather play a Bardsader or Knightsader than a straight Crusader.

[Rijan_Sai]

Just throwing this out there, but the errata fixes most of the problems with the book, including stance progression, IHS and SoRV clarification, etc.

One glaring ommission, however, is the lack of fixing for the (incredibly silly) reading that when you multi-class into an initiator class, you can only select a 1st level stance. Even if you've been playing up to that point as, for example, a Warblade, and multi-class into Swordsage, you would still only get to select a 1st level SS available stance...:smallfurious:

To me, it's the equivalent of telling a Rogue that, in the midde of a dungeon crall, multi-classes into a Wizard that they (magically?) get a spell book with all 0 level spells, and 3+Int 1st level spells...
Yes. that would be a benefit to the Rogue/Wizard, just as the 1st level stance is a detriment to the initiator; both are wrong. :smallmad:

[Shining Wrath]

I vote for Swordsage as the weakest of the three base classes. There's just no getting around 3/4 BAB and D8 HD IMNHO for a martial class. They DO get a lot of maneuvers, though, which is what you came to TOB for - but they can't refresh them without a feat tax (Adaptive Style) and even then it isn't easy.

I vote for Warblades as the strongest because of their refresh mechanism. Want IHS back? Make a full attack on the guy next to you. Also, in terms of which mental stat you want to boost, INT is good.

A Warblade / Swordsage gestalt would OWN. Just sayin'. Emphasize INT as the mental stat, get lots of skill ranks for out-of-combat utility, all the maneuvers you can ever use, and that awesome WB chassis to carry them around.

[Shining Wrath]

Healing spells are only half as effective as normal there, IIRC. Unless they are cast within an appropriate Consecrated area, that is.

When we went into the ML magical healing didn't work at all - until we crawled into our extra-dimensional space (Rope Trick).

[ScrambledBrains]

I vote for Swordsage as the weakest of the three base classes. There's just no getting around 3/4 BAB and D8 HD IMNHO for a martial class. They DO get a lot of maneuvers, though, which is what you came to TOB for - but they can't refresh them without a feat tax (Adaptive Style) and even then it isn't easy.

I vote for Warblades as the strongest because of their refresh mechanism. Want IHS back? Make a full attack on the guy next to you. Also, in terms of which mental stat you want to boost, INT is good.

A Warblade / Swordsage gestalt would OWN. Just sayin'. Emphasize INT as the mental stat, get lots of skill ranks for out-of-combat utility, all the maneuvers you can ever use, and that awesome WB chassis to carry them around.

I mean no disrespect, Shining Wrath, but I would say that weakest is a misleading term. For a straight up, face-to-face slugfest? Then yes, I agree the Warblade or Crusader would own the Swordsage. But Swordsages weren't built for that. They were built to be a lightly armored, mobile warrior. They are the scouts, the monks, the rogues of ToB, the one who strikes from shadows and does his best to keep out of direct combat. The one who finds information about his enemies and uses it against them. You could feasibly build a Warblade or Crusader to match that versatility, but it would be difficult and counter for what what the class is built. :smallsmile:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

[QUOTE=Aegis013;17511525
The baseline Crusader isn't the strongest of the ToB classes (that goes to the Warblade),[/QUOTE]

How do you figure? I always thought Swordsage was the clear leader. (Great class features, high AC, access to so many maneuvers and stances they can burn some for utility stuff, sole access to Setting Sun and Shadow Hand...)

[137beth]

How do you figure? I always thought Swordsage was the clear leader. (Great class features, high AC, access to so many maneuvers and stances they can burn some for utility stuff, sole access to Setting Sun and Shadow Hand...)

I think Swordsage is arguably the worst. It has the worst recovery mechanic, it has neither White Raven Tactics nor Iron Heart Surge, and the medium BAB does hurt. It also has a rather poor skill selection for the class that is supposedly the rogue-replacement (not counting factotum).
They are all pretty close, though.

[Jeff the Green]

I think Swordsage is arguably the worst. It has the worst recovery mechanic, it has neither White Raven Tactics nor Iron Heart Surge, and the medium BAB does hurt. It also has a rather poor skill selection for the class that is supposedly the rogue-replacement (not counting factotum).
They are all pretty close, though.

It's really more of a monk replacement.

I think it's silly to pick a "best" ToB class. They're all solid tier-3s, they all have their specialty, and they all perform admirably at it.

[Divide by Zero]

My favorite build, though, is Warblade 5/X 1/Crusader 14. That gets you the best parts of Warblade (Diamond Mind saves and IHS), all the goodness of a one-level dip (my top choices are Cloistered Cleric because it's always a good dip, Marshal for Motivate Dexterity, Fighter if your build is feat-heavy, or Swordsage for even more versatility), and you still get Thicket of Blades at the same level you would with Crusader 20.

[Shining Wrath]

I mean no disrespect, Shining Wrath, but I would say that weakest is a misleading term. For a straight up, face-to-face slugfest? Then yes, I agree the Warblade or Crusader would own the Swordsage. But Swordsages weren't built for that. They were built to be a lightly armored, mobile warrior. They are the scouts, the monks, the rogues of ToB, the one who strikes from shadows and does his best to keep out of direct combat. The one who finds information about his enemies and uses it against them. You could feasibly build a Warblade or Crusader to match that versatility, but it would be difficult and counter for what what the class is built. :smallsmile:

Of course no disrespect is taken.

They are a martial class. They don't do martial as well as the others. Instead of being Rogues in combat, they are Monks with swords. OTOH, they have superior out-of-combat utility just from being able to teleport - you cannot imagine how many times I used that - and at least they get stances when they can use them.

But I keep coming back to that recovery mechanism. ToB classes are about the maneuvers, and a swordsage has to pay a one-feat tax to have any recovery ability at all, and even then it's not as good as a Warblade's.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I think Swordsage is arguably the worst. It has the worst recovery mechanic, it has neither White Raven Tactics nor Iron Heart Surge, and the medium BAB does hurt. It also has a rather poor skill selection for the class that is supposedly the rogue-replacement (not counting factotum).
They are all pretty close, though.

Those abilities are nice, but some of the Shadow Hand and Setting Sun stuff is beautiful in practice. I have many fond memories of my swordsage reliably putting every enemy on their back in the middle of my party's melee, so they had to eat attacks at a bonus followed by AoOs just to get up. Throw in move or swift action teleports, invisibility, basically guaranteed flanking, and a whole passel of options for ability damage... the recovery mechanic's not great, but I've usually found that it doesn't come up so often, because you have so many maneuvers readied that by the time you have to stop, you're usually on mop-up anyway.

Though, I admit my favorite ToB build is swordsage with Crusader and Warblade dips, to pick up IHS and Thicket of Blades. (That, by the way, is a nightmarish trip build.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just throwing this out there, but the errata fixes most of the problems with the book, including stance progression, IHS and SoRV clarification, etc.


but the errata fixes most of the problems with the book,


the errata

What is this witchcraft!?

[137beth]

What is this witchcraft!?

I thought ToB is the errata. Ya know, the errata for the fighter, paladin, and monk:smalltongue:

[ScrambledBrains]

But I keep coming back to that recovery mechanism. ToB classes are about the maneuvers, and a swordsage has to pay a one-feat tax to have any recovery ability at all, and even then it's not as good as a Warblade's.

Point. I loathe that feat-tax with the white hot fury of a thousand suns...:smallfurious:

[137beth]

Point. I loathe that feat-tax with the white hot fury of a thousand suns...:smallfurious:

Eh, just dip Warblade and IHS to end the effect of having a bad recovery mechanic.

[squiggit]

I always thought Swordsages should have swift action to recover a single maneuver. Much cleaner.

[Kennisiou]

Crusader is definitely the worst ToB class. It's solid in combat, don't get me wrong. It can damage, heal, buff, and do a lot of other stuff. It also has a nice combo with stone power + delayed damage pool and a few other neat tricks. But that's all it is. It's a combat class. Sure it can party face, but on party facing it's worse than Paladin, Factotum, Rogue, Bard, Hexblade... honestly given the choice of who I want to do my social rolls between a Samurai and a Crusader I'd probably go Samurai. It's not the worst party face in the game, still beats out Swashbuckler and Warblade, but it's far from great at it. And that plus maybe having access to some cheesy infinite out of combat healing shenanigans is what it has going for it. That's all.

Compare this to the Swordsage's out of combat abilities, where it's capable of being a valid sneak and skill monkey (although it can't handle traps), where it has maneuvers that give it mobility, a stance that gives it scent, and a few other tricks that remain relevant even when you're not trying to stab everyone to death. Warblade's knowledge skills and gravy int stats, useful perception and dex based skills, and the fact that it has access to some but not all of the Swordsage's non-combat maneuvers and stances mean that when it's time to sheath the swords he's still doing something significant. Crusader just... isn't. Almost ever.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I will say... in one of my campaigns, one of my players was a 1st-level Warforged Crusader, and that guy was made of murder and win. The party's effectiveness pretty much doubled when he joined - AC and DR almost no one could touch, a steady font of healing, Iron Guard's Glare and a reach weapon to make sure that enemies could enver touch the rest of the party either...

My general opinion is that Crusader gets the short end of the stick, because it's being evaluated on a one-on-one basis, when it's really a support class. Healy Tanky Lockdowny that's actually fun to play.

[Rijan_Sai]

I thought ToB is the errata. Ya know, the errata for the fighter, paladin, and monk:smalltongue:
:smallcool:


What is this witchcraft!?
Witchcraft! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0) :smallbiggrin:

And before you state the obvious,
1) See my sig...
2) Until WotC gets off their collective arses and post a true errata, it's the closest we are ever going to get. As such, I will refer to it at all times as "the errata" for this book, falsehoods (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) be damned!

[Ellowryn]

Hey Rijan_Sai, how unofficial is that errata? By that i mean who created it?

[Flickerdart]

Hey Rijan_Sai, how unofficial is that errata? By that i mean who created it?
That errata is not official in any capacity whatsoever.

[Rijan_Sai]

Hey Rijan_Sai, how unofficial is that errata? By that i mean who created it?


That errata is not official in any capacity whatsoever.

^This...

It was created/compiled by Sinfire Titan, though I believe it was the work of several people across several message boards. It is in no way whatsoever connected to a certain (spoooooky!) wizard who lives by the coast. If you get my drift. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html)

[Ellowryn]

Darn. I was kinda worried when looking over it that the errata seemed to make sense, and that explains it. Oh well.

Isn't the "fix" for the bad stance progression taking 6 levels in a different class? I believe that lines up everything if you are willing to multiclass.

[Firechanter]

Darn. I was kinda worried when looking over it that the errata seemed to make sense, and that explains it. Oh well.

Isn't the "fix" for the bad stance progression taking 6 levels in a different class? I believe that lines up everything if you are willing to multiclass.

Iirc you don't need to take 6 levels; 2 levels would do for the Warbie. However, I find it incredibly silly and downright unacceptable class design that gives access to your very own class feature much earlier to someone who multiclasses.
Hence, I for one (and probably a thousand others) have houseruled the Warblade Stances to be gained at levels 1, 5, 10, and 15. Or possibly 9 instead of 10. Similarly for Crusader, with an extra stance at 2.

That said, the unofficial Errata sometimes go in directions I do not like, so my houserules are different in several points. For instance IHS.

[Anlashok]

Too many gung-ho design changes while still missing several key things.

I mean hell that "errata" doesn't even fix Divine Impetus' action.