What CR is a level 20 monk?

[cosmonuts]

Just curious.

[Dusk Eclipse]

By the book? CR 20.

Personally I think a CR 20 monk would be a challenging encounter for a midly optimized level 13-14ish party.

[137beth]

Assuming it was a normal LA 0 PC race, by RAW it would be 20.

In an actual game, CR isn't a very accurate measure of an encounter's threat at level 20, even for monsters built to be monsters. For NPCs, it is even worse.
EDIT: Swordsaged

[cosmonuts]

Excuse me, I meant "what CR should a monk 20 be", not what it is by RAW.

Anyhow, Dusk Eclipse answered the question I meant to ask. I'm guessing that CR 13 is because of magic items, not because level seven spells are needed to defeat a naked monk 20.

[ryu]

Excuse me, I meant "what CR should a monk 20 be", not what it is by RAW.

Anyhow, Dusk Eclipse answered the question I meant to ask. I'm guessing that CR 13 is because of magic items, not because level seven spells are needed to defeat a naked monk 20.

Pretty much. Monk is one of the most gear dependent classes in the game. I literally see more tangible threat coming from WBL than actual class features.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was just eyeballing, it might be a higher or lower CR depending on party composition, optimization level for both the monk and the party, if the monk has full WBL (which depending on how it is spent might make the fight either much more difficult or much easier), etc.
I choose level 13 because Monks can be very difficult to take down by means other than pure raw damage, specially if the monk has access to ACF like Dark Moon Monk and/or invisible fist. Nothing a level 13 party can't take on, but very annoying to do so.

[Bronk]

Pretty much. Monk is one of the most gear dependent classes in the game. I literally see more tangible threat coming from WBL than actual class features.

Still, even a naked and weaponless monk might have vow of poverty feats... Boosted stats, high mobility and touch of golden ice could make for a tough encounter.

[Dusk Eclipse]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-25067-And-Here-We-Go-Joker-gif-Imgur-x71M.gif

VoP is a pretty bad feat and despite what one might thing it actively hurts monks, since as ryu said before Monks really like their gear. However that is coming from a player's perspective, form a DM's one it might be an interesting idea, since it will make the enemy even more difficult to kill (the party can still fly and kite the monk to death though) and your party will hate you for not giving them loot. Besides there is the difficulty of having an Exalted Lawful Good monk want to fight the party... unless it is an evil party I guess.

[RedMage125]

If you (the DM) gear the monk smartly, even going by NPC gear guidelines, you should be able to make the monk a relatively difficult fight for a party of level 13-14 characters.

For starters, his AC and touch AC should be as high as you can boost them. His Monk levels take care of his saving throws, he's going to make most saving throws he is subjected to. But give him a vest/cloak of resistance, just to push it that last little bit.

Honestly, when my players were about 14 or so, I had them in an encounter with a level 16 or 17 Monk (levels of Tattoed Monk), a Kensai (I forget his base class) of the same level, and a few level 10 Sohei as guards. The Kensai was easier to hit (they managed to catch the group relatively by surprise, so I decided the kensai didn't have his armor on), but did beastly damage. The monk did not hit for much damage, but he was very frustrating for my players, because he was VERY hard to hit, and usually made his saves.

It was a decently challenging fight for them overall. Not "OMG hard", but not a cakewalk, either.

One thing that's important to remember is that regardless of the "challenge" that any given creature poses, Action Economy means don't make it a solo fight against the whole party. Even dragons go down like punks when a party of 4-5 PCs gang-stomp them.

[Angelalex242]

Don't give the level 20 monk a monk's belt. They don't actually do anything useful anymore. Belt of Giant Strength +6 serves him better. He also wants gloves of dex +6, Bracers of Health +6, Periapt of Wisdom +6. Reslot Bracers of Armor +8 and the Amulet of Natural Armor +5, and don't forget a ring of protection +5 while you're at it. Cloak of Resistance +5, no less. Ring of Blinking might help.

Make DAMN sure that monk can fly. You have timeless body, so it might be worth making the monk old for the Wis bonus.

If you believe the monk insufficiently challenging, stat him up as if he'd rolled all 18s at chargen, and put all his level up bonuses in Wisdom. If that's still not enough, say he's read a +5 book of every stat.

Speaking of which, make sure to use the monk's abilities ruthlessly. Quivering palm the nearest arcane caster, immediately. And then use Stunning Fist at least once per attack on everyone until the monk runs out of them.

Don't forget to use wholeness of body the minute it becomes relevant...

And Empty Body means you can run away (at super speeds!) and live to fight another day.

Monks have SKILLS! Use them. He's got 23 ranks in hide, move silently, tumble, spot, and listen. Make sure he gets the jump on the party. If he has 23 ranks in balance, have him confront the party on a 5 foot wide ledge over molten magma. He's gonna make his balance check. The guys in full plate with no balance ranks and armor check penalties? Not so much.

[Curmudgeon]

If he has 23 ranks in balance, have him confront the party on a 5 foot inch wide ledge over molten magma. He's gonna make his balance check. The guys in full plate with no balance ranks and armor check penalties? Not so much.
I fixed that for you.

[Angelalex242]

Point made. Thank you. :)

Or hell, a tightrope. Anything that's DC 20 to make the check at all. Monk can't fail, but the enemies? Even the non armored wizard is gonna fail that check pretty quickly.

[ryu]

Point made. Thank you. :)

Or hell, a tightrope. Anything that's DC 20 to make the check at all. Monk can't fail, but the enemies? Even the non armored wizard is gonna fail that check pretty quickly.

Excuse me? Flight under my own power. I don't need your stinking tightrope.

[Flickerdart]

Don't give the level 20 monk a monk's belt. They don't actually do anything useful anymore. Belt of Giant Strength +6 serves him better. He also wants gloves of dex +6, Bracers of Health +6, Periapt of Wisdom +6. Reslot Bracers of Armor +8 and the Amulet of Natural Armor +5, and don't forget a ring of protection +5 while you're at it. Cloak of Resistance +5, no less. Ring of Blinking might help.
Anything with CR is an NPC. NPCs use NPC WBL, so...you're going to have to budget a little more conservatively than that.

[Curmudgeon]

The best scenario for a Monk is indoors, with low ceilings and short sight lines (lots of pillars/statuary/whatnot). Make it so that flying and long range spells provide no advantage.

[toapat]

going by the CR calculator:

Hp/6.5, at 14 con = 17

High AC: +1-2

+3 from Special attacks and SLAs

+4 for resistances mitigation and immunity

+2 for bonus feats

/3

So, about CR 9

[Angelalex242]

Not everyone in the PC party is going to be able to fly.

And if the monk wants to be really mean, he duels the party in an antimagic field instead, on a tightrope over magma. Heh heh heh. :)

And WBL is a matter of opinion. I use NPC wealth by level only for minions. 'boss fights' get PC Wealth by Level.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Characters not being able to fly at level 13 are the exception, rather than the rule. At that point even non-specialist wizards will be able to spare enough 3rd level spells to outfit the party without draining their own resources.

[Svata]

Not everyone in the PC party is going to be able to fly.

Flight is necessary. If someone can't fly, then they deserve the magma. A fifth level pearl of power isn't that expensive, in the long run, and one of those means the wizard has no excuse to not cast Overland Flight on you at the beginning of each day.


Edit: Ninja'd!

[Angelalex242]

See above about antimagic field. It makes the monk's gear pointless, indeed, but he needs gear a whole lot less then any other class.

[ryu]

Not everyone in the PC party is going to be able to fly.

And if the monk wants to be really mean, he duels the party in an antimagic field instead, on a tightrope over magma. Heh heh heh. :)

And WBL is a matter of opinion. I use NPC wealth by level only for minions. 'boss fights' get PC Wealth by Level.

Antimagic field you say? Short range and tanks most all means of effectively item pimping your touch AC. Suck metamagiced orbs of force.

Edit: Hahahahahaha.... Oh wait were you serious? I saw no blue there.

[Angelalex242]

Maybe I'm not familiar with orb of force, but it's magic, so how is it getting in to hit anything in an antimagic field? It should cease to exist once it touches it.

Besides, a wizard's likely to only have one of those prepared.

[Svata]

See above about antimagic field. It makes the monk's gear pointless, indeed, which he needs gear a whole lot more then any other class.

Ftfy.
Also, Conjuration from outside still tags him. Good luck surviving whatever the Wizard brings up with Summon Monster VI or the Sorcerer's Orbs of X.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Orbs of Force are Instantaneous Conjurations, which means that as long as the spell is cast outside the AMF they can still hit the monk.

Edit: Summoned creatures wink out inside AMF.... called creatures on the other hand do not.

[Svata]

Maybe I'm not familiar with orb of force, but it's magic, so how is it getting in to hit anything in an antimagic field? It should cease to exist once it touches it.

Besides, a wizard's likely to only have one of those prepared.

Conjuration (creation) is a **** like that, and they're more of a sorcerer thng, anyway.

[ryu]

Maybe I'm not familiar with orb of force, but it's magic, so how is it getting in to hit anything in an antimagic field? It should cease to exist once it touches it.

Besides, a wizard's likely to only have one of those prepared.

Instantaneous creation conjuration me boyo. That's a NON-MAGICAL ball of forced-based pain coming for your noggin. Also it's 4th level spell in a school commonly specialized in AND it's cheap in scroll form. I'm not running out any time soon.

[Flickerdart]

Not everyone in the PC party is going to be able to fly.

And if the monk wants to be really mean, he duels the party in an antimagic field instead, on a tightrope over magma. Heh heh heh. :)
What do you imagine this accomplishes?



And WBL is a matter of opinion. I use NPC wealth by level only for minions. 'boss fights' get PC Wealth by Level.
Ignoring the rules doesn't make them not rules.

[ryu]

What do you imagine this accomplishes?


Ignoring the rules doesn't make them not rules.

Sets up a nice game of dunk the monk? It's like those old school carnival dunk-tanks accept instead of baseballs we through orbs of force.

[Flickerdart]

Sets up a nice game of dunk the monk? It's like those old school carnival dunk-tanks accept instead of baseballs we through orbs of force.
You don't even need orbs of force for this - without fancy magic bling and his supernatural abilities, a monk is just a squishier fighter. Send in your own front-liner to beat his face in.

[ryu]

You don't even need orbs of force for this - without fancy magic bling and his supernatural abilities, a monk is just a squishier fighter. Send in your own front-liner to beat his face in.

You do remember that this is all occurring on a tightrope right? Why risk closing to melee over lava in that condition when orbs of force are safer and come with funnier parallels?

[Morbis Meh]

Point made. Thank you. :)

Or hell, a tightrope. Anything that's DC 20 to make the check at all. Monk can't fail, but the enemies? Even the non armored wizard is gonna fail that check pretty quickly.

Tight rope you say... fighter simply walks up cuts the rope and laughs maniacally as the monk plummets to its fiery death. 5inch ledge? Simply lure the monk off of it, you see monks have almost no range attack capability thus you essentially made the challenge easily bypassed; simply destroy the ledges on either side of the monk and either go around him/wait for him to come to you.

[Flickerdart]

You do remember that this is all occurring on a tightrope right?
The Monk has no special power to be better at Balance checks than anybody else with it as a class skill. In fact he'll almost certainly be worse, because he needs to keep 4-5 stats high and can't even use magic items to do it because he lives in an AMF that came from...somewhere?

[Tvtyrant]

With magic items and no ACFs probably CR 13? With VoP CR 10 or less. Little HP, no magic items, does little damage, has to sit there to hit anything.

[137beth]

Tight rope you say... fighter simply walks up cuts the rope and laughs maniacally as the monk plummets to its fiery death. 5inch ledge? Simply lure the monk off of it, you see monks have almost no range attack capability thus you essentially made the challenge easily bypassed; simply destroy the ledges on either side of the monk and either go around him/wait for him to come to you.

Then you miss out on all that level 20 WBL!
Unless it was a VoP monk in which case no harm done, he was going to die soon anyways:smallamused:

[RavynsLand]

I'unno. The group I'm currently DMing ranges from 10-12, and I'm pretty certain they'd sodomize a 20th level monk into a gory smear.

[Snowbluff]

Point made. Thank you. :)

Or hell, a tightrope. Anything that's DC 20 to make the check at all. Monk can't fail, but the enemies? Even the non armored wizard is gonna fail that check pretty quickly.

This reminds me of this April's Fools joke. It was a second edition Thief Acrobat stealth buff.

In short: Tightropes EVERYWHERE, and falling damage started large and grew exponentially.

[StreamOfTheSky]

For a "balanced" party of casters and non-casters that's not using any particularly game-breaking tricks and combos...I'd say the Monk 20 would be a fair challenge for a level 12 party, roughly. Level 10 might even be good, they just might get frustrated with missing, not being able to beat SR/saves, etc.... But it's not like the monk would be a threat to them offensively, either.


Pretty much. Monk is one of the most gear dependent classes in the game. I literally see more tangible threat coming from WBL than actual class features.

Quoted for truth. The only hesitation I'd have tossing the Monk 20 at a party is if he had any high level magic items that do things they just plain can't deal with.

[Angelalex242]

Okay, new plan.

Monk on one side of a tightrope. Party on the other side. Monk wears gloves of greater dispelling. When the party tries to fly at him, he hits them, and down they go into the lava. The wise monk uses his environment.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Okay, new plan.

Monk on one side of a tightrope. Party on the other side. Monk wears gloves of greater dispelling. When the party tries to fly at him, he hits them, and down they go into the lava. The wise monk uses his environment.

Why would they close to melee with him? Just sling spells. Hell, even the party fighter and rogue get bow proficiencies, which is more than can be said for monk. Monk is the one who wants to close to melee in this match-up.

[Angelalex242]

Clearly the Monk also needs to set up Total Cover relative to the party while he waits for them to cross the lava, one way or another. You do not want to let the party use their action economy against you. And if they do manage to get across, you want hit and run and stealth abuse to do maximum damage.

[toapat]

I'unno. The group I'm currently DMing ranges from 10-12, and I'm pretty certain they'd sodomize a 20th level monk into a gory smear.

well, i did plug it into the Vorpal Tribble CR calculator, Before WBL its a CR 9

[Graypairofsocks]

Instantaneous creation conjuration me boyo. That's a NON-MAGICAL ball of forced-based pain coming for your noggin. Also it's 4th level spell in a school commonly specialized in AND it's cheap in scroll form. I'm not running out any time soon.

Technically it is a Non-magical orb of Magical force.

How is it both at the same time?

Magic.

[Snowbluff]

Why not just Shatter the rope?

[Curmudgeon]

Why not just Shatter the rope?
Because Shatter only works on solid objects and a rope is flexible, not solid.

[Graypairofsocks]

Then Lesser Orb of Fire it.

[PrinceOfMadness]

You have to burn the rope! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmuiwOGi5gA&feature=kp)

Pretty much obligatory.

Anyway, as others have said, for the tightrope scenario to pan out, you need some way to lure the party to the monk. Otherwise they just go about their merry way - think the Black Knight from Monty Python. You have to have some way to enforce the encounter.

[Snowbluff]

Because Shatter only works on solid objects and a rope is flexible, not solid.

... Are you using some kind of definition for a state of matter that I am unaware of?:smallconfused:

EDIT: Looking through Webster's, and I can't find ONE definition of solid that doesn't apply to rope. It's in a solid state. It's not hollow. It's made of a single material. :smallconfused:

[Karnith]

... Are you using some kind of definition for a state of matter that I am unaware of?:smallconfused:

EDIT: Looking through Webster's, and I can't find ONE definition of solid that doesn't apply to rope. It's in a solid state. It's not hollow. It's made of a single material. :smallconfused:
Clearly your problem is that you're using Webster's definitions and not the OED's definitions.

[Snowbluff]

Clearly your problem is that you're using Webster's definitions and not the OED's definitions.

Maybe. It says "firm" is a definition in the Old English Dictionary. However, it's 4 definitions that say yes versus the 1 that says no.

By RAW, Shatter break rope, and submerges the monk in lava for 20d6 damage.

[Grayson01]

Excuse me? Flight under my own power. I don't need your stinking tightrope.

Have fun flying I am cutting the rope.

[Curmudgeon]

EDIT: Looking through Webster's, and I can't find ONE definition of solid that doesn't apply to rope. It's in a solid state. It's not hollow. It's made of a single material. :smallconfused:
Well, the "solid state" definition isn't going to apply to a setting which hasn't advanced beyond alchemy to chemistry; plus, all D&D objects are in the solid state anyway, so "solid object" must refer to something else.

Definitions (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/solid?s=t&path=/) which don't apply to rope:

consisting of matter all through (rope isn't solid in that respect, as it's composed of multiple fibers with air gaps between)
a substance exhibiting rigidity
firm, hard, or compact in substance: solid ground
without openings or breaks (the fibers are not continuous; they're made of multiple pieces twisted together)

[Snowbluff]

Be pedantic enough and I could say the same about steel and most rocks.

A rope could be considered continuous. The first one is untrue, since air is a form of matter (and if it isn't, then neither is a metal alloy). See yourself about talking about chemical knowledge, which is bull.

The tightrope is fixed between two points, making it rigid. It's 50/50 on the rigidity of the rope, since some ropes are much stiff than others.

Then we have the argument of the function of shatter. By causing fierce vibrations in an object, you cause it to break apart. It's like singing at a wine glass. When you tie a rope between two objects, there's already force being applied to it, making it less capable of resisting that kind of effect. For example, snapping guitar strings.

[Elderand]

Be pedantic enough and I could say the same about steel and most rocks.

A rope could be considered continuous. The first one is untrue, since air is a form of matter (and if it isn't, then neither is a metal alloy). See yourself about talking about chemical knowledge, which is bull.

The tightrope is fixed between two points, making it rigid. It's 50/50 on the rigidity of the rope, since some ropes are much stiff than others.

Then we have the argument of the function of shatter. By causing fierce vibrations in an object, you cause it to break apart. It's like singing at a wine glass. When you tie a rope between two objects, there's already force being applied to it, making it less capable of resisting that kind of effect. For example, snapping guitar strings.

Or you could, you know, not use a spell at all and just cut the damn thing.

[Snowbluff]

Or you could, you know, not use a spell at all and just cut the damn thing.

Pfft... that's not wizardy/warlocky enough. :smalltongue:

Pointless argument with Curmudgeon aside (we're both too stubborn), I think just targeting the spike holding the rope owuld be smarter.

[Angelalex242]

Instead of arguing the pedantics of my monk on a rope strategy, perhaps we might be better served coming up with a better strategy for the monk that might actually let him win?

[Tvtyrant]

Instead of arguing the pedantics of my monk on a rope strategy, perhaps we might be better served coming up with a better strategy for the monk that might actually let him win?

He takes Wild Cohort for an animal companion and uses the Dire Tiger (since Wild Cohort only gets you the animal companions from the PHB...) and covers her body in poison (which she is immune to.) Two Schema of greater invisibility gets the monk and the tiger within attack range, the monk makes touch attacks via tripping to apply the half dozen poisons on each of her hands while the tiger attempts to one shot the wizard. Hopefully you get them off guard and kill most of the party before they can move.

[Snowbluff]

Special senses are a must for an intelligent party. Greater Invisibility is worthless.

[cosmonuts]

Darkstalker feat.

[Snowbluff]

Darkstalker feat.

Mindsight, Lifesense, Touchsight.

Not to mention Truesight and Detect Invisibility.

[cosmonuts]

Mindsight, Lifesense, Touchsight.

Not to mention Truesight and Detect Invisibility.

:smallsigh: Monks just can't win.

[toapat]

How does the Monk win vs a level 12 4 man party?

By doing this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336196-I-cant-Believe-its-Not-Druid-(Its-a-monk)-(Pseudobrew)-Peach) (No homebrew whatsoever.)

[OracleofWuffing]

I think just targeting the spike holding the rope owuld be smarter.
Am I allowed to use it as the target of a Rope Trick? I mean, I don't know what I would use it for, but why waste a perfectly good rope?

[Elderand]

:smallsigh: Monks just can't win.

Therein lies the heart of the problem.

[Runestar]

I would also say cr13-14, but with npc gear appropriate for a cr14 encounter.

[Synar]

What about other classes?

[Snowbluff]

Am I allowed to use it as the target of a Rope Trick? I mean, I don't know what I would use it for, but why waste a perfectly good rope?

Well, if you do it by hitting the anchor, the rope will still be held on one side and retrievable. So yes.

I don't know what will happen if you cast the spell with the rpe being held down, though.

[TheCountAlucard]

What about other classes?Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Psion would be ~CR 24 if geared like a PC. The others would be hovering around the 15-20 range, depending on gear and how they're built.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, if you do it by hitting the anchor, the rope will still be held on one side and retrievable. So yes.

I don't know what will happen if you cast the spell with the rpe being held down, though.
Woot! Free rope!

I mean, it was practically free already, but more stuff!

[Angelalex242]

You'd think the monk's spell resistance would serve him better when he's alone. Particularly against a group of level 12s or 13s. The casters would have to roll an 18 to beat his SR.

And he's got improved evasion too. And wisdom and still mind to help with will saves.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Psion would be ~CR 24 if geared like a PC. The others would be hovering around the 15-20 range, depending on gear and how they're built.

And Sorcerer. It may not have infinitely possible nukes, but it'll still have a dozen nukes. Including a bunch of sorc-only splat book nukes like Wings of Flurry. Arcane Fusion/Spellsurge, etc... And all sorts of (often draconic) feats and other stuff to upgrade the nukes they already have.

And Archivist, and Artificer, and most of the other tier 1's and 2's. But seriously...people always treat sorcerers like they're not dangerous, it's annoying...

[Flickerdart]

You'd think the monk's spell resistance would serve him better when he's alone. Particularly against a group of level 12s or 13s. The casters would have to roll an 18 to beat his SR.

And he's got improved evasion too. And wisdom and still mind to help with will saves.
Oh sure, if you're still using spells that allow for SR, Reflex, or Will saves, then that might constitute a problem.

[Phelix-Mu]

The level 20 monk is fairly low CR for his class levels (using CR as an actual measure of challenge, mind you), but monk can go up pretty quickly by dipping a couple other class for just a few levels. Monks with access to UMD or wands from one spell list or another is substantially more viable, and a swordsage level or two and then a dip in Shadowsun Ninja can make the monk a real pain in the ass to fight (as long as he uses hit-and-run tactics and arranges things so he can heal himself easily with the SSN ability).

Like any underpowered class, a monk really needs to boost the challenge he can present by using the proper buffs, arranging some mooks to suck up party resources, and choosing terrain carefully. With ACFs like Standing Jump and Wallwalker from Dungeonscape, a monk can actually do some interesting stuff in an enclosed area. A tight, labyrinth-type area with narrow connections and crawlspaces between sections of the maze can help avoid the threats from flying enemies and large or larger summoned stuff. There are countermeasures for almost any advantage a party can cook up (at least until the Tier 1s get totally out of control), it's just the monk can't look to his monk levels to provide many of those countermeasures.

Also, to the earlier point about do significant npcs get character-grade WBL, I never really understood how non-pcs that do the same things pcs do somehow are automatically poorer. If they do as the murderhobo does, I say, let them have of the bigtime loot. Plus, how else is the monk going to afford that constant effect item of friendly fire?:smallamused:

[cosmonuts]

If they do as the murderhobo does, I say, let them have of the bigtime loot.

Hmm, it never really occurred to me before, but adventurers really are extralegal homicidal homeless people with assets stored as non-fungible high-risk capital.

That's a pretty sweet job, actually. The closest thing I can think of to this in real life is the CIA officers who handle arms trafficking back in the '70s and '80s.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, it never really occurred to me before, but adventurers really are extralegal homicidal homeless people with assets stored as non-fungible high-risk capital.

That's a pretty sweet job, actually. The closest thing I can think of to this in real life is the CIA officers who handle arms trafficking back in the '70s and '80s.

Yeah, well, the genre has had a bit of problem for a while in providing a basis for why many adventurers do what they do aside from greed. And, in more recent editions, adventuring has become much safer (as lethality in the ruleset has generally decreased substantially, but also in the general philosophy of the game), which of course begs the question "if this job is not total suicide, then why isn't everyone running around and ganking stuff for the chance to become unimaginably wealthy?"

The new answer is generally that not every person has the skills to cut it as an adventurer, but, really, skills is not really the word I would use to describe some of the published base classes. Some stuff like binder and warlock are literally totally stat-independent, and a number of others are virtually so. And even a Commoner 1 could have a decent setup with the right feat and some clever thinking, and could well survive a few bouts with goblins or whatever (as long as he brought some friends and a trained dog). Which would be well worth it, as his chance of surviving life's difficulties enormously increases with but a single level in a pc class.

[Flickerdart]

The new answer is generally that not every person has the skills to cut it as an adventurer, but, really, skills is not really the word I would use to describe some of the published base classes. Some stuff like binder and warlock are literally totally stat-independent, and a number of others are virtually so. And even a Commoner 1 could have a decent setup with the right feat and some clever thinking, and could well survive a few bouts with goblins or whatever (as long as he brought some friends and a trained dog). Which would be well worth it, as his chance of surviving life's difficulties enormously increases with but a single level in a pc class.
You said it yourself - with the right feats, it's possible to contribute...but you don't always get a chance to handle your education the way that, in retrospect, you would have liked to. So you get Joe Farmer with Skill Focus (Peasantry) who makes a good living doing what his father did before him. Sometimes, a crazy man with a fist made of soul energy will traipse through his town punching the local ne'er-do-well. Sometimes, Joe Farmer will follow that crazy man and learn how to do his own soul fist thing, and then not die the first time he tries it against a monster, and then not be convinced by his wife to drop the circus act and get back to taking care of the household. But this happens just often enough that you have a steady turnaround rate for adventurers, not often enough for everyone to start doing it.

[Phelix-Mu]

I just find it a slight loss of suspension. In real life, people travel huge distances, risk dying and interacting with thoroughly criminal types, and otherwise endure all manner of hardship just for a chance to have an honest job that could raise their economic level for themselves and their families. Greed/desperation/hope are incredibly powerful motivators, and while the odd dreamer and ne'er do wells of the D&D world have always looked to life on the road and a chance for "glory," it seems to me that it's increasingly the case that it's actually not a bad bit of risk to go out there with a bunch of friends and try to knock over a couple of goblins and take their stuff.

Basically, the fact that this doesn't happen just makes the average joe seem unrealistically stupid and tolerant of his crappy life. Statistically speaking, ofc, many people are stupid, and in groups, stupider still. But, there should be enough desperate idiots that would be willing to beat plowshares into swords, so to speak, and risk the farm for the chance that four commoners could beat a CR1 challenge. Granted, most of them probably die, so I guess that is something of a deterrent.

Anyway, veering back on topic.....

[atemu1234]

I once made a VoP monk. Picking the right feats and skills they can easily be a CR 20 encounter, but optimization-wise, it's difficult. Monks suck, and there's little to be done about it. Even my VoP monk would've been better as a Fighter 20 with VoP and Superior Unarmed Strike.

[Angelalex242]

Well...

There's two classes that do it for God. The Paladin and the Cleric both take their inspiration from the Crusades/Inquisition/Knights Templar/Arthurian Legend. The Knights of Camelot quest cause it's their job description, literally. Fight dragons, save damsels, it's literally their job.

Rangers and Druids do it for the environment and nature. They're a supernatural Sierra Club, but they aren't hiking to hell anytime soon.

Wizards and Sorcerers do it for cooler spells, probably.

Rogues and fighters and barbarians are the quintessential murderhobos.

Back on topic to the monk, they do it for the same reason every martial arts movie ever has somebody questing: Because their kung fu is weak, and they want it stronger. Everything from Bruce Lee to the Karate Kid are examples of questing monks.

[bekeleven]

Captnq would like a word with you all.
Feel free to quote the following. It will be as a stream of thought from reading what you are working. Or just rewrite it to what you need.

Monks is a curious class. Out of core, as written, it does not work well. Furthermore, it doesn't fulfill it's stated purpose. They created the class with something in mind, but in practice, it doesn't work out as they intended. It's sort of like Wizard. They expected wizards to all be evocation specialists. So they crafted monks to be Evocation Wizard killers. Well, nobody plays Evocation wizards and thus the monk fails at his role.

That said, the monk is a whole bundle of strange rules that combine in weird and interesting fashions that can be totally abused. There are many monk "fixes" over the years and these fixes actually do help. In fact, stacked on top of each other, they often come out as better then anyone else trying the same thing.

But you see, in order to play a monk, you have to forget what a monk is. Yes, I know, very Zen Like. Forget all you know, Student. For you are about to learn the ways of the Monk. The path of RAW-Fu.

----
BEFORE YOU TRY ANY OF THIS CRAP
Talk to your DM.

1. Warn him you are planning on playing a optimized monk. When he gets done laughing, tell him, “I’m serious.” He will wipe a tear away from the corner of his eye and then, giggling, put a hand on your shoulder and tell it, “I think I can handle it.” Take a deep breath and tell him, “Don’ say I didn’t warn you.”

2. Ask him how he views a monk’s unarmed attack. This is important as the view point of your DM on the origin of attacks from a body location perspective is paramount to how you build your monk. If your DM sees it one way, you need to optimize in one direction. If he sees it another, you have other options. One is more broken then the other. Let him choose:

2a) Monks get 9 attack locations (Head, L. Hand, R Hand, Left Elbow, Right Elbow, Left Knee, Right knee, Left foot, right foot.) There is some conjecture as to the reach of the head location. If you are using the only rules that define the head location, your forehead has a reach of 0 feet, which means it is only of use when you are grappling someone. Why is this important? Each location can be enchanted separately.

2b) Some DMs subscribe to the “whole body” approach. I do not think that RAW supports this, but there is some documentation to support this viewpoint. If you subscribe to this view point, The monk’s “whole body” is a weapon. If his whole body is a weapon, then you cannot enchant specific parts separately from other parts. You might think that this is a nerf of the monk’s abilities, but it isn’t. In fact, of the two view points, this is much more broken. If you have a choice, say, your DM says, “Pick one.” You should ALWAYS choose this option. You will see later.


3) Ask him how many weapons one can have ready. Now, official, by the rules, you can have two weapons ready. A primary and a secondary. You can have an unlimited number of natural attacks. You can attack with the same weapon multiple times, but you can’t attack with more then two weapons. This would imply that you have at maximum two weapons at the ready at any time. Even if you don’t attack with it, you are limited to two weapons.

Now, some DMs let you have an unlimited number of weapons at the ready. Boot blades, elbow blades, knee blades, horned helmet, gauntlets, shields, hand held weapons, armor spikes AND armor razors can all be worn by the same person. Many DMs make the mistake of allowing all to be at the ready, and therefore, any enchantment on any given weapon is always on. The actual RAW of the matter is up in the air. But this doesn’t apply to you.

As a monk, you have attacks that are Natural Weapons. That means all nine locations are at the ready no matter what the DM thinks. You can mix and match between all nine locations if you desire. Other classes cannot do that. This is an exploitable loophole. If your DM states that you can have only two locations “at the ready” you need to adjust your build accordingly. It actually isn’t that much of a draw back, but you just need to plan for it.


4a) Is he allowing Dragon Magazine? Specifically #359, Body Alteration. Why? Because you want caps on your knuckles. They gives your hands the same properties as the material you select. You want it to be masterwork, so the base cost is 610 gp plus double the cost of the material. The weight is 1 pound. The material doesn’t have to be the same for each hand. The magazine suggests silver or cold Iron. There is no reason you cannot use it on all nine combat locations. I suggest the following (prices for the material already doubled):
Cold Iron - 40 gp. Might as well get a cold iron elbow, just in case.
Deep Crystal - There are ways to get power points. You can spend 2 pp to increase the damage of deep crystal weapons by 2d6. It holds a charge for 1 minute. Cost 2,000 gp
Gold - Increases the damage by one size class. Unfortunately, the cost is based on damage, so you have to pay for the highest one 14,000 gp. Also, you will need an exotic weapon proficiency, or to enchant it with aptitude or you will have negatives to hit with your heavy hand.
Hizagkuur - Cost 3,000 gp. +1 electrical damage and +1 fire damage on every hit. Can’t beat that with a stick.
Katori Resin - For the x4 critical. There is no price, so you’d need to beat up a katori to make it.
Pandemonic Silver - This one takes some work. You need to take that feat, Versatile strike, that lets your unarmed strike be bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing. If you do, spend the 18,000 gp, your hand can now “unsheath” as a free action (considering that switching from bludgeoning to slashing and back again is a free action). As a DM, I would not allow you to use pandemoic silver’s fear property more then once a combat, but by raw, you can use this every round, at the very least. Why would you care? Well, Look at the section later on titled “It’s Raining Monks” and you’ll see why Pandemonic silver is evil in the hands (no pun intended) of a monk.
Riverine - This is just broken, but by the rules it’s RAW. The weight is one pound. Therefore Riverine feet cost 4,000 gp/each. If you have Riverine feet, your feet cannot be damaged by anything just like a wall of force. Therefore, if you are quick, you can run across lava or what not. Damned if I know how to even adjudicate that, but… ask your DM and watch him twitch.
Solanian true Steel - If you are going for a critical build, this gives you +1 to confirm criticals.
Starmetal - You will get Adamantine strike, sooner or later, but for 10,000 gp, this gives you a +1d6 against Extraplanar creatures. Keep it in mind if you got money to blow, or if you are switching out ki strike (adamantine) for something else.

BUT WAIT! That’s not all!
Why just have metal implanted into your body when you can have them custom made? You need to have those with templates!

Gloryborn: Extra 1,200 gp, but a +1 on a charge. As a monk, you should charge as much as possible.
Hellforged: An expensive 3,000 gp, but you get an extra point of damage for flanking.
Soulforged: 1,600 gp to do +2 damage to anyone who charges you.
Pitspawned: For 2,000 gp, you get +2 to confirm criticals.

Should you get all of these? Don’t know what your build is, but you need to keep them in mind because different builds have different perks.

4b) Under the rules, Clothing is Armor 0. If he isn’t allowing that, you need to know. If he is allowing monks to use AC 0 armor, then there is also implantable armor in the same dragon magazine. Now, unlike the metal knuckles, it specifically states you cannot use other armor with this. It does NOT state it takes up the body slot, so you can still wear magic robes and what not, UNLESS you enchant it. Since the point of getting this is to enchant it, you lose out on magical items for the body slot. Keep that in mind for your build.

It states the cost of the armor is 300 gp x the AC of the armor. So, AC: 0 is 300 gp x 0. +300 gp for masterwork, AC 0 masterwork implantable armor is 300 gp and does not interfere with a monk’s ability to perform monk things. Now, you can also add materials to your AC 0 armor, as well as templates at base cost for such things, as well as Armor Spikes. I’m on the fence about the spikes. I think they look cool and have many options. Your call. Materials are:
Adamantine - 5,000 gp for DR 1/-
Ferroplasm - 1,500 gp gives you a free non-magical +1 EB, but you have to be psionic to use it. Why does this matter? Then you don’t have to put another +1 into your armor. You can go straight to Armor Special Abilities. For example, a +1 EB and +1 ASA normally costs 4,000 gp. A Ferroplasm Subdermal armor with +1 ASA is only 2,500 gp. See? Cost savings. Alas, if you add any EBs later they don’t stack with the ferroplasm, so only do that if you are never going to up your armor’s EB.
Livewood - Run this one by your DM. Implant livewood under your skin. You now qualify for Tree Stride wherever you are. Weird and unique combo? Yes. But might be of use to someone out there. Have a dryad live in your Subdermal armor. What’s that good for? Damned if I know.
Sentira - Emotional Armor. Not a big fan, but vengeful might be cool.
Suslian Chainweave - Very expensive at 28,000 gp, but it’s a DR 3/slashing for light armor. Keep it in mind, if you got money to blow.
Ysgardian heartwire - 1,500 gp to have your AC increased by +2 vrs confirming criticals. Normally I would never bother getting it, except that it’s Heartwire, and in this case it literally is wire around your heart.

Again, Template wise:
Gloryborn: 150 gp for +1 to AC while charging.
Pitspawned: 600 gp Everytime someone strikes you in melee, it does 1 point of unblockable, immune to DR damage to them. Now then, if you wish, for 2,000 gp you could have your Subdermal armor built out of Hizagkuur (gives you a minor 2 points of cold resistance). Since your armor is damaging your targets, it’s acting as a weapon. As a weapon it does 1 point electrical and 1 point fire.


5) IT’S RAINING MONKS!

So, your DM has ruled that a monk’s whole body is a weapon. Great! Buy yourself a necklace of natural weaponry. Take throwing. Get ranged. Now you can throw yourself up to 100 feet as an attack. Oh, don’t worry. You don’t plan on throwing yourself at your enemies. You might miss. No no no. The rules state to hit a specific square is AC 5. You are -2 to hit for every range increment, and your range increment is 20. You will rarely be throwing yourself more then 50 feet to begin with, until you get up to really high levels. So your target number is usually going to be around 11.

Where are you aiming? Above your target, as far as you can safely fall. You see, the slow fall rules are very specific, they say YOU don’t take any damage. They don’t say anything about what you hit. Getting hit with falling objects has nothing to do with how fast it’s falling, only how heavy and how far. Besides, slow fall isn’t like feather fall. You don’t fall 60 feet a round. You fall 150 feet the first round, 300 on the second, etc etc… just like normal falling.

Now wait, you need a wall to fall next to!

No, you need something sturdy. A wall will do, but so will a statue, a strong tree, a really tall giant, an immovable rod, or even the ceiling. You only need to be in contact with it at some point during that fall that round. Nothing in the description of slow fall says it needs to be continuous. You could fall 60 feet and if the wall is only the last 5 feet, that’s fine. If you touch the ceiling at the start of your fall, and your fall is in this round, then that’s fine too. And I would point out it says Arm’s Reach. So if you get your reach up to 40 feet, that gives you a lot more room to maneuver where you are falling. Is this RAI? Hell no. RAW? You betcha.

Why do you want to fall?

Well, the “hit by falling objects rules” are fairly clear. Your average adventurer is about 200 lbs. He does 1d6 points of damage for every 10 feet he falls and hits someone, up to 20d6 damage. There is no saving throw. There is no to hit. There is no dodge, or maneuver, or side step. You fall as a free action, instantly. Wham. You take no damage, your target takes 1d6 for every 5 feet. Or if you hit yourself with enlarge, your weight is now x4, so you do 4d6 damage for the first 10 feet, +1d6 for every 10 feet after that.

You are a monk special weapon. You can throw yourself as many times in a round as your flurry of blows.

Let’s have some fun. 12th level monk. Slow fall 60 feet. 4 attacks, he can throw himself 4 times. He’s enlarged so 9d6 if he can hit AC 11 to target the right square above his enemies heads. He falls as a free action. Wham. Throws himself back up. Wham. Repeat. Wham. Repeat. Wham.

Now out in a wide open area, this won’t work so much. Or it needs some planning, because an immovable rod is a move action to activate. This isn’t a trick you’ll be doing every day, but walking down the street with buildings on either side, oh yeah. And how does the target defend themselves? There is an ASA called impact that halves the damage, but other then that, damned if I know.

He can’t move on your turn. Falling objects hit the target without a to hit roll. You just need to make sure the falling object hits the right square. Hence why I think there is a to hti roll to “hit” the right square to fall from. But that’s conjecture. By RAW, you just throw yourself into the air and you can land in any square you want. No roll. No way to resist, nothing.

Now, if your DM is freaking out about this, I have some sort of rule based suggestion. Now, you have to make a tumbling roll to avoid someone when moving through this square. This is a free action. So I propose, unless the target is flat footed, he gets a tumbling roll vrs your tumbling roll to avoid getting hit by you. That seems fair and is much less likely to get you beaten to death by your DM with a 2nd Edition DMG (those things had some heft to them).

AND that brings us back to pandemic silver. Since your hand can change between bludgeoning, slashing and back again as a free action, you can draw as a free action. So what’s the speed of the air while you are falling? Damned if I know, but it would increase the save DC of the fear effect of “unsheathing” a pandemic silver weapon is you do it dropping out of the sky. Is this one pushing it? Oh yeah. But this is a list of ways to get the DM to want to ban monks, so there you go.

(if this isn’t convincing your DM to consider every body part a separate weapon, I don’t know what will.)


6) If your DM views the whole monk body as a one weapon, then your body is a weapon. Therefore you are a manufactured weapon and a valid target for Hardening spell. Find a 20th level caster. Get this cast on you, because it’s permanent. You now have hardness 10.

Hardness is weird. You subtract hardness from all attacks. Also Double hardness against Fire and Electrical attacks. Multiply it by four for sonic attacks. Multiply it by 2 for ranged attacks. Yeah, you read that right. 10 points of hardness on a monk is 20 points of DR against ranged objects.

Since the spell hardening is Permanent, this is most likely the most broken spell ever for a monk. However, it only interacts this way for a monk. If someone else takes Improved Unarmed Strike, it only gives you use of your fists. Only under the entry of the class feature of monk does it give any inclination that the whole body is a weapon.


7) The WSA Flying is only +1 bonus. Put in a Necklace of natural weapons, if your whole body is a weapon, then you now have the ability to fly 30 feet AS AN ANIMATED OBJECT. In other words, your own body gets to act without you, being about as smart as a skeleton. You have to give it voice commands, but you can order your body to fly 30 feet, then attack someone (at BAB +0), then you can take your full round action. You can even give it a standing order like: If I am ever killed, get away and go back to this church. Your body might not make it, but it will certainly try.

I once worked out that to completely destroy a human body via hit points, you need to inflict somewhere around 300 points of damage. That seems kind of high. I’d put it more around 50, which is the amount to instantly kill someone. That’s just me, however. So if your body is still acting after you are dead, you are beyond raise dead if you take an additional 50 points of damage, or something. There are no rules on this. Again, talk to your DM.


8) Now that we have your base fist, You can put enchantments on that. Your necklace of natural attacks adds WSAs to that, so make sure whatever you select for the two can stack. You can get bracers of striking, but they are expensive. Still, they stack WSAs on your fists. Also, you can get battle gauntlets or ward cestus for your hands. I recommend battle gauntlets. Why?

Because battle gauntlets don’t do anything. They do the exact same damage as your base unarmed attack. So, we can make the battle gauntlets out of some other material, enchant them with WSAs, and everything will stack. Please keep in mind your hands at 16th level are like adamantine. Also, battle gauntlets are one-handed, so you can two hand wield them when fighting. Still, Ward Cestus is a light weapon and has some perks as well. Try this:

So get gold knuckles. Then you get Gold Ward Cestus. Now your hands are two size classes bigger then normal. Hey, they don’t stack! Same Source! Okay, one is gold and one is platinum. Same effect. But But But… Hey! This is RAW, baby. Optimization at it’s finest! You really can’t do this with anyone else and get away with it effectively. Plus we are talking two feats (One for your hand, one for the gold battle gauntlets) just to pull this off, or extra enchantment. This all isn’t cheap. It’s going to cost you. So the knee jerk response to say “no”, is wrong because that’s what happens with monks.

So you can get 4 different sourced of WSAs on the same attack. Some fun combos are: Taking everything that adds energy damage (I figured out how to get 15d6+1 fire or electrical damage) or a whole slew of other interesting WSAs. I happen to have a handbook about that. It’s in my sig file. Go take a look. It’s fairly cheap to get say +15 bonuses on your fists, as compared to the cost for anyone else to get a +15 weapon.

[toapat]

Captnq would like a word with you all.

So an Optimized monk fights as mario?

[StreamOfTheSky]

There is no strict limit to how many weapons you can have "ready" (god, I hate using the word in that sense when Readied Actions are a thing), there may be TWF for people w/o many limbs, but each attack you make can be with a different weapon if you so choose. If you have a BAB of +11/+6/+1, you could use anywhere between 1-3 different weapons for those attacks. If you tacked on TWF and ITWF, you could potentially use up to 5 weapons. Note that some weapon combos might require Quickdraw and dropping/throwing others, but it's totally core and not hard to do. Even beyond your attack routine, there's the possibility of Whirlwind Attack, of other bonus attack sources like Improved Trip, and attacks of opportunity (which usually, but *not always* happen out of turn), among other things. In any case for a normal human, at any distinct instant of time, he could have two weapons in hand, plus unarmed strike (which is your entire body and can be used even if hands are full), plus natural weapons (minus slams and claws on limbs using weapons), plus all the other random weird crap out there (armor spiked, boot blades, etc...)

I guess what he's getting at is how many weapons can be "wielded" at a time, which has been argued and debated for eons. I try to be lax with it to help out the martials, but I don't like cheesy exploits, either. All the above did was remind me why I severely restrict dragon magazine and often nerf cheap weapon properties that work better on "a stick I hold" than "the weapon I fight with."

I guess kudos for him not even mentioning Martial Monk's pre-req free fighter feats amidst all that cheese.
Ironically, I have less of a problem with that, other than how good of a dip it is. If Martial Monk had some clause that as soon as you multiclass out, you suddenly must meet the pre-reqs for your bonus feats or lose them, it'd be a totally balanced class. Hell, give 'em more bonus feat slots.