Ranger looking to retrain Vital Strike

[OverdrivePrime]

I play a 10th level ranger in a fairly high-power but resource poor Pathfinder game. My companions are a gnome witch played by a newbie, a horc fighter (intimidate focus), a necromancer wizard and an angel of some sort. (The person who is playing the ranger had her drow druid get mostly-killed. The angel is temporary.)

My ranger is the diplomat and skill monkey for the group, and I'm also usually sicc'ed on bosses. In a fight with a boss, my character out-does the fighter for damage (thanks to the guide archetype) - I usually have lead blades up on my +3 adamantine bastard sword and am power attacking away for 2d8+27 damage. So that's fairly tolerable.

Flexibility tends to be his focus. It's why he wields a bastard sword, it's why his skills are spread all over the map, and it's kept him and his party alive for about a year of play.

My DM is finally letting me retrain Vital Strike, which I took at 7th level, re-read the rules and then cursed heartily. I haven't used the feat once in the last 15 sessions.

I'm trying to figure out what I should retrain it for, and I'm running into a wall. My will save is a lot lower than I'd like it to be, but Iron Will seems like a waste. I'd like more options in combat, but we don't tend to find many humanoid enemies or enemies with weapons, so Disarm, Sunder and Trip are suboptimal.

We do tend to fight a lot of gigantic otherworldly monsters (we're currently fighting an adult red dragon... it is made of pain!) as well as both demons and devils. The DM has a soft-spot for devils, so I expect we'll see more of those. Assuming I survive the fight we'll probably hit level 11 as well, so I've got another feat coming.

TLDR: I need to retrain Vital Strike. What should I get instead? (I can't retrain other feats at this time) I have the following combat-related feats:

Power Attack
Endurance
Furious Focus
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Cleave
Vital Strike
Cleaving Finish
Great Cleave

[Stormageddon]

How about Dreadful Carnage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dreadful-carnage-combat) . You met the requirements, and free action debuffs are always good.

[MightyPirate]

If you're playing in Varisia then Big Game Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/local-feats/big-game-hunter-local) might be in order.

If you can retrain the bastard sword proficiency as well you might also look at picking up a falchion with improved critical and critical focus. That's a nice set up for critical feats if you think you'll make it to a higher level. I like Staggering Critical, Blinding Critical, and Stunning Critical.

[Snowbluff]

How about Dreadful Carnage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dreadful-carnage-combat) . You met the requirements, and free action debuffs are always good.

Cornugon Smash is better. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat)

Add in Shatter Defenses. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final)

I heard there was a feat to sicken a foe who is already shaken.

[OverdrivePrime]

Alas, my ranger has full ranks in Diplomacy, but none in Intimidate. The half orc fighter in our party loves Cornugon smash!

I've been eyeing up Blind Fight, as we've been facing a number of enemies with the ability to go invisible, and that doesn't show signs of stopping. I know a Blind Man's Fold gives Improved Blind Fight, but I don't really want to run around blind all the time, nor will I have the time to put a blindfold on in the middle of a fight. And I honestly can't afford it. Our party is extremely short on gold and gems, and no magic marts exist nearby.

[NightbringerGGZ]

What race are you playing? Surprise Follow-Through (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/surprise-follow-through-combat-orc-half-orc) could be a nice option. If you have 14 or more Dexterity, Combat Reflexes can be nice. Dodge, Toughness or Improved Initiative are good choices too. Or shoot, you may just want to go for Skill Focus: Diplomacy if you want to make sure you land those Diplomacy rolls.

[OverdrivePrime]

What race are you playing? Surprise Follow-Through (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/surprise-follow-through-combat-orc-half-orc) could be a nice option. If you have 14 or more Dexterity, Combat Reflexes can be nice. Dodge, Toughness or Improved Initiative are good choices too. Or shoot, you may just want to go for Skill Focus: Diplomacy if you want to make sure you land those Diplomacy rolls.

Human. Always human.
Dodge is useful at lower levels, but now that we're level 10, I just get hit. Period. With Barkskin and Cat's Grace up, I've got an AC of 23. Most of the combat-focused creatures we're up against have a to-hit bonus of at least +20. I get clobbered unless my DM rolls terribly.

I've a dex of 12, usually pumped up to 16 with Cat's Grace for the reflex, skill and initiative boost if I know a fight is coming.

If I can find something to give a permanent Dex boost, Combat Reflexes would definitely make sense.

I'd much rather pick up a feat to help with offense rather than defense. So long as we can connect, the fighter and I can put most threats down in a two rounds, thanks to caster support. After that we get healed up and are ready for the next challenger.

[upho]

If your DM's OK with it (and he should be), I'd definitely go with Martial Training I from Path of War and grab for example the Scarlet Zweihander stance (+2 dodge, +1d6 dmg) and maybe Red Zephyr's Strike. For even more fun, grab Tactical Rush as your level 11 feat, giving you a swift action full speed move once per encounter.

If your DM won't allow PoW, I'd probably start looking at the Dirty Trick chain. It's hellishly long but at least DT works against all sizes and in all levels, and can often be tactically useful against more powerful enemies even though it eats one of your attacks or more. But I'd also probably combine that with a Lore Warden dip for free CE and bonus feats. Ask your DM if he's OK with you taking a retroactive level of lore warden.

EDIT: You could of course also pick up Lunge. Never a wasted feat slot IME.

If your DM actually won't accept either of these options, you should go totally Priest on him - as in "Breaking the Law"! :smallbiggrin:

....

BTW, happened to check out your Metal Phoenix PrC, and I think it rocks JPM! Hard!

[OverdrivePrime]

Nice! We haven't picked up Path of War yet, but the DM and I were both big fans of the ToB for 3.5. If I buy the PoW books, I'm pretty sure he'll allow it. Is it out in game stores, or just available online?

Thanks for checking out the Metal Phoenix! I've had a lot of fun with that in several campaigns.

[deuxhero]

Lunge would be better with a reach weapon, but it's an option.

[Snowbluff]

Nice! We haven't picked up Path of War yet, but the DM and I were both big fans of the ToB for 3.5. If I buy the PoW books, I'm pretty sure he'll allow it. Is it out in game stores, or just available online?

Thanks for checking out the Metal Phoenix! I've had a lot of fun with that in several campaigns.

I think some of it has been released. DSP is releasing it in parts.

Oh, by the way, there's a neat little bug I don't think they fixed. One of the PrCs casts off of your initiator stat, so if you enter with a feat that gives the associated skill's stat as the Istat, you can cast off of dex. Then you add in an actual initiator that uses a mental skill as an Istat. That way, you'll be casting with your body and fighting with your mind. :smallbiggrin:

[Sayt]

If your DM's OK with it (and he should be), I'd definitely go with Martial Training I from Path of War and grab for example the Scarlet Zweihander stance (+2 dodge, +1d6 dmg) and maybe Red Zephyr's Strike. For even more fun, grab Tactical Rush as your level 11 feat, giving you a swift action full speed move once per encounter.

If your DM won't allow PoW, I'd probably start looking at the Dirty Trick chain. It's hellishly long but at least DT works against all sizes and in all levels, and can often be tactically useful against more powerful enemies even though it eats one of your attacks or more. But I'd also probably combine that with a Lore Warden dip for free CE and bonus feats. Ask your DM if he's OK with you taking a retroactive level of lore warden.

EDIT: You could of course also pick up Lunge. Never a wasted feat slot IME.

If your DM actually won't accept either of these options, you should go totally Priest on him - as in "Breaking the Law"! :smallbiggrin:

....

BTW, happened to check out your Metal Phoenix PrC, and I think it rocks JPM! Hard!

Martial Training I doesn't get you a stance, just two maneuvers,you need to get to Martial Training III to get a stance. Honestly? I'd also see about retraining off Cleave/Great Cleave as well cleaving finish for more Martial Training, as it'd almost always seem to be better than cleaving, and if you get PoW, there are maneuvers which are as good or better than cleaving as a standard. You'll need to put ranks in Knowledge(Martial), and probably want to put some in Sense motive if you go into the Scarlet Throne discipline.


Nice! We haven't picked up Path of War yet, but the DM and I were both big fans of the ToB for 3.5. If I buy the PoW books, I'm pretty sure he'll allow it. Is it out in game stores, or just available online?

Thanks for checking out the Metal Phoenix! I've had a lot of fun with that in several campaigns.

Path of War is available online. There's a subscription which is pretty cheap, which gets you the three bases classes out so far, the schools they can access, and the supplementary content (feats, archetypes and PRCs, mostly).

[upho]

Martial Training I doesn't get you a stance, just two maneuvers,you need to get to Martial Training III to get a stance. Honestly? I'd also see about retraining off Cleave/Great Cleave as well cleaving finish for more Martial Training, as it'd almost always seem to be better than cleaving, and if you get PoW, there are maneuvers which are as good or better than cleaving as a standard. You'll need to put ranks in Knowledge(Martial), and probably want to put some in Sense motive if you go into the Scarlet Throne discipline.Ouch, you're right about MT and stances, sorry about that. And I totally agree, MT I-III would be a significantly better use of feat slots than Vital Strike, Cleave etc.




Path of War is available online. There's a subscription which is pretty cheap, which gets you the three bases classes out so far, the schools they can access, and the supplementary content (feats, archetypes and PRCs, mostly).The subscription is a real bargain IMO. PoW 1 hasn't been fully released yet, and they've already nearly finished PoW 2, including even more base classes, PrCs, disciplines, feats, archetypes and items. Check out the playtest thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308912-PF-DSP-Dreamscarred-Press-announces-ToB-inspired-product-II-The-Rematch/page25) and Elricaltovilla's stalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317986-PF-Striking-from-the-Shadows-a-Guide-to-the-PoW-Stalker) warder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348363-Defending-the-Weak-A-Guide-to-the-PoW-Warder-WIP) and warlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?334608-PF-Leading-the-Battle-A-Guide-to-the-PoW-Warlord&p=17107701#post17107701) guides!

[OverdrivePrime]

I love the fight with mental stats, cast with physical stats trick. Fun!

And yeah - great call on ditching cleave & friends. They just don't get any use. We tend not to fight mobs of low-CR creatures, usually 1-3 CR-appropriate or CR+ antagonists. So I have 3 feats invested into something that might hit once a fight. We have a witch that can easily take care of low-level enemies.

Scarlet Throne definitely seems like it's right up my ranger's alley. I'll petition for serious retraining and let you guys know how it turns out.