Optimizer in a non-optimized Party... what should I do?

[Dusk Eclipse]

A friend of mine invited me to play in a campaign with some new players starting at level 3. The problem is that I'm the only optimizer in the party with a complete newbie, as in our fist session was her first D&D session ever. The party consist of a Half-Orc Monk, a Half-Orc Paladin, a human wizard and a TWF Elven paladin (the new girl), the problem is that I originally brought a Ranger/Wizard who I intended in becoming a Gish, but I feel it would step in the ranger's toes, so I'm changing character, but what can I do? I don't want to overshadow anyone but considering the party's make-up I think that would be really difficult.

Anyway, the game is level 3 with access to Core+Complete series, other books are on a case by case basis.

Thanks in advance.

[Kazudo]

You could optimize yourself a DMM Cleric, since it appears to be what the group's missing.

EDIT: The group ALSO appears to be missing a rogue, so you could do a nice Factotum build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The problem isn't knowing what to optimize, I can do that myself. The Problem is that I don't want to overshadow anyone

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'll assume that it's too late to change your character, since playing a low tier enabler is usually the ideal for playing with newbie groups.

How much Wizard and Ranger are in your build so far? If the Ranger is a dip, I'd suggest pretty much ignoring it and being a Wizard a few spell levels down with extra hp, saves and skills. For your actual wizarding lean towards buffing and debuffing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ranger 2/Wizard 1, but we already have a Wizard in the party; I'm not sure about his spell list though, he spent the session being a glorified encyclopaedia

[Kazudo]

The problem isn't knowing what to optimize, I can do that myself. The Problem is that I don't want to overshadow anyone

Well, you lack a rogue or int-based skill monkey of any kind. A rogue wouldn't be getting in anyone's way.

[A_S]

The two pieces of advice I've commonly heard for this situation are:

1: pick a concept that's inherently weak, then optimize it to the best of your ability.

2: pick a concept whose strength is in its ability to help out allies, allowing you to out-contribute your party members without making the game less fun for them.

Why not go for the best of both worlds and try to optimize the hell out of the (notoriously low-impact) in-combat healer role?

[A.A.King]

The best to think of something that doesn't overshadow the rest of the party is to see what exactly it is the rest of the party is doing and then try to do something else. A simple way is to just support

How about a bard? You could support the damage dealers with Inspire Courage/Dragon Fire Inspiration, not overshadow. You could fill the face role (I'm guessing that the Half-Orc Paladin is lacking on the social skill side) and with Healing Hymn and Healthful Rest + Summon Elysian Thrush you could help everyone recover hit points.

EDIT: And to make sure you don't overshadow the Encyclopedia you use Bardic Knack to do all the skills no-one else can.

[The Insanity]

It doesn't matter what you play. As long as you realize you can overshadow your teammates you can play whatever you like and just, you know, not overshadow them by holding back.
Unless you don't like to hold back, in which case my advise is moot.

[malonkey1]

Play a Cleric or Wizard, but optimize them to buff your party, and help them to shine better.

[Angelalex242]

Who in their right mind picks a charisma penalty race for Paladin?

That's not just low op, that's actively hurting yourself. Bah. Well, can't fix stupid.

[John Longarrow]

Playing Marshal-1/Rogue-1/Warlock-1.

You can do a LOT, but you don't really do anything all that great.
Max SPOT/LISTEN/SEARCH/DIS DEV/OPEN LOCK.

Let your elvish Paladin play party face.

You get to be that dark, quiet fellow who sits to the side, hears what the rest have to say, then you put your two cents in.
You listen much, speak seldom. When you speak, you explain WHY someone should do WHAT, and WHY that WHAT must be done.

You are, the MENTOR

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make a Bard with a bow, optimize Inspire Courage, pick spells to buff the party, and be able to take care of traps. Maybe something like Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Savage Bard 2+, using the Trap Expert ACF for Ranger. Get Able Learner so you can keep up your ranks in the necessary trapmonkey skills, and after Bard 8 dip a single level of Mindbender or Dragon Devotee or Sorcerer if using DFI, then go into Sublime Chord afterward. Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) to help your limited spells known, and don't forget you can freely use wands of any spell on the Ranger spell list with only one level in it. Make your ancestral relic an Elvencraft Composite Longbow that's masterwork three times with three wand chambers, and you can make the quarterstaff portion your runestaff.

[Seerow]

I vote for one of:

-Einhander fencer. Try to get it on a base that has decent skills so you can fill in gaps for the party. But seriously we've gone over on the forum multiple times how bad this style is, optimizing it to your fullest should still leave the Orc Paladin and Monk to feel useful.

-Healer. Only caster in your group is a Wizard who apparently doesn't know how to wizard very well. Pick up a different full caster that is much weaker and optimize that. Wu-Jen might be another decent choice, or a Favored Soul with a spell list selected to play down to the party's level.


Actually now that I think of it combining the two and doing a Favored Soul fencing master might be fun. Focus spells on party buffs and the cleric skillmonkey spells (to make up for that 2+int skills per level), with maybe a couple of personal buff spells (I mean... you are doing a einhander build, you might need it). Dump wisdom entirely to keep your save DCs really low and focus on support.

[KorbeltheReader]

This looks like a great party for a grizzled old skillmonkey rogue (or scout, or archery ranger, or maybe bard) who's seen it all and is willing to mentor the PCs. He's an old hand at dungeoneering, is generous with the "pro tips" for all sorts of scenarios, and has fought with enough adventurers to have an idea of what everyone in the party has the potential to do. Perhaps he even was a lvl 20 who got level drained all the way down to 1 by some powerful creature, forced to be its servant for a long time, and just recently broke out. He made it back up to 3 between that and when he meets up with the party.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The best to think of something that doesn't overshadow the rest of the party is to see what exactly it is the rest of the party is doing and then try to do something else. A simple way is to just support

How about a bard? You could support the damage dealers with Inspire Courage/Dragon Fire Inspiration, not overshadow. You could fill the face role (I'm guessing that the Half-Orc Paladin is lacking on the social skill side) and with Healing Hymn and Healthful Rest + Summon Elysian Thrush you could help everyone recover hit points.

EDIT: And to make sure you don't overshadow the Encyclopedia you use Bardic Knack to do all the skills no-one else can.


Make a Bard with a bow, optimize Inspire Courage, pick spells to buff the party, and be able to take care of traps. Maybe something like Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Savage Bard 2+, using the Trap Expert ACF for Ranger. Get Able Learner so you can keep up your ranks in the necessary trapmonkey skills, and after Bard 8 dip a single level of Mindbender or Dragon Devotee or Sorcerer if using DFI, then go into Sublime Chord afterward. Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) to help your limited spells known, and don't forget you can freely use wands of any spell on the Ranger spell list with only one level in it. Make your ancestral relic an Elvencraft Composite Longbow that's masterwork three times with three wand chambers, and you can make the quarterstaff portion your runestaff.

I like the bard idea, I've never really used them before.


Who in their right mind picks a charisma penalty race for Paladin?

That's not just low op, that's actively hurting yourself. Bah. Well, can't fix stupid.

The Racial Substitution levels for Half-Orc paladins aren't bad, and IIRC he had a decent charisma (16 post racial I think).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I like the bard idea, I've never really used them before.

Obligatory Bard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0) link.

If you go with DFI, you'll want to use Silverbrow Human. In any case you'll want to use flaws, I'd recommend City Slicker and Love of Nature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30). This is mostly because you have to take flaws during character creation, but don't have to take them at 1st level if you're making a character higher level than 1st. This allows you to take feats at 2nd level after you've taken your first level of Bard.

Go Fast Movement Ranger 1/ Savage Bard 8/ Dragonblood Sorcerer or Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Full Casting PrCs 8 (Abjurant Champion 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 3 works). Get Able Learner and either Mercantile Background (PGtF) or Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) at 1st, Melodic Casting and Dragonfire Inspiration at 2nd, and Ancestral Relic at 3rd. Trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack, Fascinate for Healing Hymn, Countersong for Spellbreaker Song, and Suggestion for Song of the Heart. The Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level gives you Draconic Heritage, pick Battle Dragon to switch Dragonfire Inspiration to sonic damage. You may want to consider that Sorcerer dip earlier if you want to use a Wand of Wings of Cover, which takes the same action to activate as the spell's casting time per Rules Compendium. Take Words of Creation (BoED) at 9th level, you can use a Headband of Int or an Enhancement bonus to Int added to a head-slot item (MIC p234) to help qualify. Start out with a Badge of Valor (MIC) and the spell Inspirational Boost (SC), and your next items should be Arcane Thieves' Tools (MIC), an Anklet of Translocation (MIC), and a Healing Belt (MIC). If you switch your DFI to sonic damage, be sure to learn the spell Creaking Cacophony (SC).

Your Ancestral Relic is an Elvencraft Composite Longbow, from Races of the Wild, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a composite longbow. It needs to be made masterwork three times since a quarterstaff is a double weapon, you need to magically upgrade all three weapon portions separately, so it should be able to have mundane upgrades on all three weapon portions separately such as Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape. As long as you're holding this item, all three wands it contains will be considered held and ready to be used, but keep in mind that its price (1,600 gp nonmagical, or 1,200 with Mercantile Background) must come out of your starting gear. Eventually make the bow portion an Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), since you can freely dictate what magical properties any portion of the item has as long as its total value falls within the limits of Ancestral Relic. Also plan to make both Quarterstaff ends +1 Defending, and use Greater Magic Weapon on each to put a greater bonus toward your AC, keeping in mind that Defending stacks with all other bonuses including other Defending bonuses. Good wands to use with that include Benign Transposition (SC), Swift Invisibility (SC), Entangle, Camouflage (SC), and Wings of Cover (RotD). You can also use Eternal Wands (MIC) of any arcane spell regardless of what spell list it's from, such as Hound of Doom (CW).

[pilvento]

I second the bard idea. Noone will complain about being overshadowed if your role is to make the others shine.

And if you dont want to roptimize too much you can go Warchanter. If you like to keep spellcasting then you know there are even more choices.

[Brookshw]

Buff bot, helps the newbies out, won't overshadow.

[Blackhawk748]

This looks like a great party for a grizzled old skillmonkey rogue (or scout, or archery ranger, or maybe bard) who's seen it all and is willing to mentor the PCs. He's an old hand at dungeoneering, is generous with the "pro tips" for all sorts of scenarios, and has fought with enough adventurers to have an idea of what everyone in the party has the potential to do. Perhaps he even was a lvl 20 who got level drained all the way down to 1 by some powerful creature, forced to be its servant for a long time, and just recently broke out. He made it back up to 3 between that and when he meets up with the party.

This is awesome, i recommend doing it as an Elven Scout (acting more like a rogue) and just run with the Grizzled Veteran schtick. Maybe even go Combat Trapsmith

[Demidos]

VOP Expert....you have been challenged :smallbiggrin:

[malonkey1]

VOP Expert....you have been challenged :smallbiggrin:

Hardcore Mode: VoP Pig-Bound Commoner.

[Zman]

Have you considered going outside of your comfort zone. Play a themed character without the optimal choices? How about an Aasimar Favored Soul? Straight Half Elf fighter with just power attack, leave the Shock Trooper, Leap Attack etc at home.

Pick fitting or fun feat, not the best choices scavenged from all the matierial. Pick themed spells and not the optimal choice. Leave sleep and color spray at home and choose magic missile etc.

Try going outside of your comfort zone and experience the game in a new way, you may enjoy it. Anyone optimized far outside of those around them puts a strain on a game, even an optimized buffer.

[cosmonuts]

Hardcore Mode: VoP Pig-Bound Commoner.

OK, how do I do this. Is this even possible?

[ngilop]

Who in their right mind picks a charisma penalty race for Paladin?

That's not just low op, that's actively hurting yourself. Bah. Well, can't fix stupid.

I find that calling somebody stupid over the fact they wanted to be a half orc paladin because they did not do it for op sake but for 'hey, I wanna be a half-orc paladin' to be highly offensive.


but its actually a common trend I see on this site really.

ive never understood why people feel the need to insult and deride others because they do not optimize or pick a less than 100% perfect race/feat/class/wtf eve because that's what would bring them the most enjoyment in a game that SHOULD be aout getting together with friends and enjoying yourself.

sorry if I am going off here, but I've been called stupid, a chump and other less than kind names and it does not make one wanna continue in on a game where people can be so mean over something so completely pointless.

[The Glyphstone]

Who in their right mind picks a charisma penalty race for Paladin?

That's not just low op, that's actively hurting yourself. Bah. Well, can't fix stupid.

Answer: Someone smart enough to realize Charisma is not a Paladin's primary stat. Paladins prioritize STR, CON, CHA, WIS/DEX -so Half-Orc Paladin, recieving a Str bonus, is not a bad choice (the Int penalty is a non-factor).


EDIT: On-topic....I definitely think you should go with the Dragonfire buff-bard idea. You can be the skillmonkey the group needs, not the skillmonkey it deserves, and in combat you will give everyone extra damage dice to roll. Rolling fistfuls of dice is always fun, especially in low-op groups.

[malonkey1]

OK, how do I do this. Is this even possible?

Exactly. That's why it's hardcore mode.

[The Glyphstone]

Exactly. That's why it's hardcore mode.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

If you have an extremely large appetite, the live pig could be considered 'one day's worth of food'. Just make sure the sack you're carrying it in has holes for your hands and is loose enough for the pig to breathe. This requires another character to hand-feed you each day for two levels, but at 5th level you will no longer need to eat. But you can fight at relative full effectiveness in the meantime, since you don't need open hands to use unarmed attacks.

[Dimcair]

I would warn you about playing a sole supporting/healing role. It can be very, very boring.

The supporting in itself is the right advice, but I find buffing and healing not rewarding.

I rather debuff/control the enemy and make the combat easier for my teammates. A more 'active' supporting if you will.

[Angelalex242]

My paladins (and I play them frequently) favor Cha, Str, Con/Wis, Dex>=12, Int in that order. I never let Dex go below 12, personally, as AC is very important, and so is Reflex.

Prioritizing Str and Con makes them a less effective Fighter/Barbarian. Charisma gives them pretty much all their goodies, and the more so in Pathfinder, when you finally don't need Wisdom anymore.

And anyways, Con and Cha give the paladin equal amounts of HP, when you think about it.

HP is level*con of bonus hp. Lay on hands is level*cha of bonus hp. Only with Lay on Hands, you don't have to keep them for yourself if you don't want to. You can give them away. But a Paladin's 'base' HP is 'actual HP+LoH if he needs it.'

What about Fort Saves? Anything Con can do Cha can do better.

Though in fairness to the halforc, I suppose he could bypass the problem by using that 'Serenity' feat to change all his cha stuff to wisdom, and thereby bypass the whole thing.

[Thealtruistorc]

Ohhhhhhh here's where I like to do the most insane experimental builds imagineable. Go nuts with whatever strange builds you can think of. Take the opportunity to build a fighter based entirely on sundering, or maybe try a stealthy cleric who tumbles around the battlefield healing people. It doesn't matter how well it functions, because anyone playing a dual-sword elf paladin won't be able to make judgement calls on the logic of your playstyle.

[torrasque666]

I find that calling somebody stupid over the fact they wanted to be a half orc paladin because they did not do it for op sake but for 'hey, I wanna be a half-orc paladin' to be highly offensive.


but its actually a common trend I see on this site really.

ive never understood why people feel the need to insult and deride others because they do not optimize or pick a less than 100% perfect race/feat/class/wtf eve because that's what would bring them the most enjoyment in a game that SHOULD be about getting together with friends and enjoying yourself.

sorry if I am going off here, but I've been called stupid, a chump and other less than kind names and it does not make one wanna continue in on a game where people can be so mean over something so completely pointless.

Because apparently too many people have forgotten what the purpose of the game is, and/or have such a superiority complex that they can't fathom someone thinking something else might be "fun".

[da_chicken]

Just change your optimization goals. Stop optimizing for mechanical power and giant numbers, and start optimizing for fun. Make your characters interesting and unique without making them cheesy or abusive. Build that into an interesting character that you'll enjoy playing because you think it's a cool character. Winning encounters with abusive characters isn't particularly interesting, really. Winning them with fair characters is a lot more challenging and (IMX) enjoyable.

The easy way to start this is to pick a single base class and a single prestige class.

[pilvento]

As the others said, buffing/healing can be a sort of a bummer cause in the end your combat routine will allways be the same no matter what you face. And dont say that "a charger is allways charging" cause its totally diferent when you get to kill stuff.

Like one of the guys said before try leaving your optimizer comfort zone and play a fun or themed build that would be useless in a diferent game.

You can try a knight, lock down opponents, get some AOO with tactical expert (if i got the feat right) so you give AR bonus to your allies against the oponents you hit with your AOO. AOO + bonus to rolls + flanking + shield other. Then you can grab allied defense and give one of your allies +5 AC from your combat expertice, get agile shield fighter and when you use your AOO you ignore that -5 to AR.

I find this game you are playing more like an oportunity to play what you never could in your regular optimizer role playing group. Try all those archetipes that you find so fun and themed but never before wanted to play cause you needed to be as good as the druid/wizard/cleric

And either the knight, the bard, or even a mash up of both can work here and will show the new guys a diferent way to play the game.

[Agincourt]

It should be pointed out that Dragonfire Inpiration comes from Dragon Magic , which is not on the list of approved books. You'll need specific approval for that if you go the bard route.

[Grayson01]

Have you considered going outside of your comfort zone. Play a themed character without the optimal choices? How about an Aasimar Favored Soul? Straight Half Elf fighter with just power attack, leave the Shock Trooper, Leap Attack etc at home.

Pick fitting or fun feat, not the best choices scavenged from all the matierial. Pick themed spells and not the optimal choice. Leave sleep and color spray at home and choose magic missile etc.

Try going outside of your comfort zone and experience the game in a new way, you may enjoy it. Anyone optimized far outside of those around them puts a strain on a game, even an optimized buffer.

Lots of people have already second/3rded/4thed this but I am going to put mine out there as well.

Make something you would never have made before, some the crazy like a Scout/Dragon Shaman or a Swashbuckler or a Elf Ranger with a war hound ACF or a Duskblade/Aracne Archer or Tifling Warlock something that no Optimizer would ever play. Limit yourself to two classes 2 bases or 1 Base 1 PrC. See if you can have fun with out the Mechincal Optimization.