Shadowporting Velociraptor-esque build

[PraxisVetli]

Alrighty, so here's the deal. For once, I really don't care about Optimization, I just want to have fun (that being said, Optimized and efficient are different). Thought I'd get that out of the way first.
Now. I'm joining a new party, which currently consists of:
Human Warmage, going into Rainbow Servant, using a lot of evocation
Human Wizard, don't know too many details, except Abj specialized
Cleric going into Warweaver (buffs and healbot)

I'm thinking about doing a stealth build, and I've always wanted to play a Poison Dusk (MM III, pg 96). I want to do a lot of Pouncing and Multiattacking. I know it's not ideal, but sounds cool. But I'm really not sure how to go about that. I'm currently waiting to see if my DM will allow me to qualify for Fangshield Ranger, so I can grab Multiattack. Multiclass Penalties are in place, but so is LA buyoff, ftr.
Ability Scores have yet to be rolled, DM prefer's them to be rolled in his presence.
Current build idea so far is going to require:
2 Barbarian (Rage, might as well grab pounce) (I actually only need 1, but I'm trying to dodge the multiclass penalties)
2 Ranger (Track and Multiattack from Fangshield)
3 Rogue (2d6 Sneak Attack)
4 Teflammar (Shadow Pounce) I know Crinti is easier to enter, but my DM is the kind who will want me to use it on a mount. Which, fair enough, that's totally what they're getting at anyway.
8 Black Blood Cultist (Savage Grapple, and Rend at 6th)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Track, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Craven is preferred, but not required.
And I will be grabbing the Shadow Walker template around level 6-7.
This is all well and good, and fits in 20 levels, but it's not going to be fluid getting there.
I'll post a build idea later, I just gotta get ready for work right now. If anyone knows a way to flatten this out, or condense it a bit, that would be supreme!
I had this vision of a Shadowporting Velociraptor type. But there's a few things I don't know how to do:

Cling to something while attacking. Like Velociraptors do.
Attack more than once with each Natural Weapon because, as Ur-Priest so eloquently put it, "Attacking more than once with each natural weapon requires the Rapidstrike line, which is sort of a colossal cluster****."



I know my concept is kind of vague, but I just don't know how to do what I want. Any and all help/advice is appreciated!



Anyone else ever note that the Adaptation for Unarmed Swordsage says nothing about giving Improved Unarmed Strike??

[PraxisVetli]

Shameless Selfbump.

Also.
Would Black Blood Cultist do what I need?

[PraxisVetli]

Please?
I need a way to cling

[Aegis013]

I had a hard time getting past "Multiclass penalties are in place". That sounds horrible. I really feel for you.

If you want to cling and emulate a shadowpouncing dino, how about Feral template? It's improved grab is only mediocre due to the enemy needing to be smaller than you, but with say... permanent Enlarge Person or if you can get it, permanent Giant Size as cast by a Wu-Jen/Spellguard of Silverymoon, you could reliably attempt to grapple onto/rend a lot of your foes.

Plus, you can buy off the 1 LA.

Ask your DM though, I have seen people use the interpretation that you only gain the special attacks from Feral based on "monster" racial hit dice only due to one of the lines in the special attacks section.

It also appears you don't qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. Not surprising considering it's a very difficult PrC to qualify for, or your build layout is missing "Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt" feat at level 6 to allow you to meet the Spellcasting prerequisite. You also don't meet the Sneak Attack requirement because you don't have sufficient Initiator level to gain Assassin's Stance when you're getting it. IL rounds down, so you'd have an IL of 4.5 (effectively 4) when you'd need a 5. If you delay your second level of Swordsage for one level, you can get it.

As for upping the damage, look into getting yourself a necklace of natural weapons from Savage Species. Enchant it with whatever seems like it'll be helpful. Vicious is really strong for adding damage, though it'll hurt you too.

If you're going to use any Sneak Attack at all, you can use the Craven feat to substantially increase your damage against foes which you can deal precision damage.

Other than that the best way to improve your concept is going to be to figure out how to get more teleportation effects into your routine attack. If you can use flaws, taking one for Hidden Talent: Dimension Hop would be an excellent idea.

Ask your DM if the gloves of Shadow Hand will let you pick up a maneuver even if you don't meet the necessary IL (I've seen both interpretations) and get yourself Shadow Stride for a move action teleport.

That way, you can use Shadow Jaunt from SS maneuvers, Shadow Stride from the item, and Dimension Hop to teleport three times in a round. You'll only get a couple of shots on the swift action teleport, so a manifester weapon for some extra PP would be a decent idea.

Hope it helps.

[Urpriest]

Crinti Shadow Marauder is a little easier to qualify for than Teflammar Shadowlord, and also grants shadow pounce.

For "clinging", Black Blood Cultist is ideal but in a build as busy as this would be hard to fit in. All you really need is Improved Grab, and maybe some rake attacks. The first is easier to get than the second, a level of Scaled Horror or Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian would give it to you. The advantage to rake attacks is that you can make them while in a grapple, since otherwise you wouldn't be able to take advantage of your multiple natural attacks. The only other way to get access to that sort of benefit is, again, Black Blood Cultist.

Of course, that's if "cling on" means grappling to you. I can't think of another logical way to do it...but grappling with natural attacks without Black Blood Cultist is generally not a great option.

As someone with a bunch of natural attacks, you generally want to layer on the bonus damage. Str is of course good, as is Knowledge Devotion if you can swing it. Necklace of Natural Attacks gets expensive if you're going for quantity over quality, if you get up above three attacks (just adding in Improved Unarmed Strike or a Monk's Belt will give you a fourth) then an Amulet of Mighty Fists will be more cost-effective, if unable to give you weapon special abilities. ToB stances help, you've already picked up one (though it won't help in a grapple). A few Totemist Soulmelds also help, and if you're very accurate or have room for Shock Trooper or a way to get touch attacks consider Power Attack.

Attacking more than once with each natural weapon requires the Rapidstrike line, which is sort of a colossal cluster****, but you can look into it if that's what you want. You're probably better off getting more attacks and focusing on unarmed strike though.

[PraxisVetli]

I had a hard time getting past "Multiclass penalties are in place". That sounds horrible. I really feel for you.

If you want to cling and emulate a shadowpouncing dino, how about Feral template? It's improved grab is only mediocre due to the enemy needing to be smaller than you, but with say... permanent Enlarge Person or if you can get it, permanent Giant Size as cast by a Wu-Jen/Spellguard of Silverymoon, you could reliably attempt to grapple onto/rend a lot of your foes.

Plus, you can buy off the 1 LA.

Ask your DM though, I have seen people use the interpretation that you only gain the special attacks from Feral based on "monster" racial hit dice only due to one of the lines in the special attacks section.

It also appears you don't qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. Not surprising considering it's a very difficult PrC to qualify for, or your build layout is missing "Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt" feat at level 6 to allow you to meet the Spellcasting prerequisite. You also don't meet the Sneak Attack requirement because you don't have sufficient Initiator level to gain Assassin's Stance when you're getting it. IL rounds down, so you'd have an IL of 4.5 (effectively 4) when you'd need a 5. If you delay your second level of Swordsage for one level, you can get it.

As for upping the damage, look into getting yourself a necklace of natural weapons from Savage Species. Enchant it with whatever seems like it'll be helpful. Vicious is really strong for adding damage, though it'll hurt you too.

If you're going to use any Sneak Attack at all, you can use the Craven feat to substantially increase your damage against foes which you can deal precision damage.

Other than that the best way to improve your concept is going to be to figure out how to get more teleportation effects into your routine attack. If you can use flaws, taking one for Hidden Talent: Dimension Hop would be an excellent idea.

Ask your DM if the gloves of Shadow Hand will let you pick up a maneuver even if you don't meet the necessary IL (I've seen both interpretations) and get yourself Shadow Stride for a move action teleport.

That way, you can use Shadow Jaunt from SS maneuvers, Shadow Stride from the item, and Dimension Hop to teleport three times in a round. You'll only get a couple of shots on the swift action teleport, so a manifester weapon for some extra PP would be a decent idea.

Hope it helps.
feral is definately Racial HD, so that's out. Also, I want to stay Small.
I'll try to fix my qualifications, my bad! Craven and NoNW seem like good plans, had totally forgotten about them, thanks!

Crinti Shadow Marauder is a little easier to qualify for than Teflammar Shadowlord, and also grants shadow pounce.

For "clinging", Black Blood Cultist is ideal but in a build as busy as this would be hard to fit in. All you really need is Improved Grab, and maybe some rake attacks. The first is easier to get than the second, a level of Scaled Horror or Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian would give it to you. The advantage to rake attacks is that you can make them while in a grapple, since otherwise you wouldn't be able to take advantage of your multiple natural attacks. The only other way to get access to that sort of benefit is, again, Black Blood Cultist.

Of course, that's if "cling on" means grappling to you. I can't think of another logical way to do it...but grappling with natural attacks without Black Blood Cultist is generally not a great option.

As someone with a bunch of natural attacks, you generally want to layer on the bonus damage. Str is of course good, as is Knowledge Devotion if you can swing it. Necklace of Natural Attacks gets expensive if you're going for quantity over quality, if you get up above three attacks (just adding in Improved Unarmed Strike or a Monk's Belt will give you a fourth) then an Amulet of Mighty Fists will be more cost-effective, if unable to give you weapon special abilities. ToB stances help, you've already picked up one (though it won't help in a grapple). A few Totemist Soulmelds also help, and if you're very accurate or have room for Shock Trooper or a way to get touch attacks consider Power Attack.

Attacking more than once with each natural weapon requires the Rapidstrike line, which is sort of a colossal cluster****, but you can look into it if that's what you want. You're probably better off getting more attacks and focusing on unarmed strike though.

I'm sure I can smuggle in Black Blood if I need too, but I'd have to redo my Build. Which is fine.
I'm sure I could get my DM to let 'clinging' to work as Grappling, but doesn't that mean that as a Small character, I'll fail all of the Grapple checks, making me unable to Cling?

Attacking more than once with each natural weapon requires the Rapidstrike line, which is sort of a colossal cluster****
YES. YES IT IS. I've been trying to find a way, it just doesn't look like its happening.




I updated the OP

[PraxisVetli]

Is there a way to condense the Barbarian, Ranger, and Rogue levels? It really seems like there should be a feat to stack them. Is there an ACF chain that'll do it?

[Aegis013]

Is there something else you want to get into the build before Telflammar Shadowlord?

[PraxisVetli]

Is there something else you want to get into the build before Telflammar Shadowlord?

I'm not sure. I think I want BBC at least around the same time, maybe not necessarily before.
I think I'm just trying to condense it. I just didn't want the whole "shadowport velociraptor" thing to not come online till lvl ~13, you know?

[Aegis013]

There's nothing that quite meets your needs. You can drop two levels of Rogue for one level of Spellthief and have your 2d6 Sneak Attack and free up a level.

You still need a way to cast Dimension Door to qualify for the spellcasting prerequisite of TFSL though. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt feat (Magic of Incarnum) is still the easiest method.

I recommend adding two levels of Fighter and dropping a level of Barbarian to free up some feats.
You don't actually have enough to grab everything without taking a flaw for finding another way to meet one of the prerequisites or you'll have to delay entry into TFSL

So you'd have;
1 Whirlpounce 'Barian
2 Fangshield Ranger
2 Fighter
1 Rogue
1 Spellthief
2 BBC
4 TFLS
+7 BBC
Feats:
1. Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Track
3. Dodge, FSR. Multiattack
4. Mobility
5. Spring-Attack
6. Blind-Fight
9. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt
12. Craven
15. ???

[PraxisVetli]

There's nothing that quite meets your needs. You can drop two levels of Rogue for one level of Spellthief and have your 2d6 Sneak Attack and free up a level.

You still need a way to cast Dimension Door to qualify for the spellcasting prerequisite of TFSL though. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt feat (Magic of Incarnum) is still the easiest method.

I recommend adding two levels of Fighter and dropping a level of Barbarian to free up some feats.
You don't actually have enough to grab everything without taking a flaw for finding another way to meet one of the prerequisites or you'll have to delay entry into TFSL

So you'd have;
1 Whirlpounce 'Barian
2 Fangshield Ranger
2 Fighter
1 Rogue
1 Spellthief
2 BBC
4 TFLS
+7 BBC
Feats:
1. Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Track
3. Dodge, FSR. Multiattack
4. Mobility
5. Spring-Attack
6. Blind-Fight
9. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt
12. Craven
15. ???

i don't need Shape Soulmeld, I'm picking up Shadow-Walker around 7 or so.
My biggest problem is I don't know how to make those grapples checks.

[Aegis013]

Fair enough. There was no mention that I had noticed in the thread, but since LA buy-off is being allowed, it's not an unreasonable way to go long term.

I'd still go with the feat, personally. -2 Con and Light Blindness are undesirable.

[PraxisVetli]

Fair enough. There was no mention that I had noticed in the thread, but since LA buy-off is being allowed, it's not an unreasonable way to go long term.

I'd still go with the feat, personally. -2 Con and Light Blindness are undesirable.

I suppose. I don't need track, it comes from Ranger, so I can take it earlier.
Wait.
Why is there a feat at 2?

[Aegis013]

I suppose. I don't need track, it comes from Ranger, so I can take it earlier.
Wait.
Why is there a feat at 2?

Gaining it from Ranger at 2.

[PraxisVetli]

oh, duh. My bad.

I suppose. And I'll be able to pounce the whole time, so that'll be good.
There's just no way to keep swordsage, is there?

[Aegis013]

Drop a level of fighter for a level of unarmed Swordsage. It doesn't explicitly give improved unarmed strike, the same way Monk doesn't.

You'll want to take the USS level at level 5 (IL 3 for 2nd lvl maneuvers).

[PraxisVetli]

Drop a level of fighter for a level of unarmed Swordsage. It doesn't explicitly give improved unarmed strike, the same way Monk doesn't.

You'll want to take the USS level at level 5 (IL 3 for 2nd lvl maneuvers).

right on. I think I'll grab Clinging Shadow Strike, Wolf Fang Strike, and Claw at the Moon.

[PraxisVetli]

HOW AM I GOING TO MAKE THOSE GRAPPLE CHECKS??
I get -4 for just for being small, is there anyway I can make this work? I can't believe there isn't a way for a small creature to latch onto a colossal dragon and rake away.

[Urpriest]

HOW AM I GOING TO MAKE THOSE GRAPPLE CHECKS??
I get -4 for just for being small, is there anyway I can make this work? I can't believe there isn't a way for a small creature to latch onto a colossal dragon and rake away.

I just had an idea.

Grappling just isn't going to work, as a small character you're at way too much of a disadvantage.

Instead, what you want is a way for a smaller creature to climb on top of a larger one, and I have just the ticket:

Complete Warrior, page 111: Giantbane tactical feat, Climb Aboard maneuver. Takes some ranks in Tumble, you'll want Climb as well for this, though. Lets you climb on top of a foe, giving them penalties to attack you. They can only get rid of you if they make a grapple check opposed by your Climb, and Climb is not hard to boost. Usable only on creatures two sizes or more larger, so Large in your case, but Reduce Person lets you do it to Medium creatures as well.

Consider other tricks from this build (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1059231) if you want to further capitalize on your small stature.

[PraxisVetli]

I just had an idea.

Grappling just isn't going to work, as a small character you're at way too much of a disadvantage.

Instead, what you want is a way for a smaller creature to climb on top of a larger one, and I have just the ticket:

Complete Warrior, page 111: Giantbane tactical feat, Climb Aboard maneuver. Takes some ranks in Tumble, you'll want Climb as well for this, though. Lets you climb on top of a foe, giving them penalties to attack you. They can only get rid of you if they make a grapple check opposed by your Climb, and Climb is not hard to boost. Usable only on creatures two sizes or more larger, so Large in your case, but Reduce Person lets you do it to Medium creatures as well.

Consider other tricks from this build (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1059231) if you want to further capitalize on your small stature.

YES.
absolutely becoming my lvl 6 feat. absolutely. Thank you, that was the one gaping hole in my character concept. NOW I AM COMPLETE!!!!!
this is most excellent, especially with the skill tricks I intend to take.
You and Aegis have made me very happy, and I thank you!