I need help putting together a big list

[No brains]

So I got the idea to try to compile all the best undead minions a necromancer could raise and control in 3.5. What I want to do is go from A-Z in each monster resource and see how creatures work with undead templates on them. Has this been done before? How can I go about this? Can anyone give me any tips for making big handbook-like lists?

What are accessible templates for necromancers to apply to creatures? I know Skeleton and Zombie are the simple stand-bys, but I've also heard spellstitched works with just about everything. There's also Bone-Creature for intelligent skeletons and a zombie-counterpart. What other templates work and how should I limit myself in applying them to creatures? Should I include or exclude Dragon Magizine and Pathfinder?

Give me any thoughts that you can, even if that thought is that this isn't even a worthy project to attempt. Thanks all.

[Snowbluff]

I can't say it has.

The best way would be to go book by book and just making a note. :smalltongue:

[No brains]

I can't say it has.

The best way would be to go book by book and just making a note. :smalltongue:

Encouraging me to go through with hard work? Can't you just tell me my hopes are pointless?:smalltongue:

In seriousness, thanks for the support.:smallsmile:

[Aegis013]

You could always try checking all of the necromancy class handbooks for recommended minions. I think SchneekyTheLost's Dread Necro guide has some? It at the very least mentions minions like the Slaymate.

[AlanBruce]

Savage Species has a the wraith and umbral template, that turns certain type of creatures into wraiths and shadows. Umbral was redone in Libris Mortis as well.

Draconomicon has the Dracolich and Zombie dragon...maybe a ghost dragon as well. The regular versions are found in the MM.

Then there's the Deathknight, various zombie and skeleton subtypes, spectres, allips, the slaymate, Ulgurstasta (FF, although the illustration does not make it look like an undead at all, just a big bloated vermin). In fact, there are a lot of very good undead creatures in that book.

Bone Drinkers from MM3 and the Vasuthant, Deathshrieker (I think that's the name), Grimweird (advaces by class, make really good villains), salt mummy.

I personally look at all different undead as templates of some sort, since most were alive at sokme point and something happened to turn them into their current state, so you can, with some homebrewing, create a salt mummy template (not the sandstorm, but the MM3 version) and use the ability score modifiers and special attacks and qualities and add them to a humanoid creature (usually the default salt mummy in this case.)

[Know(Nothing)]

This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=181) will get you some distance.

[Snowbluff]

Encouraging me to go through with hard work? Can't you just tell me my hopes are pointless?:smalltongue:

In seriousness, thanks for the support.:smallsmile:

I'll be happy to scour a sourcebook to help out. :smallsmile:

There's also the unholy shroud, which let's you make undead. Poor wording let's it make anything. :smalltongue:

[No brains]

I'll be happy to scour a sourcebook to help out. :smallsmile:

There's also the unholy shroud, which let's you make undead. Poor wording let's it make anything. :smalltongue:

I've given it some thought over time and I was thinking of structuring my list like this:

First few posts would be intro info. Included would be spells, items, rituals, and locations that let one create undead. It would list what undead can be created and what level one can assume to get these benefits. Possibly go into some basics about what templates would be good for what purposes, including turning oneself into an undead.

One good point I want to get into is the limitation on what one can order undead to do. There are probably solid RAW restrictions, but there are some things that could be DM approved to either limit or expand what a controller could do. One nifty example I thought of would be bypassing the word limit on orders by having the caster use multiple languages when they speak. German monsternouns would probably count as multiple words, but if a language has a word that encompasses many ideas, a clever caster could use it to cheat what the undead 'understand'.

After that, I'll go through books to get monster ideas. I'll probably go A to Z in Monster Manual first (still keeping animals and vermin in their appendices) and test what templates would work with such creatures, even if those templates are in later books. Of course this would mean finding out what all the templates a caster could put on something could be, but maybe I could take some reasonable shortcuts based on the usefulness of applying a template (skeleton octopus is impossible/ zombie illithid misses the point entirely).

Does this sound like a reasonable format? Any suggestions?

P.S. Where can I find this unholy shroud?

[sideswipe]

i would suggest you stick to first party books, otherwise your list will never end.

[No brains]

i would suggest you stick to first party books, otherwise your list will never end.

But of course! WotC books and the online snippets would be enough as it is. It doesn't help that I heard that 3rd party is usually just the broken homebrew of some guy with the cash to print it.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I would also make sure that you get the heavy hitters done first. That way if you need to take a break, at least you still have a functional resource.

[No brains]

I would also make sure that you get the heavy hitters done first. That way if you need to take a break, at least you still have a functional resource.

How would you define "heavy hitters?" Creatures that litterally hit very hard, like T rex and bulette, or more generally challenging creatures ?

[ArcanistSupreme]

How would you define "heavy hitters?" Creatures that litterally hit very hard, like T rex and bulette, or more generally challenging creatures ?

I was thinking more along the lines of highly recommended minions, like the aforementioned slaymate. Or pointing out minions that are a waste of black onyx.

[No brains]

I was thinking more along the lines of highly recommended minions, like the aforementioned slaymate. Or pointing out minions that are a waste of black onyx.

Okay, gotcha. It would probably be good to include slaymate, stitched-flesh familiar, and any one controlled creature that can make spawn at the top to address making a big/effective force. I did hear that using animate dead to make many weak skeletons is not as good as making one big one, and that it's actually possible to cheat and control more than one is supposed to though some trick of the spell's wording. Thanks for the input.

[tyriuth]

Index of undead monsters (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablefilter=undead)

[No brains]

Index of undead monsters (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablefilter=undead)

Thank you. This is a good place to start, but you will notice that there isn't a lot of info on the critters besides types and CR. I want to take all of them (or however many matter) and describe what a necromancer has to do to get one and why they would want one.

Furthermore, these are only basic undead given by WotC, and I have the goal of finding out what creatures can be useful when turned undead by the application of a template. Zombie T. rex and zombie hydra aren't on there, but they work great as zombies because the template's limitations don't really matter to those creatures. A T. rex might be a bit bulky on HD, but in theory it just moves in quick and makes one big attack, a hydra has useful HD, but I have heard the rules on its many-headed attacking supercede the limitation of one standard or move action on a zombie.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Don't forget the Ephemeral Swarm from the MM3; it can be pretty nasty.

[Fyermind]

There are general rules somewhere (Like Hydras make good zombies) and anything with lots of attacks for it's HD makes a good skeleton. Legion devils are awesome if you can get them as a form of undead that keep their special qualities.

[tyriuth]

Thank you. This is a good place to start, but you will notice that there isn't a lot of info on the critters besides types and CR. I want to take all (or however many matter) and describe what a necromancer has to do to get one and why they would want one.

It was only ever meant as a starting point, it lets you see where all the undead are, what sorts of templates are available so that you don't have to go through all the books finding them.

[No brains]

Don't forget the Ephemeral Swarm from the MM3; it can be pretty nasty.

I'll be sure to make a note of it, thanks. :smallsmile:


There are general rules somewhere (Like Hydras make good zombies) and anything with lots of attacks for it's HD makes a good skeleton. Legion devils are awesome if you can get them as a form of undead that keep their special qualities.

The general rules are what creature abilities are and are not taken away by the template. The way a hydra stays nice after becoming a skeleton or zombie is that its best powers aren't special attacks or special qualities. What are legion devils, and where are they listed?


It was only ever meant as a starting point, it lets you see where all the undead are, what sorts of templates are available so that you don't have to go through all the books finding them.

Alright, I see. I got the wrong impression from seeing the link there alone. Thank you again.

[hymer]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156274-3-5-Undead-List) on this forum is another pre-existing list, seemingly trying to attain the same sort of thing you are. Well, maybe not, I didn't read through the thread.

[No brains]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156274-3-5-Undead-List) on this forum is another pre-existing list, seemingly trying to attain the same sort of thing you are. Well, maybe not, I didn't read through the thread.

It's close, but it's unfinished and isn't as comprehensive as I wanted to be. It's still a great resource. Thanks!

[No brains]

I'm going to test the way I want my layout to look by limiting myself to Core (thus mostly just the Monster Manual) for right now. First I'm going to make a list of undead templates. In MM we have Ghost, Lich, Skeleton, Vampire, and Zombie.

As far as core is concerned, there is no way to actually make ghosts. Even if one is rebuked, it can't make spawn. Whatever the DM gives a player in the way of ghosts is all they are going to get.

A lich can only be made when an 11th level caster willingly makes its phylactery. Anybody who sees their own name appear in Legend Lore probably won't sign up to become your lackey, so it is unlikely one could create their own lich buddy. Furthermore it can be risky becoming a lich oneself, as it carries a +4 level adjustment. Carefully consider which is more valuable: item-dependent death immunity, or four levels of spell progression? Without LA buyoff or epic levels, this could mean no access to 9th level spells. Although a bard cohort could create a perfect storm for creating a controllable lich.

Skeletons are damn easy to make. With some black onyx (tips on acquisition later) and a 3rd level spell, almost any creature can be raised as an ally. --I'm leaving this unfinished until I've put in more effort finding out exactly what makes a good skeleton. In fact, I need to do some studying into what makes the most useful of other template undead too.--

Custom vampires can be acquired, but doing so is tricky. If one is rebuked, any humanoid or monstrous humanoid of 5 HD or more that gets drained to 0 Con by its blood drain attack rises with the vampire template under its (and thus its commanding necromancer's) control. This requires some setup to do right and also begins a dangerous game. Creatures caught in the "Vampire Pyramid Scheme" are not directly under a necromancer's control, and as they are evil creatures, attempts may be made to intentionally subvert orders when the opportunity arises. Be prepared to enter a Machiavellian mindset if you want to be the don of a vampire mafia. With the power afforded by the control of several characters by one player, it should be assumed that a DM will try play this way.

Zombies are another undead that is super easy to control. Zombies are also incredibly tough, doubling in HD from their base creature. This power comes at the price of zombies always acting like they are under a slow spell, but clever creature choice can mitigate or even eliminate this drawback. Creatures that have just one strong natural attack, like a wolf, rhinoceros, or similar creatures make good zombies because their tactics were restricted around one attack per turn already.

That's about all I can think of for now. I would welcome any feedback anyone wants to give. Maybe I over-thought the "VPS" above? I think I know the most about what creatures make the most useful zombies. It might be good to begin the list with only little summaries of what the templates can do and filling in more details when I work my way down the alphabet to the template itself.

Coming soon, I'm visiting letter A to see what an aboleth looks like when reanimated.

[Vedhin]

A bit late, but this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8963) might be what you're looking for.

[No brains]

A bit late, but this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8963) might be what you're looking for.

I've seen the oddity list before, one link a person gave linked again to it. What I want to do that's different from the oddity list is do more in depth with all the options a necromancer has in creating undead. For example (sorry to keep going to this, it's what I know) certain creatures make better zombies due to certain natural abilities they possess that aren't removed when they gain the template. A hydra's multi-headed attack supersedes slow, and its heads even grow back. A thoqqua or an ankheg can charge without needing to move 10 feet. Maybe there are other niche template creature combos that are yet undiscovered. Maybe yrthaks make a good something or other. There are also other issues I want to discuss, like limitations and freedoms possessed by undead one controls. What counts as a 'skeleton'? These are things I hope to explore in my list.

Although, thanks again for bringing me a good resource.:smallsmile:

[No brains]

Here's a test of what I want each entry in my list to look like. It's rough and ugly, especially since I limited myself to Core. I did have a lot of fun both griping about how the monster sucked and found it interesting when it worked well in its niche, so I'm hoping I can get into full swing.

Sample Article 1: Aboleth.

As far as possible targets go, Aboleths are a very poor choice. First, eligibility for any template is questionable. The aberration type keeps it from becoming a lich or vampire. Next, it may not even be eligible for becoming a skeleton or zombie because its 'primitive fish' theme might mean it lacks a skeleton. Even if it could be a skeleton, it would lose all of its natural attacks, a severe damper. Although there is nothing stopping an aboleth from becoming a ghost, there is no way force an aboleth to become one.

As a Ghost: (Should I even bother listing a creature as a ghost? The lack of any means to create one leaves all ghost availability up to the DM. If there is a way to create a ghost outside of core, this could be helpful)

If an aboleth becomes a ghost, it's a game changer for the creature. With its original contact based attacks and qualities lost and with its poor natural dexterity to attempt touch attacks, a ghost aboleth leaves the idea of a face-to-face fight behind in favor of behind the scenes (or even within the scenes) controller. Its original at will psionics work great to even better conceal the nature of the creature running the show. If such a creature could be found and controlled, it would add a great wealth of spells to the necromancer controlling it. The at-will ability to change the appearance of nearly everything around the caster is a huge boon against everything without true seeing.

Lich: Ineligible

Skeleton: Huge problems even if an aboleth has a skeleton. (I broke away from Core and looked to see if it had bones in Lords of Madness; it does) It loses all of its tentacle attacks leaving it with only a huge unarmed strike (+12 1d6+8) that provokes AoO. The skeleton keeps its Mucus Cloud ability (somehow), but the usefulness of the ability is questionable. The only creatures that risk inhaling the slime are those that breathe water, which usually already don't breathe air. I suppose it could hurt amphibious creatures or those using water breathing. The aboleth keeps its full swim speed, so at least it can be fast and useless.

Vampire: Ineligible

Zombie: About as useless as the skeleton above. Doubling HD and the strength bonus do nothing to make a single 1d6 attack useful. It keeps the mucus cloud, but doesn't have the speed to even attempt to get creatures into it. Anything with half a brain can just hang back and shoot it with spells or crossbows and then even just get out of the water.

In core at least, raising an aboleth is a stupid idea. I guess if someone is afraid of some kind of amphibious attack, it could guard a flooded corridor, but there are likely better creatures for doing that. Its huge size and weight makes transporting the creature from the wild to wherever you want it is a pain, and skeleton aboleths actually lose the body parts that give them their land speed. It is so legendarily crappy that any good use of one would be a heroic tale better told by the clever person who lived it.

If you have anything at all to say about this, bad or good. I welcome it.