Without using a DW kobold or LA2, whats the highest I can get any one ability score?

[RPGaddict28]

DW means Dragonwrought. LA2 or higher. 3.5 and Pathfinder material allowed, no third party, Drag Mag is ok. It doesn't matter what score it is, I just needs to be the highest I can get it. I'm thinking it'll be strength and probably in the 40's, but I'm not sure.

[Juntao112]

Cancer Mage. Arbitrarily high Str.

[RPGaddict28]

Cancer Mage. Arbitrarily high Str.

Got a hard no from the DM on that one.

[Taveena]

Off the top of my head, I know a Magic Blooded Unseelie Fae Lesser Aasimar has +6 Charisma for +0 LA.

Looking it up, though, an Arctic Dragonborn Proto-Creature Mongrelfolk has +10 constitution, which is a little better. You can get +8 strength at LA +0 with Proto-Creature orcs... but that's pretty much the limit of +0 template stacking.

[RPGaddict28]

Ok, thats kinda low, if I added LA1 to the mix, what can I get?

[WhamBamSam]

Naenhoon Illumian Chicken Infested Commoner 1/Cleric 7 with Black Lore of Moil and DMM Persist and Fell Animate (which you apply through Naenhoon Illumian). Pull chickens out of your spell component pouch and drop them into a Persisted Moilan Fell Animate Consumptive Field. Each time you do so, you will gain +2 Str and an Undead chicken (up to 14 HD worth).

Note: Your DM will reject this. Here are some comparatively tame things that are at least closer to PO range.

Dragonborn Mongrelfolk is +6 Con at LA+0. I think there's another LA+0 template or two in some Dragon Magazine that adds Con.

The Anthropomorphic Bat is +6 Wis at LA+0.

The Anthopomorphic Baleen Whale has high physical stats. It has 3 RHD, but no LA.

[Gemini476]

You know that Dragonwrought Kobolds don't get higher ability bonuses than anyone else, right? The +3 to all mental stats is just them being Venerable (or Great Wyrms in this case).

So remember to add +3 whenever someone boosts a mental stat with templates. Oh yeah, and spells. What's that crazy Druid spell that gives +1 Wisdom per 2 CL or something? I know I remember something along those lines.

The highest stat will probably be Strength, though. +20 from 10 levels of War Hulk is pretty hard to beat.

[Taveena]

Lolth-Touched adds +6 strength and +6 con, and as an Acquired template can be stacked on top of the ones already mentioned (though can't really be used with Dragonborn, seein' as one is Good and the other's Evil)

HALF MINOTAUR. God, this was a badly designed template, but it provides an increase to Large size and gets the stat bonuses as though it had advanced that way. In other words, in addition to the written +4 strength, +2 con, and -2 int, it also gets another +8 strength, -2 dex, +4 con, and +4 AC. So for +1 LA a Half-Minotaur Proto-Creature Dragonborn Arctic Water Orc is going to get +20 strength, -4 dex, +14 con, -6 int, -2 wis, -8 cha.

+5 inherent bonus (from Tomes or Wishes). You can get a +32 Size bonus to strength from the Wu Jen spell Giant Size. Hard to find a CL 20 scroll've it though. Barbarian can get up to another +8 str untyped from raging, and you can get +2 from certain drugs apparently (Alchemical bonus). So.

Bite of the Werebear gives a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +8 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +7 enhancement bonus to natural armor. SO.

[Techwarrior]

You want a Dustform Incarnate Construct Half Orc with Half Orc Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Ferocity Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10
Progressed as Cleric 1/Half Orc Paragon 2/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Barbarian 1/Half Orc Paragon +1/Frenzied Berserker 1/Half Orc Paragon +1/Mystic Theurge 10

Feats:
1: Versatile Spellcaster
3: Power Attack
H: Cleave
6: Intimidating Rage
9: Destructive Rage
12: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
15: Ability Enhancer
18: Reckless Rage

Base Strength 24 (18+6 racial)
+2 Half Orc Paragon
+2 Human Paragon
+4 Rage
+4 Ferocity
+6 Frenzy
+2 Reckless Rage (Feat)
+5 levels
+5 tome
+18 enhancement (Bite of the Werebear)
+6 size (Righteous Might)
+4 Sacred (Lesser Holy Transformation)
+2 Morale (Rage, not affected by Ability Enhancer)
+2 Untyped (Death Knell, not affected by Ability Enhancer)
=90 Strength

The Dustform Template is LA +2, and changes your type to Construct. After that, apply the Incarnate Construct Template, which is LA -2 and changes you back to Humanoid, and you net +4 Racial Strength, and a few other handy things.

Ability Enhancer adds +2 to the bonus granted by 'any Transmutation spell that enhances ability scores.' Stacking Transmutation spells that grant different types of Strength bonus capitalizes our use of this feat.

That's everything I can think of at this point. You might conceivably be able to Polymorph into a better starting strength than you (+2 from Ability Enhancer) and go from there, but all these round/level buffs are already contributing to your Anime Powerup SyndromeTM.

[TiaC]

Lolth-Touched adds +6 strength and +6 con, and as an Acquired template can be stacked on top of the ones already mentioned (though can't really be used with Dragonborn, seein' as one is Good and the other's Evil)

HALF MINOTAUR. God, this was a badly designed template, but it provides an increase to Large size and gets the stat bonuses as though it had advanced that way. In other words, in addition to the written +4 strength, +2 con, and -2 int, it also gets another +8 strength, -2 dex, +4 con, and +4 AC. So for +1 LA a Half-Minotaur Proto-Creature Dragonborn Arctic Water Orc is going to get +20 strength, -4 dex, +14 con, -6 int, -2 wis, -8 cha.

Add Wild for an extra +2 str, -2 int, -2 cha.
You could use a race with RHD to get higher, but I'm not sure if that's on the table.
This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=176.0) thread is relevant.

[Gildedragon]

Half ogre template can be stacked ontop of Half Minotaur at no LA (as the LA is of it produces a size increase only) add to that the Wild template for an extra 2 STR at 0 LA. Working of the "arctic proto half-mino water orc" we get: +wild+1/2 ogre... Dropping dragonborn cause the bonuses abilities are nice

+26 strength, -2 dex, +12 con, -10 int, -2 wis, -12 cha

We can ameliorate that with magic blooded (also la 0)

-4 wis, -10 cha

And then further with primordial giant

+22str, -2dex, +10con, -6int, -4wis, -6cha

Which produces a small loss in con and a small gain in str, but it really takes the edge of the mental penalties and gives this fella a ton of SLAs

Magic-blooded primordial proto half-ogre half-minotaur arctic wild water orc

As long as wild is the first added you're golden for keeping the subsequent SLAs

You might want to be good tho cause this guy ain't getting many skill points, so Nymph's Kiss might be damn handy

[RPGaddict28]

Half ogre template can be stacked ontop of Half Minotaur at no LA (as the LA is of it produces a size increase only) add to that the Wild template for an extra 2 STR at 0 LA. Working of the "arctic proto half-mino water orc" we get: +wild+1/2 ogre... Dropping dragonborn cause the bonuses abilities are nice

+26 strength, -2 dex, +12 con, -10 int, -2 wis, -12 cha

We can ameliorate that with magic blooded (also la 0)

-4 wis, -10 cha

And then further with primordial giant

+22str, -2dex, +10con, -6int, -4wis, -6cha

Which produces a small loss in con and a small gain in str, but it really takes the edge of the mental penalties and gives this fella a ton of SLAs

Magic-blooded primordial proto half-ogre half-minotaur arctic wild water orc

As long as wild is the first added you're golden for keeping the subsequent SLAs

You might want to be good tho cause this guy ain't getting many skill points, so Nymph's Kiss might be damn handy

Other than the stat bonuses, do you know what kinda things these templates give?

[Gildedragon]

Lets see:

A Protocreature Desert Primordial Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Magic-Blooded Arctic Wild Water-Orc has the following:

+22str, -2dex, +10con, -6int, -4wis, -6cha

Low-light Vision (twice as far)
Darkvision 60'
No light sensitivity
35' movement (land & swim)
+7 nat armor
Gore (1d8)
+4 to escape maze spells
Know North automatically
+1 to attack [fire] subtype creatures
Scent
Track feat

Skills:
+1 skillpoint per level
+1 kn skill as class skill
+2 search
+4 kn (arcana)*, spellcraft*, spot, listen
+8 survival
+8 swim**
-2 bluff, diplomacy, sense motive

Saves:
-2 vs against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the fire subtype or used by creatures of the fire subtype
+4 vs mind affecting and enchantment

SLAs:
1/day: Ray of Frost, Create Water, detect magic, magic aura***, read magic
at will: invisibility/invisibility purge/levitate****

Notes:
*can be used untrained
** can take 10, can move without needing to make checks, can always take 10 on swim, can run while swimming
*** twice, technically, once to create an aura of magic, another to make something read as nonmagical
**** Only one of these, picked at 1st level

By being dragonborn one loses pretty much all that stuff.
Including the lovely +1 skillpoint

[Vaz]

Neraph Wilder 8 with Metamorphic Transfer changes into a Visilight, and grapples/drains charisma and adds it to himself. As the standard human has 10-11 Charisma, using the most restrictive reading he gains 30-33 cha a day, of which 24 is lost over the course of the day, meaning a 6-9 net gain a day. It allows for arbitrarily high values (and there is honestly no rule stating you cannot drain into negative charisma AFAIAA) but can be limited by your DM interposing limitations on how often you can do so (a wilderness campaign where you're engaging charisma 4 animals makes it hard for you to gain massive charisma, and one with long periods of non interaction/incarceration etc can remove your massivehigh stacked charisma. )

[Ellowryn]

A LA +0 template that I never see mentioned is The Lost from Magic of Incarnum, gives +4 Str, +4 Con, -6 Int (min 1) and a couple of other nice abilities. And makes you evil, but that never really mattered.

[Gildedragon]

A LA +0 template that I never see mentioned is The Lost from Magic of Incarnum, gives +4 Str, +4 Con, -6 Int (min 1) and a couple of other nice abilities. And makes you evil, but that never really mattered.

The lost template is not LA +0 it is LA - which means it is no good for PCs

[Ellowryn]

The lost template is not LA +0 it is LA - which means it is no good for PCs

Out of curiosity, where is this ruling? I have never heard of this before.

Also somehow forgot one of my favorite LA +0 Templates, Half-Golem from MM2.

[Vaz]

In the Template section in the monster manual, iirc.

[Gildedragon]

Out of curiosity, where is this ruling? I have never heard of this before.

Also somehow forgot one of my favorite LA +0 Templates, Half-Golem from MM2.


MM:
Monsters that can be used as player characters have level adjustments


LA - is not an LA, it is the absence of LA


DMG:
If a creature in the Monster Manual doesn’t have a level adjustment (ie: LA -), this means we don’t recommend using it as either a player character or a cohort

Yeah you can use it. Same as you can play an unawakened wolf or a mindless skeleton, but that falls away from the standard rules.

[EldritchArisano]

LA+0
warforged incarnate-construct
lolth-touched
feral
dragonborn

str+10
dex-4
con+10
int-4
wis0
cha0

WITH FAST HEALING

(away from book, mental stats may be wrong.)

[Gildedragon]

LA+0
warforged incarnate-construct
lolth-touched
feral
dragonborn

str+10
dex-4
con+10
int-4
wis0
cha0

WITH FAST HEALING

(away from book, mental stats may be wrong.)

Feral can only be applied to a "humanoid or monstrous humanoid" Warforged ain't

[Ellowryn]

Incarnate construct specifically changes your type to humanoid. Although i dont know if you would lose your subtypes from this, anybody know?

And order of operation, which i believe is important, would mean that IC would have to be applied AFTER loth-touched and feral so you would lose the abilities from them.

[Gildedragon]

Lolth touched is acquired. So it can be got post incarnation
ditto for Dragonborn, though Dragonborn would have to come later otherwise it would be lost by becoming lolthtouched (there is no stipulation for losing lolth-touched by becoming good)
Though Dragonborn would remove a number of the LT template bonuses
Feral is inherited and thus must be applied before Incarnate Construct, and warforged do not qualify.
You do not lose subtypes.

[Ellowryn]

What i ment was, you can't apply the -2 LA from IC before gaining the +2 from the other 2 Templates. Well, you can but you wouldnt reduce their LA.

And becoming a humanoid (living construct) seems odd, but if thats how it goes who am i to complain?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can go Dustform into Incarnate Construct into Dustform into Incarnate Construct as often as you want, it's a net +0 LA each time, and you get +2 Str out of it each time you do it. So arbitrarily high strength at ECL 0.

[Gemini476]

While it is true that not having a mentioned LA makes a monster LA:-, the same cannot be said of templates: if something is not explicitly mentioned as changed in a template, it is the same as the base creature. Yes, this includes LA. Yes, this is most assuredly not RAI. Yes, it is horribly abusable, although less so than you might think. I personally like it since it makes the Hairy SpiderMoF actually playable, but yeah.


You can go Dustform into Incarnate Construct into Dustform into Incarnate Construct as often as you want, it's a net +0 LA each time, and you get +2 Str out of it each time you do it. So arbitrarily high strength at ECL 0.

Unless specified otherwise, you can only apply a template once to a creature. There are a few exceptions like Evolved Undead, but yeah.

[Coidzor]

3.5's Orc is +4 Str & the Wild Template from the article in Dragon 306 that gave us Arctic/Ice-Dweller & Magic-Blooded/Spark gives +2 Str, IIRC. So that's +6 Str with LA+0. Slap on either of the Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre templates and go to town?

[Mato]

Hmm, a couple helpers off the top of my head. Some of them are temporary.

Base
18 starting
05 leveling
05 inherent
01 faustian pact
---Items
02 untyped, horseshoes of flame
01 untyped, worm of minauros
02 alchemical, luhix
02 untyped, arm of nyr
04 circumstance, clockwork armor
04 untyped, clawed arm, aboleth tentacle, or grappling tentacle (only when used)
---Spells
08 untyped, greater visage of the deity's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
20 enhancement, bite of the werebear's +16 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
06 untyped, death kneel's +2 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
06 moral, valiant fury's +4 + ability enhancer's +2
32 size, giant's size
---Other
02 psionic meditation
=118 (+54) strength, excluding racial/template modifiers.
*Curse of the Brute can be used for more.

It's late, I don't have time for those one :p

Base
18 starting
05 leveling
05 inherent
01 faustian pact
---Items
02 untyped, horseshoes of flame
01 untyped, worm of minauros
02 alchemical, luhix
04 untyped, silthilar tendons
02 untyped, arm of nyr
04 circumstance, clockwork armor
---Spells
08 untyped, greater visage of the deity's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
14 enhancement, divine aglity's +10 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
08 sacred, inner beauty's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
06 moral, aura of vitality's +4 + ability enhancer's +2
08 size, minute form's +8
---Other
02 psionic meditation
=90 (+40) dexterity, excluding racial/template modifiers.
*Curse of the Brute can be used for more.
Base
18 starting
05 leveling
05 inherent
02 age
01 faustian pact
---Items
10 untyped, horseshoes of flame
01 untyped, worm of minauros
02 alchemical, luhix
---Spells
08 untyped, greater visage of the deity's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
12 enhancement, necromantic empowerment's +8 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
---Other
02 psionic meditation
=66 (+28) intelligence, excluding racial/template modifiers.

Base
18 starting
05 leveling
05 inherent
02 age
01 faustian pact
---Items
01 untyped, worm of minauros
02 alchemical, luhix
---Spells
08 untyped, greater visage of the deity's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
12 enhancement, necromantic empowerment's +8 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
14 insight, cl20* owl's insight's +10 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
---Other
02 psionic meditation
=70 (+30) wisdom, excluding racial/template modifiers.
*Higher caster level gives higher insight bonuses.
Base
18 starting
05 leveling
05 inherent
02 age
01 faustian pact
---Items
06 untyped, horseshoes of flame
01 untyped, worm of minauros
02 alchemical, luhix
---Spells
08 untyped, greater visage of the deity's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
12 enhancement, nixie's grace's +8 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
08 sacred, righteous aura's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2
08 profane, devil's ego's +4 + ability enhancer's +2 + fell energy's +2, type changes form undead to outsider.
06 moral, snowsong's +4 + ability enhancer's +2
---Other
04 charm domain
02 psionic meditation
=88 (+39) charisma, excluding racial/template modifiers.

[Gildedragon]

3.5's Orc is +4 Str & the Wild Template from the Dragon Magazine article that gave us Magic-Blooded/Spark gives +2 Str, IIRC. So that's +6 Str with LA+0. Slap on either of the Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre templates and go to town?

You can add both as they only give LA if they increase the base size, and they don't increase a large creature's size.
another medium -> large template would be good but haven't found any.
so far the most i've gotten is

+26str, -2dex, +12con, -10int, -4wis, -10cha


If one made this fella with Dustform+Incarnate:

+30str, -4dex, 4d6b3 con, 4d6b3 int, -4 wis, -10cha (min 3)
but... no abilities

[Coidzor]

You can add both as they only give LA if they increase the base size, and they don't increase a large creature's size.
another medium -> large template would be good but haven't found any.
so far the most i've gotten is

+26str, -2dex, +12con, -10int, -4wis, -10cha


If one made this fella with Dustform+Incarnate:

+30str, -4dex, 4d6b3 con, 4d6b3 int, -4 wis, -10cha (min 3)
but... no abilities

Add Arctic and/or Wild after Dustform+Incarnate?

[Gildedragon]

Add Arctic and/or Wild after Dustform+Incarnate?

Already added on. Check post 13 for the breakdown sans dustincanation (and Taveena's @ 8 for... well the build you suggested)

With incarnated dustiness... well the post you quoted had it


If one made this fella with Dustform+Incarnate:
+30str, -4dex, 4d6b3 con, 4d6b3 int, -4 wis, -10cha (min 3)
but... no abilities

for which one drops primordial giant, because you have to roll cha from the start.
Also with dustform, arctic becomes superfluous as it gets obviated

[Rubik]

Polymorph Any Object into a sarrukh for 30 Int. +3 for venerable. +5 for tome/Wishes. +5 for levels. +6 for headband. +3 for the crystal master. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d)

Alternatively, go ardent, with the Dominant Ideal and Substitute Powers ACFs mentioned here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). Add a spell-to-power erudite's Awaken spell to your Dominant Ideal mantle (such as Nature or Magic). Take the Metapower (Empower/Awaken) feat, from CPsi. Manifest Psionic Contingency (Awaken), with as many instances of Empower Power as you want. (Note that metapsionics have no limitations placed on how many times you can apply any given metapsionic feat, and the only hard limits are your manifester level [for max pp spent] and the number of foci you have [normally 1-2].) Then Metamorphosis yourself into a tree. Set your Contingency to fire off when you become a tree, and you suddenly have an Int score of 3d6 x 1.5 x as many arbitrary iterations of Empower as you care to add.

[Vaz]

Doesn't work, Rubik.


Couple things wrong with that. Firstly Empower Power creates an empowered power, and an empowered power does exactly one and a half times more damage. This is a state change similar to Rage. IE the Power is in an Empowered State (dealing exactly 1/2 more than normal). The text is not in anyway worded or suggestive of Empower adds a +50% bonus to Spell Damage. Secondly unless specifically noted otherwise Feats don't stack with them selves. Thirdly, we're not GitP so I'm going to need to see a rules quote proving that claim (and there is none, as the author already admits).

[Chronos]

Just to be clear, are we looking for maximum bonus just from race and templates, or from all sources combined? I'm inclined to think it's the former, since the OP seems to have some plan in mind from using it which will probably take up all of his levels, but some folks are interpreting it each way.

[Rubik]

Doesn't work, Rubik.It does work, actually. Didn't I mention that nothing in psionics says that you can't use a metapsionic feat more than once? Your argument holds no water.

After all, if you can Quicken an Empowered power, there's nothing stopping you from Empowering it twice. Because multiplying damage always multiplies the base damage and adds it onto the end. Otherwise, you couldn't crit on a lance charge, if we went by your interpretation.

[Gemini476]

It does work, actually. Didn't I mention that nothing in psionics says that you can't use a metapsionic feat more than once? Your argument holds no water.

After all, if you can Quicken an Empowered power, there's nothing stopping you from Empowering it twice. Because multiplying damage always multiplies the base damage and adds it onto the end. Otherwise, you couldn't crit on a lance charge, if we went by your interpretation.

The dude has a point with Empower seemingly being a state-change, you know.

To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus (see the Concentration skill description, page 37). You can empower a power. All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half. An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Augmented powers can also be empowered (multiply 1-1/2 times the damage total of the augmented power). Saving throws and opposed checks (such as the one you make when you manifest dispel psionics) are not affected, nor are powers without random variables. Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 2. The power's total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.
The feat says that it empowers a power, and then goes on to explain what exactly an empowered power does. There's nothing to suggest that empowering an empowered power does anything at all. It's like trying to maximize a maximized power - it's already maximized, so forcing the state change doesn't do anything except waste PP.

There's also a general rule about not getting bonuses from the same source more than once, but I don't know if that is relevant here. It might be.

3.5 is a permissive ruleset rather than a denial ruleset - you can only do something if they say that you can do it, rather than the opposite (you can do anything except what they specifically deny you).
Saying that the rules don't say that you can't do so is quite frankly not acceptable in a RAW discussion.

[Rubik]

The dude has a point with Empower seemingly being a state-change, you know.He really doesn't.


The feat says that it empowers a power, and then goes on to explain what exactly an empowered power does. There's nothing to suggest that empowering an empowered power does anything at all. It's like trying to maximize a maximized power - it's already maximized, so forcing the state change doesn't do anything except waste PP.Except Empowering an Empowered power "deals half as much again" as a normal Empowered power would. It's really not that hard.


There's also a general rule about not getting bonuses from the same source more than once, but I don't know if that is relevant here. It might be.Except it's not specified as a bonus.


3.5 is a permissive ruleset rather than a denial ruleset - you can only do something if they say that you can do it, rather than the opposite (you can do anything except what they specifically deny you).
Saying that the rules don't say that you can't do so is quite frankly not acceptable in a RAW discussion.Except the restrictions on metapsionic use are specific to the feats themselves -- for instance, does an Empowered power still have a variable, numeric component? If so, you can Empower it again, so long as you expend your focus and pay whatever pp it costs.

It's like with power stones, scrolls, psionic tattoos, potions, staffs, psicrowns, dorjes, and wands. Just because the specific item with a specific spell isn't explicitly listed doesn't mean you can't make one, because the rules for those items allows you to make ones that aren't listed.

[Rebel7284]

Well if dragonwraught is disallowed, most of the suggestions on this thread would be too...

The easiest stat I can optimize without cheese is Con.

Dragonborn Mongrelfolk get +6 racial bonus for 0 LA.

Any con boosting +1 template that can work for non-evil creatures can boost this of course. Feral and Mineral Warrior are both good.

[Mato]

The Feat says "An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal"
Half again as normal, not half again since last application.
Half again as normal, not empower adds +50%.
There is no mathematical equation, empower is a state change. People know this and thats why a few have stepped forward on you Rubik.

You should also always keep this in mind.

Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.You can't actually use a Feat twice to begin with (I apply weapon specialization x50 times, +100 damage!) and this little section addresses that unless a Feat says otherwise (empower doesn't) Feats do not stack with them selves to begin with.

[Rubik]

The Feat says "An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal"
Half again as normal, not half again since last application.
Half again as normal, not empower adds +50%.
There is no mathematical equation, empower is a state change. People know this and thats why a few have stepped forward on you Rubik.And a normal Empowered power is +50% damage. A double-Empowered power is +100% damage.


You should also always keep this in mind.
You can't actually use a Feat twice to begin with (I apply weapon specialization x50 times, +100 damage!) and this little section addresses that unless a Feat says otherwise (empower doesn't) Feats do not stack with them selves to begin with.That's for taking feats multiple times. Non sequitur.

[Mato]

No such thing as double empowered and it doesn't matter, it states a feat's benefit doesn't stack with it's self and that's all there is to it.

What, if I tell you RC129 under Arcane Preparation it flat out states "a spellcaster can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell." you'll retort "that's preparation not casting!"?

You're wrong and arguing semantics like a child wanting to stay up late on a school night.

Now, back on the real topic. Combined with my post before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17529323&postcount=28) and the Optimized Races (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8884.0)
Str: 132
Dex: 106
Con: Unfinished
Int: 74
Wis: 80+
Cha: 98
This does not include infinite loops, massive CL breaks, severe template abuse, or specific class builds. Other than one day finishing constitution this is the most complete answer I feel can give.

[Vaz]

It does work, actually. Didn't I mention that nothing in psionics says that you can't use a metapsionic feat more than once? Your argument holds no water.
Doesn't say in PHB that Fighters don't crap lasers and pixie dust to blind opponents either.

I'm also beginning to understand exactly why this forum has it's "reputation" among CharOp.

[Gemini476]

Doesn't say in PHB that Fighters don't crap lasers and pixie dust to blind opponents either.

I'm also beginning to understand exactly why this forum has it's "reputation" among CharOp.

Why, because (as previously posted)


Couple things wrong with that. Firstly Empower Power creates an empowered power, and an empowered power does exactly one and a half times more damage. This is a state change similar to Rage. IE the Power is in an Empowered State (dealing exactly 1/2 more than normal). The text is not in anyway worded or suggestive of Empower adds a +50% bonus to Spell Damage. Secondly unless specifically noted otherwise Feats don't stack with them selves. Thirdly, we're not GitP so I'm going to need to see a rules quote proving that claim (and there is none, as the author already admits).
?

I guess there is a certain tendency towards TO at all costs and be willfully ignorant in regards to rules here. Not that everyone is as bad as Pickford was, but yeah.

[Vaz]

There's a difference between "oh cool" look what I can achieve with TO a-la Pun-Pun.

For example, in my build, I came up with a completely RAW legal way of achieving Arbitrarily High Charisma.

You can get NI Stats by Reincarnating oneself and aging until Venerable, then reincarnating loop.

There is another by ignoring what is written down.

If I made a list of "what it doesn't say" in the rulebook, I'll be here all day. Lets just assume that this game is a permissive ruleset (it is) which White-lists activities, rather than black-lists activities which cannot be done with individual exception.

For example in the rules of the game article;


An unnamed bonus from a feat stacks with any other bonus; however you can't stack that unnamed bonus if you take the feat twice.
You're not taking that feat twice, you're applying it twice. But it's still the same bonus, and doesn't stack. It states "any other bonus", not the same bonus. It's still the same effect you're stacking, which across the game is a no-no.