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Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 02:56 PM
I'm going to be playing in an Eberron campaign relatively soon. Flaws are allowed. Starting at level 5, with 32 point buy.

I'm looking at playing a halfling who rides an glide wing, and am looking at going the druid rout to get there to get a really good animal companion.

"Oh no! CoDZirra!!!!"

Calm yourself. My goal is not to be a cheese weasel, although if I can snag some cheese on my way to the concept, I'm all for that.

There are 3 prestige classes I'm looking at potentially using with this.

Halfling Outrider is one of the obvious ones.

Then there's also beastmaster and one other 'rider' class from near the back of complete... warrior? Adventurer? I forget which, but it's in the same book as beast master.

My DM has allowed a Glidewing at -3 level adjustment, as it's closest analog is the dire bat. Also, while considering how to build this character I asked ahead of time, and he said that if I take Natural Bond from CoD, and got the beast master +3 to animal companion level ability, I would indeed have a companion with the abilities those a normal animal would get at my equivalent druid level +3.

I'm looking at potentially being light air support, raining projectiles of some sort down on our enemy from above, and combining that with an areal scout role.

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 04:53 PM
So is it to much cheese? Not enough cheese? Not a novel enough concept to inspire interest?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-16, 05:05 PM
*waits for Person Man*.

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 05:18 PM
Erk. Did I break a rule of the forum by accident?

Just being to impatient? *sighs* Sorry about that.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-16, 05:27 PM
Erk. Did I break a rule of the forum by accident?

Just being to impatient? *sighs* Sorry about that.

No, no, Person Man has a terrific build pretty much exactly what you're looking for.

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 05:30 PM
OH! Excellent! Thank you!

At the moment I'm planning on getting a ring of slowfalling as one of my items. Not just in case I fall off my mount either. Dropping off a glide wing onto the deck of the ship that has the group's headquarters (and other such uses) seems to be a generally cool way to go, for me.

Hyfigh
2007-02-16, 06:24 PM
Something interesting about Halflin Outrider is that it stacks with both paladin special mount AND animal companion. The Devoted Tracker feat allows you to combine the too. Paladin 5/Beastmaster 2/Halfling Outrider 10/Whatever (prefers something that stacks with paladins special mount) 3 gives you an extremely powerful mount. With the Natural Bond feat you have an effective druid level of 19 (2 beastmaster + 3 BM special ability + 4 natural bond + 10 outrider) for the companion side and an effective paladin level of 18 (if you took the last 3 as something that could improve your paladins special mount such as Cavalier) for special mount. The character itself isn't spectacular, but it could be worse.

Edit: I know it's kinda cheese, but it works (quite well). For the last 3 levels I'd take a level of the Griffon rider PrC from UE and 2 Cavalier.

Tor the Fallen
2007-02-16, 06:44 PM
You could always do the lance+charge thing as a 2HF PA+spirited charge. Add flyby or whatever the equivalent of ride-by attack, something to boost your mount's fly speed, and you've got a prety good hit and run halfling. Just charge constantly, and if you have enough move (plus the whole flying thing), you can focus on getting your damage up, rather than investing in armor.

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 06:47 PM
Okay, a couple of things here.

I'll have to look into ride by, thanks.

As for Devoted tracker... what book is that from?

jlousivy
2007-02-17, 03:36 AM
... it's too late. i saw the title.... and thought u wanted a build for a character who rides a halfling o_O

however--- what are usable flying mounts for gnomes/halflings?

JaronK
2007-02-17, 04:26 AM
Devoted Tracker I think is Complete Arcane.

Here's the build you want:

Ranger 1/Paladin 4/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Wild Plains Outrider 2/Something cool 2

Take Devoted Tracker and... there's some other feat that gives you a dragon for a companion, take that too. Then run around being a halfling of doom. I'd give you more details, but after about half a bottle of pear wine and a few glasses of sake, plus a long work day, I'm a little fried.

Good luck!

JaronK

cupkeyk
2007-02-17, 09:26 AM
But won't Paladin 4 NOT qualify to have a mount? Nor can a ranger1... The beast master is the only class that grants an animal companion since the two outriders only boost them.

Dire Hawks from Races of the Wild is your mount from level seven onwards. 1-6 should be a Brixashulty. Bixashulties can keep your opponents far enough away to initiate another charge the next round. Dire Hawks use three dimensions of maneuverability to keep the spirited charges devastating.

Consider Power Attack, Improved Bullrush and Shock Trooper on top of Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack and Spirited Charge. Since you won't be making full attacks until level 13 or 14, subtracting your Power Attack from your AC using Heedless charge gets those power attacks coming wthout sacraficing accuracy, The fact that you are riding away from your opponent after each attack keeps your low AC from being that much of a liability.

Get a Strongheart Halfling.

Pal5, BeastMaster1, Halfling Outrider 10, Wild Plains Outrider 2, ?????? 2
(Racial- Mounted Combat, 1- Mounted Archery, 3- Skill Focus,handle animal>, 6- Track, 9- Devoted Tracker, 12 Ride-by-Attack, 15- Spirited Charge)

or

Ranger4, Ftr1, Halfling Outrider 10, Wild Plains Outrider 2, ?????? 3
(Racial- Power Attack, 1-Mounted Combat, 3-Mounted Archery, Fighter-Ride by Attack, 6- Spirited Charge, 9-Improved Bullrush, 12 Shock Trooper)

Build one has a stronger mount, but has a weaker damage output himself.

Build two can deal like 300 hp damage a round on a full attack by level 13 but the mount will be a twig but you can cast Summon Nature's Ally from a wand and get a porpoise or a wolf anytime you are without a mount.

Josh Inno
2007-02-17, 01:14 PM
Well, I've been looking some things over. First of all, my character starts at level 5, and I am going to be a rider -then-. So I'm afraid I'm going to have to scrap any builds that won't give me a special mount at level 5. That includes a paladin 4/ranger 1 build.

Second, I did find devoted tracker, it's in complete adventurer. While devoted tracker certainly looks nice, it seems that it applies -only- to ranger/paladin builds, so if I don't have any levels or ranger, or any levels of paladin... woops. There goes that feat.

Another potential problem with any builds involving paladins is that I can only summon my steed once per day, and only for 2x paladin level. The devoted tracker feat also specifies that I can designate my special mount as my animal companion. That means I can only have my steed be what I can have for a paladin's mount. And with a -3 effective level adjustment on a glide-wing for a duid, I doubt I can get the glidewing starting off at 5th level... and that's important to me.

Also, I'm wondering why everyone is telling me to go melee... with a halfling... who I am going to have seated on a flying mount whenever possible.

Hyfigh
2007-02-17, 06:01 PM
Well, I've been looking some things over. First of all, my character starts at level 5, and I am going to be a rider -then-. So I'm afraid I'm going to have to scrap any builds that won't give me a special mount at level 5. That includes a paladin 4/ranger 1 build.

Second, I did find devoted tracker, it's in complete adventurer. While devoted tracker certainly looks nice, it seems that it applies -only- to ranger/paladin builds, so if I don't have any levels or ranger, or any levels of paladin... woops. There goes that feat.

The first paragraph of the feat allows your ranger and paladin levels to stack for purposes of the smite and wild empathy class features. The second paragraph allows you to designate your special mount as your animal companion. Are a druids animal companion and a rangers any different?



At 4th level, a ranger gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/badger.htm), camel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/camel.htm), dire rat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direRat.htm), dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm), riding dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm), eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm), hawk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hawk.htm), horse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm) (light or heavy), owl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owl.htm), pony (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pony.htm), snake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake) (Small or Medium viper), or wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm). If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures may be added to the ranger’s list of options: manta ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mantaRay.htm), porpoise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/porpoise.htm), Medium shark (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm), and squid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/squid.htm). This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on his adventures as appropriate for its kind.
This ability functions like the druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) ability of the same name, except that the ranger’s effective druid level is one-half his ranger level. A ranger may select from the alternative lists of animal companions just as a druid can, though again his effective druid level is half his ranger level. Like a druid, a ranger cannot select an alternative animal if the choice would reduce his effective druid level below 1st.

All I see in the SRD is that an animal companion is an animal companion no matter where you get it from. So you won't gain any extra smiting stuff, but you still advance the animal companion portion of the feat. The ability even only specifically says that "if you have both the special mount and animal companion class features, you can designate your special mount as your animal companion". It does not specify rangers animal companion. With the beastmaster levels, you have the animal companion class feature...


Another potential problem with any builds involving paladins is that I can only summon my steed once per day, and only for 2x paladin level. The devoted tracker feat also specifies that I can designate my special mount as my animal companion. That means I can only have my steed be what I can have for a paladin's mount. And with a -3 effective level adjustment on a glide-wing for a duid, I doubt I can get the glidewing starting off at 5th level... and that's important to me.

When it's functioning as your animal companion, you can have it around all the time.


Also, I'm wondering why everyone is telling me to go melee... with a halfling... who I am going to have seated on a flying mount whenever possible.

Firing arrows is fine, but take some time to do a some math. Figure a full attack of arrows compaired to a single spirited charging power attack. Your ranged full attack will reach maybe in the 80's a round if you have some EXTREMELY good equipment. The spirited charge will reach over 80 in a round with mundane items.

Imagine 5 arrows hitting a target (20BAB and a rapid shot). Figure in possible having a +4 mighty composite shortbow of fire, ice, and shock. 1d6 + 4 enhancement bonus + 4 str bonus (which would be VERY gracious for a ranged build) + 3d6 elemental damage X 5 (assuming the off chance all 5 hit) = 100 damage total that round IF the creatures not immune to any energy and has no DR.

Obtaining even reasonably high damage with any archer build is tough, let alone a build focused on a mount.

A single, loan spirited charge. We'll assume a mundane lance. 1d8 + 40 power attack (there are a couple ways to allow for a full power attack but not loose any attack bonus, 2 handed power attack ratio is 2:1) + 6 str (18 str for a melee build isn't hard to comprehend) + 2 charging damage X 3 spirited charge with a lance = 168 easily over coming the DR of any creature while not needing to worry about any energy immunity.

This number leaps exponentially with certain magic item abilities and feats. Find some way to full attack on your charge. You spell death for anything you hit.

Do you see the point?

Edit: Forgot to add damage from charging.
Edit2: I guess I should have specified that the damages were based on an average roll.

cupkeyk
2007-02-17, 08:59 PM
You are being told to melee on a mount.

Ranger4, Fighter1 is easy enough. My post has the feat selection per level.

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 11:20 AM
I have stated that the concept specifically will be using a flying mount. To Melee on a mount means, by necessity, I will be meleeing on a flying mount.

Okay, I see your point about doing melee from a mount. Very high damage. It'll take me a while to get to the feats though since I am not going to have a 'twig' mount if I can help it, especially if I have a paladin mount, but it's definitely something to look into.

As for the paladin/mount thing, I can see your point about stacking the mount abilities being viable.. but where is it that it states that the Paladin mount will stick around 24/7? All I saw it list is that I can designate my paladin mount as my animal companion. My paladin special mount only sticks around for 2 hours / level before I have to re-summon it. If It said that I could designate my animal companion as my Paladin special mount I could see where you were coming from but...

The problem with the paladin builds is that none of them seem to allow me to use a flying mount at level 5, which is an inherent part of the concept that the build is supposed to be based on.

I suppose that I could ride a mundane version of a Glide wing till next level if the DM lets me re-designate ... and until then I could use a Riding Dog as my Paladin mount, and it'd give me some ground based riding that I could use in case we ran into a dungeon area.

Hyfigh
2007-02-19, 11:49 AM
Fly-by Attack helps with your concerns about melee attacking on a flying mount. Still take the Mounted Archery feat because it doesn't hurt, it's just that with a combination of a couple feats you can score some nasty hits almost every round.

The mount sticking around is only based on the Aglorannal (Spelling?) Griffon Rider from Unaproachable East. It functions different than a special mount but it does specify the levels (level in this case) stack.

Obtaining a flying mount by level 5 is near impossible as most PrC's can only be obtained at level 6. The quickest I could think of is taking the Moonsea Sentinal from PGtF (I think) upon reaching level 6. It provides a 9HD large dire hawk mount, but that does not scale unless you take levels in the class (it specifies that it can't be an animal companion). Beyond that, the Beastmaster is taken at level 6 as well and you could take a Dire Eagle (5HD, large) or Dire Hawk (4HD I think, medium) if you stick with halfling. The DM should not have a problem with it as it's still an animal and you can just explain what the purpose is. Then when you hit level 8 and have the griffon rider just trade it in.

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 12:08 PM
Well I can have a flying mount as of level -4- as a druid. The dire bat is standard core, and has an adjustment to my druid level of -3. The glidewing has a similar druid adjustment.

And I'm afraid I don't have access to unapproachable east. I might be able to gain access though.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-19, 12:13 PM
If you're allowed Faerun stuff, Unapproachable East or Shining South (I can't recall which) has a Griffonrider class.

Hyfigh
2007-02-19, 12:15 PM
If you're allowed Faerun stuff, Unapproachable East or Shining South (I can't recall which) has a Griffonrider class.

Thats the "A" Griffonrider I've been trying to pitch. I can't remember the actual name. It's the first PrC listed in the book.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-19, 12:19 PM
Thats the "A" Griffonrider I've been trying to pitch. I can't remember the actual name. It's the first PrC listed in the book.

Aha, it IS UE.

Further, one could simply buy a flying mount, like a giant owl. It won't be a special mount, but it'll be a mount.

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 12:22 PM
I was considering doing that until I get my beast master level.

I may have to look into UE.

The problem is that this is a Eberron campaign, and the DM has specifically forbidden any sources that are specific to other campaign settings.

Hyfigh
2007-02-19, 12:24 PM
Aha, it IS UE.

Further, one could simply buy a flying mount, like a giant owl. It won't be a special mount, but it'll be a mount.

Indeed.


Well I can have a flying mount as of level -4- as a druid. The dire bat is standard core, and has an adjustment to my druid level of -3. The glidewing has a similar druid adjustment.

And I'm afraid I don't have access to unapproachable east. I might be able to gain access though.

You could, but a mounted druid isn't very optimal per se. If you want to go druid you best bet is to enhance your casting and wildshaping in general.

Pitty that you don't have UE. It is worth it as there are quite a few flavorful feats and PrC's in the book. Not much beats a griffon for a mount (aside from a dragon, but even then I personally prefer the griffon).

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 12:29 PM
I might be able to swing an adaption of the class if the theme isn't specific only to the world, but it's really iffy, so I'd prefer not to rely on it.

Hyfigh
2007-02-19, 12:43 PM
It's called Aglarondan Griffonrider. Whew...

Oddly enough I cannot find info for it on Crystalkeep. The rider isn't too campaign specific.

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 01:02 PM
Hmmm. And for some reason, I'm having trouble finding info on the strong heart halflings.

And even if I found them again, I'd be worried about dropping a +3 bonus to saves for a single feat.

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 01:14 PM
I'm going to be going with the 5 level paladin build (if I can swing the combination for a flying mount) In part because I'm going to be a halfling, so rogue is my favored class, so a 4 paladin/1 anything else build is just going to be hell on my xp.

Then there's the question of what I do if this campaign ever becomes Epic. I suppose I could continue with the beastmaster prestige class till I max it out. But the halfling rider prestige class really won't extend well, I've locked myself out of Paladin, and I can't take another base class because of the experience penalty. I'm not sure how well beast master would pan out, but hopefully it would be well enough. There's also the option of going rogue while epic I suppose.

Josh Inno
2007-02-19, 01:25 PM
Oh, and I -will- be going with the lance for attacking BBUGs, but when there are little creatures spread out that I need to take down, I'll probably be going archery.

Hyfigh
2007-02-19, 01:33 PM
Sounds like a good choice.

The Strongheart Halfling isn't absolutely required for the build. The extra feat is nice, but you can easily get by without it.