Explain Martial Study, Martial Stance, etc to me

[justiceforall]

People here keep suggesting these feats for non-ToB characters.

I don't have ToB, but I can see the feats and the lists of maneuvers and stances. What I don't understand is how you can take these feats given it says you must satisfy the prerequisites for the maneuvers/stances in order to take them. All the maneuvers I've seen list one of the ToB class-levels as prerequisites. How then do you qualify for them without a ToB class?

[Callin]

Noninitiators have a IL of half their level. The feat gives you access to a school. Dont look at them as class specific but as hey this class has access to this school.

[Yorrin]

To put in another way, when you see a class listed under a maneuver that means that the class has innate access to that maneuver. The feat is a way to access it without being a member of that class. This even works for other martial adepts, so a Warblade could take Martial Study to get a Devoted Spirit maneuver, for example.

[justiceforall]

Noninitiators have a IL of half their level. The feat gives you access to a school. Dont look at them as class specific but as hey this class has access to this school.

So you can't take these feats at 1st level because you only count as 1/2 crusader/swordsage/warblade?

[Piggy Knowles]

So you can't take these feats at 1st level because you only count as 1/2 crusader/swordsage/warblade?

That is an argument that many have had back and forth for ages; the rule about your class levels counting as 1/2 IL don't say anything about rounding either up or down, and there is no rule regarding whether or not you can have an IL of less than one.

[DeltaEmil]

So you can't take these feats at 1st level because you only count as 1/2 crusader/swordsage/warblade?

Yes. That is correct. A fighter could take a martial study feat at level 2 as a fighter bonus feat, and other classes could take them at level 3 as their normal level 3 bonus feat.

@Piggy Knowles: D&D always rounds down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#roundingFractions) unless the specific rule explicitly says to round up. A non-martial adept having an initiator level of 1/2 counts as 0, and could therefore not take any maneuvers with the martial study feat at all.

[Loxagn]

That is an argument that many have had back and forth for ages; the rule about your class levels counting as 1/2 IL don't say anything about rounding either up or down, and there is no rule regarding whether or not you can have an IL of less than one.

Official Errata says that upon taking these feats your minimum IL is 1.

[justiceforall]

Yes. That is correct. A fighter could take a martial study feat at level 2 as a fighter bonus feat, and other classes could take them at level 3 as their normal level 3 bonus feat.

@Piggy Knowles: D&D always rounds down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#roundingFractions) unless the specific rule explicitly says to round up. A non-martial adept having an initiator level of 1/2 counts as 0, and could therefore not take any maneuvers with the martial study feat at all.

Ok so for an example, a fighter could take martial study in a Shadow Hand maneuver at 2nd, martial stance for a Shadow Hand stance with the 3rd level feat, then qualify fot the Shadow Blade feat? (Shadow Blade is the feat that comes up most in suggestions)

Then the use of these feats would still have to follow the restrictions on Shadow Hand weapons (whatever those are)?

[Loxagn]

Ok so for an example, a fighter could take martial study in a Shadow Hand maneuver at 2nd, martial stance for a Shadow Hand stance with the 3rd level feat, then qualify fot the Shadow Blade feat? (Shadow Blade is the feat that comes up most in suggestions)

Then the use of these feats would still have to follow the restrictions on Shadow Hand weapons (whatever those are)?

Shadow Hand weapons are the dagger, sai, Siangham, short sword, spiked chain, and unarmed strike.

[DeltaEmil]

Official Errata says that upon taking these feats your minimum IL is 1.Where is that official errata that says that? The only official "errata" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) that I know suddenly turns into the errata for Complete Mage.

[Loxagn]

Where is that official errata that says that? The only official "errata" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) that I know suddenly turns into the errata for Complete Mage.

Can't access it at the moment, but I'm quite sure I found one on the official wizards site. Of course, I might just be going crazy and remembering things that never happened, but I'm sure that I read it somewhere.

[Karnith]

Where is that official errata that says that? The only official "errata" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) that I know suddenly turns into the errata for Complete Mage.
There is no official errata to that effect (or even a FAQ answer, for that matter), but it is a part of the unofficial errata (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0).

[Loxagn]

There is no official errata to that effect (or even a FAQ answer, for that matter), but it is a part of the unofficial errata (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0).

Aaaah. That might be where I got it from. Apologies.

[justiceforall]

Ok so I'm taking from this that I need to follow Delta's original post - 2nd level onwards.

The maneuver feat states you can only use the maneuver once a day if you have no initiator levels. Is there any way to increase this without taking a level of initiator (or the same feat multiple times)?

The martial stance feat doesn't state it has uses per day, so I assume the stance from the feat can be used and maintained as long as you want?

[DeltaEmil]

A character with no martial adept levels can use any maneuver learned through the martial study feat once per encounter, not only once per day. However, they have no recovery method, that's all. Psionic characters can recover an expended maneuver with the Psychic Renewal feat in Tome of Battle.

Stances can be entered at-will whenever the opportunity rises.

[justiceforall]

Stances can be entered at-will whenever the opportunity rises.

So you can just walk around all day in a stance?

[Alex12]

So you can just walk around all day in a stance?

Yes. Changing stances is a swift action.

[Zombimode]

That is an argument that many have had back and forth for ages; the rule about your class levels counting as 1/2 IL don't say anything about rounding either up or down, and there is no rule regarding whether or not you can have an IL of less than one.

This is actually quite easy to solve. So have an IL of 1/2. Sure, it is not 0, but more importantly, it is not 1 either. And the prerequisites for maneuvers state IL 1 (or more). So, upon trying to qualify for a 1st level maneuver via Martial Study it is checked: "is your IL 1 or higher?" Since an 1 HD creature with no martial adept levels has an IL of 1/2 and thus not 1 the answer is "no". The result: you don't qualify.