What LA is Vampire Worth?

[asnys]

Vampires get a ton of very cool and very powerful abilities: create spawn, energy drain, gaseous form, fast healing, etc. They also get some nasty weaknesses, like blowing up if they get hit by sunlight, and what amounts to a "you don't need to roll to turn me" vulnerability to holy symbols.

The general wisdom seems to be that their +8 LA, all told, isn't close to worth it, and I wouldn't dispute that. My question is, at what LA would it be worth taking the template?

[Phelix-Mu]

The main problem with the vampire template is that it really describes an incredibly powerful creature. The energy drain slam attacks mean that it kills like 75% of everyone ever by barely trying. The weaknesses are profound, but also situational, and largely easy for the vamp to counter and/or avoid. Furthermore, actually killing them is ridiculously hard for the baseline, low-op group, even given the standard lore.

So, really, a better solution than lowering the LA would be to create a more pedestrian vamp that could actually be something other than certain death before level 7 or so. I've always taken the given vampire template to be more of an upper-crust, experienced vampire.

That said, I'd say that the template is at minimum +4, and I'd be more inclined to go with +5 or +6. Especially given the ease of building around the vamp weaknesses with class levels.

[pilvento]

I havent read them with much attention but if you can get your hands on the ravenloft campaing setting book it has a diferent set of rules to build the vampire template based on their age much like dragons in the 3.5 SRD. They go from LA +2 to +10 based on age and you get a big table of stat bonuses and special abilities to pick based on that age, every vampire you build can be diferent.

[ericgrau]

Core LAs actually tend to be pretty good for high level core builds (assuming no semi-infinite loop/stacking cheese and so on) or a similar level of optimization. They fall apart with any amount of optimization and at low level. Right off the bat I'd reduce any LA to about 2/3 at low level even without optimization. Beyond that it depends on your level of optimization. But for a lot of playgrounders who like to optimize cutting LAs in half across the board for all creatures wouldn't be a bad idea. RHD gets more complicated because for example outsider & dragon HD are better than humanoid HD. For low optimization dragon HD are almost as good as class levels; for high op not so much.

Some abilities become nearly obsolete at super high level and aren't worth as much LA at that point. Like flight. But not most abilities. Vampires only have a couple abilities that go fully obsolete that weren't that good in the first place.

So vampires should have at least 3 LA, and possibly up to the full 8. But you seem savvy enough that it's closer to 3 than 8.

[Blackhawk748]

With core Vampire i use their 3.0 LA which was +5 and just expressly ban the Vampire Spawn pyramid. That being said if you want to feel like a Vampire, there are several pretty good homebrewed templates around here. Heres Neophoenix's which has feats to go with it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?290290-3-5-Vampire-lite

[Xaktsaroth]

When it comes to vampires, my favourite thing to do is just make a human Necropolitian, then grab the Vampire Fangs graft, and the Evolved Undead template.

For +1 LA and 25k gold, you basically are a vampire. Hell, when you get a higher level, grab the spell-stitched template and use that to grab all the spell-like abilities from the vampire template.

Additionally, you have no vampire weakness, so that's nice too. :D

[Angelalex242]

In general, the fair thing to do is to take the cheapest of

3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder.

In this case, Pathfinder is cheapest, with a mere +2.

Now being a vampire is actually an ADVANTAGE! If being a vampire is only a +2 LA now, PCs might actually be tempted to seek it out. And that's a good thing. Evil should be tempting, that's the point.

You can even make it more of one with Mastermind, Noble Dead, Sunlight Resistance, and Swarm Form stacked together, for the low low price of...+0, so it's still just a +2 challenge rating.

[Zanos]

In my opinion, the dominate power should be tweaked and the ability to command enslaved vampire should be axed. Commanding vampire spawn is fine, but slaves with class levels is a no-no.

Assuming you fix the broken minonmancy potential I'd call it a +3.

[Angelalex242]

Actually...here's a thought.

What if the whole POINT of the Vampire template is minionmancy?

In which case, we should then be asking ourselves...

In a 20th level party, how many minions does the 12th level vampire need to pull his weight?

Assume the standard Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party, with the vampire as the 5th member.

How many minions does he need to be relevant?

[Ionbound]

In my opinion, the dominate power should be tweaked and the ability to command enslaved vampire should be axed. Commanding vampire spawn is fine, but slaves with class levels is a no-no.

Assuming you fix the broken minonmancy potential I'd call it a +3.

Of course you think that.

In seriousness, I think Pathfinder is a little to low LA, but +3/+4 is about fine. At high levels, a lot of the Su and SLAs become a whole lot of useless, with the exception of Gaseous Form and Children of the Night, and the ability bonuses are about in that range as well.

[Gemini476]

Actually...here's a thought.

What if the whole POINT of the Vampire template is minionmancy?

In which case, we should then be asking ourselves...

In a 20th level party, how many minions does the 12th level vampire need to pull his weight?

Assume the standard Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party, with the vampire as the 5th member.

How many minions does he need to be relevant?

Well, let's take a look at the CR. Which is wrong, obviously, but a good thing to look at to wonder what the hell Wizards were thinking.
A level 20 character is CR 20.
A level 12 Vampire is CR 14.
Double the amount means +2CR, so eight level 12 vampires (PC+2 spawn+4 spawn's spawn+1 spawn's spawn's spawn) is CR 20.

That may not necessarily be true - are eight parties worth of level 12 Vampires really equal in strength to one party of level 20 adventurers?

I personally suspect that Wizard's give things a certain LA when 1+LA would be the level neccessary for a PC to get access to the SLAs the template gives - so CL 9 for Dominate Person in this case.
What they really should have done is simply level-locked the templates so you can't take them when you are below a certain level, but yeah.

Come to think of it, in the case of the Vampire the lowest possible level to get the template is level 5, due to how the Create Spawn ability works. So ECL 13.
IMO that means that the template should be LA+4 at the most, but yeah. And get the Create Spawn ability nerfed so that your spawn can betray you.

[Angelalex242]

Well...I dunno.

What if the vampire chooses his minions wisely?

Maybe he gets a druid minion, a cleric minion, a wizard minion, a sorcerer minion, a bard minion, a specialist necromancer wizard minion, and specialist conjurer wizard minion.

Is the Vampire and his 7 buddies pulling their weight with the 4 level 20 characters they adventure with?

Because now there's /12/ people in the party, and 8 of them are the vampire and his enslaved underlings.

Are they pulling their weight with the level 20 guys?

[Gemini476]

I guess the question is whether or not any number of sixth-level spells can be more powerful than a lesser amount of ninth-level spells.

[Angelalex242]

More powerful? Probably not. More versatile? Very possibly.

More powerful then the fighter and the rogue? Most certainly. Particularly the bard and the sorcerer, who have charisma through the roof and can abuse a vampire's innate abilities more easily then the other minions. The rogue and fighter should be easily dominated by the charisma heavy minions.

Of course, I'm not talking about 8 12th level vampires vs. 4 20th level characters.

[Gemini476]

Of course, you've also got to look at what that LA costs you. For a Bard, that's 5th and 6th level spells, 6d6+20*Con HP, -2(and lose con modifier) fort/-2 ref/-3 will saves, and +6/+1 BAB.
However, you gain an average of 36 HP from getting your hit dice turned into d12s. And if you got turned on a desecrated dark altar you'd have 11d12+36, which might be better than the 19d6+6+20*Con. Maybe. If you had 14 Con beforehand then it isn't.

Your vampire abilities are also DC 16+Cha, which is a bit lacking.

You also get a slam, which means that you can attack at +9/+4/+4 if you want to. Rather than +15/+10/+5. The energy drain is nice, but you're a bit behind in BAB - the level 20 Kobold Sorcerer is possibly better in melee than you are.

I guess the real thing to do would be to look at the CR 18-21 monsters and see if you could be credit to team when fighting them.
Nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler), Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor), Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend), Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm), Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm).

Or to look at CR 13 monsters and see if a level 5 vampire has a chance against them, so we get the two extremes of the scale. Like the Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm), Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#glabrezu), or twelve-headed pyro/cryohydras (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm).

[Inevitability]

Cough. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)

This may pump the LA up by one or two points.

[Gemini476]

Cough. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)

This may pump the LA up by one or two points.

That's only usable by the not-commonly-used-but-sadly-RAW rule that templates that don't mention LA are LA+0 rather than being like monsters without LA (a.k.a. unplayable).

I mean, I like the template and the possibilities that said rule opens, but in a case like this you shouldn't boost the LA on one template because another template might make it stronger. You just add LA to the other template.

[Ionbound]

Yeah, if I'm making a vampire PC, I'll toss that on with it if the GM lets me get away with it. It really is worth the full +8 of the vampire LA.

[Komatik]

That's only usable by the not-commonly-used-but-sadly-RAW rule that templates that don't mention LA are LA+0 rather than being like monsters without LA (a.k.a. unplayable).

I mean, I like the template and the possibilities that said rule opens, but in a case like this you shouldn't boost the LA on one template because another template might make it stronger. You just add LA to the other template.

I like Vampire Lord a lot. It's much more functional as an adventurer and the never truly dead thing is ace. I really love how they deal with being in sunlight. Lots of interesting SLAs too. Sadly also retarded big numbers and Dominate via voice and other stupid ****. And Leadership because voice-dominate is not enough stupid ****.

[pwykersotz]

That's only usable by the not-commonly-used-but-sadly-RAW rule that templates that don't mention LA are LA+0 rather than being like monsters without LA (a.k.a. unplayable).

I mean, I like the template and the possibilities that said rule opens, but in a case like this you shouldn't boost the LA on one template because another template might make it stronger. You just add LA to the other template.

I hate that I can't find the relevant link right now, but I remember reading that the Vampire Lord has no additional LA because the designers intended it to be automatic for PC's. They acknowledged that LA +8 was excessive and that the Vampire Lord was designed to help compensate.