Race Selection for Reaping Mauler

[Red Fel]

Okay. So I'm working on a build for a Reaping Mauler (which some of you might remember (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349037-Lyrical-Tokarev-Kill-Them-All!-%28A-Build-Thread%29)). Right now, it's a grapple build that uses Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered to cause things to cower, and Jotunbrud + Clever Wrestling to gain bonuses to grapple pretty much everything.

Here's the issue. The build as-proposed is a bit feat-starved, so it uses Human as the base race. However, for a variety of reasons, it uses the Unseelie Fey template. In some ways, this is very useful - the template grants DR, plus a really useful debuff, plus wings. The problem is the ability scores - Unseelie Fey gets bonuses to Dex and Cha (the latter being awesome for Intimidate) but penalties to Str and Con (creating problems for grappling and maintaining rage).

The build itself is a bit MAD; it needs Str for grappling and damage output, Cha for Intimidate and its Winter ability, Wis for its Reaping Mauler specials, and potentially Con to maintain rage and keep from dying.

Using Human as the base grants me a bonus feat, but leaves me dealing with the penalties to two major stats for a grappler. Hence the dilemma, as follows: What race, if any, would be a better choice for this build?

I've looked into options. Some include: Skarn (MoI): Offsets the Str penalty, offsets the Dex bonus. Adds spikes, adds an Intimidate bonus. Neanderthal (Frostburn): Offsets Str and Con penalties, and the Dex bonus, adds an Int penalty. Gives some weapon proficiencies I'll never use, plus Cold Endurance, plus allows the character to be treated as human, and imposes illiteracy. Thematically an okay choice; mechanically a bit of a nuisance, I think. Feral-Kind Cyclopean (Dragon Magazine): Stats same as Neanderthal, don't know much else about it. Darfellan (Stormwrack): Offsets Str penalty and Dex bonus. Aquatic bonuses. It's a freaking orca. Earth Dwarf (UA): Plus side, offsets the Str and Con penalties. Minus side, offsets the Dex and Cha boni. Also, freaking dwarf. Wood Elf (MM): Offsets Str penalty, further boosts Dex, takes Int penalty and dunks Con in the toilet. Ugh. Various Half-Orc: Most offset the Str penalty and Cha bonus, and add an Int penalty. One (Desert) offsets the Con penalty instead, and doesn't touch Cha. Krynn Minotaur (DL Camp Set): Boosts Str, offsets Dex and Cha, penalizes Int. Various Orcs: Boost Str, penalize Cha and other mental stats.

I'm also willing to look at races with a (small) LA, but I admit to feeling a bit overwhelmed here. I could really use the help. Bottom line: Is it better just to keep Human for the feat, or am I overlooking a race that will really make this build shine?

[Aegis013]

If you can buy off the LA, Half-Minotaur from Dragon Mag #313. Effectively +12 to Str, +6 Con, -2 Int, -2 Dex and you increase to Large size, allowing you to skip Jotunbrud for another feat.

The stats come from the template (+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int) plus the table under Size Increases (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improving_Creatures).

[WinWin]

You want 3 levels of Leviathan Hunter. Clever Wrestling as a bonus feat and you can ignore the prerequisites for the feat. This means you can increase your size and keep your class features.

You're still a Reaping Mauler though, the class Monks laugh at, so can't help you there. If you can afford it, pick up Choke Hold from OA.

If you just want to be a good grappler, play a Wizard. Balor Nimbus FTW.

[Red Fel]

If you can buy off the LA, Half-Minotaur from Dragon Mag #313. Effectively +12 to Str, +6 Con, -2 Int, -2 Dex and you increase to Large size, allowing you to skip Jotunbrud for another feat.

The stats come from the template (+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int) plus the table under Size Increases (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improving_Creatures).

The problem with being Large is that it disqualifies me from taking Clever Wrestling. Is it worth that?


You want 3 levels of Leviathan Hunter. Clever Wrestling as a bonus feat and you can ignore the prerequisites for the feat. This means you can increase your size and keep your class features.

Where were you in my last thread?

So, let's see... Leviathan Hunter requires two feats I had no intention of taking, plus a Ranger dip for favored enemy. Then three levels in I get Clever Wrestling. So that's an investment of a minimum of 4 levels (1 Ranger, 3 Leviathan Hunter) plus two feats. For that, I get... A bonus on enemy identification checks, a trophy that grants me an AC bonus against a very specific creature type, a 1d6 damage bonus to Huge or larger monsters, and Clever Wrestling.

I'll grant you, Clever Wrestling without having to be Medium is nice, and would go nicely with the Half-Minotaur cited above. But it seems like an awfully substantial investment.


You're still a Reaping Mauler though, the class Monks laugh at, so can't help you there. If you can afford it, pick up Choke Hold from OA.

If you just want to be a good grappler, play a Wizard. Balor Nimbus FTW.

Again, where were you in my last thread? That's a very nice spell for a grappler.

Choke Hold is redundant, since Reaping Mauler gets that for free at level 4, although RM's version doesn't work on the crit-immune.

And Monk can laugh all it wants. After three rounds, it has to make a Fort save (while taking a penalty equal to my RM's Cha bonus) or freaking die.

So... Did you have a race suggestion in there?

[Doc_Maynot]

Arthasian Human, Dragon #319. +2 to two ability scores, a bit of psionic powers. +1LA
Azurin, Magic of Incarnum. Bonus feat, +1 Essentia (Useful if you want to dip totemist for girallon arms) +0LA
Half-Minotaur Strongheart Halfing, Dragon #313 & FRCS. +6 to Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, Bonus feat, Medium size. +1 LA

[Red Fel]

Arthasian Human, Dragon #319. +2 to two ability scores, a bit of psionic powers. +1LA
Azurin, Magic of Incarnum. Bonus feat, +1 Essentia (Useful if you want to dip totemist for girallon arms) +0LA
Half-Minotaur Strongheart Halfing, Dragon #313 & FRCS. +6 to Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, Bonus feat, Medium size. +1 LA

The Azurin isn't particularly useful, since I don't plan to take any Incarnum feats or classes with this build.

The Athasian Human is... Huh. And that's to any two ability scores? And does it still get the bonus feat, or is that traded out for the psionics?

The Half-Minotaur Strongheart Halfling, though, might be a winner. Let's see. We start with Halfling traits, -2 Str, +2 Dex, Small size, other traits. We add Strongheart, which means swapping out the +1 to all saves for a bonus feat. We add Half-Minotaur, which sizes up to Medium, adds +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, so we're now at a net of +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Int. (Or does sizing up also boost ability scores? I forget.) We also add a bunch of nifty Minotaur features. (Scent! Yay!) Next, we add Unseelie Fey, which adds -2 Str and Con, +2 Dex and Cha, for a net of +4 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Int. We also add nifty Unseelie Fey features (DR and Winter! Yay!) We're left with no penalties to key stats, a bonus to Cha and Dex, and a host of nifty little abilities. And a bonus feat.

And it's a total of LA +1. Yeah... On the one hand, I don't see the DM granting this request, but on the other, if he did? It would be about seven kinds of perfect, right there.

[Doc_Maynot]

The Athasian Human is... Huh. And that's to any two ability scores? And does it still get the bonus feat, or is that traded out for the psionics?

The Half-Minotaur Strongheart Halfling, though, might be a winner. Let's see. We start with Halfling traits, -2 Str, +2 Dex, Small size, other traits. We add Strongheart, which means swapping out the +1 to all saves for a bonus feat. We add Half-Minotaur, which sizes up to Medium, adds +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, so we're now at a net of +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Int. (Or does sizing up also boost ability scores? I forget.) We also add a bunch of nifty Minotaur features. (Scent! Yay!) Next, we add Unseelie Fey, which adds -2 Str and Con, +2 Dex and Cha, for a net of +4 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Int. We also add nifty Unseelie Fey features (DR and Winter! Yay!) We're left with no penalties to key stats, a bonus to Cha and Dex, and a host of nifty little abilities. And a bonus feat.

And it's a total of LA +1. Yeah... On the one hand, I don't see the DM granting this request, but on the other, if he did? It would be about seven kinds of perfect, right there.

Traded out for the psionics.

Sizing up boosts ability scores. So, adding in Unseelie fey would bring it to...
+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence.

[Khatoblepas]

The problem with being Large is that it disqualifies me from taking Clever Wrestling. Is it worth that?

Problem is, Clever Wrestling doesn't even do anything you want it to do:


When your opponent is larger than Medium size, you gain a circumstance bonus on your grapple check to escape a grapple or pin.

Key words: Escape a grapple. You don't want to escape a grapple, you want the enemy to be in a grapple with you.

The reason why people suggest Leviathan Hunter for Clever Wrestling is that on it's own, Clever Wrestling makes you a much worse grappler (requires Medium-, doesn't actually give you any bonus to grappling), and Reaping Mauler does nothing to mitigate that. You need to be Large+ to even think of grappling. I dunno, an Unseelie Primordial Half-Minotaur Half-Giant grapples as a Huge creature and has a +6 Cha bonus, for LA+2. You may want to consider that.

[Red Fel]

Problem is, Clever Wrestling doesn't even do anything you want it to do:

Key words: Escape a grapple. You don't want to escape a grapple, you want the enemy to be in a grapple with you.

Sonofacrap. I utterly misread that. That is... So not helpful to me. Thank you.


The reason why people suggest Leviathan Hunter for Clever Wrestling is that on it's own, Clever Wrestling makes you a much worse grappler (requires Medium-, doesn't actually give you any bonus to grappling), and Reaping Mauler does nothing to mitigate that. You need to be Large+ to even think of grappling.

Which is what Jotunbrud is for.


I dunno, an Unseelie Primordial Half-Minotaur Half-Giant grapples as a Huge creature and has a +6 Cha bonus, for LA+2. You may want to consider that.

Hmm... Okay. Let's calculate this. Starting with Half-Giant, for +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, Powerful Build (counts as Large), PLAs. Adding Primordial, -4 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha, SLAs. Half-Minotaur, +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, size up to Large (so Powerful Build = Huge), other features. Unseelie Fey, -2 Str, -2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, other features. Net ability scores are +0 Str, +0 Con, +0 Dex, +2 Int, +0 Wis, +6 Cha, (as you said) with SLAs and PLAs, Fey (Psionic). No bonus feat, but it no longer needs Jotunbrud, and I've now realized I don't need Clever Wrestling either. +2 LA can be bought off. Holy crumbs, this thing is insane. My hat, it is off.

[WinWin]

Reaping Mauler has Clever Wrestling as a prerequitite. PrC's from CW are lose their benefits if you lose the prerequisites. Increasing size invaliidates the prerequisites for Clever Wrestling.

Leviathan Hunter can ignore the size requirement for Clever Wrestling, thus allowing a Reaping Mauler to increase their size and retain the benefits of the PrC.

Duergar (psionic) might be an option for the race if you take this path. Their Expansion ability is limited though. Otherwise, just go with a Large race.

You might just decide to play a Queequeg clone from Moby **** (thematic tie to Leviathan Hunter) and cover yourself in tattoo's. Psionic Tatoos can be made semi-permenant via this article (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a), though it requires some investment and the Tattoo's require a reserve of Power Points if you want to use Transducers to recharce Capacitors quickly. This option may be useful is you don't want to devote levels to a Psionic Class in order to pick up only a few powers that you want to repeatedly use as a mid/high level manifester (Expansion and Grip of Iron come to mind). Multiple Relays of the same power set can be picked up as you can afford them. There is a handbook out there somewhere. If you go with this option, realise that a Capacitor is limited in how many PP it regenerates per day. A race with a ML and a PP reserve can invest in Cognizence Crystals to aid in recharging tattoo's mid adventure and fill up their Crystals during downtime.

If you ake a few levels of an Arcane Class with access to Sorc/Wiz spells, you will be able to use such Grapplemancer staples like Babau Slime, Balor Nimbus and Fearsome Grapple. Just look up Grapplemancer on google to get the picture.

Honestly though, the Choke Hold feat is a slightly improved version of the RM Sleeper Hold class feature, so you should take it if you can. Look it up on D&D tools.

Black Blood Cultist is considered by some to be the optimal PrC for a grapple build. Try and find the 339 handbook. It might give you some ideas. While it is focused on tearing up opponents with natural attacks while grappling, it also had a lot of info on optimizing grappling.

edit: The prudish forum edited the "Richard" from Moby ****, the classic novel by Herman Melville. Mindless ******* censorship.

[dascarletm]

Question: (this may be addressed in the other thread) How do you deal with Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm)?

[Red Fel]

Question: (this may be addressed in the other thread) How do you deal with Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm)?

Answer (and it was addressed in the other thread): I would fail. I am fully aware of the fact that grappling can be completely shut down by a single spell (several, if you count spells like Heart of Water). Thus is the fate of all non-casters.


Reaping Mauler has Clever Wrestling as a prerequitite. PrC's from CW are lose their benefits if you lose the prerequisites. Increasing size invaliidates the prerequisites for Clever Wrestling.

... See, this is what happens when I post in a build thread while (1) barely awake, and (2) in a rush. I do stupid things like this. Thank you for catching that.


Leviathan Hunter can ignore the size requirement for Clever Wrestling, thus allowing a Reaping Mauler to increase their size and retain the benefits of the PrC.

I'm beginning to see your logic here.


Duergar (psionic) might be an option for the race if you take this path. Their Expansion ability is limited though. Otherwise, just go with a Large race.

You might just decide to play a Queequeg clone from Moby **** (thematic tie to Leviathan Hunter) and cover yourself in tattoo's. Psionic Tatoos can be made semi-permenant via this article (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a), though it requires some investment and the Tattoo's require a reserve of Power Points if you want to use Transducers to recharce Capacitors quickly. This option may be useful is you don't want to devote levels to a Psionic Class in order to pick up only a few powers that you want to repeatedly use as a mid/high level manifester (Expansion and Grip of Iron come to mind). Multiple Relays of the same power set can be picked up as you can afford them. There is a handbook out there somewhere. If you go with this option, realise that a Capacitor is limited in how many PP it regenerates per day. A race with a ML and a PP reserve can invest in Cognizence Crystals to aid in recharging tattoo's mid adventure and fill up their Crystals during downtime.

I'm a bit reluctant to dive into psionics here, much as I'm a bit reluctant to dive into Incarnum on this build. But point made.


If you ake a few levels of an Arcane Class with access to Sorc/Wiz spells, you will be able to use such Grapplemancer staples like Babau Slime, Balor Nimbus and Fearsome Grapple. Just look up Grapplemancer on google to get the picture.

Okay. See, this is just you reading my mind, and it's creepy, stop that. Since this thread is rapidly turning into a redux of the previous thread (seriously, where were you guys?) let me re-state the original build prompt.


The goal is to create a character who captures the essence of Punie Tanaka - an adorable magical girl with sweet conjurations and brutal physical prowess. As always, the rules: Sources: First party only. Dragon Magazine discouraged; Dragon Compendium acceptable. 3.5 recommended, 3.0 permitted, no PF. Races and Templates: Any, but LA +0 preferred. Classes: Any. Must have unarmed combat ability, specifically grappling. Ability to cripple enemies strongly encouraged. Must have some degree of magical ability. Summon Nature's Ally/Summon Monster preferred. Conjuration spells preferred. Alignment: Seriously Evil. Vile feats wouldn't be out of place. But note that she cannot be obviously Evil. Because, you know, adorable little magical girl. Levels: 1-20. Special: Adorable familiar or other intelligent animal companion required, may be taken via feat. Must be intelligent; may be capable of speech. May be Evil. May try to murder her on multiple occasions. Military veteran preferred. Cheese: Mild cheddar. No gorgonzola.
Some ideas I've had for this character include: Melee Warlock. Pros: Unarmed combat, magical ability, evil flavor. Cons: No natural familiar, and the magic should be more Conjuration and Summoning, and less PewPew. Cleric. Pros: Solid combat chassis, good buffs. Cons: The traditional Cleric is an armored, heavily armed tank of a warrior. Punie should be a lightweight, unarmed facepuncher with some Conjuration tricks. Druid. Pros: Powerful combatant, SNA. Cons: Combat generally requires Wild Shape; Punie is an adorable little girl, not a bear. Unseelie Fey template. Pros: Evil, adorable, and scary (bonus to Intimidate). Winter Chill gives a penalty to enemies within 5 feet - and she's a grappler. Cons: Dragon Magazine.

So it looks like we're going to try this again. Yes, I think a grapplemancer would be fun. I liked the RM because it did what I needed her to do (put people into brutal, bone-breaking submission holds) but I was sad that the idea precluded casting. I welcome more detailed caster-grappler (grapplemancer, sure) suggestions.


Honestly though, the Choke Hold feat is a slightly improved version of the RM Sleeper Hold class feature, so you should take it if you can. Look it up on D&D tools.

I looked it up. You're right. It lacks the Sleeper Hold limitation on the crit-immune. On the other hand, it's got some heavy prereqs.


Black Blood Cultist is considered by some to be the optimal PrC for a grapple build. Try and find the 339 handbook. It might give you some ideas. While it is focused on tearing up opponents with natural attacks while grappling, it also had a lot of info on optimizing grappling.

Thought about it. On the one hand, it makes a grappler more brutal, inasmuch as it adds a host of natural attacks to your grappling. It's not intrinsic to the build, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.

So, let's start from scratch. Racial selections, class selections, everything. Clean slate, let's go.

[WinWin]

Queequeg. Human. Cloistered Cleric 1/Battle Dancer 1/Ranger 3/Chameleon 7/Leviathan Hunter 3/Reaping Mauler 5

Feats: Able Learner, Extend Spell, Improved Unarmed Strike, Track, Persist Spell, Combat Style Bonus, Endurance, DMM Persist Spell, Clever Wrestling, Improved Grapple, Mobility, 4 feats from levelling free, as well as the bonus feat from Chameleon. Room for Stunning Fist and Choke Hold if you want. You probably don't need DMM:Persist Spell either, but who are we kidding? If you can, you should.

Gear includes Maori styled Psionic Tattoos, a harpoon, a shark-tooth necklace (holy symbol) and a loincloth.

Could add templates such as Chameleon Creature and Feral, but as this is not a Black Blood Cultist build, you don't need the reptilian subtype (for Scaled Horror) or natural weapons. But then again, a Chameleon creature with Chameleon class levels is funny.

[Red Fel]

Queequeg. Human. Cloistered Cleric 1/Battle Dancer 1/Ranger 3/Chameleon 7/Leviathan Hunter 3/Reaping Mauler 5

Feats: Able Learner, Extend Spell, Improved Unarmed Strike, Track, Persist Spell, Combat Style Bonus, Endurance, DMM Persist Spell, Clever Wrestling, Improved Grapple, Mobility, 4 feats from levelling free, as well as the bonus feat from Chameleon. Room for Stunning Fist and Choke Hold if you want. You probably don't need DMM:Persist Spell either, but who are we kidding? If you can, you should.

Gear includes Maori styled Psionic Tattoos, a harpoon, a shark-tooth necklace (holy symbol) and a loincloth.

Could add templates such as Chameleon Creature and Feral, but as this is not a Black Blood Cultist build, you don't need the reptilian subtype (for Scaled Horror) or natural weapons. But then again, a Chameleon creature with Chameleon class levels is funny.

Okay. Let me process this.

Human, so that means bonus feat. Groovy. CC1 gets me simple weapons, light armor, Knowledge domain bonus, knowledge skills. (I assume I'll be taking Knowledge Devotion?) Able Learner as human bonus feat, Extend+Persist+DMM Persist, makes sense. IUS comes from BD1, which also gets me Cha to AC. Ran3 gets me Favored Enemy (for LevHun), Track, Combat Style (is there an Unarmed Combat Style ACF?), Endurance. Groovy. Cham7 gets me my +4 Aptitude Focus 2/day (Divine Casting, I assume?), and I can do both at once, floating bonus feat, Mimic Class Feature 2/day (would these count as extra TU uses for DMM?), and +4 to an ability score when I change my Aptitude Focus. Wowzers. Not sure what I'd even do with half of those features. LevHun3 gets me my bonus on Knowledge and Survival checks (does that stack with Knowledge Devotion?), the Trophy trick, damage bonus against Huge things, and Clever Wrestling. (Given that this applies even if I don't otherwise qualify, wouldn't it be better to be a Large race for this?) And RM5 is RM5, the win.

While I love the Queequeg motif, it's not exactly the image I was going for. (The original prompt was for an adorable little girl who happened to be an absolute grappling terror.) I also don't see weapons (e.g. Harpoon) coming into this, and I'm still not sure what I'd do with Psionic Tattoos (except perhaps Expansion).

Do I have it about right?

[WinWin]

Human is required for the bonus feat and Chameleon entry. If there is a large race that can take Able Learner, then by all means, take it. Otherwise, this build will not work.

The harpoon is not essential, just there as a joke ranged option that can potentially slow down mobile opponents, making them easier to chase down and grapple.

You don't need 3 levels of Ranger, just 1 for Track. The Combat Style feat is worthless, though you may be able to get Multiattack with the Fangshields Ranger variant, assuming a Feral Human qualifies and you elect to take the Feral template. This gives you some limited options to play around with if you want to dump a level or 2.

Battle Dancer gives Improved Unarmed Strike. Reaping Maulers tend toward light or no armour, so the Charisma bonus to AC helps out here. You'll probably want a decent Charisma if you're running DMM anyway.

Cleric Domains are left blank intentionally. Knowledge Devotion is probably a good trade. You may as well pick up domains that give you something like a feat, because Cleric is in this build primarily for DMM tricks with Divine spells granted by Chameleon.

Chameleon is there for Persisted buff spells. These must be Divine spells according to my reading, but that is a fairly expansive list (hint: Archivist). so you won't be short of spells you can run full time, just short of Turning uses/day to run them all. Balor Nimbus is on the Cleric list, by the way. Extend your favorite Persisted buffs if you can. Chameleon also gives you options other than grappling in scenarios where grappling will be counter productive or place your character at undue risk. You have the option to cast a few Arcane spells if you need to, though you will not be benefiting from DMM. As I understand it, the Mimic Class feature can be used to grant you extra uses of Turn Undead per day, but it will not grant you a new, seperate pool.

This is still a Multiple Attribute Dependant build. You'll want a fairly even spread of attributes and can't really afford to dump a stat. The only thing you'll want to focus on is Charisma and Constitution. You can rely on attribute boosting items and spells to enhance your other attributes.

Final Note. I think I forgot to include Iron Will. The other feat required for Leviathan Hunter.

I would have preferred Chameleon 10 in order to make a grappler, but you wanted a Reaping Mauler. So, here you go. If you want a variant of this build, simply remove Reaping Mauler and Leviathan Hunter and replace them with 8 levels of Black Blood Cultist. Replace a Ranger level with Barbarian, too.

[Red Fel]

Human is required for the bonus feat and Chameleon entry. If there is a large race that can take Able Learner, then by all means, take it. Otherwise, this build will not work.

Half-Minotaur template, mentioned above, does not change type, but increases size. So, that's a Large Human right there.


You don't need 3 levels of Ranger, just 1 for Track. The Combat Style feat is worthless, though you may be able to get Multiattack with the Fangshields Ranger variant, assuming a Feral Human qualifies and you elect to take the Feral template. This gives you some limited options to play around with if you want to dump a level or 2.

Yep, Feral template makes the base a Monstrous Humanoid. That would qualify for Fangshields Ranger ACFs, and justifies taking Ranger 2 for Multiattack. No reason to take Ranger 3, though. Also, does changing type to Monstrous Humanoid disqualify for Chameleon? Or is it okay, because she's still Monstrous Humanoid (Human)?


Battle Dancer gives Improved Unarmed Strike. Reaping Maulers tend toward light or no armour, so the Charisma bonus to AC helps out here. You'll probably want a decent Charisma if you're running DMM anyway.

Right, caught that.


Cleric Domains are left blank intentionally. Knowledge Devotion is probably a good trade. You may as well pick up domains that give you something like a feat, because Cleric is in this build primarily for DMM tricks with Divine spells granted by Chameleon.

Makes sense. Maybe Chaos. I could see her going Chaos.


Chameleon is there for Persisted buff spells. These must be Divine spells according to my reading, but that is a fairly expansive list (hint: Archivist). so you won't be short of spells you can run full time, just short of Turning uses/day to run them all. Balor Nimbus is on the Cleric list, by the way. Extend your favorite Persisted buffs if you can. Chameleon also gives you options other than grappling in scenarios where grappling will be counter productive or place your character at undue risk. You have the option to cast a few Arcane spells if you need to, though you will not be benefiting from DMM. As I understand it, the Mimic Class feature can be used to grant you extra uses of Turn Undead per day, but it will not grant you a new, seperate pool.

Right, that's what I was reading too. Use grapple buffs and personal AoEs like Balor Nimbus, grab hold.


This is still a Multiple Attribute Dependant build. You'll want a fairly even spread of attributes and can't really afford to dump a stat. The only thing you'll want to focus on is Charisma and Constitution. You can rely on attribute boosting items and spells to enhance your other attributes.

I'm surprised that you say Cha and Con, and not Cha, Con and Str. After all, Str is the primary grappling stat.


Final Note. I think I forgot to include Iron Will. The other feat required for Leviathan Hunter.

Noted.


I would have preferred Chameleon 10 in order to make a grappler, but you wanted a Reaping Mauler. So, here you go. If you want a variant of this build, simply remove Reaping Mauler and Leviathan Hunter and replace them with 8 levels of Black Blood Cultist. Replace a Ranger level with Barbarian, too.

I wanted Reaping Mauler because I felt it did a lot for grappling. The OP in this thread asked for Reaping Mauler because it became the focal point of the build in the other thread. Frankly, if you have a better "puts people in submission holds and makes them suffer" class, I welcome the suggestions.

With regard to Barbarian, I originally intended to take Spirit Bear Totem Barb with Whirling Frenzy ACF to gain Improved Grab and an extra attack to trigger it each turn. Feral gives me Improved Grab, Pounce, and Rake, obviating two obvious choices for Barb ACFs (Spirit Bear and Spirit Lion). If I were to go Barb, what would you suggest instead?

Frankly, if I really wanted a BBC build, I could simply take Feral Half-Minotaur (whatever race), Whirling Frenzy Barb, Totemist and BBC, and be a shredding machine. But that wasn't the goal here. At this point, however, I'm simply dizzy. The other thread suggested RM, which seemed to do what I wanted but lost out on casting. Now I find I can get the casting back, and still be a competent grappler, but I'd lose out on flavor.

I suppose what I'm asking is, is it worth it? Ignoring Freedom of Movement and its ilk, is it worth pursuing the concept as originally conceived, at this point?

[Doc_Maynot]

I don't see the need for the Cleric Level except for the domains/devotions. Chameleon gets enough Turn Undead for persisting. At the same time, the requirements are "Race: Human or Doppelganger" with the adaptation allowing Changelings. I honestly don't think that the templates and type change should affect that qualifier.

[WinWin]

Mimic Class faeture is limited uses/day. I understood it would grant you a single Turn/Rebuke attempt, but if it actually grants you the turn pool of a Cleric and that is sufficient to run DMM:Persist, then you probably don't need Cleric. I don't know if it works like that though. It might, but I can't confirm that it does.

As for attributes, I suggested focusing on Con and Cha simply because of the number of options available to increase strength and other attributes via spells. I would not suggest dumping strength, but if after point buy at 1st level, but before racial modifiers, you only have a 12 or 14, you're not doing too badly. Once racial modifers from templates come into effect, you won't be slouching in the strength department. Once you can Persist spells like Girallons Blessing and Fuse Arms, your strength will be fairly high, though not as optimized as it could be. I don't see that as an issue.

As for Barbarian...I don't know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that I have not really played a Barbarian before, aside from a 1 level dip and a Champion of Gwynwhatever in a short campaign. I guess Wolf Totem is useful in conjunction with Feral, for the bonus Improved Trip feat. The attack penalty from being knocked prone is useful for a grappler. Combine it with Knockdown and every time you deal 10 or more damage in melee (grappling is technically melee), you provoke a trip attempt and potentially another follow-up attack.

So for a Feral character: Successful Melee attack=>Improved Grab & Knockdown. If grapple check succeeds=>Deal Damage & Knockdown. If Knockdown Succeeds=>Improved Trip bonus attack, which can trigger Improved Grab again. If Grabbed and Prone=>Use bonus Improved Trip attack to attempt a Pin.

I don't know, looks pretty solid. The only issue with Feral's Improved Grab is that it targets creatures smaller than you. If you can find something with a better version of Improved Grab, you should probably use that instead.

[Nightraiderx]

If you still want to use Reaping Mauler you could look into the Golaith from Races of stone. You still count as medium but you count as large only when it benefits you. has a bonus to str and con, penalty to dex and +1 natural armor. It is a +1 LA race so stacking it with unseelie fey may help you grapple with winter.

If you want something that grapples decently, have you looked into a psionic warrior? they have a few powers that make them larger and there's a power that gives you a bonus to grapple. you can use tashlatora on it and have the unarmed strike and flurry damage while you pin them down and beat them mercilessly.

*edit* also barbarian alt for Goliath makes you large when you are raging.

[Red Fel]

I don't see the need for the Cleric Level except for the domains/devotions. Chameleon gets enough Turn Undead for persisting. At the same time, the requirements are "Race: Human or Doppelganger" with the adaptation allowing Changelings. I honestly don't think that the templates and type change should affect that qualifier.

I figure extra TUs don't hurt, right? And it gets Knowledge Devotion plus two domains, which isn't bad either. But yeah, I think that becoming a Monstrous Humanoid won't change the base race, just type.


Mimic Class faeture is limited uses/day. I understood it would grant you a single Turn/Rebuke attempt, but if it actually grants you the turn pool of a Cleric and that is sufficient to run DMM:Persist, then you probably don't need Cleric. I don't know if it works like that though. It might, but I can't confirm that it does.

Yeah, I think it's probably better not to risk it. Besides, more TU is good when it comes to DMM Persist.


As for attributes, I suggested focusing on Con and Cha simply because of the number of options available to increase strength and other attributes via spells. I would not suggest dumping strength, but if after point buy at 1st level, but before racial modifiers, you only have a 12 or 14, you're not doing too badly. Once racial modifers from templates come into effect, you won't be slouching in the strength department. Once you can Persist spells like Girallons Blessing and Fuse Arms, your strength will be fairly high, though not as optimized as it could be. I don't see that as an issue.

Point made.


As for Barbarian...I don't know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that I have not really played a Barbarian before, aside from a 1 level dip and a Champion of Gwynwhatever in a short campaign. I guess Wolf Totem is useful in conjunction with Feral, for the bonus Improved Trip feat. The attack penalty from being knocked prone is useful for a grappler. Combine it with Knockdown and every time you deal 10 or more damage in melee (grappling is technically melee), you provoke a trip attempt and potentially another follow-up attack.

So for a Feral character: Successful Melee attack=>Improved Grab & Knockdown. If grapple check succeeds=>Deal Damage & Knockdown. If Knockdown Succeeds=>Improved Trip bonus attack, which can trigger Improved Grab again. If Grabbed and Prone=>Use bonus Improved Trip attack to attempt a Pin.

That's... Actually quite obscene, come to think of it. I could see triggering a substantial loop of multiple attacks. It's insane.


I don't know, looks pretty solid. The only issue with Feral's Improved Grab is that it targets creatures smaller than you. If you can find something with a better version of Improved Grab, you should probably use that instead.

Again, a Large size, like from Half-Minotaur or Expansion, or Jotunbrud helps with that. And as I recall, even the Spirit Bear version of Improved Grab has the "one size category smaller" disclaimer. So, yeah, the trip bonus is probably a thing that should happen.


If you still want to use Reaping Mauler you could look into the Golaith from Races of stone. You still count as medium but you count as large only when it benefits you. has a bonus to str and con, penalty to dex and +1 natural armor. It is a +1 LA race so stacking it with unseelie fey may help you grapple with winter.

Yep, I'm familiar with Powerful Build. And I do like Goliath. But that would exclude Chameleon, which is the suggestion above.

That said, a Feral Half-Minotaur Goliath working into BBC? (For the record, +3 LA.) That would be outrageous. He would be a Large, and count as a Huge for grappling purposes. If I wanted to go with BBC, that would be several kinds of insane.


If you want something that grapples decently, have you looked into a psionic warrior? they have a few powers that make them larger and there's a power that gives you a bonus to grapple. you can use tashlatora on it and have the unarmed strike and flurry damage while you pin them down and beat them mercilessly.

On the one hand, I do like PsyWar, and psionics in general. And Expansion has been discussed in this thread, and I'm sure there are other grapple-powers, just as there are grapple-spells. (I'm really crushing on Balor Nimbus, no pun intended.) The problem with using Monk as the base is that Monk is, frankly, not a great base for a grappler. Barbarian does it better. Swordsage does it better (but then, Swordsage does most things better than Monk). And as mentioned, spellcasters do it better. I recognize that Tashalatora makes Monks slightly more relevant, but it's putting a fine engine inside a craptacular car.


*edit* also barbarian alt for Goliath makes you large when you are raging.

That's a valid point, but it seems a waste to me. By its language, Mountain Rage does not stack with Powerful Build, so where Powerful Build lets you be treated as Large when it's to your advantage, Mountain Rage makes you actually Large, which isn't always an advantage. Further, taking Mountain Rage means not taking Whirling Frenzy, which grants the dodge bonus to AC (which this lightly-armored build needs) and extra attack (which can trigger Improved Grab or Improved Trip).

[Adverb]

I'd just take Goliath, myself, but I like Goliaths way too much.