Problems with DM and group in general, need advice

[primus380]

So here's my situation. I currently play in a group of about 7-8 people, we have to stories running which we rotate between after awhile, when they reach a certain level or when the current campaign gets kind of boring.


My group is, i'll say it, just terrible, in the campaign that I DM the party is: a Stonechild Crusader, a Human Rogue, a Dragonborn Fighter, a Human Cleric of Nerull, a Human Wizard, a Kitsune Swashbuckler, a Half-Orc Barbarian and a Kobold Monk (yes, that's exactly what one of the guys wanted to play). The main issue here is that, aside from the Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard, the party has basically no player synergy. the players refuse to learn the rules and they refuse to work together properly, they have murder boners and want to be the guy to get the last kill. So as DM, what do I do to attempt to fix this already tried speaking to all of them outside of the game, didn't work, and they throw pissy fits if they're characters die. so do I just quit, or do I attempt to teach them the hard way?

Second the campaign the one of the other guys DMs is just awful. The party for that consists of: a Human cavalier, a Dragonborn fighter, a Dragon (homebrew), a Dwarf barbarian, an Elf barbarian (me) and a Scorpionfolk (also homebrew) ranger (we also have a cleric, rogue, monk, and wizard courtesy of a house ruled leadership). again the complaints about this party are the same as the last, but the real issue here is the DM. the DMing style is I'll put it bluntly, retarded. First he has no sense of variety, the only two things we've fought are Goblins and ONE human, and we're level 10! Second when I try to give him advice on how to improve based on the stuff I've learned from the DMs guide his response was "well excuse me for not being a heartless bastard" how do I respond to this? then there's his "final boss" he wants to make some, indestructible, un-sunderable, immune to magic, can kill us in one hit boss. literally because two players, like he just wants to make a boss we can't beat. Not because it uses any sort of tactic or skill, just because it's there. Again how does one go about this much stupidity? then there's the fact that he REFUSES to read the books or learn ANY of the actual rules, instead he just tries to make things up. He wants to make up a feat to make enemies able to immediately dodge a charge and to be able to completely resist a sunder or a trip. Again because of TWO players, the cavalier, and me the sunder barbarian? also he built an encounter where he plans to send waves of 20 enemies, with the waves increasing in difficulty every single time, and he wants to send the waves every other round. this is his NEXT planned encounter! There's more but I want to wrap this up

In short he's a DM who doesn't understand the game, doesn't know and refuses to learn the rules. Breaks the game mechanics because of that last fact, and then still thinks he's a good DM. So how do I handle both these situations, I need advice

[torrasque666]

First group: You seem to only have two options. Kill or flee. My opinion in that respect is trial through fire. Hammer at them with things that make it so they HAVE to learn to work together and drop their muderboners. Maybe homebrew an enemy with components that make up the whole that all need to be struck down together, or within so many rounds of each other.

Second group: At that point, its not even D&D any more. And no gaming is better than bad gaming in my opinion.

[Brunks]

he REFUSES to read the books or learn ANY of the actual rules

You are not playing in his game, because there is no game without the rules.

Let me ask you this; Does the fun you have outweigh your frustrations? If not, then don't play with them.

[Captainspork]

If I am reading your post correctly, then it sounds like both games consist of the same people. And it sounds like the problem is the people.

Honestly, you may be better off finding a new group to play with.

The only other question I would ask is if others feel the same way as you, or if they all seem to be enjoying both games. To put it differently, are the problems from both games isolated to the same person (or people)? If so, maybe starting a game without them is an option.

In my experience, people don't change their attitude on things like this... you're better off trying to find a like minded group who enjoys playing the way you do than trying to change the group you have.

[Chaosvii7]

This might be a different subject, but what's the relative age group of the people you play with? Not that I haven't met a well-behaved, versed and scholarly middle schooler playing D&D(actually quite the contrary; I play with a bunch of them in Encounters every Wednesday right now), but this can be a rather large roadblock. Thankfully, it can be solved with time, but to fight it does make things problematic, and being in that situation right now would certainly make it turbulent. You really can't teach someone to not be a murderhobo; you can only not instill the murderhobo in a player by making encounters either light or tactical. Instead opt to give physicality to challenges like traps and puzzles; Don't just make them and put them in front of the party to force them to play them, give them framing and significance. If you need to, you can easily reward the party for solving a puzzle by planning a fight they'd want to be invested in on the other side of the trap.

Party cohesion is a tricky thing to work, and it's largely dependent on getting to know your teammates. If none of them have any cohesion after extended play, then I can't believe that they're getting to know each other - they're just coming to the table when you meet and interacting with only themselves. While a game group that size might not be the problem, you should look at who meshes and who doesn't and either split it up or address it with the whole group. One thing that might work without having to have "The Talk" would be to pick enemies or make ones that require synergy between two player characters who need to effectively combo abilities or focus on so that they can work together. Don't force it, of course, but if you can get players to realize that if they can combo skills and spells and abilities and feats together, it'll definitely empower them collectively by sort of making them one in the same for the purposes of that attack sequence.

As for the other game; You're simply not going to be able to change how somebody DMs unless they're willing to learn. If the DM is not willing to learn, there is no way to help the DM and make it a learning experience that betters his DMing skills. Not that it's a god complex thing, but it's hard to help shape somebody's vision to the level a DM does when you're just a player, unless you've mind melded or something. You would be better off bowing out of that game, and if you can't get your game to realize that cohesion is absolutely necessary, then it's totally fair to say you cannot game with this group because of their behavior and/or lack of interest towards the game like yours.

[Synar]

Also, 8 people might be a bit much. With so much players, roleplaying might become harder, there may be less cohesion and investment in the characters, and more chaos. (And either more fun if the athmosphere is good enough or less fun if you prefer a more "serious" D&D).

On the other hand, why is using home rules a problem? Assuming you can use anything the ennemy can and there are no Schroedinger rules, there should not be a problem.

Finally, your DM doesn't seem very good, but some of your points seem too little developped. For example, what is the problem with the waves? Is it because it would be too much arbitrary roll playing and not enough roleplaying?


P.S.:Checking if the other have fun like it is might be a good idea to know if you should try to change things, or either change your expectations or change group.

[primus380]

If I am reading your post correctly, then it sounds like both games consist of the same people. And it sounds like the problem is the people.

Honestly, you may be better off finding a new group to play with.

The only other question I would ask is if others feel the same way as you, or if they all seem to be enjoying both games. To put it differently, are the problems from both games isolated to the same person (or people)? If so, maybe starting a game without them is an option.

In my experience, people don't change their attitude on things like this... you're better off trying to find a like minded group who enjoys playing the way you do than trying to change the group you have.

A few of the other members feel the same way as me, we try to keep playing to be nice to them but it's starting to become more of a frustration then anything. i'm asking if there's anything i should try to fix the issue these people have or just flat out quit

[primus380]

Also, 8 people might be a bit much. With so much players, roleplaying might become harder, there may be less cohesion and investment in the characters, and more chaos. (And either more fun if the athmosphere is good enough or less fun if you prefer a more "serious" D&D).

On the other hand, why is using home rules a problem? Assuming you can use anything the ennemy can and there are no Schroedinger rules, there should not be a problem.

Finally, your DM doesn't seem very good, but some of your points seem too little developped. For example, what is the problem with the waves? Is it because it would be too much arbitrary roll playing and not enough roleplaying?


P.S.:Checking if the other have fun like it is might be a good idea to know if you should try to change things, or either change your expectations or change group.

sorry i was frustrated when i typed this out, the waves were fine in theory but his execution was more my complaint, he wants to send these waves at us to the point where we're overwhelmed. also he says that he plans for us to become fatigued after 10 waves and basically he built the entire encounter unbalanced and refuses to actually try and balance it, among other things

[Madwand99]

Second game: Drop it. It sounds awful, just don't play.

First game: You have too many players. They are having a tough time getting attention and "camera-time", and this combined with a generally immature attitide has led to juvenile attention-grabbing behavior. Solution: You can either kick out players you don't like, or split the game in half. At most, you want only 4 players at a table before you will consider adding any more. This low number of PCs will force them to work together (and you can pick your favorite players, which will help). If you decide to split your table, put the 4 worst players into a simple arena-style game that suits their desires for constant murder. They'll have fun with it and it's no effort for you to run.

[Mellack]

Perhaps he wants you to do something other than stand and fight directly? Having an unwinnable direct encounter is fine once in a while. Perhaps you should retreat, or find a way of stopping the waves.

[Andezzar]

A few of the other members feel the same way as me, we try to keep playing to be nice to them but it's starting to become more of a frustration then anything. i'm asking if there's anything i should try to fix the issue these people have or just flat out quitTake the people that feel the same as you and make a new group, leave the old groups. 8 people is just to much, especially if some have a completely different idea of a fun game. As a DM and as a player I find 4 players plus DM is optimal, 5 still works, but anything above that starts to break down. This may only become apparent later, but finding a date with more people is also more difficult than with fewer.

[primus380]

Perhaps he wants you to do something other than stand and fight directly? Having an unwinnable direct encounter is fine once in a while. Perhaps you should retreat, or find a way of stopping the waves.

as stated before the DM has no idea what he's doing, his intentions are to have us stand and fight every single wave