Rogue Fix Idea [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys, so an idea just popped into my mind for a rogue ability, so I decided to pop it onto the playground to put pen to paper (or thought to internet or something) so I could get advice while writing it down so here it is:

At second level you chose a style, ranged or melee. At second, sixth, tenth, fourteenth and eighteenth level, you chose an ability from below that complements the style you chose, from an ever increasing list. Each ability may be taken only once.

At second level:
If you chose ranged: The sneak attack range for ranged attacks is increased by 30ft or sneak attacks delivered by a ranged weapon reduce the targets ac by the number of damage dealt from the sneak attack dice until your next turn.

If you chose melee: If you successfully sneak attack a target with a melee attack, they become flat footed and provoke an attack of opportunity from you, or: If your melee attack roll exceeded the targets ac by 5 or more, they are treated as flat footed for the purposes of determining sneak attack.

At sixth level:
If you chose ranged at level 2 you add to the list of available abilities: increase the sneak attack range for ranged attacks by 30ft, and targets hit by ranged sneak attacks have their movement speed reduced by 1d4x5 for one round.

If you chose melee at level 2 you add to the list of available abilities: Your melee sneak attacks add your rogue level to sneak attack damage or your base attack bonus progression becomes that of a fighter.

At tenth level:
If you chose ranged at level 2 you add to the list of available abilities: Increase the sneak attack range for ranged attacks by 30ft and ranged sneak attacks deal +1d6+int modifier dexterity damage.

If you chose melee at level 2 you add to the list of available abilities: Your melee sneak attacks deal +1d6+int modifier str damage and whenever you make a sneak attack, you may initiate a grapple, disarm, trip or bullrush as a free action, opponents may not "win" the opposed checks, however if their str/dexterity check beats yours, the maneuver fails.

At 14th level:
If you chose ranged at level 2, you add to the list of available abilities: Your ranged sneak attacks cause the target to take 1d3 constitution damage, and targets damaged by your ranged sneak attacks must succeed a fortitude save (dc rogue level+int modifier) or either become blinded or deafened (rogues choice) for 1 round.

If you chose melee at level 2 you add to the list of available abilities: Targets damaged by your melee sneak attacks take the hit point damage dealt by your sneak attack dice again every 1d6 rounds (actual round as opposed to your next turn) for 1d3 rounds and your melee sneak attacks do +1d6 con damage.

At 18th level:
If you chose ranged at level 2 you add to the list of available abilities: Opponents damaged by your ranged sneak attacks must succeed a fortitude save (dc hit point damage from the attack) or be knocked prone, or take 2d6 con damage, or take a -20 penalty to all saves and attack rolls (rogues choice), and your ranged sneak attacks cause opponents to be stunned for one round

If you chose ranged at level 2, you add to the list of available abilities: Opponents damaged by your melee sneak attacks must succeed a fortitude save (dc hit point damage from the attack) or be stunned for 1 round, or take 8 con damage, or become staggered for 1d4 rounds (rogues choice) and opponents damaged by your melee sneak attacks must suceed a dc 20+your int modifier+your dex modifier fortitude save or be instantly slain, suceeding this save still causes the subject to take 2d6 constitution damage.

What do you guys think, I really just threw it together, but I'd love your opinion. I'm also trying to come up with more out of combat utility as well, thanks, and as always, go nuts.

[Synar]

You said you choose from a list of ability, but how many ability do you get in total and how many can you use at once? Do you choose the ability each attack? Do you swap your ability known when you level up? I don't really understand your exact system.


(Yes, this is poor feedback, but others on this playground are more knowledgeable about rogues, and I don't understand your system, so I can't really comment.)

[Teapot Salty]

You said you choose from a list of ability, but how many ability do you get in total and how many can you use at once? Do you choose the ability each attack? Do you swap your ability known when you level up? I don't really understand your exact system.


(Yes, this is poor feedback, but others on this playground are more knowledgeable about rogues, and I don't understand your system, so I can't really comment.)

In essence you chose a new ability at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th level. When you can chose a new ability, new abilities are added to the list of abilities to chose from. All abilities apply always.

[jqavins]

What's the problem you're trying to solve? How does this new set of abilities address the problem? Is it simply "Rogues aren't awesome enough?"

[Teapot Salty]

What's the problem you're trying to solve? How does this new set of abilities address the problem? Is it simply "Rogues aren't awesome enough?"

I should have mentioned that. I am working on some other stuff, but in general, I find sneak attack very underwhelming: Yay!! I get to do a bonus, at best 60 damage on attacks occasionally. And I like the idea of gimping awesomely while doing that bonus damage. Although, to help me with the other stuff, can I ask you, what do you think needs to fixed on rogue?

[jqavins]

Although, to help me with the other stuff, can I ask you, what do you think needs to fixed on rogue?
First, I have to confess that since about the time 3rd Ed cane out I haven't played a tenth as much as I'd like to, so I can't call myself an expert. But I'm not aware of anything that really cries out to be fixed. The extra sneak attack damage is nice; maybe not awesome, but if one wants to deal awesome damage then one should play fighters. I'm not saying don't do this, just that it fixes a problem that I myself don't see. (And see the first sentence regarding what I do or don't see.)

[toapat]

I should have mentioned that. I am working on some other stuff, but in general, I find sneak attack very underwhelming: Yay!! I get to do a bonus, at best 60 damage on attacks occasionally. And I like the idea of gimping awesomely while doing that bonus damage. Although, to help me with the other stuff, can I ask you, what do you think needs to fixed on rogue?

Find the Ranger ACF distracting attack, give this to them at level 8, Delay Imp Uncanny dodge to lvl 9

Find the Rogue ACF Penetrating Strike. Give this to Rogues at level 3

The entire point of Sneak attack is its a massive source of damage independent of sacrificing Attack bonus. these ACFs allow rogues to do their job in combat without magical assistence or insanely complex and somewhat ineffectual mechanics.

Charging gets you a potential colossal nuke in 1-2 attacks, Sneak attack gets you a carpet bombing.

[Seharvepernfan]

When it comes to fixing classes, spells are usually the answer. Not always, but often enough.

Two problems that rogues face can be fixed with a 2-level dip of shadowdancer: sneak attacking someone in the dark and hiding without cover (near shadows). You might just give these to rogues at some point. If you give rogues some spell progression; say, the assassins spell list at a paladin or ranger's progression, that fixes some of the problems as well. I mean, sure, they can use UMD to get some spell access, but that's never quite enough, is it?

Damage is not a rogue's problem, they can deal plenty. A rogue deals enough damage by making several attacks (typically with TWF), not by dealing tons of damage with one hit. The problem is when and to who they deal that damage; the enemy has to be vulnerable to sneak attacks. Some of the problem can be fixed with seeing in the dark or being invisible. However, sneak-attack immune creatures still cause problems for a rogue.

Undead are the biggest offenders, but a cleric or paladin in the party can help mitigate that since they stomp undead (and undead are particularly weak against arrows of slaying); they also don't have much hp, so simply plinking at them with arrows is not as bad a tactic as with living enemies. Constructs are generally easy to avoid, and also don't have much hp. Plants are weak to druids and certain clerics, and are typically unintelligent like constructs. Oozes...well, just avoid them. I don't have any advice against elementals.

Splat books offer ways to get sneak attack at range and against typically immune enemies (I personally find them cheesy).

[Kree West]

These seem quite powerful if they are in addition to all of the rouge's other features. Also, rouge isn't made to be a warrior. It gets a lot of damage avoidance, stealth, and dealing with traps. It also has a ton of skills so its not made for combat.

Beyond the first range increase it is not going to help much in a dungeon. If you want to keep it scale it more to balance it. The 2nd level abilities for melee are underwhelming compared to the ranged ones. The 6th level melee are quite strong though. You can get a Rouge to have full BAB and 8+Int skills. Adding level to sneak attack is fine I think. 10th level ranged again +30ft. is useless and the dexterity damage is really good. With maxed Int. you can slay dragons. Melee strength damage kills martials. Going with 18 Int. that's average 7 strength damage. That drops a martial to 13 or +1 at the least. Then his reduced damage and attack makes him not much of a threat. The disarm/grapple/bull rush/trip one is not good in that 3are strength based. The only one that works with Rouge is disarm and that is not powerful. 14th level ranged is basically 2 Con damage against save or suck. If its not doing the standard 10+rouge lvl+int. its fine and just kills classes that don't have good fort. If it uses the STANDARD 10+level+Int. Then its over. 28 DC or be blinded. Not even a 20th level fighter can average avoiding it. The first melee one at 14th is insane. It effectively deals on average x3 or x4 sneak attack damage over time. That's 21d6 or 28d6 on average. Equal to 70 or 98 damage from just sneak attack. That nearly kills a fighter of equal level in one attack. It may be over time but that is just insane. I realized I misread and rewriting is a pain on these forums. Still its x3 damage over time. This half healths a fighter in 7 rounds. Just from one sneak attack. If the Con damage stacks from before then that's 1d3+1d6 Con damage. This is okay. 18th level the first ranged is good. Fort save or -20 on saves and attack. And the DC is based off of sneak attack damage so DC 31 + all of the other damage from magical weapons and whatnot. This is overwhelming compared to the other. The DC needs to be reduced and -20 to SAVES means they will die from the wizard. The instant kill melee should be DC 10+Rouge level+Int. Mod.

Overall more saves and the save or dies need a per day limit. You need to make sure that the options are equal at any one level. Stacking all of these makes a sneak attack a death. You should only be able to activate one at a time. As a rouge fix this makes it that the rouge in addition to everything kills on a sneak attack. Although, a monster that is immune to sneak attacks (undead, plants, constructs, immunity to crits) makes the rouge useless. There are a ton of ways to get a lot of sneak attacks. Scaling is a bit of an issue. The penalties should have durations listed.

The GG Strike
2nd: Melee, If attack roll is 5 over AC treat as flat footed
6th: Melee, Fighter BAB
10th: Melee, 1d6 + Int mod Str damage
14th: Melee, Sneak Attack damage every 1d6 rounds 1d3 times
18th: Melee, DC 20 + Int mod + Dex mod for die, dodge 2d6 Con damage

All Core + this homebrew
20th level Rouge
Feats
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Improved Critical Rapier
Improved Critical Kukri
Weapon Focus Rapier
Martial Weapon Prof. Kukri
Weapon Focus Kukri

Stats
22 Int (+6)
19 Dex (+4)
Sneak Attack
+10 brilliant energy rapier
+32 to attack ignore armor 15-20 crit
11d6 + (1d6 + 6 Str) + DC 30 Fort. save or die + 2d6 Con
3 rounds later 10d6
4 rounds later 10d6

+10 brilliant energy kukri
+32 to attack ignore armor 15-20 crit
1d4 + 10d6 + (1d6 + 6 Str) + DC 30 Fort. save or die + 2d6 Con
3 rounds later 10d6
4 rounds later 10d6
Total: 216 damage, 19 Str, 14 Con, DC 30 Fort twice (Good fort. 19-20 saves. Need +25 fort. for 1/2 survival), Can sneak attack on average if enemy AC is equal or less than 37. Up to very old gold dragon (CR 22).