Mirror of Opposition + Dominate = Improved Simulacrum?

[Someonelse]

I had a wicked idea, I'm actually hesitant to do it because I only want to challenge my players, not plan a TPK.

So, BBEG is rich and powerful and has lots of relatively powerful minions. He gets a Mirror of Opposition, has his best minions at the ready with tactics specifically planned for subduing the copy. Then BBEG looks in the mirror and makes a good aligned double. His minions subdue the double and BBEG casts Mind Rape and/or Morality Undone on him until the good double becomes evil.

Is there a reason this won't work? The only drawback I can consider is that since the copy was from a mirror of opposition it will always oppose BBEG unless he uses some form of mind control magic on him. My particular BBEG is immune to mind affecting effects, so this would be a problem, but in theory I think this could be another one of those game breaking strategies.

What do you think? If this works it would be like a simulacrum but better.

[Gildedragon]

Problem: "Upon the defeat... of the duplicate or the original, the duplicate and her items disappear" dominate defeats duplicate. Duplicate goes poof.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Mirror of Opposition doesn't make an opposite aligned double, it makes an exact copy.

BBEG looks at mirror, makes a duplicate that's an exact copy of him, including his current capabilities and even motivations and memories. It knows what he intends for it, so it immediately grabs him or uses one of his abilities to make his lackeys lose track of which is the real him. If he has a high Bluff skill, it could simply point at him and declare, "There's the duplicate! Subdue it quickly!" and the lackeys would believe that the mirror's effect swapped their positions (which it may do anyway). That could go very badly for the BBEG, and it's not likely something that he would be willing to risk.

[Gildedragon]

A good test is to see who can cast the [Exalted] spell "I don't have a goatee" that removes any existing beard
As only good characters can cast the spell it is sure to reveal the evil copy

Or ya know, truss up any one of them. As soon as one is defeated the copy disappears

[Fitz10019]

Problem: "Upon the defeat... of the duplicate or the original, the duplicate and her items disappear" dominate defeats duplicate. Duplicate goes poof.

So they play tic-tac-toe -- problem solved.

[mabriss lethe]

Diplomacy might work on the double. It would be best done with at least a dip in Binder to get Naberius' Silver Tongue ability.

[Ravens_cry]

A good test is to see who can cast the [Exalted] spell "I don't have a goatee" that removes any existing beard
As only good characters can cast the spell it is sure to reveal the evil copy

Or ya know, truss up any one of them. As soon as one is defeated the copy disappears
Ah, but they might cast the very similar yet entirely different [Vile] spell 'To Hell With My Goatee!' that burns away any goatee in a burst of heckfire, and so is Entirely Evil and Not At All a spell any good aligned spell caster would use.

[ace rooster]

A Mirror of Opposition doesn't make an opposite aligned double, it makes an exact copy.

BBEG looks at mirror, makes a duplicate that's an exact copy of him, including his current capabilities and even motivations and memories. It knows what he intends for it, so it immediately grabs him or uses one of his abilities to make his lackeys lose track of which is the real him. If he has a high Bluff skill, it could simply point at him and declare, "There's the duplicate! Subdue it quickly!" and the lackeys would believe that the mirror's effect swapped their positions (which it may do anyway). That could go very badly for the BBEG, and it's not likely something that he would be willing to risk.

The exact copy thing works both ways. If the original designs a trap he himself cannot escape, then the copy also cannot escape. simple. The copy is increadably predictable, both in capacity and tactics.

The big down side is in letting minions see a scenario that is designed to be impossible for the BB to escape, or leaving such a trap around (maybe not a down side. Could be important for finding weaknesses, and a good plot point).

Provided there is some way of controling the copies (firstly capturing them, and then finding a way of making them do what you want), I don't see a problem with this. It implies weaknesses for it to work, so it is not even OP.

[Gildedragon]

Charming them into friendliness (by magic or argentine tongue-crobatics) or subduing/capturing them counts as defeat though (PCs would expect to get XP for this, and that is a good measure of when enemies are defeated)

As to THWMGoat yeah, which is why you should never take invisible spell (the only reason). The bout of hellfire is pretty distinctive

[ace rooster]

Actually, a safer use involves slight of hand, blind/deafness, and a minion. You give the minion a pile of limited use magic items (or any items you want temporary duplicates of), and have him look at the mirror. You blind and deafen the duplicate, and command the minion to avoid it (In a labrinth for flavor), so there is still a minute chance for the duplicate to find and kill the original (hence is never defeated). You now slight of hand the new items, and use them to your hearts content (keeping the originals in a sealed vault). If the copies ever get stolen, then you can kill the blind mirror duplicate and make them disappear.

A bit safer than directly trying to use the duplicates, where the control is difficult to make robust (and really not failsafe for powerful creatures).

[Ravens_cry]

Charming them into friendliness (by magic or argentine tongue-crobatics) or subduing/capturing them counts as defeat though (PCs would expect to get XP for this, and that is a good measure of when enemies are defeated)

As to THWMGoat yeah, which is why you should never take invisible spell (the only reason). The bout of hellfire is pretty distinctive

Not hellfire, heckfire, which is entirely invisible and originates from the Nine Hecks.

[Nettlekid]

A month or two ago there was a thread about the Plane of Mirrors, and although I don't think we ever quite figured it out I think it bears thinking about in this situation. The Plane of Mirrors immediately creates an opposite-aligned version of you that seeks you out and tries to kill you, and by doing so it may leave the Plane. If you kill it, no more mirror clones will spawn.

What I was trying to figure out how to do was use Mirror of Opposition to make a copy of yourself which is your alignment but wants to kill you, and then send that to the Plane of Mirrors to make a copy that is opposite to your alignment and wants to destroy the MoO copy. If you let it do that, and then use the MoO on the plane copy, and then send THAT copy into the Plane, and let it's plane copy kill it, do you end up with a copy of yourself with your alignment? I'm not sure how to do it without some MoO copies vanishing upon victory/defeat.

[Fitz10019]

So they play tic-tac-toe -- problem solved.

Seriously? No one is addressing the battle-to-a-tie scenario?

[Gildedragon]

Seriously? No one is addressing the battle-to-a-tie scenario?

well constantly tieing is the only way to keep the simulacrum indefinitely. As soon as one loses or concedes they are defeated, and thus poof goes the copy.
Risk might be a better option, or monopoly, provided all their spell slots are devoted to the cheat spell.

[Ravens_cry]

well constantly tieing is the only way to keep the simulacrum indefinitely. As soon as one loses or concedes they are defeated, and thus poof goes the copy.
Risk might be a better option, or monopoly, provided all their spell slots are devoted to the cheat spell.
Make sure you have some minions to play with you. Two player Monopoly tends to go fairly quickly.

[Nettlekid]

Seriously? No one is addressing the battle-to-a-tie scenario?

Because the mirror duplicate wants to DESTROY you, and so it knows that tic-tac-toe won't do that, but Disintegrate will. Your mirror duplicate isn't about to play tic-tac-toe with you. Similarly, it's not going to fight in any way that it would lose. I think it would try to retreat at first to rob you of your preparation advantage, and then attack later.