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marjan
2007-02-16, 06:09 PM
I was wondering if you want to cast spell using miracle which is affected by a metamagic feat, how would you do it. Would you have to apply metamagic feat to miracle or you could just cast spell whose modified level doesn't exceed limits given in the description of the miracle.

Hyfigh
2007-02-16, 06:34 PM
The way I run it is your second suggestion. So long as the spell does not exceed the maximum level allowed for the miracle, the miracle can mimic it.

Tor the Fallen
2007-02-16, 06:40 PM
You need to be an epic spellcaster to cast past ninth level.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-16, 06:43 PM
You need to be an epic spellcaster to cast past ninth level.

Unless you're a specific breed of Killer Gnome shadowcaster.

oriong
2007-02-16, 06:44 PM
The second option could work within certain limits: for example, anything that would change how miracle is actually cast (such as silent spell) would have to be applied to miracle itself.

Legally speaking only the first option is valid.

Jack Mann
2007-02-16, 06:48 PM
If you've an incantatrix buddy, he might be able to help you, pre-epic.

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 06:49 PM
I don't see how the first version is legal at all. The second version sounds far more legal to me reading within the spirit of the rules.

oriong
2007-02-16, 06:55 PM
I don't see how the first version is legal at all. The second version sounds far more legal to me reading within the spirit of the rules.

What?

The first version is the way spells and metamagic work: you cast a spell, modifying it with a metamagic feat (or item) and the spell's effects are modified accordingly. The effects of a miracle spell are those of a spell miracle emulates, thus meaning that metamagicing miracle will have the metamagic effect on the emulated spell.

marjan
2007-02-16, 06:57 PM
You need to be an epic spellcaster to cast past ninth level.

You don't have to if you have sudden metamagic feats, or metamagic rod.

I meant you can modify them through metamagic without being able to cast spells past lvl9

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 07:02 PM
What?

The first version is the way spells and metamagic work: you cast a spell, modifying it with a metamagic feat (or item) and the spell's effects are modified accordingly. The effects of a miracle spell are those of a spell miracle emulates, thus meaning that metamagicing miracle will have the metamagic effect on the emulated spell.

The way that I was looking at it was that the effect of miracle was "Generate another spell". That's a single effect with no random variables on the effect it's self as you are generating -one- specific spell.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-16, 07:13 PM
Plus there's Divine Metacheese.

Arceliar
2007-02-16, 07:42 PM
Without going Incantrix or Dweomerkeeper or getting Arcane Thesis or using Divine or Incarnum loopholes, or sudden metamagic feats, you're probably out of luck.

Some DM's might allow certain metamagic feats to work, such as empower spell or maximize spell so long as the spell miracle is emulating is still under the level limit. But technically I don't believe they're supposed to.

okpokalypse
2007-02-16, 07:46 PM
I assume you mean the no XP cost Miracle...

From the PhB, p 254 (Miracle)

"A miracle can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.

Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.


Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost."

I draw your attention to "Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower" and "Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects." By that I would assume it could duplicate a Maximized Fireball, simply because, per the PhB, "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell." Thus, it satisfies the 2nd of 4 Criteria, and the last of the 4 Criteria - power level is in line with the above effects - is directly supported via the spell normally taking up a slot 3 levels higher - hence, a 6th level spell slot. This is easily in line with the above requirements.

I see no reason why a MetaMagic Rod, or Divine Meta-Magic would be needed to simulate the effects of a 3rd level spell powered to a 6th level spell slot. Logically it wouldn't even make sense.

The Miracle Spell brings about the effects of another spell (through divine intervention). If one were to maximize the Miracle through whatever means, it would have no effect since the Miracle isn't doing the damage. The Miracle is effectively calling on your deity to do something for you. The secondary effects shouldn't be subject to a maximize any more than the Max HP of a Summoned Creature should be affected by Maximizing a Summon Monster.

The only meta-magic that I think applies to Miracle are Silent Spell and Still Spell.

oriong
2007-02-16, 09:00 PM
The effects of a miracle spell are the effects of a spell it duplicates. That's the way it works and that's what 'duplicate' means. It doesn't say 'miracle brings into being a spell of X level' it says 'miracle duplicates a spell of X level' meaning that the effects of the miracle spell are identical to the effects of the spell duplicated.

If you need further evidence look at stuff like the target/area/effect/range/etc. they all refer to the text below. Miracle's effects are those of the spell it creates.

EDIT: However, I think your point about 'producing an effect of power level in line with the above' is a valid one and does make it sound like producing a metamagiced version of a spell would not be unnaceptable, but it should still be possible to apply a metamagic feat to miracle itself.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-16, 09:04 PM
Without going Incantrix or Dweomerkeeper or getting Arcane Thesis or using Divine or Incarnum loopholes, or sudden metamagic feats, you're probably out of luck.

Some DM's might allow certain metamagic feats to work, such as empower spell or maximize spell so long as the spell miracle is emulating is still under the level limit. But technically I don't believe they're supposed to.

"Incarnum loopholes?"

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-16, 09:17 PM
"Incarnum loopholes?"

I want Incarnum loopholes. :smallfrown: Incarnum is cool and all, but from a powergamer's point of view, it's not really that good.

Gralamin
2007-02-16, 09:29 PM
"Incarnum loopholes?"

I understand the both of the words but they just don't look right together like that.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-17, 12:44 AM
I think he means Midnight Metamagic.

Torger
2007-02-17, 01:00 AM
The effects of a miracle spell are the effects of a spell it duplicates. That's the way it works and that's what 'duplicate' means. It doesn't say 'miracle brings into being a spell of X level' it says 'miracle duplicates a spell of X level' meaning that the effects of the miracle spell are identical to the effects of the spell duplicated.

If you need further evidence look at stuff like the target/area/effect/range/etc. they all refer to the text below. Miracle's effects are those of the spell it creates.

EDIT: However, I think your point about 'producing an effect of power level in line with the above' is a valid one and does make it sound like producing a metamagiced version of a spell would not be unnaceptable, but it should still be possible to apply a metamagic feat to miracle itself.

Besides that, what deity worth his salt would not let his 17th+ level priest not cast a paltry maximized fireball when he could be gating in celestial minions to finge for his cause?

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-17, 05:06 AM
Besides that, what deity worth his salt would not let his 17th+ level priest not cast a paltry maximized fireball when he could be gating in celestial minions to finge for his cause?

A water deity.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-17, 06:07 AM
Besides that, what deity worth his salt...


A water deity.

A saltwater deity to be specific...

InaVegt
2007-02-17, 06:10 AM
A saltwater deity to be specific...
[roll0]

Anyway, as a DM I would rule a metamagicked spell under the similar power effect clause.

martyboy74
2007-02-17, 01:14 PM
Technically

martyboy74
2007-02-17, 01:16 PM
You could also quicken a miracle itself.

Ooh! Persistant Miracle! The illegal cheese!