Thunderstones and surprise rounds.

[MonkeySage]

I had arranged for a bunch of enemies to ambush the party as soon as they opened the door in this dungeon... the rogue looked under the door using a mirror, opened it, and tossed a thunderstone among them. Most of them were deafened... I still asked them to roll initiative, and two of my players(the one who threw the thunderstone, and one other) are up in arms about it. They're pissed. One of the players is new to the entire d20 system, the other is, like me, just learning pathfinder. I'm the only one in this group who has gmed 3.5-pathfinder... but I've never had to deal with this situation before and so do not understand how to handle it. The books aren't very helpful.

Thunderstone tosser: dm'd and played ad&d 2e(and nothing else), 20 years experience. Played pathfinder for 2 months, still looks at it through the lens of 2e.
Other player: dm'd and played 4e, for over a year. Played 3.5 for 3 months, and pathfinder for 2 months.

I was going to let the enemies who weren't deafened get a turn, in order by initiative.

I should note that the 2e player also has a very "guide, not rulebook" attitude, and strongly believes in tossing the rules to the wind whenever they do not suit his own purposes, as a gm or as a player.

Because of both players, we still haven't come to a consensus on whether a staff counts as two weapons, and should be treated the same way. Whenever I try to come up with a ruling, these two start fighting.

[torrasque666]

If there were any that weren't deafened, then the PCs just alerted the enemy to their presence, thus negating a surprise round. As for rolling initiative, they'd still have to, regardless of whether there was a surprise round, as they have to determine amongst themselves​ who goes first.

[Yanisa]

The rules for surprise rounds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Surprise) are very clear in this case.


Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
I am pretty sure they were aware of the PCs before the rogue tossed the thunderstone, and I am 200% sure they were aware of the PCs after the thunderstone went off.

Rules aside, I do see merit for a "confusion" round. They were ready for PC storming in, the tossing of the stone caught them by surprise and especially the deaf ones would have no clue what just happened. Imagine standing ready for a strike, suddenly a flash, and you don't hear anything anymore. But that is rule zero, and not RAW.




P.S. An quarterstaff is a double weapon, which is basically two weapons tied together for the rules, so they are kinda treated as two weapons for a lot of things (Like enchantment). Unless you mean spell staves, in which case those are improvised weapons, unless the DM rules that they function like quarterstaves.

[Hamste]

Like they said quarter staffs are double weapons. Meaning you can fight them two weapon style or single weapon fighting style (in which case you choose which head you are attacking with). Each head has to be enchanted at full price just like two weapons and each head can be made of different materials. They do not need to use the two weapon option.

Anyways I would rule throwing the thunderstone was their surprise round. They took a standard action and the enemy became aware of them right before it happened so it makes sense.

[MonkeySage]

I would think so too... 2e player keeps arguing against that point... according to him:

This half orc treats the double axe as a martial weapon, why does he need two weapon fighting to use it effectively?

I kept telling him, if he is using both sides, it counts as two weapons, and comes with all the penalties of two weapon fighting. He doesn't seem to understand, because "it's one weapon".

[Yanisa]

I would think so too... 2e player keeps arguing against that point... according to him:

This half orc treats the double axe as a martial weapon, why does he need two weapon fighting to use it effectively?

I kept telling him, if he is using both sides, it counts as two weapons, and comes with all the penalties of two weapon fighting. He doesn't seem to understand, because "it's one weapon".

I often argue with one of my players, I know that feeling.

Besides that, the rules on doubles weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#wpn-quality-double) are also clear. It is in the core rule book.


Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

[torrasque666]

Your 2e player is, as you said, stuck in 2e. Tell him to learn the new rules, or leave the table if he's not going to follow the new rules.

[Slipperychicken]

If there were any that weren't deafened, then the PCs just alerted the enemy to their presence, thus negating a surprise round. As for rolling initiative, they'd still have to, regardless of whether there was a surprise round, as they have to determine amongst themselves​ who goes first.

I'd say that the surprise round was already spent deploying the flashbang thunderstone. If it was a proper flashbang, it might have had the desired effect (rendering the enemy unable to respond), but a deaf character can still see the PCs entering the room to stab people, and they are very much aware that they have been deafened by a loud noise.

Personally, I'd have gone with a Fungal Stun Vial (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Fungal-Stun-Vial) (PF) or a sunstone (3.5).

[Undertucker]

I agree, it sounds like they had their surprise round.

The way I see it is as follow:

Rogue detects enemies on other side of door, and quietly alerts his party members. The party is aware while the enemies are not, granting them a surprise round.
Initiative is rolled for all involved.
With some of their standard actions for having the surprise round, the group opens the door and throws in the thunderstone.
If the enemies on the other side have readied actions that are triggered by the door opening (because they knew someone was coming, were told to do so, etc) then these should happen immediately after that action, before the stone is thrown.
After the party has their surprise round actions in initiative order, the deafened enemies recieve a -4 penalty on their initiative which may change the action order.
Combat ensues...


That's how I'd run the situation anyway. Of course, if the enemies in the room have a means to see/detect through the door and are thus aware of the approaching party they are not surprised.


As for the argument about double weapons, your player is wrong by RAW. He probably doesn't like the idea of spending so many feats to make TWF useful since it is so feat heavy, but this doesn't make him any less wrong.

Your 2e player is, as you said, stuck in 2e. Tell him to learn the new rules, or leave the table if he's not going to follow the new rules.
If you don't want to follow his example of throwing the rules to the wind you may need to lay down the law. You are the DM and it's your choice if your game goes by the book or not.

[Spore]

P.S. An quarterstaff is a double weapon, which is basically two weapons tied together for the rules, so they are kinda treated as two weapons for a lot of things (Like enchantment). Unless you mean spell staves, in which case those are improvised weapons, unless the DM rules that they function like quarterstaves.

You can always use a quarterstaff as a twohanded weapon. I would NOT accept improvised weapon penalty for wielding a big stick like a club.

[Yanisa]

You can always use a quarterstaff as a twohanded weapon. I would NOT accept improvised weapon penalty for wielding a big stick like a club.

Yet Staves (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves) are not any form of weapon, unlike Quarterstaves or Clubs. :smalltongue:

[Spore]

Yet Staves (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves) are not any form of weapon, unlike Quarterstaves or Clubs. :smalltongue:

I know. I wanted to talk about the quarterstaff "only being able to be a dual weapon" which I disapprove of. Staves being improvised weapons I am fine with (but I am sure there are some staves that count as regular weapons - as well as the staff magus).