Why is time stands still consideredl so good? [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So, why is time stands still considered so good? Yay, two full attacks, cool, but not "OMG take this all the time" good. Thanks, and as always, go nuts.

[Aegis013]

Do you have a better general use melee option?

[Teapot Salty]

Do you have a better general use melee option?

Breaking the action economy with other maneuvers comes to mind.

Never mind, I suppose that's true, but most handbooks always seem to rate it as a godsend, like, this is the crux of the every build sort of thing. (I'm exaggerating a little but still)

[Aegis013]

I assume you're referring to White Raven Tactics, which is a swift. So let me rephrase.

Do you have a better general use full attack melee option?

[Teapot Salty]

I assume you're referring to White Raven Tactics, which is a swift. So let me rephrase.

Do you have a better general use full attack melee option?

Why full attack when you can move and pop down 100 damage?

I'm not denying that it's good (especially with warblades and critfishing shenanigans) but it's still hailed as great for swordsage, and not moving and being squishy is just asking for trouble.

[Aegis013]

Strike of Perfect Clarity is pretty good. But let's say you opened with that against the enemy, or you're already standing in melee.

Do you have a better option assuming your goal is to win by HP damage?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't really care for any of the 9th level maneuvers apart from the one from devoted spirit.

A Swordsage with Shadow Pounce could Shadow Jaunt, full attack, Shadow Stride, full attack, Shadow Blink, full attack, then on the following round use Adaptive Style to recover them. A Warblade with Time Stands Still can full attack twice with that, then full attack the next round and recover it. Both can make three full attacks every two rounds, but one only needs 7th level maneuvers and doesn't need to begin adjacent to their target. Plus his maneuvers are useful in noncombat situations.

[Urpriest]

Why full attack when you can move and pop down 100 damage?

I'm not denying that it's good (especially with warblades and critfishing shenanigans) but it's still hailed as great for swordsage, and not moving and being squishy is just asking for trouble.

If you're making five attacks on a typical full attack, then ten attacks from time stands still will beat out one attack with 100 bonus damage if you deal at least 12 damage per attack, which is pretty easy to do. And by that level, you've got swift action movement anyway.

[cosmonuts]

I never tried this, but I think it works. Souldrinker (BoVD) enchant on a weapon + time stands still. Drop -10 negative levels on your enemy.

[Darrin]

The crux of the maneuver is this:

You get to roll lots of dice. Twice as many as you normally would for a full attack.

That is the entire reason TSS is cool. As gamers the whole dice = dopamine thing is just wired into our heads. Everything we have ever done that turned out to be fantastically awesome started with rolling dice. So if we roll more dice, then obviously the better odds that something awesome is going to happen. Even just the expectation of that potential awesomeness is enough to give us a little hit to our pleasure centers, even if we wind up botching or crapping out or shooting our own arrow into the back of our skull.

[torrasque666]

The crux of the maneuver is this:

You get to roll lots of dice. Twice as many as you normally would for a full attack.

That is the entire reason TSS is cool. As gamers the whole dice = dopamine thing is just wired into our heads. Everything we have ever done that turned out to be fantastically awesome started with rolling dice. So if we roll more dice, then obviously the better odds that something awesome is going to happen. Even just the expectation of that potential awesomeness is enough to give us a little hit to our pleasure centers, even if we wind up botching or crapping out or shooting our own arrow into the back of our skull.

Hence why I love my Gargantuan Warforged with so many components it makes your head spin and due to feats has 7 natural attacks per round. I almost crash roll20 on occasion because when I roll, I roll both to hit and for damage so its somewhere around throwing... 3*7...+7... 28 dice per full attack. I love it.

[Necroticplague]

Because you can get a fair amount of per-attack effects. So having more attacks can trigger these more. A subset of per-attacking is the critfisher, of whom this is a godsend.

[Eldariel]

Why full attack when you can move and pop down 100 damage?

It's great with bows, something most of the book fails with. Other than that, well, 100 damage is nothing compared to full attack (level 20 equipped character with 20 BAB and maxed offense stat can be doing 300+ without really investing at all into it) and if you have a chance to take full attack, you should be able to eviscerate almost anything with Time Stands Still. But yeah, it's still just extra damage. It's one of the better ways to get extra damage tho, far as maneuvers go.

[Gemini476]

If you're making five attacks on a typical full attack, then ten attacks from time stands still will beat out one attack with 100 bonus damage if you deal at least 12 damage per attack, which is pretty easy to do. And by that level, you've got swift action movement anyway.

Not to mention what happens if you have a bunch of natural weapons or go Two-Weapon Fighting. Double the attacks can get pretty ridiculous.

Although personally I prefer the White Raven Tactics 9th level maneuver. Especially in combination with Leading the Charge, so all your charging allies do +42 damage. Turn everybody into an Ubercharger! And then, when the other beatstick and/or Rogue is next to the foe, you can use White Raven Tactics to give 'em a Full Attack. White Raven is pretty nice.
...Does the +50 damage from War Master's Charge stack with Pounce? Because that would be downright nasty.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I also think it's overrated. It's a very good maneuver, and it can lead to a truly awesome "limit break" when done in combo with other things. Most often; winding up the previous round with Stormguard Warrior to make each attack hurt like a mack truck; but belt of battle or 10th level of Eternal Blade to get a 2nd full round action right after it (possibly a 2nd Time Stands Still, if you can find a trick to re-ready it w/o using even a swift action, or dual-progressing two adept classes far enough to take it on both) also can make it quite the omni-slash. And on a more basic level, there's the Tiger Claw boost for +2 attacks on a full attack (+4 if TWF) or the Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip boost, either of which would apply to each of Time Stands Still's full attack.

Another option I'm less fond of is to use TST as the wind-up instead, TWF with it for like 14 touch attacks (16 if hasted) to build up a huge damage bonus, then next turn multiplying all of it by x4 via Diamond NM Blade.

But it's not crazy awesome right out of the box, you need to really work it, and even then...Warmaster's Charge is still crazier (insane damage with a moderate sized group and auto-stun if they're somehow not dead). Possibly Tornado Throw, too, if you can get a really high move speed and the foe is small enough to be a valid trip target. I had a character with a speed over 100 and a decent amount of sneak attack dice optimized for trip/throwing...was getting trip bonuses of almost triple digits (which translates to moar damage) by the end of the strike, keeping in mind she was getting an attack every 10 ft moved, so it was like 20 attacks all on the same poor schlub.

[Teapot Salty]

One of my arguments was going to be: Raging mongoose outclasses it. Look at raging mongoose, +4 attacks if twf, make 12 attacks in a round, all with a 15-20 crit range, and crits lead to more attacks, mmmmmm.

[Eldariel]

One of my arguments was going to be: Raging mongoose outclasses it. Look at raging mongoose, +4 attacks if twf, make 12 attacks in a round, all with a 15-20 crit range, and crits lead to more attacks, mmmmmm.

Those two combine just fine tho (tho I've seen some DMs rule against it). And you're still getting 7-8 attacks from TSS as a TWFer so I'm not sure Raging Mongoose actually outclasses it as such.

[Snowbluff]

I like it:

1) Full Round action. This is rare for maneuvers. It fills an important niche of "being good at full attacking."
2) Full round attack. This is a no brainer. I hurt the guy more when I get more attacks. With power attack and other static damage bonuses (like Burning Blade), you can crank out some heavy damage. 100 damage is pathetic compared to this.
3) Works with ranged attack. Also very rare with manuevers.
4) Eternal Blade. You can get it early (depending on who you ask), and the PrC is pretty good.
5) Diamond Mind prerequisites. Diamond Mind is a good school with some nice defensive and offensive abilities.

[Teapot Salty]

Those two combine just fine tho (tho I've seen some DMs rule against it). And you're still getting 7-8 attacks from TSS as a TWFer so I'm not sure Raging Mongoose actually outclasses it as such.

Oh, sorry, I didn't convey my thoughts very well, allow me to elaborate. I'm saying I just realized that you can use both and that it's sweet when you do.

[Pluto!]

The full round activation time kills it for me.

I mean, it's fine, and you're probably going to be trying your best to get into full attack range anyway, but there are enough teleportation/AoO-avoidance effects and 200ft-move-speed dragons at high levels that I'm never optimistic about it, except to say "look what I can do!" while character-building

[StreamOfTheSky]

The full round activation time kills it for me.

I mean, it's fine, and you're probably going to be trying your best to get into full attack range anyway, but there are enough teleportation/AoO-avoidance effects and 200ft-move-speed dragons at high levels that I'm never optimistic about it, except to say "look what I can do!" while character-building

It helps if you have allies to keep the foe from escaping you, or you have lockdown/trip capabilities on an AoO. Barring that, you'd want to keep Sudden Leap or Quicksilver Motion in your pocket in case you need to chase the foe down between Stormguard wind-up round and TST round. It'll ruin the limit break having to use your swift just to move, but it'll still be a decent attack.

Feral Death Blow has the same problem; it's a full round action. I had a Tiger Claw-focused jump-striker that always wanted to use that but most of the time couldn't, just because of the set up. Actually, FDB has it worse than TST.... iirc, you must be *adjacent* to the foe to use it, not just melee reach.

[OldTrees1]

ToB classes tend to have abilities that do not work as part of a Full Attack. This weakens Time Stands Still unless the character specifically works at picking abilities that can work with a Full Attack.

For this reason Time Stands Still is much weaker than it first appears.

[Big Fau]

Why full attack when you can move and pop down 100 damage?


Consider this: If every attack you make deals 1d8+30 without any sort of additional damage, which maneuver is better?

Now consider this: At 17th level you can easily deal 2d6+75 on each attack if you use a Greatsword.