Considering dipping with a Synthesist. Suggestions?

[Beowulf DW]

All right, I know that the golden rule with Summoners is that you never dip unless you're going for a whacky concept or just need the spontaneous casting for something like Dragon Disciple, but I'm getting frustrated trying to make a build fit a concept. The concept is a kid that was always rather sickly (I dumped nothing. We used a somewhat unorthodox method of rolling for stats and this is what I got) and is now using the Eidolon to fulfill his dream of being a knight. Thing is, knights fight with weapons, not tooth and claw. I've seen just how effective natural weapons can be at low levels (we're at level 2 and on the slow experience track), but the whole point of the concept was a character that aspires to an ideal, and said ideal might be averse to fighting as a beast rather than a man.

And that is where a certain problem arises. Getting access to a decent melee weapon (i.e. a martial weapon) entails either the use of a feat (which are relatively precious to summoners), using four evolution points to get MWP while fused with the Eidolon, or a dip into a class like fighter or paladin.

Now, here's the thing. The DM is allowing DSP material, so I'm considering using 1 level of Warlord to get proficiencies, and I'd get some stances and maneuvers to help make up for the lack of combat feats.

Me being me, I'm torn by indecision. Should I dip? Should I blow a feat? Should I use the evolution points? Should I just have the character accept the Eidolon's form and use the natural attacks?

[Spore]

I'm pretty pissed that the idea of Paladin 2/Synth 8 didn't cross my mind when developing my "Angel Summoner".

I'd say it's fine. I would take two levels of Paladin overall (for the saves), I don't know anything about the Warblade. Why is it fine? You want to be melee so your spells are purely supplemental. You improve your saves and BAB while lacking in Str/Dex and natural Armor. So overall you trade Saves for a bit of Damage and Armor.

The only thing delicate about this would be the timing of your crossclassing. Paladin 2/Synth 2 is fine, heavily securing your saves and making you something of a mystical knight and mageslayer of the group. Maybe you could tell us your group make-up. If you are the only arcanist the crossclassing is harder to justify.

[grarrrg]

Synthesists can get away with dips a LOT better than normal Summoners can.
I'd still keep the not-Summoner levels to a minimum, but being able to grab Weapon Profs, and a handy ability or two can be very nice.

[13ones]

Let me quote someone on this:


By default the Eidolon is designed as a natural attacker. The Summoner class has 20 evolutions that either add or improve natural attacks, and exactly 1 evolution letting it wield a weapon (and that one isn't even very good); it also has Greater Magic Fang rather than Greater Magic Weapon on its spell list. However, D&D was basically designed on the assumption that the PCs would be using manufactured weapons, and so there's much more material out there for manufactured weapons than natural ones. Here are some of the advantages wielded weapons give:

Manufactured weapons give iterative attacks, natural weapons don't.
The Eidolon has a cap on how many natural attacks it's allowed to have, but no cap on weapon attacks.
You can get weapons in special materials to help getting through damage reduction. There's no way to get natural weapons to break DR/Adamantine or Cold Iron.
Manufactured weapons are much cheaper to enchant. The only Pathfinder item that grants an enhancement bonus to natural attacks is the Amulet of Mighty Fists, which is 2.5 times as expensive as an equivalent weapon.
Manufactured weapons typically have a higher base damage than natural weapons (a greatsword does 2d6, a bite 1d6) and can have abilities like Reach, Disarm, and Trip.
A manufactured weapon wielded in two hands adds 1.5 your Strength modifier to damage over multiple attacks.

For these reasons, it's worth at least considering whether you want to go the weapon route for your Eidolon. Even if you don't want to make it a focus, it can be worth taking a weapon proficiency so you can carry some Silver and Cold Iron weapons around just in case.


Here is a sample build if you'd like to just go a full Synth summoner, which I HIGHLY RECOMMEND over dipping:


Slugger (Weapon-Wielder)

Base Form: Quadruped or Biped
Evolutions: Reach (Weapon), Ability Increase (Strength), Limbs (Arms, if Quadruped), Pounce (if Quadruped)
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes

Get your Eidolon a big hefty two-handed weapon and go to town. (Note: do NOT get the Weapon Training evolution. MWP or EWP is far more efficient.) Go for Biped to maximise Strength and Reach, or Quadruped for the 'centaur' build like the ones in the Narnia films. This build requires very few evolution points, so unlike the others you'll be able to afford defensive and utility evolutions.

[Spore]

Get your Eidolon a big hefty two-handed weapon and go to town. (Note: do NOT get the Weapon Training evolution. MWP or EWP is far more efficient.)

Fused Eidolon disables the feats of the Eidolon.

[upho]

A warlord dip will definitely net you a lot more "knightly" prowess than any Paizo martial class can. I think it would be downright foolish of any martially inclined PC to not take advantage of the PoW classes in a game which includes them, and a synth can indeed manage dips a lot better than other summoners. The best alternative for a "true" knight would of course be a warlord with access to the Piercing Lance discipline and a good mount feature (à la the play test warder's Defender of the Realm archetype), but since it's a dip it would be paramount the DM agrees the mount can be upgraded to a monstrous cohort through Leadership at 7th level, or similar. And your synth would be starving badly for mounted combat feats, though it would make for a kinda cool, weird and fun concept IMO - a PC "wearing" a summoned creature mounted on a third creature... :smalltongue:

For a slightly less exotic unmounted knight, I'd definitely say go for a warlord dip. Your awesome synth ability scores, especially cha, will ensure you get the most possible out of the dip. I'd take 1-2 warlord levels early on (say level 2-3) for the basics and additional levels later on for a total of 4 levels, giving you opportunity to upgrade maneuvers when you have a higher IL. This could actually make for a very interesting and different synth, being not only an awesome martial character and decent caster, but also a leader.

[Beowulf DW]

Thanks for advice, everyone. Usually I'm not this indecisive when it comes to a build, but multiclassing tends to get me nervous.


I'm pretty pissed that the idea of Paladin 2/Synth 8 didn't cross my mind when developing my "Angel Summoner".

Sorry?



I'd say it's fine. I would take two levels of Paladin overall (for the saves), I don't know anything about the Warblade. Why is it fine? You want to be melee so your spells are purely supplemental. You improve your saves and BAB while lacking in Str/Dex and natural Armor. So overall you trade Saves for a bit of Damage and Armor.

Interesting. Dipping Paladin had occurred to me, but I talked myself out of it. I'll give it some more thought. The Warlord is DSP's version of 3.5's Warblade, updated and reworked for Pathfinder. They work off strength and charisma, and generally try to be "leaders by example." A marshal that marshals by showing others how it's done rather than telling them how it's done.



The only thing delicate about this would be the timing of your crossclassing. Paladin 2/Synth 2 is fine, heavily securing your saves and making you something of a mystical knight and mageslayer of the group. Maybe you could tell us your group make-up. If you are the only arcanist the crossclassing is harder to justify.

Our party currently consists of an Archivist Bard, a Rogue, a Tactician (DSP Ultimate Psionics), and a Forgemaster Cleric. Combat so far tends to end up with me as the melee spearhead, backed up by the cleric with the rogue generally trying to flank. The bard and the tactician tend to stay towards the back, but the tactician will set forward to fill a gap if he sees one.


Synthesists can get away with dips a LOT better than normal Summoners can.
I'd still keep the not-Summoner levels to a minimum, but being able to grab Weapon Profs, and a handy ability or two can be very nice.

I actually didn't know that. I had thought that Synthesists might actually suffer the most. Good to know.


A warlord dip will definitely net you a lot more "knightly" prowess than any Paizo martial class can. I think it would be downright foolish of any martially inclined PC to not take advantage of the PoW classes in a game which includes them, and a synth can indeed manage dips a lot better than other summoners. The best alternative for a "true" knight would of course be a warlord with access to the Piercing Lance discipline and a good mount feature (à la the play test warder's Defender of the Realm archetype), but since it's a dip it would be paramount the DM agrees the mount can be upgraded to a monstrous cohort through Leadership at 7th level, or similar. And your synth would be starving badly for mounted combat feats, though it would make for a kinda cool, weird and fun concept IMO - a PC "wearing" a summoned creature mounted on a third creature... :smalltongue:

For a slightly less exotic unmounted knight, I'd definitely say go for a warlord dip. Your awesome synth ability scores, especially cha, will ensure you get the most possible out of the dip. I'd take 1-2 warlord levels early on (say level 2-3) for the basics and additional levels later on for a total of 4 levels, giving you opportunity to upgrade maneuvers when you have a higher IL. This could actually make for a very interesting and different synth, being not only an awesome martial character and decent caster, but also a leader.

I'm definitely not going for a mounted build (though taking Leadership to get another Synthesist [quadruped base form] as a mount could be interesting...) so regular Warlord would probably be best.

[grarrrg]

I actually didn't know that. I had thought that Synthesists might actually suffer the most. Good to know.

A normal Summoner dipping loses Eidolon advancement, Spellcasting progression, and class abilities. There are currently no PrC's that will advance more than Spellcasting (excepting the somewhat odd Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist), which stacks 9/10 with ANYTHING EVER).

Since a Synthesist Summoner basically _IS_ his Eidolon, you just need to make sure you gain more from the dip than you lose from Eidolon advancement.
Spellcasting is also slightly less important for a Synthesist (action economy > can't Attack and Cast at the same time).
Finally, your next best class ability, Summon Monster, also does not function when your Eidolon-suit is on, so not a major loss.

[Orsyn]

I second the paladin 2 dip. CHA to saves is a wonderful thing for a synthesist, and it sounds like it fits your theme perfectly.

[Spore]

Our party currently consists of an Archivist Bard, a Rogue, a Tactician (DSP Ultimate Psionics), and a Forgemaster Cleric. Combat so far tends to end up with me as the melee spearhead, backed up by the cleric with the rogue generally trying to flank. The bard and the tactician tend to stay towards the back, but the tactician will set forward to fill a gap if he sees one.

So I would take a single level of an martial class immediately and I would follow up a possible second (if any second) level by levels 7+ (by then the bard/cleric combo has buffing on lockdown, albeit no inspire courage).

[Beowulf DW]

I second the paladin 2 dip. CHA to saves is a wonderful thing for a synthesist, and it sounds like it fits your theme perfectly.

The only snag there is the Code of Conduct. The Tactician is a close adherent of Callistria, and he can get vindictive when enemies are at his mercy. We almost came to blows over this once already. Being a paladin might not help matters in this regard. I'll have to give it some thought.

Thanks a bunch everyone. I really appreciate the advice. And extra thanks to grarrrg for telling me about the Evangelist. That is rather strange, and certainly worth considering. Iomedae is pretty much the god of knights and paladins, and with that class, I'd get proficiency with the longsword, so definitely something to consider.