E1: How would you do it?

[malonkey1]

I am wanting to run a campaign that only goes to level 1. I was going to use the E6 rules, modified as follows, but I wanted you opinions:


There is no cap for feats. You can accrue any number of feats.
Every 5 feats offers a free ability boost (identical to the one normally gained every 4th level)
Precocious Apprentice can be taken multiple times. It doesn't offer additional slots, but it does offer additional spells of a level up to 2+(# XP-granted feats)/10. It can also be taken by divine casters for divine spells, psionic characters offering 3 pp and a 2nd-level power for the first time, and a power of the appropriate level in place of the spell. Once you get a new spell of a new level, you get a single slot of that level (or power points equal to 1/2 the new power's level - 1).


Any suggestions?

[Tvtyrant]

Sounds like a giant game of death ball. Slowly but steadily increasing encounters while the HP stays static.

[malonkey1]

Sounds like a giant game of death ball. Slowly but steadily increasing encounters while the HP stays static.

There are gonna be feats for gaining additional hit dice, but yes. It's a very gritty campaign.

[Demidos]

Maybe make standard 2nd level? As is, you get most people dying from a single sword stab, which, while somewhat accurate, makes life for PCs very very difficult.

Also, how are feats accrued?

[Phelix-Mu]

I am wanting to run a campaign that only goes to level 1. I was going to use the E6 rules, modified as follows, but I wanted you opinions:


There is no cap for feats. You can accrue any number of feats.
Every 5 feats offers a free ability boost (identical to the one normally gained every 4th level)
Precocious Apprentice can be taken multiple times. It doesn't offer additional slots, but it does offer additional spells of a level up to 2+(# XP-granted feats)/10. It can also be taken by divine casters for divine spells, psionic characters offering 3 pp and a 2nd-level power for the first time, and a power of the appropriate level in place of the spell. Once you get a new spell of a new level, you get a single slot of that level (or power points equal to 1/2 the new power's level - 1).


Any suggestions?

It strikes me that this would be a really interesting way to model a kind of modern setting where magic is just starting to re/awaken in the world. This is because I'm always reminded of the threads where it's stated over and over that pretty much everyone irl is 1st level (and thus class levels really are a pretty useless way to model real world stuff in an interesting way, because you only ever get one level). Also, if most of the enemies were other 1st level npcs (like in a modern setting), then you could have interesting and challenging encounters without the virtual suicide of trying to take down higher CR stuff from the monster manual.

Just a thought.

Also, how are you gauging when people are awarded new feats? Is it using xp still, but only thing gained by the "virtual levels" are more feats? This might be an interesting way to experiment with achievement awards and story-awards, directly awarding feats based on the feats that the group is accomplishing.

[8wGremlin]

Interesting concept - how are feats gained?

Also archers become more deadly as characters can actually be taken down by and arrow.
Tiers become a lot more balanced.

(if you ever ran this as a PBM/PBP/PBF i'd be interested)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A character's race will matter as much as their class, if not more. Expect to see a lot of race/template combinations, especially if you use the E6 method of replacing level adjustment with a lower point buy. For example, a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) gets you Str 28, Dex 6, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 8, +8 natural armor, two slams that both hit for your full attack bonus and deal 2d6+1.5 Str, Levitate 3/day, resistances, immunities, DR, SR, and he's a large outsider.

His one class level wouldn't be very relevant even, considering he's proficient with all martial weapons due to his type and he gets +8 to hit with no BAB. I'd probably make him a Warblade or Crusader, or even a Dragonfire Adept or Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#orcParagon). Get two flaws, take Toughness, Troll Blooded, and probably Combat Reflexes. Troll Blooded from Dragon 319 gives him Regeneration 1, so he takes nonlethal damage from anything but fire and acid, he has Resistance 10 to both of those and SR 11, plus DR 10/Cold Iron or Good. He full attacks for two hits at +8 or +9 for 2d6+13 each with 10 ft. reach, probably has twice as much HP as anyone else, has an AC so high nobody can hit him and even if they do he won't get hurt...

Besides that, expect to see Lion Spirit Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer with Versatile Spellcaster for access to their entire 2nd level spell list, and Fell Drain Sonic Snap with Easy Metamagic and/or Metamagic School Focus and/or Versatile Spellcaster which automatically kills anyone it damages in a single hit.

[malonkey1]

Also, how are you gauging when people are awarded new feats? Is it using xp still, but only thing gained by the "virtual levels" are more feats? This might be an interesting way to experiment with achievement awards and story-awards, directly awarding feats based on the feats that the group is accomplishing.

A combination of XP (using your level + # extra feats/5 as level), and story rewards. Some events might give specific feats (like a Spelltouched feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm) being offered for tackling a mad wizard).

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm a 2e veteran, and I always was a little sad how much easier the game became after 1st-3rd in 3e. Unless you do boneheaded stuff later on or build for failure, it's a lot harder to wipe out characters in this edition than before, imho. And I just miss the grittiness. Granted, my entire experience with 2e was fairly low-op, so I wasn't hip to all the stuff that could be milked out of that system.

I'd like this kind of variant setup because it really keeps that low-level feel of constantly being a couple failed rolls away from death for much longer. Which, to me, should be part of a setting where the characters are outliers that are taking their lives in their hands every day and doing legitimately suicidal-type activities. As opposed to the system being exploitable enough that risk, even at fairly low levels, can almost be removed from the game entirely (beyond the one round or so it takes to kill any level-appropriate encounter).

The amount of risk-reward present in 3e really makes me wonder why everyone doesn't spend at least a few levels doing murderhobo. If the commoners got together in sufficient numbers, they could probably kill enough enemies to significantly level and acquire more loot than they would see in six lifetimes.

Oh. Yeah, this system will probably provide a basis for a much more realistic representation of power-levels within the overall population, as feats are more granular and offer more specific benefits than a level in even an npc class.

[8wGremlin]

Actually a high dex, average int stout halfling wizard with precocious apprentice and fiery burst might be fun.

2d6 damage 5-foot-radius burst of fire at a range of 30 feet, all day long could be fun, win initiative and blast.

Stats for casting matter less, as you only get 2nd level spells.

But really, I'd play a Divine caster of Galaedros with Circle Magic feat (ghostwalk) and make sure I travelled with some other divine casting Galaedros worshipers.

Your 5 man party get very high level spells with this, each sacrificing a 1st level spell creates +4 heighten spell, so 5th level spell.

Which can be used to fuel 'fiery burst', or 'summon elemental' all day long (5d6 in a 5' burst damage is nasty!).

If you're a cleric (or cloistered cleric) with the spontaneous domain ACF you can sacrifice your boosted spell to sack the heightened spell to cast Animal, Earth, Plant or knowledge (your choice of one) higher level spell.
or if druid SNA 2,3,4 or 5!

[cosmonuts]

Here is a killer. Incarnate construct mineral warrior divine minion unseelie fey master of many forms. LA +0. So much power.

[Phelix-Mu]

I imagine some kind of conservative view on template usage would have to be established, to avoid craziness. Maybe one could go into "feat slot debt" in order to pay for a template, automatically devoting the first X feats to that template. Hmm. That might be an interesting way to allow more diversity in starting builds.

[Coidzor]

I am wanting to run a campaign that only goes to level 1. I was going to use the E6 rules, modified as follows, but I wanted you opinions:


There is no cap for feats. You can accrue any number of feats.
Every 5 feats offers a free ability boost (identical to the one normally gained every 4th level)
Precocious Apprentice can be taken multiple times. It doesn't offer additional slots, but it does offer additional spells of a level up to 2+(# XP-granted feats)/10. It can also be taken by divine casters for divine spells, psionic characters offering 3 pp and a 2nd-level power for the first time, and a power of the appropriate level in place of the spell. Once you get a new spell of a new level, you get a single slot of that level (or power points equal to 1/2 the new power's level - 1).


Any suggestions?

Level 0: HP equal to Constitution Score instead of having a hit die or having a 1d2+Con modifier virtual HD(or one that only counts as 1/2 a HD). Either no skill points or 4+int+racial with no multiplier, max 1 or 2 ranks per skill.

I can't remember if E6 has a plateau for XP required for a new feat, but if not, I'd recommend considering a plateauing effect after a certain number of feats. Or just awarding an increase to max hp/skillpoints/feats when dramatically appropriate following a sort of Milestone system ala FATE.

[Pinkie Pyro]

just to make the classes mean a little more, I would make it so they get the benefits of their level 2 class features, at least through a feat.

rouge still gets evasion, paladin gets divine health, fighter gets his capstone, make the classes matter a tad bit more than the races.

[SiuiS]

Look behind the code.

What do you want to accomplish, h
ere? Why stop at level one? Is it the threat faced by enemies? Is it the lack of gap between 1st level caster and 1st level everyone else? Is it just to stop your players from focusing on advancement to the exclusion of everything else?

You may be better served just saying "make a level 4 character. You will not advance vertically. Make them thematic." And see how that plays out.

[Anlashok]

Your biggest challenge here is going to be differentiating characters more. Without access to their class features and only minor skill investments it's hard to differentiate between similar classes, the fighter and the ranger are gonna look really similar... even the casters can blend with the martials if they're built more aggressively (battle wizard ACF for instance).

Numbers are also gonna skew you a lot: At level 1, a rogue almost doubles his damage with a sneak attack. Certain classes might need to be looked over too. A paladin doesn't get a lot of his cool toys and class defining features at level 1 for instance. He's also gonna look and act much like a fighter, even moreso than normal. So you'll have to fiddle there.

There are gonna be feats for gaining additional hit dice, but yes. It's a very gritty campaign.

I dunno. There's a line between "gritty" and "The orc rolled an 7... go make a new character"

[Krazzman]

Five behind the code.

What do you want to accomplish, here? Why stop at level one? Is it the threat faced by enemies? Is it the lack of gap between 1st level caster and 1st level everyone else? Is it just to stop your players from focusing on advancement to the exclusion of everything else?

You may be better served just saying "make a level 4 character. You will not advance vertically. Make them thematic." And see how that plays out.

I had the same thought. Why not just start at Low Level X and tell your players not to plan with advancement in levels but only Bonusfeats.
Remember Level 2 is for some classes the first time certain main abilities come online.
The two Meldshaper classes for example get their Binds only at second level. Which is unfortunate for a first-level non dragon-bloodline totemist as he can't shape himself some weapon until then.
Assuming a non or low-optimized party a con of 14 is around the baseline. That means a d4-hitdie class would have 12 HP. Enough to take an Arrow but not enough to stand Melee.

As others around here already said I would probably start at level 2, maybe with or without advancement to level 3.
Also Psionics can turn hilarious pretty fast.
Psion, taking the Psionic Feat to get +2HP/PsiFeat and then just take Psionic Feats to the maximum.
This along with just an Elan, that can dump PP to reduce incoming damage...

This makes certain builds just soooo much stronger than others. Also Frontloaded classes are the best bet you can have.
Let's get another example:
Warforged Crusader, with the Adamantine Plating Feat.
DR3/-, Crusader Healing every strike+sometimes healing via maneuver, Delayed Damage pool... and this was a chance build from a new to the game player. Coupled with at least 13 HP... now imagine someone that can actually optimize...

[NichG]

I kind of like this idea in principle, but I'd mess around with what it actually means for a PC to be Lv1 forever, rather than add the higher levels back in via HD-granting feats and things like that. I would most want to figure out some other system of advancement that runs in place of the old system - the continual addition of feats is fine, but it'd be nice to have some other kind of growth, such as rank in an organization, size of armies commanded, etc. Basically some other major 'thing' that is central to the idea of the campaign.

The main thing to keep in mind is that this sort of campaign wouldn't work too well for a game where the PCs are actually expected to get into many combats. At Lv1, things are swingy enough that no one should really want to risk their character by getting into an actual fight.

[Arbane]

So... you want characters who get fairly varied abilities, limited magic, and can die from one unlucky hit?



Any suggestions?

Play RuneQuest.

[Wacky89]

sounds horrible to me

[Ruethgar]

Elven Generalists are insanely powerful.
Kobolds are kings of course with Dragonwrought Epic Toughness.
Using the normal E6 rules with LA, White Dragonspawn are also well on up there in power being level 1-10 sorcerers(normally 4th).
Sorcerers can also cast spells beyond their levels and, with infinite feats get, 9th level spells eventually.
As mentioned the water orc and warforged are to drool for.
And now a Spellfire Wielding Mongrelfolk Dragonborn even looks good.
Of course the best base races without shenanigans would be the Anthropomorphic Raven and Bat as the two best ways to get flight at level 1, plus the bat's blindsense and the raven's net +2 abilty scores.

Without the above, or similar, you would end up with a lot of characters looking similar. Everyone would have the Minor Divine Spellcaster, Magical Training, Shape Soulmeld, Binder, Martial Study etc. feats. Certainly they would be different, but they would lack flavor. Also, having been making E6 characters I can tell you that lessening the cap only makes me want to optimize more to achieve my intended character flavor. And from having written up generic level 1s for leadership and towns, they can get about as powerful as many of our legends with ease. Forcing people into such a narrow field, I feel, would widen the gap between optimizers and casual players. Whereas in E6 or lvl 20, the optimizer is going for the long run, more than likely, and may at least stay relatively near everyone else while leveling, pushing it down to level one makes it seem like you have to cram as much as you can into that first level. I realize that the bonus feats allow to continue to accrue power as times goes on, but those are in flux as to how many you'll get as opposed to a set potential like an actual level.

[malonkey1]

Also, having been making E6 characters I can tell you that lessening the cap only makes me want to optimize more to achieve my intended character flavor. And from having written up generic level 1s for leadership and towns, they can get about as powerful as many of our legends with ease. Forcing people into such a narrow field, I feel, would widen the gap between optimizers and casual players. Whereas in E6 or lvl 20, the optimizer is going for the long run, more than likely, and may at least stay relatively near everyone else while leveling, pushing it down to level one makes it seem like you have to cram as much as you can into that first level. I realize that the bonus feats allow to continue to accrue power as times goes on, but those are in flux as to how many you'll get as opposed to a set potential like an actual level.

I should point out that my group is a bunch of optimizers.

[Gildedragon]

A high Cha bard with bind vestige and practiced binder is killer. With ridiculous charisma and the capacity to rush sans penalty means getting out of combat all the time

[Coidzor]

I dunno. There's a line between "gritty" and "The orc rolled an 7... go make a new character"

Or even "go spend the next 20 minutes making a new character and wait another 30 on top of that for the potential that I'll introduce it." :/

Though here I suppose the level limit would cut down the time some depending upon how ability scores are generated.

[malonkey1]

Or even "go spend the next 20 minutes making a new character and wait another 30 on top of that for the potential that I'll introduce it." :/

Though here I suppose the level limit would cut down the time some depending upon how ability scores are generated.

Yeah, I was planning on using the Death Flag rule (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Variant_Rules#The_Death_Flag).

[TiaC]

Elan Wilder is a very powerful build. Psionic Body and Psionic talent will allow them to have insane endurance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This looks like a situation for Vitality and Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm).

Just out of curiosity, how is anyone supposed to take Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and similar? Or will it be nothing but potions and alchemical items and masterwork items?

[NichG]

Death flag does seem like a good call for this. For making magic items, there are ways to boost your caster level pretty high with feats - I ran an E6 game where the party eventually figured out how to craft stuff at CL20 or so. It'd be a lot harder in E1, granted.

That said, de-emphasizing PC crafting of magic items is not necessarily a bad thing if you want to run a fast paced campaign without long downtimes. Make it something that can be done via special ritual, recipe, or the combined efforts of a circle of Lv1 mages (something like an equivalent to Thayan circle casting) and just have it be something done elsewhere in the setting by career mages (or have it be something where every magic item is an artifact created by dragons/titans/whatever; could still be available for purchase, but it'd help to explain the huge price gap between magic stuff and non-magic stuff).

[JusticeZero]

In all my E# games there is a feat which increases your level by one for purposes of class abilities and prerequisites (not spells), since new things tend to come online at odd numbers. This is important. Also important is a feat to increase class level (fairly substantially) for purposes of "Prerequisite: Class level X", mostly because Fighter. Otherwise you have a hard time getting at some of those feats.