OOTS #953 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Starwulf]

Wow, kinda didn't see that one coming. There went my hopes that this might at least set off SOME suspicion in the rest of the OoTS members besides Belkar, but apparently not.

Still, I got a laugh with how non-emotive the evil Durkula was with his response after he used Control Weather: "What, it's on the standard spell list, Geez".

[Waar]

Nice control weather effects there.

[Arcon]

Wow, kinda didn't see that one coming.



Well half the forum saw it coming, perfectly logical for Durkula :smallsmile:

[Domino Quartz]

Oh. Too bad. :smallfrown:

[Starwulf]

Well half the forum saw it coming, perfectly logical for Durkula :smallsmile:

I don't actually read the OoTS forum. Every once in a while I might, but it's been at least 2-3 months since I last read/participated in a thread outside of the comic thread, and even in the comic thread I generally just come in, leave my comment, and exit the thread. I dislike hearing everyone else's ideas, preferring to come up with my own ideas(wrong 90% of the time, but meh, what's the fun otherwise)

[Neoriceisgood]

I must admit I've never played D&D with a cleric involved.

Would there be an actual discernable difference between Durkon pleading Thor for weather help & standard weather control? :smallredface:

[cyberpunK]

I wonder if this actually will work

[Icedaemon]

While I did see the end coming roughly halfway through the buildup, I was hoping to see how casting a spell is dealt with 'internally'. Ah well. Still a good'un.

[slayerx]

Wow, kinda didn't see that one coming. There went my hopes that this might at least set off SOME suspicion in the rest of the OoTS members besides Belkar, but apparently not.

And didn't really see why it should have raised suspicions if he was no longer a cleric of Thor. Afterall he already admitted his vamperic status gave him an alignment shift towards evil AND that he was now geared towards negative energy instead of positive energy. Really the idea that he's no longer tight with the Lawful GOOD god of thunder should not be much of surprise to the order.

[Quild]

I wonder if this actually will work

Same thing, but I expect it to work since I totally expect vampire-Durkon to reach the dwarven lands.

[warmachine]

Funny, but it can't work. The spell is powered by Hel but lightening is Thor's domain, therefore Thor wins any divine contest to control the lightning.

[CrispyCriminal]

Ha, this vamp's got balls! Control weather to divert a divine omen, this'll either work or it'll just piss off Thor more.

Thor may be a bit of a buffoon, but he's definitely not the exemplar of a one trick pony.

[Ninjaman]

Smooth as *beep*.

[Edhelras]

Weird - to see Belkar as somehow the major champion of goodiness in the OOTS. No Wonder Blackwing feels his stomach turned upsidedown.... So strange....

[Querzis]

I very highly doubt you can just Control Weather a storm personally conjured by the God of Thunder. Honestly, I think this is just gonna piss off Thor more.

[Starwulf]

And didn't really see why it should have raised suspicions if he was no longer a cleric of Thor. Afterall he already admitted his vamperic status gave him an alignment shift towards evil AND that he was now geared towards negative energy instead of positive energy. Really the idea that he's no longer tight with the Lawful GOOD god of thunder should not be much of surprise to the order.

That is a very good point actually. Did Durkula ever specifically say that he no longer got his spells from Thor? I remember him telling at least Roy I believe, that he now had to pray at night time for his spells, but I can't recall if he said whether or not he still got them from Thor. Even if we realize that he likely wouldn't still pray to Thor due to the inherent alignment shift from dwarf to undead dwarf, the rest of the party doesn't have our "outsider" knowledge, and might still be under the impression that he still prays to Thor, so this could have set off some kind of suspicion, even if seems like a "Duh, of course he isn't with Thor anymore" to us.

[Quild]

Weird - to see Belkar as somehow the major champion of goodiness in the OOTS. No Wonder Blackwing feels his stomach turned upsidedown.... So strange....

Well, this has already been mentionned about Belkar, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Cloud]

Heh, was waiting for the Control Weather spell, but even if he didn't have it prepared, seems like Roy would have understood Thor not listening to just prayers for help given what's happened, so I don't think this was ever going to be as successful as Durkon or Belkar were hoping for.

The smile from Roy is so unsettling though, he's going to feel awful if he finds out the truth about how being turned into a vampire works.

[VoxRationis]

It was to be expected that the matter couldn't be solved so quickly into the new book, but I personally find it improbable; Thor should have a much higher caster level for his control weather-type effect and would simply overpower anything the faux-Durkon could throw at the storm. Even the direct intervention of Hel, arguably, might not work, because the storm is Thor's domain specifically.

[DDRNick]

This should clear it right up.

[reaverb]

It was to be expected that the matter couldn't be solved so quickly into the new book, but I personally find it improbable; Thor should have a much higher caster level for his control weather-type effect and would simply overpower anything the faux-Durkon could throw at the storm.I'm not convinced Thor is directly causing it. Yes it's his domain so Adad can't intervene, but that doesn't necessarily mean Thor is actively creating the storm.

[Edhelras]

I wonder if this actually will work

The spell description is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm

Actually, it seems its' somewhat limited what the spell can do, despite the powerful "Control"-word of the title. You cannot kinda remove one kind of unwanted weather; what you do is call forth one type of weather, as appropriate for the season (and what season is it now, in OOTS-verse?). Those weather types available all seems to be quite harsh; simple "Nice, calm weather" isn't on the list.

Also, the casting time is 10 minutes, and after that there's another 10 minutes until the weather change is finished. So that means at least 15, maybe 20 minutes more With difficult weather for the Mechane. Furthermore, Durkola needs to be able to go through 10 minutes of casting and concentration. Plenty of time for Thor to interrupt with another attack of lightning.

In all, I'm not certain Durkola will pull this through. The appropriate choice for a true cleric of Thor might be - not trying to conquer the god with magic, but simply appealing to your patron deity with a non-magical prayer. After all, we've seen before that deities in OOTS (as in DnD) aren't only there for dealing out spells, they're also deities in the more traditional concept. A high-level cleric of good standing with Thor should be able to appeal for protection against Thor's destructive lightning, even in a situation where lightning storms surrounded the cleric and his company.

[Don Ohnic]

I would not expect Durkula to get off the hook this easily. There will be more complications, probably immediately, in the next strip.

(leaning back, enjoying the show)

[Quild]

I'm not convinced Thor is directly causing it. Yes it's his domain so Adad can't intervene, but that doesn't necessarily mean Thor is actively creating the storm.

Thing is that the bolt just went around the lighning rod. There's a fair chance that this storm isn't entirely natural.

[Edhelras]

Nice control weather effects there.

But... we actually haven't seen the Control weather effect, yet..... The weather is unchanged, and will be for at least 10 minutes (the casting time), and then another 10 minutes before the new weather shows up.
But maybe it was meant kinda sarcastically? "Huh, nice control weather effect, dude...." But still - too early to tell. Depending on the season, we might expect all kinds of un-kind weather to arrive in 20 minutes or so (how many strips is that in OOTS-time? Might be expected around Comic # 1000 or something.....)

[Cynric]

Oh Roy. Truly denial is not just a river on a planet that may or may not exist in the OotS continuity.

[Timy]

I wonder if this actually will work

Exactly my thought...

Edit :

And actually, I don't think it will.

We have "proof" that it is Thor himself who made the storm :
- calm weather and then "storm of the year"
- the lighting that avoid the lighting rod entirely

And knowing that, a normal casting of control weather will NOT by-pass the will of a god ! (especially not Thor storm)

[HeeJay]

Really the idea that he's no longer tight with the Lawful GOOD god of thunder should not be much of surprise to the order.


Lawful? Really? If Thor is Lawful, then Xykon is Good.

Thor may be A-OK with Lawful followers, but he himself is anything but.

[Snowyowl]

The spell description is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm

Actually, it seems its' somewhat limited what the spell can do, despite the powerful "Control"-word of the title. You cannot kinda remove one kind of unwanted weather; what you do is call forth one type of weather, as appropriate for the season (and what season is it now, in OOTS-verse?). Those weather types available all seems to be quite harsh; simple "Nice, calm weather" isn't on the list.

You can too remove one kind of unwanted weather. Look right at the bottom of the page:


Control weather can do away with atmospheric phenomena (naturally occurring or otherwise) as well as create them.

Exactly what Durkon's situation calls for.

[Edhelras]

You can too remove one kind of unwanted weather. Look right at the bottom of the page:

Exactly what Durkon's situation calls for.

Hm. Maybe I don't understand what "atmospheric phenomena" is, then? Does it mean simply "weather"? I was thinking rather of more special kinds of atmospheric disturbances. But then I'm not a meteorologist. Heck, I'm not even sure how to write the word....

[dtilque]

A clash of titans coming. Well, clash of gods, anyway. Hel is providing Durkula's spells. This Control Weather will be in direct conflict with Thor's "message". So are we going to see Thor and Hel duke it out in Asgard? I'd like to see that.

I especially would like to see Thor's art upgrade. And Thor in a more serious role than comic relief.

[BobVosh]

I would think a storm, a spell of Thor's direct domain, IN Thor's domains, wouldn't do very much.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So, I guess the High Priest of Hel has been pretending to be a Cleric of Thor in front of the others. Perhaps he's worried admiring to being the High Priest of Hel would raise suspicions? In any case, I'm not sure how well Control Weather would work. This is god vs. mortal, after all.

[MugaSofer]

Yeah, I think the Vampire has another thing coming. Opposing the divine might of Thor with a puny Control Weather spell? Good luck with that.

[ratfox]

I didn't actually expect Control Weather, because I don't see how it could override Thor throwing is weight about.
But from the middle of the comic, I expected something anti-climatic :smallbiggrin:

Still, I think the next panel will be about how this is not working. Standard spell against God? Please.

[Baphomet]

I too am surprised that they still expect him to be the cleric of Thor. He already more-or-less admitted to being Evil now to Roy so that presumably put him out of Thor's good graces already, and he even has the oft-discussed existence of nontheistic clerics to fall back on as an excuse if he doesn't want to admit to being the cleric of Hel for some reason. Although, either of those points could be nullified by lack of sufficient ranks in Knowledge (Religion) for the involved parties. But still, all he has to do is make up an excuse about why he's now no longer Thor's cleric and Thor's not happy about that. Given the choice between doing that and trying to use a spell in a god's domain to nullify a divine message from that very god in his territory, I'd go with the former.

Although, another possibility is that he knows how tenuous his situation is here. Maybe he knows that the party has two real quests right now, to stake and then resurrect him and to save the world. They're only foregoing the former because it might be detrimental to their ability to solve the latter and the latter is much more important. If he admitted to being a literal lightning rod for Thor's wrath, they may well decide that he's going to be a detriment to their ability to save the world either way and stake him anyway. Better to try his best to keep up the facade as long as he can.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I wonder if the "right as Thor's rain" is what makes the Order feel like he is still a Cleric of Thor. Also, I'm not sure if saying that he's a Cleric of Hel now would be enough to help the High Priest of Hel because it doesn't explain why Thor is targeting him. It's not like the gods routinely try to smite Clerics of other gods.

[Roland Itiative]

We know almost for a fact that the storm is Thor's doing, with its unusual circumstances, but what are the chances it's an actual response to Durkon's condition? I mean, sure, it seems ominous enough that Thor would throw a storm such as that at them as soon as they entered his domain while carrying the High Priest of Hel piggybacking in the body of a servant of his, but he has also shown to do some things pretty randomly. I'm not sure if I believe it myself, but it's always a possibility.

Anyway, Durkula seemed to have somehow expected this possibility (despite his delayed response), since Control Weather isn't really a spell I would prepare if I intend to go underground on that same day.

[Edhelras]

It's not like the gods routinely try to smite Clerics of other gods.

Nor is it like clerics routinely try to pose as clerics of another, counter-aligned, deity either.

[SPOLLER - though not on OOTS]

When I played Cormyr, tearing of the wave, I was intrigued by Cyricist and Sharrans posing as priests of Mystra. In particular, it seems only right that followers of the Prince of Lies should use these tactics - and I've later used that element in an adventure of my own making. However, one thing that was somewhat disturbing to that scenario was: Why didn't the deity herself strike down or expose the imposters?

Actually, it might be part of Thor's always-drunk always-unreliable personality that allows this deception to go on. And it would be only fitting that Thor reacts with hurling lightning bolts, in a ferocious and un-discriminatory rage, once he discovers what's going on.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Nor is it like clerics routinely try to pose as clerics of another, counter-aligned, deity either.
Hmm, so then perhaps Thor is hoping to expose him with this storm.

[Flame of Anor]

Well, crud. Honestly, it was too much to hope that Durkula would be unmasked this soon, but it's still a disappointment. Still, we can trust that this will influence the future in some way. Maybe the storm won't go away as easily as it would normally, but even if it does, perhaps this can set in motion some character development with Belkar and Roy.

[Trubbol]

For some reason, I would imagine if cleric managed to make a storm sent by a god to go away, the god would just have another storm pop up just as fast as the first one.

[thanna93]

Yeah, given Durkula's reaction in the previous comics, I am guessing that he himself isn't entirely confident that things are gonna be that easy for him.

[Killer Angel]

For some reason, I would imagine if cleric managed to make a storm sent by a god to go away, the god would just have another storm pop up just as fast as the first one.

Pretty much. If Thor is actively sending the storm, a control weather won't stop him.

And anyway, Belkar won't be fooled so easily, you monster! :smallcool:

[Edhelras]

perhaps this can set in motion some character development with Belkar and Roy.

He may be Death's li'l helper, but he sure isn't Undeath's helper in any way!!

I wonder, BTW, whether Belkar at next appropriate Ranger level will pick Undead as favored enemy?
Personally, I often let my Ranger start with that at 1st lvl, kinda powergaming, since "Undead" type is the broadest category of monsters, which would allow a wide range of uses of the combat bonuses from favored enemy. Furthermore, for most of my ranger PCs it makes sense that they hate undead so much... It's against the natural order.
For a common ranger, I guess favored enemy: animals would be the most natural choice at lvl 1, as hunting animals is what a ranger would do a lot of, particularly at low levels. Or vermin or plants. Possibly goblinoids.
Another natural and frequently useful choice would be favored enemy: humanoids (humans). But in most settings, humans, despite often being Evil, would still count among the "goodly races", and having them as favored enemies seems ... kinda nasty to me. Even though many of the bonuses aren't actually combat/damage bonuses, and are more the result of intimate knowledge than simply lots of combat experience. But still, I reserve for Evil Rangers to pick humans as favored enemy.

What are Belkar's favored enemies, anyway? The class&level geekery doesn't say.

[Chantelune]

Considering Roy's remark "might be more complicated than that", I think at least some member of the order are aware that Durkon might no longer be under Thor's jurisdiction. As other said, Durkon already admit being now evil and mentioned as well that he would now need to prepare his spells on dusk instead of dawn. Admitting to a deity change would only be "normal" under such circumstances, or even saying that he's no longer under the charge of a god.

If this fail, I think the point here is that he's trying to fix it. Roy seems happy to see him cast the spell even though we don't know the issue yet. That's a sign of goodwill on his part (or can be seen that way to people hoping that he's still "good ol' Durkon") and he might be able to get away with it with "Well, guess Thor isn't happy with the change". That was to be expected, after all.

Still, that matter of fact tone from Durkula at the end was quite funny. XD

[dps]

Lurky Corpsewhiskers. Lol.

[FujinAkari]

So... why does HTOH seem to think that Thor will give a god's damn about Control Weather? This is a direct manifestation and assault by Thor...

[hamishspence]

Whether or not :smallamused: Thor is involved directly, what's affecting the Mechane is still weather - it can be Controlled.

[ManuelSacha]

Thor obviously isn't fooled.
Roy apparently is (what a disappointment).

I still don't believe it will be that easy for Durkula.
I mean, the GOD of thunder is purposefully sending that storm.
Hel(l), he was waiting for them to enter the Northern Pantheon's territory, to strike them from minute one!
It isn't over...

[Greatmoustache]

damn that hurts.

ok, i wasn't expecting anyone (who isn't belkar) have suspicions about durkula. and the way the strip played itself, the cutbacks to durkon and belkar and all, were shouting for a giant "haha, nope!"

but damn.

now belkar will have even a harder time convincing anybody.

oh, and i was kinda expecting durkula to go like "since malack vamp'd me, i feel abandoned, my faith in thor has shaken, i don't think he hears my prayers anymore. i felt this way since we entered the pyramid but i just thought it was about the pressure on this mission you know? i didn't wanna alarm you back then lad, you had your hands full. but it seems thor really has abandoned me. bla bla bla"

but then again, control weather being one of the standard cleric spells...

[Burner28]

I'm not surprised in the end that Durkula has yet to be caught out by Roy. But it should only be a matter of time.

[Metahuman1]

I wonder if this actually will work

Not with any DM I've ever run a cleric under.

Also, as an aside, I hate this sub plot. That's all.

[With a box]

Thor ignored control wether once at 353

[placeholdername]

What are Belkar's favored enemies, anyway? The class&level geekery doesn't say.

I like to think his first one was kobolds.

http://i.imgur.com/M2ZKTHL.png

[TurtlesAWD]

I believe the order was planning on bypassing the dwarven lands entirely, while we know that due to prophecy Durkon will be returning to the dwarven lands posthumously. I think it's at least somewhat likely that all Thor really wanted was to get Durkon (and the HPoH) into the dwarven lands so he could do what he's fated to do, hence damaging the ship just enough that they need to stop for repairs.

In the panel in which Control Weather is being cast, the rain doesn't appear to be letting up but it does have a ten minute cast time, if I recall properly from the last time Durkon used the spell. Unless he's using a quickened version here? Does he have that metamagic feat? I think I need to check the class and level geekery thread now.

[Keltest]

So, critiquing the actual comic strip for a moment rather than the story, im not sure how I feel about how Durkon's body is portrayed now. He seems a lot more like a puppet who isn't being actively controlled now, in spite of what the HPoH spirit says.

[TurtlesAWD]

So, critiquing the actual comic strip for a moment rather than the story, im not sure how I feel about how Durkon's body is portrayed now. He seems a lot more like a puppet who isn't being actively controlled now, in spite of what the HPoH spirit says.


I'm pretty sure Durkon being all wrapped up is just indicative that both Durkon's and the HPoH's soul are within the body, HPoH in control with Durkon just trapped permanently and along for the ride.

[Nenec]

I didn't expect the Control Weather and I really really hope it fails as it should be.
Also, go Belkar!

[Keltest]

I'm pretty sure Durkon being all wrapped up is just indicative that both Durkon's and the HPoH's soul are within the body, HPoH in control with Durkon just trapped permanently and along for the ride.

Im referring specifically to the panels where we see the vampire body, with fangs and whatnot. He has been incredibly passive in this arc so far, especially compared to last arc where similar if not more serious situations were popping up left and right. But as far as weve seen this arc, since shouting "THOR'S NUTS!" he's just stood there. He didn't even give Belkar a sarcastic "Get out of my face so I can work, ya silly git!"

[sengmeng]

So, that should work, since Durkula is able to intercede as an agent of Hel and Thor doesn't have a cleric on site... but, can't Thor just raise another storm? Control Weather has a duration of 4d12 hours- anywhere from 4 hours to two days, average just over a day. It isn't bad odds that the god of thunder can summon more storms than the high priest of Hel has prepared to deal with.

[Paseo H]

Meh, figured this would happen. It would have had to of course, obviously can't let this subplot end too quickly.

[deimos3428]

Wait a minute (actually ten).

A cleric of Thor *stopping* a storm? Capable or not is irrelevant, the jig is up. They'll know he's not a worshipper of Thor.

He should be basking in divine glory, being so favored. What's next, cavorting with trees?

And if nobody else, Elan should figure this out, given his genre savvy and familiarity with deities (and puppets, for that matter.)

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Wait a minute (actually ten).

A cleric of Thor *stopping* a storm? Capable or not is irrelevant, the jig is up. They'll know he's not a worshipper of Thor.

He should be basking in divine glory, being so favored. What's next, cavorting with trees?

And if nobody else, Elan should figure this out, given his genre savvy and familiarity with deities (and puppets, for that matter.)

Brilliant! I never thought of that, you're very clever.

Sadly, I don't think this arc is meant to end so quickly.

[Tannhaeuser]

Lawful? Really? If Thor is Lawful, then Xykon is Good.

Thor may be A-OK with Lawful followers, but he himself is anything but.

Þórr isn't in mythology, but Thor is in D&D. I know, it surprised me, too, when I looked it up. Still, if you can accept a blond Thor, you may as well go with a Lawful one.

[hamishspence]

Deities & Demigods Thor is CG.

It might only be OoTS Thor that's some other alignment - NG or LG.

That, or he's CG but allows LG clerics.

Can't recall if The Giant has ever established Thor's alignment.

[Aquillion]

Wait a minute (actually ten).

A cleric of Thor *stopping* a storm? Capable or not is irrelevant, the jig is up. They'll know he's not a worshipper of Thor.

He should be basking in divine glory, being so favored. What's next, cavorting with trees?

And if nobody else, Elan should figure this out, given his genre savvy and familiarity with deities (and puppets, for that matter.)I doubt it. The other people in the party really want to believe that this is actually Durkon.

Imagine if we didn't know Durkon was a fake. Would the forums be universally siding with Belkar here? Absolutely not. Up until the reveal, people often got very heated in objecting to the possibility that Durkula might not be the real Durkon -- for Durkon's actual friends, who really really want to believe everything's all right, it's going to be even harder to accept.

Belkar can see things more clearly because he's cynical, because he has fewer emotional issues clouding his judgment here, and, I think, because he saw Durkon actually dying and becoming a vampire, so he has a better understanding of what a drastic change it was.

(That said, I hope V has the presence of mind to prepare Protection From Evil, just in case.)

[NihhusHuotAliro]

@everyone saying that Weather Control shouldn't override a God's storm:


"Mistress Hel, I've been reading the description of Control Weather... and I'm not sure it can actually DO that".

"I'm sorry, I didn't hear you just there. What did you say again?".

"•sigh• I said, 'nice thinking, Mistress'".

[Guppy]

Given Belkar's skepticism, I wouldn't be surprised if Durkula decides to try to get rid of him at some point.

[Edhelras]

Pretty much. If Thor is actively sending the storm, a control weather won't stop him.


What you would need was a spell like "Control Thor". That would be epic-level, for sure. I bet the Dwarven clerics have tried to research it. None have succeeded, yet.

[Tannhaeuser]

Þórr isn't in mythology, but Thor is in D&D. I know, it surprised me, too, when I looked it up. Still, if you can accept a blond Thor, you may as well go with a Lawful one.


Deities & Demigods Thor is CG.

It might only be OoTS Thor that's some other alignment - NG or LG.

That, or he's CG but allows LG clerics.

Can't recall if The Giant has ever established Thor's alignment.

Huh...oh, crap, I just realized I mixed up Thor with Tiamat, of all divinities. She should be Chaotic, since she represents the primal Chaos in the mythology, but she's Lawful in D&D. (That was one of the things, by the way, in which the old 'Eighties cartoon actually was more accurate than the game.)

Weird how the mind works...or fails to, in this case. I sit corrected.

[Edhelras]

I like to think his first one was kobolds.

http://i.imgur.com/M2ZKTHL.png

Hah! Good thinking! You mean humanoid: reptilian, then. Would included bonuses vs. lizardfolk and troglodytes as well. But not snakes or frogs (except for possibly frogs that are actually bewitched princes?)

[Fellow]

As a Deity who can grant air domain spells, shouldn't Thor be capable of casting weather control far more often than the High priest?

[Kalmageddon]

So, any cleric with a "standard spell" can stop a direct act from a deity, even when said direct act is tied to their domain.
Either that, or the next strip shows Thor no-selling the spell, with a big "NOPE" coming down from the sky followed by a lightning.

[bladequeen420]

Thor might be neutral good

[Ghost Nappa]

I found it incredibly sneaky of the Giant to give the CE/CN Belkar and the LF Durkon something to actively root together on during this scene. Not because it wasn't obviously coming from a mile away but because Belkar has never had Solidarity with...well most of anyone.

In fact you might say that Durkon is counting on the lesser of two evils.!

That being said, I think Belkar's death is going to be from trying to put HPoH into a stake. The layout of this comic all but makes it clear: the only reason Belkar is not doing it right here and now is because of Roy. If Belkar hadn't just gone and learnt what "restraint" and "team-player" meant, they would have already quarreled.

The Dramatic Irony is actually making me a little annoyed at Roy for thinking he knows what's going on.
At least I could take solace in the fact that this inter-group conflict is the....calm before the storm!

[hamishspence]

Thor might be neutral good

We know at least (from the Index of the Giant's Comments) that OOTS Thor is not the same as D&D Thor.

[Vladier]

When I played Cormyr, tearing of the wave, I was intrigued by Cyricist and Sharrans posing as priests of Mystra. In particular, it seems only right that followers of the Prince of Lies should use these tactics - and I've later used that element in an adventure of my own making. However, one thing that was somewhat disturbing to that scenario was: Why didn't the deity herself strike down or expose the imposters?



That's probably because, no matter how powerful a deity is, they're still limited in number of places they can pay attention to, even though they are also technically multipresent everywhere where their portfolio is concerned and miles around, depending on their divine rank. And since a Cyricist isn't actually Mystran, they probably don't fall under "can see and feel everywhere [Divine rank] miles around followers and holy places" rule as long they're careful and desecrate a shrine and holy symbols. Also, I'm pretty sure that deities of equal or higher rank can interfere with others' sight if their areas are overlapping. And since Mystra, Cyric and Shar are all Greater deities, this should be possible.

On the matter of comic, though, I really like the High Priest of Hel more and more for his dry delivery. May we leave him?

This also probably shouldn't work. Control Weather will work, but Thor can simply conjure another storm (and I'm sure he has such spells in his Domain, so they're At Will and infinite), not to mention that he can also zap HPoH with lightning and break his concentration.

[Ivrytwr]

Hmmm, I still think this is Thor vs. High Priest of Hel possessing Durkon.
Don't think this over yet.

.... Geez.

[Fellow]

The layout of this comic all but makes it clear: the only reason Belkar is not doing it right here and now is because of Roy. If Belkar hadn't just gone and learnt what "restraint" and "team-player" meant, they would have already quarreled.

How about patern recognition? We've all seen what happens when Beklar and his will save try to fight a Vampire eye-to-eye.

[ORione]

Hah! Good thinking! You mean humanoid: reptilian, then. Would included bonuses vs. lizardfolk and troglodytes as well. But not snakes or frogs (except for possibly frogs that are actually bewitched princes?)

Frogs are amphibians, not reptiles.

[M.A.D]

If Thor could directly interfere and expose Durkula's impersonation, then on the same round, he could strike Xykon AND his phylactery with some thunder and be done with it. I think this storm isn't Thor's direct intervention, but rather one of his other clerics in the region's doing.

Also, based on Roy's stance, shouldn't the rope be shown atop of his hand?

[Anarion]

Ah, weather puns. The world's highest form of art.


So, any cleric with a "standard spell" can stop a direct act from a deity, even when said direct act is tied to their domain.
Either that, or the next strip shows Thor no-selling the spell, with a big "NOPE" coming down from the sky followed by a lightning.

Well, yes basically. Deities have always been limited in their ability to directly intervene in the world. That's why they have clerics, and unfortunately, controlling the weather is a power that any deity can grant.

But, we'll see. OotS has shown somewhat more active deities than is standard, so perhaps Thor will make a personal effort to intervene further on this.

[Reddish Mage]

For my own reading, control weather is meant to work here, and to work despite the long cast times and limited area of effect (Rich most likely allowing the spell to behave relativistically, though it is possible the Mechane is moving slowly now). Thor can be interpreted as not creating a miracle, but the weather is simply his working within his portfolio as the northern thunder god. The lightning bolt was just a one-off, perhaps Thor's aim was off, perhaps Thor means to slow Durkula down (and perhaps Thor is prevented by treaty for directly targeting another's priest).

Since the discussions surrounding the power of control weather and what Thor is doing very much ties in with "what will happen next." I predict the Giant is not going to weigh in on this discussion until the comics give us some answers.

[Gift Jeraff]

What if Thor just strikes him directly with lightning?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Considering Roy's remark "might be more complicated than that", I think at least some member of the order are aware that Durkon might no longer be under Thor's jurisdiction. As other said, Durkon already admit being now evil and mentioned as well that he would now need to prepare his spells on dusk instead of dawn. Admitting to a deity change would only be "normal" under such circumstances, or even saying that he's no longer under the charge of a god.

This is a good point. I'm not entirely sure why the High Priest of Hel doesn't want to admit that he is a Cleric of Hel. It could be he is worried that the Order will react very negatively to that news.

[Edhelras]

Frogs are amphibians, not reptiles.

Definitely not frogs, then!

And yes, I slept at school. Slept well.

As for quickened casting of Control Weather (mentioned in a post above) - that would require a spell slot of Level 11 (Control weather is lvl 7, Quicken spel requires a slot 4 lvls higher). I don't think the HPoH is capable of that.

[hamishspence]

As for quickened casting of Control Weather (mentioned in a post above) - that would require a spell slot of Level 11 (Control weather is lvl 7, Quicken spel requires a slot 4 lvls higher). I don't think the HPoH is capable of that.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell


Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.

[Cerussite]

There's one point everyone seems to be missing. Control Weather has but a 2-mile radius. Unless the Order is content with sitting on their hands in that radius until the storm is over, they'll have to ask Vampire!Durkon to pray for Thor's intervention himself to interrupt the storm so they can actually proceed - and then the jig will be up.

[Lheticus]

I have only one reaction:

Um...oops. O_O :smalleek:

[Mastikator]

This comic has come to a strange place when Belkar is the lone sane man.

[chibibar]

Ha, this vamp's got balls! Control weather to divert a divine omen, this'll either work or it'll just piss off Thor more.

Thor may be a bit of a buffoon, but he's definitely not the exemplar of a one trick pony.

I'm going with pissing him off more. Thor may be "fun loving god" or maybe even "irresponsible" but I'm sure he loves his people a lot (at least in the comic) so I don't think a simple control weather is going to divert divine weather ;)

[Jay R]

Imagine if we didn't know Durkon was a fake. Would the forums be universally siding with Belkar here?

Of course not, but what does that prove? The forums didn't universally predict that Durkon would become a vampire, or that Familicide would destroy the Draketooth clan, or any other plot point.

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.

[HandofShadows]

Aw, crap. :smallfrown: Going to have to wait longer for the vamp to be discovered. If it ever is. :smalleek:

[Necris Omega]

Damn it all Roy, we just went through this "discover the person I admire is actually unspeakably evil but I'm too blind/dunderheaded to realize it" schlock with Elan and his skull underwear wearing father - we don't need to retread this all over again. You have a decent INT and WIS score and are devoted to subverting the notion that fighters are stupid idiots - Knock this pandering to drama garbage off and stop pandering to the unholy abomination desecrating the remains of your companion!

[FallenFallcrest]

Honestly some of the best anticlimax I have ever seen. Great work.

[Psyren]

Funny, but it can't work. The spell is powered by Hel but lightening is Thor's domain, therefore Thor wins any divine contest to control the lightning.

It comes down to one thing really - can Thor interfere with the mortal world enough - with none of his own clerics in the vicinity - to override an enemy cleric casting a directly opposing spell?

This entire scene might be a direct sendup of the clerical system in general, and the risks all gods take in choosing to use clerics as divine agents.

[DukeGod]

It comes down to one thing really - can Thor interfere with the mortal world enough - with none of his own clerics in the vicinity - to override an enemy cleric casting a directly opposing spell?

This entire scene might be a direct sendup of the clerical system in general, and the risks all gods take in choosing to use clerics as divine agents.

I'm taking the controversial stance and hoping the Control Weather works. Gods have never meddled directly in the mortal world of OotS, they've only granted and revoked powers. I think that as a rule, any cleric spell trumps a god's effect on the world.

[Kish]

So, any cleric with a "standard spell" can stop a direct act from a deity, even when said direct act is tied to their domain.
Either that, or the next strip shows Thor no-selling the spell, with a big "NOPE" coming down from the sky followed by a lightning.
The gods can't intervene directly, remember? If Thor personally overrides a spell from the High Priest of Hel, he's just begging for the string-pulling that created the Snarl to start again.

[jidasfire]

This went down about how I expected, but was handled with the Giant's usual cleverness and wit.

Thoughts: It seems most likely to me that the HPoH has got this one in the bag. It's probably too early in the story for him to be outed and have to go on the run, especially considering all the balls that are in the air regarding his plans. But now we know that he's up to the task of at least fending off obvious challenges to his credibility, which means Durkon and Belkar will have to work a fair bit harder to expose him. SOP in this comic is that the heroes almost never get the easy way out of their problems (except for Haley's haircut).

As for signs from Thor, I think it is him raising a twelve-alarm fire signal regarding the viper in the party's midst. Unfortunately, my general understanding of D&D gods suggests that they can't act overtly, lest other gods be able to do the same in retaliation, and thus have to work through their clerics. So I suspect this is a strong, but otherwise mundane storm, and since Hel and her priest were almost certainly prepared for this contingency, we can probably consider the sign missed. As to whether Thor will keep sending signs, that is harder to say.

Also, I think despite Belkar's constant suspicions and insults, Durkula is not going to move against him for the time being. He wants everyone convinced that he's Durkon, who always took Belkar's insults quietly. More than that, no one believes Belkar anyway, and him turning up dead or missing would only set off Roy that there's something to be suspicious of. Therefore, he'll probably leave Belkar alone until the halfling actually knows enough to be a true threat.

[Glodart]

The problem is the following: as shown before, Thor ignores the real effects of Control weather for what suits Him. Being the God of weather, even if it is against DND rules, it is still logical that he is the one oh chooses how the spell goes.
It's like trying to out-fight the God of War, to out-magic the God of Magic or to out-smart the God of Cleverness: it is not mortally possible (even if Durkula is technically immortal, being a vampire and all, but NOT THE POINT!)

[Keltest]

The problem is the following: as shown before, Thor ignores the real effects of Control weather for what suits Him. Being the God of weather, even if it is against DND rules, it is still logical that he is the one oh chooses how the spell goes.
It's like trying to out-fight the God of War, to out-magic the God of Magic or to out-smart the God of Cleverness: it is not mortally possible (even if Durkula is technically immortal, being a vampire and all, but NOT THE POINT!)

The problem with that theory is that its not Thor whos providing HPoH's weather control effect. Its Hel. Ultimately it becomes a contest to see who is more determined to control the weather. Domain or not, as HPoH pointed out, its a standard power of all gods.

[FujinAkari]

The gods can't intervene directly, remember? If Thor personally overrides a spell from the High Priest of Hel, he's just begging for the string-pulling that created the Snarl to start again.

Well, the Gods can't intervene directly outside of their own geographical regions. Thor has been shown personally throwing bolts of lightning in the past, and this current storm makes no sense coming from anyone BUT Thor.

[Timy]

The gods can't intervene directly, remember? If Thor personally overrides a spell from the High Priest of Hel, he's just begging for the string-pulling that created the Snarl to start again.


Good thinking !

I think you're right.

Beside, as it have been said multiple times, the HPoH can't be discovered so Soon.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Im referring specifically to the panels where we see the vampire body, with fangs and whatnot. He has been incredibly passive in this arc so far, especially compared to last arc where similar if not more serious situations were popping up left and right. But as far as weve seen this arc, since shouting "THOR'S NUTS!" he's just stood there. He didn't even give Belkar a sarcastic "Get out of my face so I can work, ya silly git!"

What's wrong, do you find this undead guy's mannerisms a bit stiff? Or perhaps cold?

Slightly more seriously, I figure it's because HPOH is pausing for thought, and the more thoughts he can fit into one pause, the better. But speaking from some experience, he'll have issues if he does that too often or for too long, lest people start feeling a bit nervy around him.


A clash of titans coming. Well, clash of gods, anyway. Hel is providing Durkula's spells. This Control Weather will be in direct conflict with Thor's "message". So are we going to see Thor and Hel duke it out in Asgard? I'd like to see that.

I especially would like to see Thor's art upgrade. And Thor in a more serious role than comic relief.

The problem with that theory is that its not Thor whos providing HPoH's weather control effect. Its Hel. Ultimately it becomes a contest to see who is more determined to control the weather. Domain or not, as HPoH pointed out, its a standard power of all gods.

Yes, all of this. Bring on the thunder!


[...] the CE/CN Belkar and the LF Durkon [...]
Lawful Fuzzy?

[Giggling Ghast]

Unlike many of Rich's twists, I kinda saw that one happening.

[SoC175]

Let's see:

1. HPoH's spell not working as it should

2. Cut to Hel and Thor standing before Odin shouting at each other

3. Odin telling Thor he's sorry, but Hel has an agent of the ground and he has not

4. Cut back to the order and calming weather

[daniel_ream]

As a major deity, Thor has literally thousands of points of primal energy. And it only takes one point of primal lacing to make that storm un-frakking-touchable by any mortal magic.

Of course, if Hel's lending primal energy to Durkula, then we've got a full-on god-on-god proxy war happening. As cool as that would be, it would take the focus away from the Order, so I hope that's not where Rich is going with this.

[toapat]

I must admit I've never played D&D with a cleric involved.

Would there be an actual discernable difference between Durkon pleading Thor for weather help & standard weather control? :smallredface:

Assuming Thor is actually using his Salient Divine Abilities which influence weather, yes. God > CoDZilla.

But i think the Storm was left in an escrow account last time Thor did his spell filing. If thats the case then hes not actively influencing his Portfolio, so control weather can stop the storm. Remember, a god only needs to actually bestow spells on their clerics for 1 hour once every 4 months.

[Amphiox]

From the vampire's point of view, even if the spell does not work, it has a 10 minute casting time, and that's 10 minutes he can use to delay/think up some other excuse, so starting to cast it is a good play.

Regarding Thor here, if Thor were completely unconstrained with the lightning, we must ask, why did he hit the Mechane's engine? Why not just fry the HPoH directly?

I suspect that Thor IS constrained somehow. Perhaps there are protocols between him and all the other Northern Gods with respect to what they can and cannot do to interfere with one another's clerics. In this case, Control Weather might work.

Even if it works, though, that doesn't mean Thor can't continue to try other means. Imagine if Control Weather does work, the storm dissipates, and then, suddenly, ANOTHER bolt of lightning comes down on the Mechane from a clear blue sky?

Or, what if the storm was actually natural, but Thor put an unnatural storm into a normal storm, to create his special lightning bolt, in which case, when the HPoH tries to use Control Weather to remove the unnatural weather, it succeeds, leaving behind the NORMAL storm, making it look like the spell didn't work? (This assumes that Thor truly is constrained by some understanding with Hel from just making the storm unremovable, and it also assumes Thor would be clever enough to think up a trick like this to get around that constraint...)

[Lheticus]

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.

OH I am so sigging this.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I figured it wouldn't be so easy, although I hoped.

[DaggerPen]

Huh, and I was so sure they'd be forced to land because the HPOH couldn't override Thor's wrath. Guess not!

[rman]

I would expect any clerical spell to involve the invokaction of the deity's name. And I would suspect it would be strange for the spell not to invoke the deity.

Please great $DEITY grant your power to ....

It's not like :
Geater Heal - verbal component "get up you lazy bones, twas but a scratch"
More Like :
Greater Heal - verbal component "In the name of $DEITY be healed and ready to work the will of $DEITY" or "Blessed $DEITY, grant your power to heal my friend Bob, who heathen thou he may be, aids me in fullfilling your will".

[Warren Dew]

Belkar can see things more clearly because he's cynical, because he has fewer emotional issues clouding his judgment here, and, I think, because he saw Durkon actually dying and becoming a vampire, so he has a better understanding of what a drastic change it was.
Also because Durkon and Belkar have always despised one another, so even if Belkar is wrong and it's really Durkon, staking him is still a net plus from Belkar's standpoint.

[Haluesen]

I don't get why so many of you are sooooo sure that HPoH is gonna be outed so soon or that Thor is gonna insta-override him or anything like that. :smallconfused: The Giant has made it pretty clear that the Durkon becoming a vampire subplot has been in the making for quite a few years. Do you really all think it will end so quickly? Kinda naive. No clue how exactly, but HPoH will pull through this, though I kinda would like to see Thor try again later in the story.



Of course not, but what does that prove? The forums didn't universally predict that Durkon would become a vampire, or that Familicide would destroy the Draketooth clan, or any other plot point.

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.

I very much want to sig that. :smallbiggrin: It fits with the other quote I have so well.


OH I am so sigging this.

Aww you beat me to it. :smallfrown: You two still don't mind if I sig it do you? I always ask politely. :smallsmile:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

@everyone saying that Weather Control shouldn't override a God's storm:


"Mistress Hel, I've been reading the description of Control Weather... and I'm not sure it can actually DO that".

"I'm sorry, I didn't hear you just there. What did you say again?".

"•sigh• I said, 'nice thinking, Mistress'".
Repeating because nobody noticed it the first time.

[Terrador]

I'm hoping to Thor that this won't work, but I sadly suspect it will.

We're gonna have a lot more time to learn to hate HPoH before his cover gets blown.

[Ainamacar]

I think the assumption that Thor is directly behind the weather is suspect. The fact that the lightning went around the lightning rod does suggest a will is behind the storm, but not whose will. The fact they crossed into Northern territory only means a different set of deities hold sway, but not which deity is acting here. Although this sort of stuff is in Thor's wheelhouse, Thor is almost certainly not the only one with the power to actually perform it. We certainly haven't seen Thor in the heavens directing things!

If only there were some agent that had something to gain by faking (and then calming) "Thor's" wrath... Oh, Hel! It would be perfect misdirection because all the signs are compatible with Thor, and without evidence that someone else might have something to gain there isn't much reason to suspect another cause. Done well this helps the order bottle up any misgivings about what is really going on with Durkula.

Belkar suspects something is up, but that it would be the master plan of an evil deity is not on his radar. Durkula calming the storm won't really assuage Belkar's suspicions, but it will make it harder to convince the others. Roy is aware that things are different, but evil deity's master plan is not on his radar either. Besides, so far Durkula has been a team player and that's just what Roy wants right now (and HPoH knows it). Durkon is obviously aware he's not driving his body any more, but does he know anything about Hel's master plan, or even direct involvement? We've seen no evidence of it, and I can't imagine why we wouldn't have a comic (or 3) about Durkon learning the true depths of what is going on. So if Durkon is unaware of Hel's interest even he has no obvious reason to see that anyone else has something to gain by faking Thor's wrath.

What about HPoH himself, who says "Crap" (to Durkon) when attention is directed his way? It's possible HPoH did not know it would happen, but that wouldn't stop Hel (who knows her priest has the tools to handle the situation). Or maybe HPoH did know, but is simply holding his cards close to his chest in front of Durkon. Or maybe he knew, but still said "Crap" honestly because that kind of direct attention is uncomfortable, planned or not.

I think we should be careful before we start making exactly the assumptions all the characters are making, particularly since we have information none of the characters have.

[Emperordaniel]

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.

I disagree with this statement!

[Keltest]

I disagree with this statement!

Yeah, but you think they sky is blue. What do you know?

[Gift Jeraff]

Also because Durkon and Belkar have always despised one another, so even if Belkar is wrong and it's really Durkon, staking him is still a net plus from Belkar's standpoint.

When did Belkar ever "despise" Durkon? Their relationship was generally of mutual dislike, but to describe it as despisal? At worst they physically harmed each other (or let the other get harmed, in Durkon's case), but it was nothing at all serious for high level adventurers. At best Belkar would compliment Durkon's fighting skills. Oh and, you know, the small matter of Durkon sacrificing his life to save Belkar's.

[Vovix]

:roy:Just out of curiosity, do you get XP for killing this dramatic moment?

[Haluesen]

Repeating because nobody noticed it the first time.

I did indeed notice, and I am sorry for not commenting on it. It was a good point. :smallamused: I hope it works like that.


When did Belkar ever "despise" Durkon? Their relationship was generally of mutual dislike, but to describe it as despisal? At worst they physically harmed each other (or let the other get harmed, in Durkon's case), but it was nothing at all serious for high level adventurers. At best Belkar would compliment Durkon's fighting skills. Oh and, you know, the small matter of Durkon sacrificing his life to save Belkar's.

I gotta second this. Belkar really did seem affected by Durkon's sacrificing himself like that. And Belkar's never been as aggressive toward Durkon as he has V or Roy. Despise might be a little much. Though he certainly seems to despise HPoH...

[GooeyChewie]

I believe the spell will work, not from any rules standpoint, but because Roy needs to keep believing the vampire is Durkon for the narrative. I think Roy will later realize he missed a big clue here. Even if Control Weather works, this reaction is totally out of character for Durkon. Remember, this is the dwarf who surrendered to a complete stranger (they didn't know Miko at the time) because it happened to be raining when they fought her.

[Kish]

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.
The sun doesn't rise anywhere. It stays still and the world revolves around it. *ducks*

[Fellow]

The sun doesn't rise anywhere. It stays still and the world revolves around it. *ducks*
But if the world is doughnut shaped like that, shouldn't the sun just stay up from our perspective?

[ORione]

The sun doesn't rise anywhere. It stays still and the world revolves around it. *ducks*

Where in the rules does it say that?

[Tannhaeuser]

The sun doesn't rise anywhere. It stays still and the world revolves around it. *ducks*

Ye Gods, another one of those Round-earthers.

[Burner28]

So what's the major debate this strip?

[pendell]

*Sigh* it is as I feared. Watching Roy's expression [great artwork, by the way]. It is clear that he wants to believe Durkula, and every word out of Belkar's mouth that is not proven beyond any possible doubt only reinforces his existing bias.

At this rate, there is no way for Durkula to be unmasked until he betrays the party in such a horrific way that Roy has no choice but to believe his eyes.

In a way, this mirrors the early encounter with the linear guild in book 3. Nale disguised himself as Elan. Belkar tumbled to this before anyone else, but, again, he was unable to do anything about it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

At this rate, there is no way for Durkula to be unmasked until he betrays the party in such a horrific way that Roy has no choice but to believe his eyes.

Something like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html

but for Roy instead of Elan.

[Keltest]

So what's the major debate this strip?

Whether or not Control Weather would be enough to stop the storm. As a subset, whether or not Thor is the cause of the storm and/or what method he used.

[pendell]

Something like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html

but for Roy instead of Elan.

Precisely.

And, yes, I suspect this to work completely, because the alternative is Durkula's immediate destruction, and there's no way the Giant is going to summarily dispose of a story point he's spent six books building up to, not in ten pages.

That only happens in real life. Which is why real war is such poor storytelling material. The bullet marked 'to whom it may concern' doesn't CARE whether your character arc is finished or not, or how long it's been in the making, or whether your death derives from the choices you made. It just happens, without any human rhyme or reason.

The setting rules are furniture. Rich tells the story he wants to tell, and if the rules conflict with the story, he's going to throw the rules overboard. The rules will never be allowed to stand in the way of the story Rich is trying to tell.

He may, if he's inclined, spare two panels explained why what happened works in OOTSworld when it probably wouldn't in standard D&D, especially not on that timescale. But I think we also have to give a point for courtesy for the audience -- do we REALLY want him to do nothing but draw panel after panel of dialog or something else similarly boring while waiting for control weather to take effect? Does it actually HURT the story he's trying to tell by NOT stretching it out to be technically accurate? Or does it simply save everyone time & boredom?

He MAY spare some panels to explain, but I wouldn't hold it against him if he didn't. If rules lawyers aren't willing to accept the initial events at first sight, they're probably not going to be mollified by an explanation which will probably make neither sense in game or in real world climatology. It might be far better to leave it unexplained and let US fill in the blanks.

The thing is ... because OOTS is a D&D parody, it naturally attracts hyperintelligent people who are used to optimizing their characters. Such people often analyze the smallest minutiae of rules adherence, because this is what keeps them alive in THEIR games. And to them, any deviation from standard D&D that isn't logically and clearly explained is like fingernails on a chalkboard. If this were a real game and not a story, the players would be flipping tables, walking out, and calling DM Shenanigans if a DMPC should suddenly start ignoring the rules. This matters a LOT to players between DM Shenanigans get them killed. But in this case there are no players -- the only people hurt are the in-game characters, and Rich is running them all.

Besides, I think ordinary readers here for the story won't care about it, and the additional panels are just blahblahblahNOTCARING.

I think that's it -- Rich has made it clear that OOTS is story-driven before it is a parody of D&D. If you like the story, you can forgive all manner of sins both against the rules and against artwork. If you DON'T like the story, any one of those things is a dealbreaker.

So I think it likely that the only real long-term survival strategy for a fan of OOTS is to care about the story first, the characters second, and be willing to tolerate or wink at the paper-thin setting, the two-dimensional artwork, the 'artistic license' by which rules are sometimes addressed, and the constant breaking of the fourth wall. If a person really enjoys the story and the humor, they can push through these things. If the other elements are so distracting they can't enjoy it -- well, there are MANY other webcomics out there, and some are worth reading.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Doug Lampert]

Pretty much. If Thor is actively sending the storm, a control weather won't stop him.

And anyway, Belkar won't be fooled so easily, you monster! :smallcool:

Thor can send again, if he's still sober and paying attention in 10 minutes. But the Control Weather spell doesn't involve any sort of caster level check, if two are in conflict then the later spell should simply overwrite the earlier spell for the duration of the second cast spell (since Control Weather will explicitly remove or override other non-natural weather).

Basically, there's no reason HPoH's spell shouldn't work unless Thor actively counters it or Thor simply recasts after the HPoH is done.

Now this should be an "at-will" power for Thor, so assuming that he's ALLOWED to intervene directly on this scale he can keep this up all day while the HPoH can't, and Thor can presumably directly counter the HPoH's spell, but we as yet have no evidence that Thor is actually paying all that much attention, some attention yes, but how much?

Edited to add: And as someone else pointed out, the whole thing could be a setup by Hel without Thor being involved at all. The evidence that Thor will take additional direct action is really pretty lacking.

Nor do we have any evidence at all that Thor is allowed to start a war with another god because that god's clerics are casting a spell he doesn't like, in fact such an ability would go directly against the origin story of this universe which has the god's agreeing to be mostly "hand's off" except for acting through their clerics.


So... why does HTOH seem to think that Thor will give a god's damn about Control Weather? This is a direct manifestation and assault by Thor...

You can identify a direct manifestation and assault by Thor by the giant guy with a big hammer and the SPLAT noise when the hammer hits a target. This is most definitely NOT a direct manifestation and assault by Thor, it is Thor sending an omen. Thor himself is nowhere in the area as far as we've seen.

Nor are we likely to see a direct manifestation of Thor, because the gods of the OoTS world have agreed not to stomp on each other's followers, which is also why a control weather spell will work fine for one of Hel's followers.

[gerryq]

"You change the weather in the local area. It takes 10 minutes to cast the spell and an additional 10 minutes for the effects to manifest.
[...]
A druid casting this spell doubles the duration and affects a circle with a 3-mile radius."

So presumably, it works for 1.5 miles radius normally. How fast is the airship going?

It seems Durkula may have to force an immediate stop, or his ruse will quickly be found out.

[Ave]

I wonder if this actually will work

If it was Thor's direct action, then no way it would work.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What if Thor just strikes him directly with lightning?

Nothing. Undead are immune to electrical damage.

[hamishspence]

Actually that's just Liches. Ordinary undead don't have so many immunities.

Vampires do have cold and electricity resistance - but not immunity.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Giant has made it pretty clear that the Durkon becoming a vampire subplot has been in the making for quite a few years. Do you really all think it will end so quickly?
The Giant came up with th idea before he cane up with Xykon, actually. Also, just because he is exposed doesn't mean his subplot has ended.


The sun doesn't rise anywhere. It stays still and the world revolves around it. *ducks*
This is where I wish the posts had "like" buttons.

[zimmerwald1915]

The sun doesn't rise anywhere. It stays still and the world revolves around it. *ducks*
The day is caused by the world's rotation, not revolution. If the world were tidally locked the rotational period would be a year long, but it's not.

Oh, and the sun doesn't remain still. It and each of its planets orbit around their common centers of mass. It and the center of the galaxy orbit around their common center of mass. The galaxy and the galactic cluster orbit around their common center of mass, etc. etc.

[Cerlis]

looks like Durkula just owned Belkar and Durkon to Hel and back with his divine superpowers.

[137beth]

Well, it looks like High Priest of Hel is going to have to prepare at least one Control Weather from now on. Can't be good for him coming out of his highest level spell slots.
More storms coming up?

[Cerlis]

"You change the weather in the local area. It takes 10 minutes to cast the spell and an additional 10 minutes for the effects to manifest.
[...]
A druid casting this spell doubles the duration and affects a circle with a 3-mile radius."

So presumably, it works for 1.5 miles radius normally. How fast is the airship going?

It seems Durkula may have to force an immediate stop, or his ruse will quickly be found out.

what ruse? He said out loud "Control weather"

They wanted him to do something about the weather and he is. Its not like he's disintegrating the water vapor and wind in a 1.5 mile radius.

[Bulldog Psion]

*Sigh* it is as I feared. Watching Roy's expression [great artwork, by the way]. It is clear that he wants to believe Durkula, and every word out of Belkar's mouth that is not proven beyond any possible doubt only reinforces his existing bias.

At this rate, there is no way for Durkula to be unmasked until he betrays the party in such a horrific way that Roy has no choice but to believe his eyes.

In a way, this mirrors the early encounter with the linear guild in book 3. Nale disguised himself as Elan. Belkar tumbled to this before anyone else, but, again, he was unable to do anything about it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

There is a slight (note that I say slight) tragic hint about Belkar at the moment. The party's view of him, and in particular Roy's view, are more and more out of sync with the reality. Roy views him as a sneering, lying, utterly untrustworthy punk, whereas Belkar has actually become a moderately solid member of the party (note that I'm not saying he's good; he's still evil, it's just that he's not as evil, and he has matured quite a bit also).

However, at this point, Belkar pointing out the truth makes Roy more likely to believe that it's a lie instead, simply because Belkar endorsed it as the truth. The interesting thing is that Belkar has never been much of a liar; he's always worn his heart, dark as it is, upon his sleeve. But Roy's hatred is causing him to perceive a Belkar who doesn't actually exist.

And this time, that knee-jerk, irrational image that Roy has is going to cost them dearly, methinks. :smallfrown:

Great writing, in short. :smallcool:

[Angelalex242]

I'm on the 'this shouldn't work' side of this.

See, the truth is, Thor and Hel both have agents on the ground, since the soul of real Durkon is still trapped in the HPOH. At that point, it's a contest of divine ranks, and Thor's got way more of those then Hel does. He can block Hel's remote sensing of the area through Durkon's soul because his Divine Rank 18 is simply that much higher.

Once Hel's influence is kicked out, making HPOH look like the fraud he is is trivial.

[Kaulguard]

Looks like Roy is gonna back Durkula, come Hel or high water.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

At that point, it's a contest of divine ranks, and Thor's got way more of those then Hel does.
Remember that the Thor here is not D&D Thor.

[Seward]

Well, we still don't know how this will play out.

Durkula can change the weather yeah. But as we've seen, the lightning bolt wasn't "weather" in the normal sense as it bypassed lightning rod etc.

Also I'm pretty sure Thor can control weather at will, and D only has so many 7+ level spell slots with it prepared. He could just undo whatever D does and turn the weather up again, if he hasn't wandered off and gotten drunk or something.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Looks like Roy is gonna back Durkula, come Hel or high water.

1) Awesome puns.
2) At this rate... both
3) I'm surprised Roy is ignoring Belkar's instincts... He knows Belkar is evil, Belkar is an expert on Evil, if Belkar says Durkon isn't really Durkon and Durkula has admitted he is now Evil aligned, Roy should be deferring to Belkar's expertise on Evil. This is very low wisdom, low intelligence of Roy... Wait? Could Sabine have replaced Roy? Has Hel made a deal with the IFCC?
4) Roy is so strong he can walk around with the rope and keep it at just the right level with so little effort.
5) I agree with many others, basic cleric spell or not, Thor's authority should trump it, and the very act of a High Cleric of Hel trying to counteract his energies should make everything worse, not better. Which means either Durkula is outed as an enemy monster who wants to destroy the crew, or Durkula is outed as an enemy monster who wants to destroy the Order, either way he better come clean and give Durkon back control, or risk Hel's complete violation of Asgardian Law (she has dominion over the cowardly fallen, Durkon didn't die of a disease, he died of blood loss to a foe in combat, his soul is still inside the body, therefore he is not fair game for Hel. If his soul had been allowed to go to Valhalla and the High Preist of Hel had taken over with no access to Durkon's memories, then Hel would be okay, but since she didn't, she forfeits her powers and the powers of all who call on her for power. Durkula should have no magic at all.)

[MilesBeyond]

I think the problem with a lot of guesses being thrown around is that most of them (e.g. Someone surmising from Durkon's actions that he's no longer a servant of Thor) would require someone in the Order to make a successful Knowledge: Religion check - which I'm not too optimistic about.


Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that the party will realize that Durkon isn't himself, he'll escape, and they'll pursue him to the Dwarvern Lands, where he's brought about Dwarfageddon.

Why?

Mostly because, as has been pointed out before, we literally just did the whole "He's evil but the good guy cares about him too much to accept it!" schtick. Doing that again would be awful. And staking Durkula this early is also probably out of the question. From a narrative perspective, that doesn't leave many options left.

[Amphiox]

So what's the major debate this strip?

Whether Weather Control will control this weather...

[Jay R]

OH I am so sigging this.

Thank you.


Aww you beat me to it. :smallfrown: You two still don't mind if I sig it do you? I always ask politely. :smallsmile:

Feel free. I figure that I can control who uses my words. Or I can post them to the Internet. I don't see how I could logically expect to do both.

[Jay R]

So what's the major debate this strip?

Once again, people are trying to find a clever way for Rich to use the D&D rules to derail the author's intended plotline.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Eloi]

My prediction is that the Mechane will crash-land, and Durkula will be hit directly by an unamused Thor before his Weather Control spell can take effect.

[Dovetail]

Roy doesn't want to believe Durkon isn't really himself, so he doesn't. Confirmation bias?

I'm interested in seeing what Belkar does next. He's gotten smarter so I'm inclined to think he'll just stalk off with a "you trust too easily, moron" instead of attacking not-Durkon in a fit of rage.

I hope he's got enough self-preservation for that, but if he forgoes self-preservation and dies to save other people from not-Durkon that'll be an interesting instance of character development for him.

It'll also give Roy quite the kick in the posterior if Belkar dies this way. Maybe not immediately, but once he finds out the truth about his not-friend.

[John Coake]

I still say Thor is playing Blind Drunken Darts: Lightning Bolt Edition(TM) again.

[VoxRationis]

4) Roy is so strong he can walk around with the rope and keep it at just the right level with so little effort.


Actually, Roy's strength is irrelevant to whether he can moor that rope properly. His weight is the relevant factor, so long as he has the required grip strength to grab the rope and prevent it from slipping out of his hands. Depending on the lift strength of the balloon, what should be happening is that Roy should be dangling from the rope a few feet off the deck of the Mechane. Unless Roy has some way of affixing his feet to the surface he is on, all his pulling force can do is move him and the balloon closer together.
Roy is a large, muscular fellow in full plate (I assume it's full plate), so he probably weighs around 250 pounds or so, but that's almost negligible compared to the lifting force he's having to deal with (keep in mind that that rope is supposed to hold up a few tons of ship).

[Keltest]

Actually, Roy's strength is irrelevant to whether he can moor that rope properly. His weight is the relevant factor, so long as he has the required grip strength to grab the rope and prevent it from slipping out of his hands. Depending on the lift strength of the balloon, what should be happening is that Roy should be dangling from the rope a few feet off the deck of the Mechane. Unless Roy has some way of affixing his feet to the surface he is on, all his pulling force can do is move him and the balloon closer together.
Roy is a large, muscular fellow in full plate (I assume it's full plate), so he probably weighs around 250 pounds or so, but that's almost negligible compared to the lifting force he's having to deal with (keep in mind that that rope is supposed to hold up a few tons of ship).

Durkon is wearing Full Plate. Roy until recently has seemed more like his is a breastplate. At the very least, Its been implied (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html) a few times that Roy is wearing a different type of armor that Durkon. Admittedly, its a (very) early strip, but weve seen a couple mentions of Durkon's armor since then.

Also, as the team fighter with Titan like strength, he could easily be holding all the random gear that the party uses, like tents, 10 foot poles, etc...

[canpinter]

I think roy already knows HPoH is a fake and is just pretending so he can figure out its plan. he has not told belkar because roy doesn't think he can keep it a secret.

[VoxRationis]

He could carry all that stuff, but Haley has bags of holding that can accommodate entire wagons, if I remember correctly, so why would he?
It's a minor point anyway. Not worth really talking much about.

[Keltest]

I think roy already knows HPoH is a fake and is just pretending so he can figure out its plan. he has not told belkar because roy doesn't think he can keep it a secret.

That seems unlikely. Belkar Is going after HPoH anyway.

[Doug Lampert]

Once again, people are trying to find a clever way for Rich to use the D&D rules to derail the author's intended plotline.

Great line.

And true, there is NOTHING in D&D rules that says Control Weather will not work here. NOTHING. There are D&D rules that say that Thor can override the normal rules if he wants to, but that's not because Control Weather doesn't work, it's because Thor actively makes it not work.

People arguing divine ranks and who can override who are missing that (a) Thor will not do so IN STORY LOGIC unless doing so doesn't cause the sort of problems that caused the snarl in the first place, which is almost guaranteed to not be true, and (b) Thor will not do so in DOYLIST logic, unless Rich wants him too, and Rich has about a dozen prepositioned excuses to let him have Thor not do anything more. (Thor is drunk, gets distracted, is too busy pawing Sif, is arguing with Loki over something unrelated, is unable to act because they've agreed not to act.)

On the other side the HPoH is casting a spell within the normal rules of the world and just wants it to act as normal and acting through agents is how gods act in TOotS world, it is very specifically how they act when they have a conflict. NOT some sort of "my divine rank is higher than yours" pissing contest. That way lies the snarl mark II.

Now if Rich WANTS the Control Weather to fail, he can show Thor saying "Nope". But there's absolutely nothing in the rules of D&D or of the TOotS verse that says Control Weather can't work or that for it to work is somehow wrong by the rules. In fact, what we know about the rules of the universe would imply that it should work in the very unlikely event that Rich has no preference and "let's the rules decide".

[Doug Lampert]

He could carry all that stuff, but Haley has bags of holding that can accommodate entire wagons, if I remember correctly, so why would he?
It's a minor point anyway. Not worth really talking much about.

Haley's bags of holding have all been full every time they've been shown or referenced except when the Dungeon of Durkon treasure is put in them (which fills them). At least once the party had a large amount of treasure blown up because they couldn't fit all of it into Haley's bags, you may remember Haley having a bit of a speech impediment, that was after she'd SAVED all the treasure in every bag of holding plus one other large bag, but the rest wouldn't fit.

Roy is carrying lots of crap. Seriously, if you're going to argue bags of holding then at least remember that the last time we got a capacity check on them it left a large bag of treasure which WOULD NOT FIT. That's what Roy's carrying, all the crap that will not fit.

[Angelalex242]

I start wondering just how much they can afford to worry about a 2nd snarl when the first is one gate away from being released.

The gods in general might be pulling out all the stops to protect the last gate, considering original snarl getting out is as bad or worse to creating a new one.

[MilesBeyond]

My prediction is that the Mechane will crash-land, and Durkula will be hit directly by an unamused Thor before his Weather Control spell can take effect.

I don't know about that. I feel like if it was kosher to directly smite the priests of other gods - even if they used to serve you - there'd be a lot less clerics wandering around.

This would be my guess as to why the lightning bolts have been hitting the Mechane, rather than Durk himself.

Like I said in the last thread, this seems like a classic "Jonah and the whale" story.

[WindStruck]

Nice I like the title reference to high pressure. Because high pressure generally means good weather. :smallbiggrin:

[Angelalex242]

Here's a clever idea.

Thor can say, "I was attempting to smite Durkon, but I hit Durkula instead. Darn my bad aim."

The gods DO have the right to zap their own followers, as noted by the Fallen Paladin Miko.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Here's a clever idea.

Thor can say, "I was attempting to smite Durkon, but I hit Durkula instead. Darn my bad aim."

The gods DO have the right to zap their own followers, as noted by the Fallen Paladin Miko.

They weren't really smiting her though; they were just removing her powers. I don't think she was actually damaged.

[With a box]

Here's a clever idea.

Thor can say, "I was attempting to smite Durkon, but I hit Durkula instead. Darn my bad aim."

The gods DO have the right to zap their own followers, as noted by the Fallen Paladin Miko.
Or just cover the entire sea around the macina with storm and make Durkula have to cast control wether every 2mile
It will make order cannot arrive the gate at time and they will think about abandon durkula

[Cloud]

I'm kind of surprised at all the people that didn't predict the spell or think it won't work, or that Thor will just intervene again. While I imagine Thor will keep doing his best to help Durkon, the Gods aren't allowed to interfere with the world, that's why they have Clerics at all. I imagine Thor is using some loop-hole with his domains and responsibilities to make a storm, just "perfectly co-incidentally" timed so it hits when the airship is present, and sure, why not, it can be a powerful storm with freakish lightning, but I'm certain there are limits to what Thor can and can't do without a cleric without it being interfering, and he's probably already running against that limit with lightning that ignores lightning rods.

So yeah...Thor is probably behind the storm (perhaps he's responsible for all storms in northern lands for example, he's just normally more random in spreading them around) in that he's manipulating and nudging natural forces that are part of the world to cause it because of his domains, but I imagine he's not using overt salient abilities and he can't just make a storm randomly and over and over again.

[skim172]

Roy doesn't want to believe Durkon isn't really himself, so he doesn't. Confirmation bias?

I'm interested in seeing what Belkar does next. He's gotten smarter so I'm inclined to think he'll just stalk off with a "you trust too easily, moron" instead of attacking not-Durkon in a fit of rage.

I hope he's got enough self-preservation for that, but if he forgoes self-preservation and dies to save other people from not-Durkon that'll be an interesting instance of character development for him.

It'll also give Roy quite the kick in the posterior if Belkar dies this way. Maybe not immediately, but once he finds out the truth about his not-friend.

Yep, confirmation bias. People believe what they want to believe - especially if the alternative is that your friend died horribly, his soul is imprisoned by dark forces, and his possessed body is walking about in a hideous mockery of everything your friend truly believed in - and you've totally been letting it happen. And that one guy you absolutely hate and detest spending time with turns out to be have been right all along. Gods, that would just suck so hard.

Or - that jerk is wrong, your friend is totally alive, only now he's also a badass vampire so he's totally awesome and kewl.

Which would you want to believe?


Belkar probably finds it a lot harder to swallow because he actually witnessed Durkon dying firsthand. That's a considerable psychological hurdle to overcome when trying accept that someone's soul and very essence was NOT violated and defiled by unholiest of forces.

[BriarHobbit]

Well, if you want to dig into game mechanics, having a Control Weather spell racked and loaded provides no indication of being in good standing with the God of Thunder. It would be interesting to see how directly Thor is taking a hand in this and what he is (or is not) pondering.

Shame the mystical theorist, V, is not about.

[abcd_z]

Perhaps Durkula was so confident in his spellcasting because Thor's an idiot.

Remember the last time Durkon was confident Thor caused a storm for a reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)? Who's to say it's not the same here?

Of course, that still doesn't explain why Durkula said "crap" at the end of last comic.

[Angelalex242]

Let's have some faith in the Thunderer, here.

He doesn't have THAT many high level clerics. Durkon was one of the best clerics he had, probably among the top 5 worldwide. When you get that high up on the totem pole, the god's going to start paying attention to you personally. And when his mortal enemy has said high priest turned into a vampire, preventing his soul from going to Valhalla...well, Thor just might be taking it kind of personally.

It's said he doesn't approve of people taking things from him. Why, the last time some giants took Mjolnir...well, some crossdressing and the serious bashing of giant heads took place. Not pretty at all.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

"
A druid casting this spell doubles the duration and affects a circle with a 3-mile radius."
So presumably, it works for 1.5 miles radius normally. How fast is the airship going?
It seems Durkula may have to force an immediate stop, or his ruse will quickly be found out.
No, normal radius is two miles. Druids double the duration but only half again the radius. And the thing about Control Weather is the phrasing is vague enough that it's possible the radius moves with the caster, in which case they can just keep on cruising in a bubble of calmed storm.

It has a duration and during the duration the caster can keep making changes to the weather in it's area and that area is 'a 2 mile radius centered on the caster' which suggests but does not state outright that it's mobile.

[Ramien]

I'd just like to nominate 'Lurky Corpsewhiskers' as the new 'official' forum name for the HPoH/Durkula. Once again, Belkar has shown us the way to a better, brighter future through his choosing of the appropriate name.

[jamiah93]

Ignoring the mechanical limitations of Control Weather, I believe Durkula will achieve exactly what he needs to by using the spell.

*Speculation ahead*
The deities of this story seem to be fairly limited in how much they can directly interfere with the mortal plane. Not for lack of power, but most likely due to rules they agreed to adhere to when they made the world. Thats why they made clerics, to act as their representatives on earth. If Thor really wanted to mess Durkula up, he could have just Gated in a couple dozen planetars to beat the undead stuffing out of him instead of just causing meteorological phenomena that people would look to his supposed worshiper to interpret. Even during the Azure City war, Tiger opposed Thor for "bending the rules" and trying to grant Durkon a faster running speed(453).

*Unadulterated speculation ahead*
Though it could be possible that Thor WANTS Durkula to get rid of the storm using magic rather than by using more mundane methods such as the ships Adad worshiper(which Thor would have ignored coming from Durkula). The last storm that Thor sent upon the OOTS to announce Mikos arrival, Durkon took time to analyze the situation and interpret the reasoning behind the storm until it seemingly went away on its own. Durkula seems to just "cheat" and try to sweep it under the rug with high-level magic. Perhaps this change in action will raise suspicions amongst the Order that Durkon isn't who he says he is.

[Sharp-kun]

So what if Durkula fails?

"Ach, sorry guys, Thor seems to be on a bit of a rampage today. Must be those trees below us. Praise Thor for finally taking the initiative and striking down the enemies of my people!"

It's not a hard thing to bluff, especially if he appears to make an effort.

[Seward]

It's harder to bluff in that way when you are only a few days old. Also Durkon wasn't really good at any social skills, so mining his memories will be of limited use, racial bonuses to bluff notwithstanding. I don't think dwarves really do much in the way of bluffing if they're not, say, clerics of Loki.

Also...over the ocean. No trees :)

Actually what would please me greatly is Haley getting some kind of sign from Thor. There HAS to be some consequence to pretending to be a follower of Thor now that they're back in Western lands...it falls under what would be funniest anyway...

[Shining Wrath]

And now we wait for 10 minutes to see what happens. Did Thor actually send this storm? Is he paying attention? How is he going to respond to his former cleric modifying his storm if he is?

Also, I seem to recall other occasions when a storm was inconvenient and Durkon didn't cast Control Weather. Instead, he interpreted the storm as a message from Thor.


It was to be expected that the matter couldn't be solved so quickly into the new book, but I personally find it improbable; Thor should have a much higher caster level for his control weather-type effect and would simply overpower anything the faux-Durkon could throw at the storm. Even the direct intervention of Hel, arguably, might not work, because the storm is Thor's domain specifically.

Thor casts as a cleric of level 10 + his deity level; assuming he's a greater deity, at least 26, probably 30.

Furthermore, Control Weather doesn't allow for aiming thunderbolts by a normal cleric or even a druid. If Thor "cast" this storm, it's not Control Weather, but something of higher level. If this comes down to HPoH versus Thor HPoH ought to have NO effect. In fact, a Greater Deity acting within his domain probably overpowers every cleric on the planet plus another Greater Deity acting outside her domain (e.g., Hel). Greater Deities are pretty damn great.


For some reason, I would imagine if cleric managed to make a storm sent by a god to go away, the god would just have another storm pop up just as fast as the first one.

Per SRD a deity can cast a domain spell at-will.
This storm isn't Control Weather, though, since that doesn't allow for aimed lightning bolts.

I hereby predict that the HPoH just stepped in it, big time. He's pitting a level 7 spell cast by a level 15-ish cleric (not counting +8 LA for vampire) against a level unknown but higher than 7 home-brew spell cast by a greater deity within his portfolio. If you treat this as a sort of Dispel Magic situation, the DC is 11 plus Thor's caster level of at least 26, requiring HPoH to roll > 20 ... ain't happening unless Hel provides both a natural 20 and a boost to HPoH's caster level.

[Psyren]

I'm taking the controversial stance and hoping the Control Weather works. Gods have never meddled directly in the mortal world of OotS, they've only granted and revoked powers. I think that as a rule, any cleric spell trumps a god's effect on the world.

Yeah, I'm guessing it will work too. The purpose of this scene is to show us that Durkon is still struggling in there, and that Belkar of all people is still suspicious.


Something like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html

but for Roy instead of Elan.

Honestly I doubt it. If the Giant really wanted to shock us like this, he'd have left Durkula's true nature ambiguous, just as we saw with Tarquin up to the linked point. Part of what made that scene so impactful is that many of us were rationalizing T's behavior right along with Elan.

My guess is that Roy will realize the truth but keep it to himself, revealing his knowledge at a dramatic moment to allow Durkon to step in somehow and thwart the worst of Hel's plans. That or he will annihilate Darkon and say goodbye to his friend.

[MilesBeyond]

So what if Durkula fails?

"Ach, sorry guys, Thor seems to be on a bit of a rampage today. Must be those trees below us. Praise Thor for finally taking the initiative and striking down the enemies of my people!"

It's not a hard thing to bluff, especially if he appears to make an effort.

If I were Durkula, I don't know if I'd be comfortable pitting my Bluff check against Haley's Sense Motive check, heh.

That being said, I think that could be what happens. Durkula slips up in different ways here and there until eventually the whole Order aside from Roy is suspicious.

I just hope they don't take too long with it, because the whole "Someone is evil but the hero is too blinded by affection to notice" thing? We literally just did that. And sure, I enjoyed it, but I don't want to see it done again so soon. Plus Elan's an idiot, so his ignorance of Tarquin's evil was funny, endearing, and strangely enough, vaguely heartwarming in places. Roy's actually smart, and while I think there's a lot of opportunity for growth and depth here, if the deception goes on for very long it would just get frustrating.

[Jay R]

Perhaps this change in action will raise suspicions amongst the Order that Durkon isn't who he says he is.

Or maybe - just maybe - it might be barely possible that the plot twist that Rich has been planning for ten years will actually last throughout most of the story it was intended for.

[Angelalex242]

Thor's Divine Rank 18, per Deities and Demigods, so there's that.

He's also got a remote sensor on the area through Durkon's soul. Theoretically, he could even eavesdrop on the conversations between Durkon's soul and Durkula. Particularly because Durkon's faith is clearly undaunted by the situation he's in. He seems perfectly confident his god's gonna kick some hindquarters on his behalf.

[Emperordaniel]

So what if Durkula fails?

"Ach, sorry guys, Thor seems to be on a bit of a rampage today. Must be those trees below us. Praise Thor for finally taking the initiative and striking down the enemies of my people!"

It's not a hard thing to bluff, especially if he appears to make an effort.

Trees? In the middle of the ocean?



The trees ARE evil! :smalleek:

[Keltest]

Thor's Divine Rank 18, per Deities and Demigods, so there's that.

He's also got a remote sensor on the area through Durkon's soul. Theoretically, he could even eavesdrop on the conversations between Durkon's soul and Durkula. Particularly because Durkon's faith is clearly undaunted by the situation he's in. He seems perfectly confident his god's gonna kick some hindquarters on his behalf.

You really need to get past that. Thor in OOTS is not the same as in either the sourcebooks, or in the source mythology. We don't know how his power stacks up relative to any other god, in or outside of his pantheon.

[FujinAkari]

You really need to get past that. Thor in OOTS is not the same as in either the sourcebooks, or in the source mythology. We don't know how his power stacks up relative to any other god, in or outside of his pantheon.

No, but we can be sure it is stronger than any priest in the world, and at the moment we have NO indication that Hel is directly manifesting.

[happycrow]

Of course he's got Control Weather prepared and probably multiple times. You think he wants it bright and sunny outside?

[MilesBeyond]

Or maybe - just maybe - it might be barely possible that the plot twist that Rich has been planning for ten years will actually last throughout most of the story it was intended for.

Yeah, but Durkula getting busted and Durkula being defeated are two different things. I maintain that people discovering Durkon's not actually himself, and as a result Durkula escaping or perhaps (though not likely) being tossed overboard is the simplest and most expedient way for him to get to the Dwarvern Lands, which is where this is all heading.

I'm aware Rich tends to shy away from the most predictable route, and as a result it would hugely surprise me if it were actually that straightforward, but I think that's the general gist of what's going to happen.

[ZestG]

There's no way that any of them would fall for it. It's just literally stupid if any of them does.
The most obvious question the party should ask at this point is "Why did you only do that now and not twenty minutes ago?.."
If no one does, then I'm really starting to question their intelligence score.

The other alternative is Roy knowing that Durkula isn't Durkon and just waits for better moment. For what reason, I can not know.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If I were Durkula, I don't know if I'd be comfortable pitting my Bluff check against Haley's Sense Motive check, heh.

Vampires are actually pretty good at that sort of thing. I wouldn't be surprised if he could Bluff even Haley.

[VoxRationis]

I'm taking the controversial stance and hoping the Control Weather works. Gods have never meddled directly in the mortal world of OotS, they've only granted and revoked powers. I think that as a rule, any cleric spell trumps a god's effect on the world.

That's explicitly not true. The storms sent by Thor previously were shown to be the result of (poorly-planned) action on Thor's part, and one of the comics shows Thor and Surtur battling over a small mortal village.
As for the "create a Snarl" affair, that effect came up when they were creating a world. The world of the stick is created already; if magical disputes between two entities over aspects of an existing world could create a Snarl, then surely something like that would have happened from the various wizards and clerics running around fighting one another.

[Smolder]

Do you think that if Durkon started singing showtunes or something, he could disrupt HPoH's concentration? Or at least force him to make concentration checks with a penalty?

[Reddish Mage]

So what if Durkula fails?

"Ach, sorry guys, Thor seems to be on a bit of a rampage today. Must be those trees below us. Praise Thor for finally taking the initiative and striking down the enemies of my people!"

It's not a hard thing to bluff, especially if he appears to make an effort.

It isn't hard to bluff circumstantially (the question of sense motive checks mechanics is another one entirely). Durkon did have a checkered history with praying to Thor with mixed results and colon tumors. Even if Durkula admits to not being on the best of terms with Thor now (which requires no bluff check), it could well mean only that this will put the Order a little bit more on guard. However, Belkar's accusations and everyone's expectations are putting up a "High Pressure Front," so what happened is Durkula just defused a tense situation.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Well, Tarquin wasn't trying to be good or pretend to be good. An unfamiliar observer would realize that the guy is bad news. And Tarquin's only had any meaningful relationship with Elan out of the whole cast.

With Durkon, we have a comforter, counselor, confidante, and friend of the most loyal sort. He trusts the order and they mean a lot to him, and they trust Durkon and he means a lot to them.

Also, Yeerkon/Darkon/Durkula/Hpoh/not-durkon/Nokrud/Durkmallaksen/Durknot has Durkon's memories and experiences, the very things that define a person. An imposter like that should be almost impossible to tell from the original personality if the Imposter is doing it right.

Remember when Durkon comforted V after hit fight with Xykon? I'd love to see this guy who ain't Durkon do stuff like that. I'd love to see him BE Durkon right up to that moment of betrayal.

Or see him use his wisdom and understanding of the Order. Because the perfect imposter leafs to awesome story possibilities, with the entire order.

But I guess Tarquin's soured you guy on this. Dang Tarquin's, mucking up the story even after leaving the story.

[Reddish Mage]

Do you think that if Durkon started singing showtunes or something, he could disrupt HPoH's concentration? Or at least force him to make concentration checks with a penalty?

No. There's no mechanism allowed in D&D for the trapped soul to influence events, and I just don't see Rich using an ad hoc story device like this one. Durkon will be a passenger until resurrected IMO, at best having the sort of influence of the communications of the guys in the soul splice (which I interpret as not one circumstantial bonus or penalty).

[runeghost]

The other alternative is Roy knowing that Durkula isn't Durkon and just waits for better moment. For what reason, I can not know.

Roy's already answered that question in #910 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), "Whether it is or isn't [really Durkon], we need to keep track of Durkon's body if we're going to bring him back to life.

We might as well have that body up and around and casting spells for us."

While I think Roy would like to believe that Durkon is still Durkon, I also think he's not nearly so laid back and relaxed about the vampire as he's letting everyone believe.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Do you think that if Durkon started singing showtunes or something, he could disrupt HPoH's concentration? Or at least force him to make concentration checks with a penalty?
Well, in Animorphs, stuff like that doesn't work for Yeerks. Jake tried that.

[Stella]

The spell description is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm

Actually, it seems its' somewhat limited what the spell can do, despite the powerful "Control"-word of the title. You cannot kinda remove one kind of unwanted weather; what you do is call forth one type of weather, as appropriate for the season (and what season is it now, in OOTS-verse?). Those weather types available all seems to be quite harsh; simple "Nice, calm weather" isn't on the list.

Also, the casting time is 10 minutes, and after that there's another 10 minutes until the weather change is finished.*Ahem* [7 page ninja by Snowyowl, just the right amount of ninja] Right from the source you linked:

Control weather can do away with atmospheric phenomena (naturally occurring or otherwise) as well as create them.
And even if it doesn't work, it gives Durkula 20 minutes where he is seen as trying to help with the situation.


The appropriate choice for a true cleric of Thor might be - not trying to conquer the god with magic, but simply appealing to your patron deity with a non-magical prayer. After all, we've seen before that deities in OOTS (as in DnD) aren't only there for dealing out spells, they're also deities in the more traditional concept. A high-level cleric of good standing with Thor should be able to appeal for protection against Thor's destructive lightning, even in a situation where lightning storms surrounded the cleric and his company.Riiiiight... And then the forums will light up with actually valid cries of "deus ex machina"!

Really now, do you actually think that it's good story telling for a high level cleric to call on their god for divine intervention with the weather, when they provide spells which can handle that situation? You could expect the response to be something along the lines of "What part of Control Weather did you not understand?" A more valid appeal might be something along the lines of "please don't let the universe get eaten by the god destroying abomination"? There has to be a bit of perspective involved.


You're a Cleric! Cast Control Weather. Which he can do, no matter which god (or none at all) he now gets his spells from.

I assert that one of Thor's domains is Weather (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Weather_Domain), and Control Weather is one of those domain spells.

Over to you. How many clerics of level 15 to 20 does it take to match one of level 30? The answer is somewhere between "lots and lots" and "infinitely many", and we don't have evidence for there being many high level clerics at all in OotSworld. Otherwise raising Roy wouldn't have been a multi-comic epic.
Control WeatherOver to you. The answer to your question appears to be not "lots and lots" nor "infinitely many", but simply as I suggested "a single cleric who can cast Control Weather."

[Shining Wrath]

*Ahem* [7 page ninja by Snowyowl, just the right amount of ninja] Right from the source you linked:

And even if it doesn't work, it gives Durkula 20 minutes where he is seen as trying to help with the situation.

Riiiiight... And then the forums will light up with actually valid cries of "deus ex machina"!

Really now, do you actually think that it's good story telling for a high level cleric to call on their god for divine intervention with the weather, when they provide spells which can handle that situation? You could expect the response to be something along the lines of "What part of Control Weather did you not understand?" A more valid appeal might be something along the lines of "please don't let the universe get eaten by the god destroying abomination"? There has to be a bit of perspective involved.

Over to you. The answer to your question appears to be not "lots and lots" nor "infinitely many", but simply as I suggested "a single cleric who can cast Control Weather."

You may well be right; soon we will know. The penultimate panel shows no change in the weather, just facial expressions. I am working on the assumption that Thor sent this storm; if that turns out to be false then of course we aren't pitting HPoH against Thor. If Thor did send the storm he's not using Control Weather but something stronger.

The Control Weather spell doesn't spell out what happens if two different casters cast at the same time with different requests. I was taking it as a form of Dispel Magic, HPoH against Thor. We shall have to see how the Giant writes this.

[Stella]

You may well be rightNo, I am right. No "may well be" about it. Casting Control Weather was exactly the response to the situation which I called for, and this comic demonstrates so well with "What? It's on the standard cleric spell list. Geez." humor exactly how trivial the weather is to a cleric who can cast Control Weather.

And as I also said, regardless of whether it works or not, it buys Lurky Corpsewhiskers 20 minutes time where he appears to be helping. And this is also why there is no change in the weather shown in the last panel, as you should know. The spell requires 10 minutes of casting and then 10 minutes to take effect.

[VoxRationis]

Well, in Animorphs, stuff like that doesn't work for Yeerks. Jake tried that.

In Stargate SG-1, it does work like that (episode "Forever in a Day"). I don't think we can really apply the rules present in similar situations in other series to this situation here. This is not Animorphs and it is not Stargate, so the rules in those works don't apply.

[Purgatorius]

Do you think that if Durkon started singing showtunes or something, he could disrupt HPoH's concentration? Or at least force him to make concentration checks with a penalty?

Or maybe by showing his memories of Hilgya. :smallredface:
Edit: Maybe he should save that for a real emergency...

[FujinAkari]

No, I am right. No "may well be" about it.

No, you may be right :)

Unless you are Rich Burlew, you are not in a position to speak with authority how the interaction between Control Weather and Lightning Bolts raining from Valhalla will go.

[gerryq]

what ruse? He said out loud "Control weather"


Regardless of the 'control weather' issue: I think when a caster says something out loud like that in OOTS, other people think "he's casting a spell". He is saying magic words that Rich translates for the readers, not the other characters. From their point of view he's saying "Higgeldy Piggeldy Cadabra!"

[dtilque]

I'd just like to nominate 'Lurky Corpsewhiskers' as the new 'official' forum name for the HPoH/Durkula. Once again, Belkar has shown us the way to a better, brighter future through his choosing of the appropriate name.

Stubbles von Smackhammer will like that; Captain Wallow-Pants may not be so appreciative.


Regardless of the 'control weather' issue: I think when a caster says something out loud like that in OOTS, other people think "he's casting a spell". He is saying magic words that Rich translates for the readers, not the other characters. From their point of view he's saying "Higgeldy Piggeldy Cadabra!"

That wasn't the case with the Celestial Tree Sloth Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0805.html)

[HalfThere]

Signed up just to say this, but first, as is obligatory;

Been following OOTS for a long time, the latest pages have been sublime - thank you Rich!

That said, my prediction notes that you lot are heavily caught on the idea that Durkula is going to stop the lightning.
But the weather has many aspects that'll mean not messing with Thor's lightning. Including wind.

Can you say "crash landing in the dwarven lands"?

[Stella]

No, you may be right :)

Unless you are Rich Burlew, you are not in a position to speak with authority how the interaction between Control Weather and Lightning Bolts raining from Valhalla will go.Then it's a good thing that I haven't bothered to speak with authority on that subject, isn't it?

I am, however, quite right about what Lurky Corpsewhisker's best response to the situation regarding the weather was. As evidenced by his response. And yet again, it does not matter if it works on not, Lurky only need to appear to be helpful.

[Everyl]

Regardless of the 'control weather' issue: I think when a caster says something out loud like that in OOTS, other people think "he's casting a spell". He is saying magic words that Rich translates for the readers, not the other characters. From their point of view he's saying "Higgeldy Piggeldy Cadabra!"

I seem to remember Rich saying at one point when people were speculating wildly about what exact powers Laurin used in battle that he regretted establishing that the verbal component of spells in the OOTS-verse is the name of the spell, as it limited his options for what he could and couldn't have spellcasters do. I can't seem to find the quote now, though, so I'll just include a link to the time Zzt'dri's Gust of Wind spell fizzled because he pronounced it "gst've wind" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) due to deafness.

To me, it looks like the ultra-generic verbal components aren't a translation convention for the audience, they're part of the intentionally paper-thin placeholder for a setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17344040#post17344040) that is the OOTS-verse. I guess that's a YMMV opinion unless someone else has more luck digging up Giant quotes than I did.

[Gift Jeraff]

"In OOTS land, you just need to be able to speak the name of the spell to count as a verbal component." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?5758-The-place-for-over-analysis&p=211493&highlight=component#post211493)

[FujinAkari]

Then it's a good thing that I haven't bothered to speak with authority on that subject, isn't it?

I am, however, quite right about what Lurky Corpsewhisker's best response to the situation regarding the weather was. As evidenced by his response. And yet again, it does not matter if it works on not, Lurky only need to appear to be helpful.

Sorry... still not buying it.

See, Durkon is famously dogmatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) in his respect for storms and his desire to use them to interpret the will of his Deity. Simply trying to control the storm is very very far OUTSIDE his MO and only served to set off an alarm that HPOH is not Durkon.

[Keltest]

Sorry... still not buying it.

See, Durkon is famously dogmatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) in his respect for storms and his desire to use them to interpret the will of his Deity. Simply trying to control the storm is very very far OUTSIDE his MO and only served to set off an alarm that HPOH is not Durkon.

And I suppose that the conclusion that "Were on a singing airship, and if this storm doesn't stop, regardless of what Thor wants, were all gonna die!" is unreasonable as well? Besides which, the last time Durkon did that, they all ended up on a show trial and dealing with forces well beyond their job descriptions as adventurers. When it comes down to it, Durkon was never willing to let people die on his theory about Thor and storms.

[happycrow]

Sorry... still not buying it.

See, Durkon is famously dogmatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) in his respect for storms and his desire to use them to interpret the will of his Deity. Simply trying to control the storm is very very far OUTSIDE his MO and only served to set off an alarm that HPOH is not Durkon.

This is logically correct.
But time has passed, things have happened, people have slept since then, and logic goes out the window where our own feelings are concerned. "The outside observer sees what those involved cannot because they are blinded by their emotions" is one of the longest-running Big Plot notions in fantasy, dating back at minimum to Merlin's ability to see everyone's future but his own clearly.

[Amphiox]

Sorry... still not buying it.

See, Durkon is famously dogmatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) in his respect for storms and his desire to use them to interpret the will of his Deity. Simply trying to control the storm is very very far OUTSIDE his MO and only served to set off an alarm that HPOH is not Durkon.

To my knowledge we have but one example of Durkon behaving this way in the presence of the rest of the Order, in canon. That does not necessarily mean "famously dogmatic", or at least that the other members of the Order could be expected to notice the discrepancy automatically.


And I suppose that the conclusion that "Were on a singing airship, and if this storm doesn't stop, regardless of what Thor wants, were all gonna die!" is unreasonable as well? Besides which, the last time Durkon did that, they all ended up on a show trial and dealing with forces well beyond their job descriptions as adventurers. When it comes down to it, Durkon was never willing to let people die on his theory about Thor and storms.

I suspect this is a typo, but a singing airship would be cool. Particularly a Speed-Of-Plot airship like the Mechane. I am just picturing it dropping vague obscure plot foreshadowing in a deep melodious baritone....

[Stella]

Sorry... still not buying it.Then it is a good thing for you that you are not required to "buy it." Life presents us with truths every day. Some people accept them, some people choose to deny them. That's called freedom. You are free to deny global warming, you are free to deny the validity of the theory of evolution, and you are free to deny that I correctly called Lurky Corpsewhiskers' response to being challenged about the weather, even if your denials appear to be rather silly to those of us who are able to recognize the truth.

[Keltest]

I suspect this is a typo, but a singing airship would be cool. Particularly a Speed-Of-Plot airship like the Mechane. I am just picturing it dropping vague obscure plot foreshadowing in a deep melodious baritone....

It says something about the kind of story this is that a singing airship is not completely out of the realm of possibility.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It says something about the kind of story this is that a singing airship is not completely out of the realm of possibility.

That would be a strange little turn, for sure.

[wildwilly]

This comic just gets better and better :smallsmile:

[Everyl]

It says something about the kind of story this is that a singing airship is not completely out of the realm of possibility.

What's so strange about a singing ship (http://www.amazon.com/The-Ship-Sang-Anne-McCaffrey/dp/0345334310)?

[Lexible]

Or maybe - just maybe - it might be barely possible that the plot twist that Rich has been planning for ten years will actually last throughout most of the story it was intended for.

That's just crazy talk!

ca-RAZY!

[Amphiox]

Or maybe - just maybe - it might be barely possible that the plot twist that Rich has been planning for ten years will actually last throughout most of the story it was intended for.

Let us not forget though, that we don't actually know exactly what kind of plot twist The Giant intended and planned. It is certainly possible that the twist he intends involved the Vampire being destroyed quickly and having living Durkon restored to deal with the psychological fallout of the ordeal.

[WindStruck]

Anyway, why do you all think Thor is trying to stop Durkon? Is he even aware his cleric has been turned into a vampire? His soul is still trapped within the body. How does Thor suddenly know all of Hel's plans?

Up until now Thor's been completely daft and feckless. A storm to stop Durkula is completely against his MO.

A more likely thing that is happening is... perhaps Hel is trying to make a distraction and had an idea to throw a huge party. So Thor is simply drunk yet again and randomly throwing around lightning bolts and storms. Or maybe Hel has nothing to do with it. But either way, Thor's not nuts, he's drunk. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Anyway, why do you all think Thor is trying to stop Durkon? Is he even aware his cleric has been turned into a vampire? His soul is still trapped within the body. How does Thor suddenly know all of Hel's plans?

Up until now Thor's been completely daft and feckless. A storm to stop Durkula is completely against his MO.

A more likely thing that is happening is... perhaps Hel is trying to make a distraction and had an idea to throw a huge party. So Thor is simply drunk yet again and randomly throwing around lightning bolts and storms. Or maybe Hel has nothing to do with it. But either way, Thor's not nuts, he's drunk. :smalltongue:

Its an assumption based on the idea that we have no idea what else Thor would be going after them for.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

A more likely thing that is happening is... perhaps Hel is trying to make a distraction and had an idea to throw a huge party. So Thor is simply drunk yet again and randomly throwing around lightning bolts and storms. Or maybe Hel has nothing to do with it. But either way, Thor's not nuts, he's drunk. :smalltongue:
The thing is, this storm appeared as soon as the Mechane crossed into Thor's domain, was one of the strongest ones in years, and appeared to be specifically aimed at the Mechane. It's rather unlikely that he'd be drunk and decided to send a massive at one of his Clerics as soon as he could.

[WindStruck]

OR... maybe Thor is just REALLLY drunk. More drunk than he's been in centuries. And I bet Hel has something to do with it!

Watch, she's pretending to be friendly: "Oh Thor, I hear your 2496395646th birthday is coming up. Why don't we celebrate a little early with some special Ale from my realm?"

[Kish]

Or maybe - just maybe - it might be barely possible that the plot twist that Rich has been planning for ten years will actually last throughout most of the story it was intended for.
Considering exactly what that plot twist is, I'd say that is, indeed, unlikely.

That's not to say I expect Durkon to be resurrected tomorrow (or before the grim prophecy about him has come true in a non-loopholed meant-what-it-said-on-the-tin way). Rather, I expect it to be a long-running storyline. Like Roy's sword dying, or like Roy getting broken. I don't expect the High Priest of Hel to make it into Book 7.

[georgie_leech]

No, normal radius is two miles. Druids double the duration but only half again the radius. And the thing about Control Weather is the phrasing is vague enough that it's possible the radius moves with the caster, in which case they can just keep on cruising in a bubble of calmed storm.

It has a duration and during the duration the caster can keep making changes to the weather in it's area and that area is 'a 2 mile radius centered on the caster' which suggests but does not state outright that it's mobile.

A bit late to the party, but note that the way area works, that's just a little over twice the area covered anyway.





Also, Yeerkon/Darkon/Durkula/Hpoh/not-durkon/Nokrud/Durkmallaksen/Durknot

I've always preferred "Durkoff," myself. :smallbiggrin:

[Cifer]

Hm... meh.

I think this comic shows the limitations of uniting game rules and story. Last strip, the priest of Adad couldn't petition Adad because it wasn't Adad's storm. This time, HPoH's magic works just fine.

Now, what does this mean?

I assume that what the priest of Adad did wasn't weather control, otherwise we'd have a real logic flaw when it didn't work - after all, Durkon's divine magic worked just fine in the realms of the other pantheons. Presumably, the priest simply isn't 13th level.
So what did he do? He made offerings in return for an end of the storm and he expected it to work ("I don't know why it's not working" is not something you say when three out of four such offerings have no effect anyway). So... it's possible to directly petition the gods for aid and get reliable outcomes? Without using up spell slots? Is it just Thor who's always too drunk to hear Durkon's pleas?

All in all, during the present and the last strip the story and rules approaches to priesthood seriously clashed ("I ask my god for help" vs "My god has invested me with power which I use without their help.") and the strips drew attention to it.

I'm really wondering how this will turn out. The narratively probable outcome is that it works - HPoH won't be discovered just yet and the joke of the strip worked by making it seem effortless. Then again, it means HPoH just quarreled with the direct power of a deity and won. Yeah... no.

[Rodin]

Note that Durkon has asked for help from Thor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) without using spell slots before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html)

Note that both times he's out of Thor's dominion, and as such receives no help. In fact, Durkon has been out of Thor's dominion for the majority of the story now (ever since they left the Northern lands in comic 250 or so), although I'm not entirely clear on where Greysky City and Cliffport are geographically.

[Haar]

Seeing how Roy is determined to think that HPoH is Durkon, I wouldn't be surprised if Weather Control fails and Roy believes whatever lies HPoH feeds him. Now to sit and wait to see if WC can repel the storm.

I'm more interested in Belkar, though. He's making quite a lot of assumptions, and pretty much proved himself right when WC was cast. I wonder if he'll make a fuss over "using a spell instead of contacting Thor". Maybe Roy will get sick of it and throw him overboard. :P

[Jay R]

OR... maybe Thor is just REALLLY drunk. More drunk than he's been in centuries.

That's ... a difficult standard to meet.

[Bulldog Psion]

Sorry... still not buying it. See, Durkon is famously dogmatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) in his respect for storms and his desire to use them to interpret the will of his Deity. Simply trying to control the storm is very very far OUTSIDE his MO and only served to set off an alarm that HPOH is not Durkon.

That may be true, but this is a band of people literally unable to see a crowd of goblin ninjas ten feet away when they fail a spot check. I doubt any of them have that much knowledge of Thor's religion or alertness towards Durkon's usual behavior to spot anything amiss at all, really.


I suspect this is a typo, but a singing airship would be cool. Particularly a Speed-Of-Plot airship like the Mechane. I am just picturing it dropping vague obscure plot foreshadowing in a deep melodious baritone....

That's a great description! :smallbiggrin:


Let us not forget though, that we don't actually know exactly what kind of plot twist The Giant intended and planned. It is certainly possible that the twist he intends involved the Vampire being destroyed quickly and having living Durkon restored to deal with the psychological fallout of the ordeal.

Durkon's so stable psychologically I'm not sure how much fallout there would be. He might just shrug and continue like O-Chul.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think 'stable' is a poor way to describe Durkon, simply because we've seen fairly little development of his character. Plus, we're almost guaranteed a meltdown moment when he finds out that most of the last 5(?) years of his life are based on a lie, and he was really exiled.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think 'stable' is a poor way to describe Durkon, simply because we've seen fairly little development of his character.
On the contrary, this is exactly where the "stable" description comes from (when it's not riffing on the first strip). How else do you describe a character that doesn't change much?

[Amphiox]

Durkon's so stable psychologically I'm not sure how much fallout there would be. He might just shrug and continue like O-Chul.

If The Giant wishes it, there is a lot of narrative gold to be mined in having a character established as very stable nevertheless pushed beyond his admittedly high breaking point. To take an analogy from geology, a strong plug on the magma chamber often creates the most spectacular eruptions of all when it finally is breached.

Also, Durkon's stability is what has kept his character flatter than all the others. If you want to see character development for him, you have to push him to the point where his stability is strained.

[Angelalex242]

Well, stability is sort of a natural consequence to having a wisdom score of 24 or whatever it is. And that was before he got the vamp bonus, making it even higher.

[warrl]

Or maybe - just maybe - it might be barely possible that the plot twist that Rich has been planning for ten years will actually last throughout most of the story it was intended for.

The plot twist WILL last through the (sub)story it's intended for.

But we don't know what that story is, or how long it will last.


I suspect this is a typo, but a singing airship would be cool. Particularly a Speed-Of-Plot airship like the Mechane. I am just picturing it dropping vague obscure plot foreshadowing in a deep melodious baritone....

Why not? I once saw a horse who recites Paradise Lost (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=321)...

[rg9000]

Does anyone realize that if he goes home, he will be there posthumously?
Oracle's prophesy

[Keltest]

Does anyone realize that if he goes home, he will be there posthumously?
Oracle's prophesy

Id imagine that topic was discussed to death and back on the discussion thread for the comic where he came back as the undead.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Does anyone realize that if he goes home, he will be there posthumously?
Oracle's prophesy

Yep. I eagerly await seeing how the second of his prophecies is fulfilled.

[FujinAkari]

Does anyone realize that if he goes home, he will be there posthumously?
Oracle's prophesy

Pretty much everyone, yes :)

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Does anyone realize that if he goes home, he will be there posthumously?
Oracle's prophesy

Whoa.

I actually didn't think of that.

Sincerity mode here.

We need a color for sincerity.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We need a color for sincerity.
How about blue?

[Luizeu]

New art style still amazes me

[Nawaki]

What cleric would waste his spell slots where prayer will do? Every leader should find that suspicious! Well at least in all the games I ever played :D
But as a plot ploint? Well why not :D Let's see where it will follow
And I am not really that suprised that Roy let's his friendship cloud his judgement...
And yes, now we know why the high cleric of Thor was afraid that Durkon will bring doom to his people

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And yes, now we know why the high cleric of Thor was afraid that Durkon will bring doom to his people

Plus the whole "prophecy from Odin" thing.

[Terrador]

What cleric would waste his spell slots where prayer will do? Every leader should find that suspicious! Well at least in all the games I ever played :D
But as a plot ploint? Well why not :D Let's see where it will follow
And I am not really that suprised that Roy let's his friendship cloud his judgement...
And yes, now we know why the high cleric of Thor was afraid that Durkon will bring doom to his people
It's not quite so cut-and-dry as that. Some might consider that a cleric's spells are his primary method of having his prayers answered by his god--that they're so trusted with his might that they can use it without his discretion, and that's as much juice as the god is giving*

And when Roy spoke with Vaarsuvius at the end of BRitF, he made clear that he knew "his cleric was in the shop", and made much more of a point of "this body is up and around casting spells for us" than "this is totally Durkon and I trust him implicitly".

*This isn't necessarily accurate, but who honestly has ranks in Know(Religion)?