DMG "variant" classes?

[Seharvepernfan]

I was looking at them today, and there are more of them than I remember, and some of them I've never heard of anywhere else. Do any of you use them? Have you? Would you?

Here's a list:
-Desert Knife Fighter (limited weapon selection, but early specialization; seems a good dip for a rogue)
-Fire Mage (wizard with bonuses to fire spells but no access to air/earth/water spells)
-Warrior-Priest (cleric with a fighter's proficiencies and Bab, but fewer spells per day and no healing; I'm surprised this isn't widely used)
-Swashbuckler Rogue (this one showed up in UA)
-Druid with more wild shape but less spells per day (that's probably in UA too)
-Cantor (divine bard with spells from the cleric list only; never heard of this except right there)
-Witch (sorcerer with variant spell list)
-Undead Stalker (Ranger with some rogue abilities; highly focused against undead; spell list focuses on stealth and undead)

I don't think I've ever seen anybody use these, except for the ones from UA. I particularly like the Warrior-Priest and Undead Stalker.

Just curious.

[LentilNinja]

My goodness. I've looked in UA before for the variants of Paladin and somehow completely overlooked the rest of these! Some of these sound pretty good flavourwise, especially the Monk stuff.

I'm gonna be passing this round to my players for sure.

[Karnith]

Likely the reason that people rarely, if ever, discuss these class variants is that they don't have full rules attached to them. Even the ones that are dealt with extensively aren't complete; both the Witch and the Undead Stalker still need additional work done by a DM to actually be usable in a game. The desert knife fighter, fire mage, and warrior-priest are just vague, one-sentence suggestions. Without rules that are usable as-is, there's not really a point to discussing the variants as if they are full variant classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) because we don't really have a good starting point in common; it is extremely unlikely that a desert knife fighter class statted out by one DM is going to be the same as a desert knife fighter class statted out by some other DM.

[A.A.King]

Things like the Warrior-Priest aren't wildly used because it's just one line in the DMG. It doesn't really specify what "fewer spells per day" means. These are merely suggestions.

[Story]

The only one I knew about was the Witch, and that's only due to questions about whether 3.5 has a Witch class distinct from Pathfinder's.


Likely the reason that people rarely, if ever, discuss these class variants is that they don't have full rules attached to them. Even the ones that are dealt with extensively aren't complete; both the Witch and the Undead Stalker still need additional work done by a DM to actually be usable in a game. The desert knife fighter, fire mage, and warrior-priest are just vague, one-sentence suggestions. Without rules that are usable as-is, there's not really a point to discussing the variants as if they are full variant classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) because we don't really have a good starting point in common; it is extremely unlikely that a desert knife fighter class statted out by one DM is going to be the same as a desert knife fighter class statted out by some other DM.

I thought Witch was just a copy of Sorcerer with a different spelllist, but on closer inspection you're right. All it says is that it casts spells as a Sorcerer, leaving HD, BaB, familiar, etc. technically undefined. Still, it seems likely that a DM would just use Sorcerer stats for it in practice.

[Pluto!]

I've never used the example class modifications, but I tweak classes about as often as I use them straight out of the book. Does that count?

Eg. The last Paladin I played had d8 HD, good will saves, 4 base skill points, its Smite used a Turn Undead attempt, but turning was available from level 1, it lost all class features besides Smite, Turning and Divine Favor, but it got spellcasting like a Bard (Charisma-based spontaneous, adding some Cleric orisons and level 5-8 spells to fill its level 0, 5 and 6 spell menus).

The last Hexblade I played worked similarly, with more skills, lower HD, bard spell progression and fewer minor cluttering class features. Basically "Bard," "Spell" and "Progression" are the three magic words that make me consider a lot of janky classes playable and interesting, so I use them pretty dang often (unless we're talking psionics, when they'll become "PsyWar Power Progression").

One of the players I DM for just ran a Wild Shape-style Ranger that went deep enough into variants and tweaks that it wasn't at all recognizable, with psionics and PHB2-based Shapeshifting (made weirder by custom feats for additional types of forms).

So on those particular variants: No.
On variants in general: Absolutely, and I'd be surprised if many people stayed interested in 3E this long without messing with that sort of stuff.

[Gemini476]

Most of them are pretty ill-defined, yeah.
Here's a list of all of them, each one in it's own quote:

Imagine the desert knife fighter, a fighter with limited weapon selection but early specialization with a knife.

Or a fire mage, a wizard with particularly potent fire spells but no access to any spells involving water, air, or earth.

Or a warrior-priest who functions like a cleric, but with a fighter's weapon selection and attack bonus, fewer spells per day, and no access to healing spells.

[When making a religion-focused campaign] you can just say that each individual has at least one level of cleric. You can rule that in such a world, the cleric class has no XP penalties for multiclassing.

Consider making a swashbuckling rogue with no ability to sneak attack but more combat- and movement-oriented feats,

or a druid with fewer spells per day but the capability to use wild shape more often.


Subtle changes, such as the paladin of a diety of healing with all healing spells,

or a beastmaster ranger with only animal-related spells,

Greater changes are also possible, such as the divine bard (the cantor), whose spells are all taken from he cleric list.
That guy showed up in UA, incidentally.

[The Witch] casts spells as a sorcerer, using the sorcerer's Spells per Day table, and her spells are based on Charisma.
0 Level: [I]arcane mark, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, light, mending, read magic, resistance, virtue.
1st Level: cause fear, change self, charm person, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, doom, endure elements, hypnotism, identify, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism.
2nd Level: alter self, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, detect thoughts, enthrall, invisibility, locate object, minor image, scare, whispering wind.
3rd Level: bestow curse, clairvoyance/clairaudience, contagion, create food and water, dispel magic, Leomund's tiny hut, magic circle against chaos/law/evil/good*, major image, rage, remove blindness/deafness, suggestion, tongues.
4th Level: charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies, divination, fear, giant vermin, good hope, locate creature, minor creation,neutralize poison, polymorph, remove curse, scrying.
5th Level: baleful polymorph, dream, false vision, feeblemind, greater command, magic jar, major creation, mirage arcana, nightmare, seeming, sending.
6th Level: animate objects, control weather, eyebite, find the path, geas/quest, greater scrying, heroes' feast, legend lore, mass suggestion, mislead, repulsion, shadow image, Tenser's transformation, true seeing.
7th Level: creeping doom, finger of death, insanity, liveoak, repel wood, transport via plants.
8th Level: antipathy,m demand, discern location, horrid wilting, polymorph any object, sympathy, trap the soul.
9th Level: earthquake, foresight, refuge, shapechange, wail of the banshee, weird
*When she becomes able to cast 3rd-level spells, the witch chooses to have one of the four magic circle spells on her spell list. Whichever spell she chooses, she cannot cast it as a spell of an alignment opposite her own.

It's possible to create entirely new classes, or rather, to alter existing classes so drastically that they're no longer recognizable. For example, you could make the following adjustments to the ranger.

Limit his weapon selection to resemble the rogue's list of weapon proficiencies.
Change his favored enemy ability so that it applies only to undead, and hus bonus improves by two every five levels.
Give him the rogue's sneak attack ability, but change it so that it's only usable against undead.
Change his spell list so that it consists of spells that deal strictly with undead or that are used for subterfuge and sneaking.
At 3rd level, give him the paladin's smite evil ability, usable only against undead.

Now the class is the undead stalker, a stealthy character skilled in tracking and slaying undead.

[For a magic-hating culture] you might alter the fighter to be a demonslayer and give the class a limited weapon selection and special feats that work best against outsiders.

The ranger might become a wizard-hunter,
Favored Enemy: Arcanists, perhaps?

the cleric could be a protector with early access to dispel magic and various defensive spells,

and all PC classes might be imbued with the ability to use detect magic once per day.

Sometimes, however, players come to you and say that they like a certain class, but they want to change a single feature or two. Michele might want to play a ranger with no desire to have more than one favored enemy. She wants to play a beast-slayer, and her character hares dire wolves. She's also interested in the paladin's warhorse. You can decide, as a DM, that it's acceptable to trade those ranger abilities for the paladin's mount. In fact, you might decide that it's not a fair trade and that Michele's character can have the detect evil ability as well. (She is, after all, giving up an ability usable at 1st level as well as one that comes into play later for one that she can't acquire until 5th level.)

I feel like some of these have some homebrew potential.

[Seharvepernfan]

Oh wow, I didn't see some of those.

Does anybody have more examples of class changes like what Pluto! did? I have one in a similar vein: the bravo, a fighter variant.

-d8
-no heavy armor or tower-shield proficiency
-4 skill points per level, with balance and tumble added in
-granted guerilla warrior and guerilla scout for free