Savage Species - Monster class help

[LentilNinja]

So I'm wanting to play a campaign where everyone gets to play as a monster. However, it says that when you pick a monster you HAVE to level its Monster Class. My DM said he's willing to let us multiclass from it but with the same kind of penalty Monks get: If you stop levelling the Monster Class, you can never level it again.

I'm very much one who likes to play by the game rules. Is this a reasonable thing that wont break characters?

[Gildedragon]

That is an odd thing. Mostly since monster classes are pretty... Well bad. Lots of levels they don't boost HD, they got LAs up the wazoo... Now: being able to multiclass out is great (and should have been the case from the start) PC classes are just stronger (this is why you are able to beat these guys up), so ditching the monster after a couple levels for an assoc'd PC class is gold. letting pcs multiclass freely makes more sense

[OldTrees1]

WotC Savage Species Monster Classes tend to uniformly distribute the monster's power over any excessive number of levels. The exception is the racial traits (specifically access to powerful Types) that tend to front load the classes 1st level. However even with this front loading of the 1st level, a monster class tends to compare unfavorably to an LA+0 Race with 1 level of a balanced PC class.

Summary: WotC messed up and the prohibition on multiclassing is not needed as a result.


However people noticed that WotC messed up and decided to fix the problem themselves. Consider showing your DM these monster classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192151-Community-Based-Monster-Classes-VII).

[Karnith]

There are a few monster classes which are front-loaded and which would probably benefit disproportionately from being able to multiclass out. One level of Shadow gives you the Undead type and Incorporeal subtype, for example, and starting as an Air Elemental gets you a fly speed of 100 ft. (perfect) and some other nice bonuses. There are also some monster classes that are basically base class+ for at least a few HD. The first five levels of Ghaele, for example, are pretty insane, offering full Cleric casting, full BAB, 8 + Int skill points per level, 3 good saves, and a host of special abilities (SLAs, ability bonuses, natural armor, and some other odds and ends), and Trumpet Archon 3 goes further by giving you 5th-level Cleric casting (minus domains and domain spell slots) in addition to Outsider goodies.

That said, the vast majority of the monster classes are really weak, so either players are breaking this or getting bogged down by crap levels. I'd just make some sort of custom races, or homebrew your own monster classes.

[Pluto!]

That is breakable as all get-out. Just look at the celestials with Outsider HD and Cleric casting at or above a level appropriate to their ECL. That's normally [kind of] balanced by the HD-less levels that they're stuck sucking up until they turn into unplayable wrecks at high ECLs (like most Savage Species characters), but if they can bail on the monster class early, you're going to wind up with crazy-statted super-clerics playing alongside the guy who thought that maxing out Ghoul levels was a good idea.

Edit: But I guess that's bound to happen anyway if you play with SS. My concern is that being able to make legitimately and lastingly powerful characters with that book will just exaggerate its terrible balance, but that's less a question of "will things be broken?" and more a question of " just how broken are things going to be?"

[Gemini476]

There are monster classes out there that let you multiclass - the online ones, mostly.
They're somewhat notable for being pretty much the only good ones.

There's also a third variant, I think - Drow of the Underdark has a kind of weird Drow racial class that is LA+0. I think. It's pretty weird.

[RedMage125]

There are monster classes out there that let you multiclass - the online ones, mostly.
They're somewhat notable for being pretty much the only good ones.

There's also a third variant, I think - Drow of the Underdark has a kind of weird Drow racial class that is LA+0. I think. It's pretty weird.

That was in Player's Guide to Faerun. But that was a "Lesser Drow" with no way to improve abilities. There was another one online, too.

https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp

Click on "Level-Adjusted Races"

[Gemini476]

That was in Player's Guide to Faerun. But that was a "Lesser Drow" with no way to improve abilities. There was another one online, too.

https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp

Click on "Level-Adjusted Races"

Huh, really? Because there's another Drow Racial Class on page 221 of Drow of the Underdark. I don't know if it's the same one, but it might be.
It's kind of weird, since it's a full 20-level progression and has you lose a class level at level 2 and 4. So I guess it has LA anyway? You get to start at level 1, though. You also get all of the Drow racial abilities spread out amongst the first four racial levels.

[RedMage125]

Huh, really? Because there's another Drow Racial Class on page 221 of Drow of the Underdark. I don't know if it's the same one, but it might be.
It's kind of weird, since it's a full 20-level progression and has you lose a class level at level 2 and 4. So I guess it has LA anyway? You get to start at level 1, though. You also get all of the Drow racial abilities spread out amongst the first four racial levels.

It's not a 20-level class. The 20 level progression shows what you get if you take your two "drow racial levels" early on, and how it would affect feat/ability score increase progression.

Personally, I recommend the online one.

[Gemini476]

It's not a 20-level class. The 20 level progression shows what you get if you take your two "drow racial levels" early on, and how it would affect feat/ability score increase progression.

Personally, I recommend the online one.

I get the feeling that we're talking about completely different racial classes here.
http://i.imgur.com/AmSp6Dv.png
Taking the levels in the DotU Drow racial class is, to my knowledge, non-optional.
However, it also interweaves standard character classes in a way that makes it a bit strange, which was what I was referring to.

[RedMage125]

I get the feeling that we're talking about completely different racial classes here.
http://i.imgur.com/AmSp6Dv.png
Taking the levels in the DotU Drow racial class is, to my knowledge, non-optional.
However, it also interweaves standard character classes in a way that makes it a bit strange, which was what I was referring to.

No, that's the table I meant.

That it not a "20 level class". There's no BAB, Saves, Skills, class features, anything.

That is a table which shows you how you'd progress in a character class if you also took your "racial levels" to become a full-blown drow.

And again, the online one, you can take those levels whenever you want, they need not be your first few levels. Your starting racial stats are also better.

[OldTrees1]

The progression in Drow of the Underdark relaxes the 2 level Drow Racial Class a bit by splitting it into 4 parts over the first 4 ECL (with LA staggered with Class levels). The remaining 16 levels show how feat and stat progression are changed.

So it is something new. Personally I still prefer the online version.

[LentilNinja]

Character building session started off with someone asking if they could play as a Monster class with 0 HD (just the racial starting traits and PC class levels).
However, I then feel they start to outclass other races. For example, the Frost Giant gets +4 STR, 40 ft land speed, and Darkvision 60 ft. Also, the Genie gets +2 INT & DEX, 30 ft flying (perfect), and Darkvision 60 ft.

I've toyed with the idea of giving them their regular LA back, but +6 onto a Genie for those benefits seems too harsh. Theres also making them take at least 1 Racial HD, but that only seems to make it better/not that much worse (race dependant).

[RedMage125]

Depends on how many Hit Dice they're giving up. If someone wants to play a gnoll (2 RHD, +1 LA), and lose the RHD and just keep the LA, I'd be fine with it. But a Frost Giant? No way.

[nedz]

Savage Species was a 3.0 book. For 3.5 you should probably use the Savage Progressions system which were published as a series of Web articles which have already been linked to here :-

https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp

Both the Savage Species and Savage Progressions systems are a mixed bag in terms of balance. They are usually consistent, ultimately, with a character built with the standard LA and RHD for the race/monster concerned except that you can play them from level 1. The Monk like multi-classing rule doesn't really change anything other than limiting player choice — though there may be advantages to not taking all of the levels anyway. In general if the LA + RHD exceeds 2 then taking normal classes will result in more powerful characters.

[RedMage125]

Savage Species was a 3.0 book. For 3.5 you should probably use the Savage Progressions system which were published as a series of Web articles which have already been linked to here :-

While you are correct that it is a 3.0 book, it was also published when the 3.5 edition revision was only months away. It's sort of the only "3.25" book, if you will.

If you don't believe me, look for yourself. No references to Alchemy as a skill, but rather Craft (Alchemy), Survival instead of Wilderness Lore.

Most of Savage Species can be used with 3.5, with very little need for adaption. You can even compare the monster class to the corresponding entry in the Monster Manual, and see that they usually match up well. There are exceptions. Rakshasa, for example, underwent some significant changes to the 3.5e system.

[nedz]

The main balance issues I have with either are for things with early access to powers which trivialise low level encounters — typically Flight (though there are a few other SLAs)

Lets take Half-Fey as an example; options:
Template (FF) start with LA+2 and flight — can't play at ECL 1
SS — can play at ECL 1, but must take flight at ECL 2
SP — can play at ECL 1, but may take flight at ECL 2 (or later)
There is also another route
Fey Touched Race / Half Fey conversion class but this is more complex and LA +3 (IIRC)

My own houserule is to enforce force use of SP but not allow certain levels until later; unless you are creating a character at a higher ECL anyway — in which case you may as well use the Racial Template. In the example case of Half-Fey I would not allow Half-Fey 2 until ECL 6, unless you were creating a character at ECL 6 or higher in which case you may as well use the FF Template since it's simpler and amounts to the same. This is simply because Flight trivialises low level challenges.

The houserule which the OP's DM is proposing would allow Flight at level 2 for half-fey but penalise players who wanted to delay this.