Incarnum: What useful things can you do without taking incarnum classes

[Tantum Umbra]

Assuming you don't take any levels in incarnum classes.. What can useful things could you get out of Incarnum if you have a feat or two or three or four to burn?

[Aegis013]

Shape soulmeld: shedu crown, open least chakra, mindsight. (9th lvl earliest)
Gain mindsight, uses head slot.

Shape soulmeld: phase cloak, open lesser chakra. (12th lvl)
Turn ethereal while you're moving. Uses shoulder slot.

Shape soulmeld: mage's spectacles.
Boost UMD.

[Necroticplague]

Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail belt
Decent increase in AC for one feat.

Shape Soulmeld:disenchanter mask
Because if you can't find a use for at-will fetect magic, you aren't even trying.

Shape Soulmeld: Kruthick claws
for one feat, gives the bonus of skill focus in hide and move silently both.

Shape Soulmeld:Lucky Dice
+1 to whatever you want, pretty much. Useful if your swift actions are just sitting there.

Shaoe Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets
For the character that wants to use combat maneuvers, every little bonus helps against the giant monsters.

Shape Soulmeld:Strongheart vest.
Without even counting how much of a godsend this is to hellfire warlocks, its pretty useful overall. ability damage is a nasty debuff, and this helps you resist it.

Shape Soulmeld:Winter Mask
Speaking of debuffs, fatigue isn't too bad of one itself.

[Tantum Umbra]

The wormtail belt says it gives +2 AC and then it says the bonus increases for every essentia point you invest in it.. does that mean 1 essentia = 3 Natural AC and 2 essentia = 4 Natural AC?

[Coidzor]

You can get Evasion with the Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots) & Open Least Chakra feats. Potentially useful for getting prereqs/Fochlucan Lyrist entry.

[Bloodgruve]

Shape Soulmeld:Strongheart vest.
Without even counting how much of a godsend this is to hellfire warlocks, its pretty useful overall. ability damage is a nasty debuff, and this helps you resist it.


I believe I read an official-ish post stating this does not work with Hellfire :/ Think it's linked in one of the warlock handbooks.


The wormtail belt says it gives +2 AC and then it says the bonus increases for every essentia point you invest in it.. does that mean 1 essentia = 3 Natural AC and 2 essentia = 4 Natural AC?

I believe so. But you may have a limit on the amount of essentia you can invest.

Blood~

[Werephilosopher]

Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt grants short-range Dimension Door at-will. Very nice on a shadow pouncer.

[Coidzor]

I believe so. But you may have a limit on the amount of essentia you can invest.

Blood~

Essentia limit is based on HD/character level rather than class level, so there's that. Getting essentia, on the other hand, requires race/feat/class level investment.

[IslandDog]

Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt grants short-range Dimension Door at-will. Very nice on a shadow pouncer.

This. Using it now and it's an insane get out of jail free card (especially at early levels).

[malonkey1]

Surpass a Soulborn entirely.

[Waddacku]

Cobalt Expertise can help giving you a hell of an investment/return ratio on using Combat Expertise.

[Feint's End]

I believe I read an official-ish post stating this does not work with Hellfire :/ Think it's linked in one of the warlock handbooks.

It indeed does not because you cannot reduce the damage to less than 1 because then it counts as immunity, which is illegal on hellfire (IIRC).

It's still quite easy to negate it with a binder dip of course.

On topic. Wouldn't airstep sandals + open least chakra give you easy access to at will flight (it's slow but perfect so pretty nice)?

[PsyBomb]

The Hellfire thing is always going to vary table to table, since they're never going to put out a full errata. However, several Soulmelds are definitely worth shaping. Ones that haven't been mentioned:

Blink Shirt: Infinite-use 10' Dimension Door (longer if you have essence)
Soulspark Familiar: Alertness plus a possible perk in the critter
Cerulean Sandials: Infinite Water Walk, increases land speed if you have essence
Impulse Boots: Uncanny Dodge

Bloodwar Gauntlets: Morale bonus on melee attack rolls, increases with essence. Stacks with Weapon Focus
Sighting Gloves: Damage on ranged attacks, increases with essentia. Stacks with Weapon Spec

Bluesteel Bracers: +2 Initiative that stacks with Improved Initiative, bonus to weapon damage if you have essentia

Lammasu Mantle: mini-Protection from Evil

Really, it's not hard to find awesome benefits from Shape Soulmeld. Any DM will let you use at least one, and many will allow you to keep on taking the feat and using them all.

[Rubik]

I like using manifester level boosts and cost reduction techniques to use the Psionic Open Chakra power to bind soulmelds before any other class in the game has access to the appropriate chakra binds. My favorite is the phase cloak shoulder bind for at will ethereality during one's move actions. Doable at level 7.


essenceI think you mean "essentia."

[PsyBomb]

I think you mean "essentia."

I did, been working on the DSP port to PF recently :smallbiggrin:

[Cruiser1]

Assuming you don't take any levels in incarnum classes.. What can useful things could you get out of Incarnum if you have a feat or two or three or four to burn?
Why spend any feats at all? :smallbiggrin: A Tier 1 class has better things to spend their valuable feats on, but they can still take advantage of incarnum just using Wizard and Cleric spells:

Cast Soul Boon, and now you have an essentia pool of 1-5 points. Cast Open Least/Lesser/Greater Chakra up to 8 times, and you can open your arms, brow, crown, feet, hands, shoulder, throat, and waist chakras. Bind your existing equipment to your open chakras to get various insight bonuses.

[Rubik]

I did, been working on the DSP port to PF recently :smallbiggrin:Ugh. Changing all the terminology around to similar-but-different words is only going to confuse people on a system that's already a bit confusing, especially if you're not already familiar with it. :smallyuk:

[Red Fel]

Really? Thread goes on this long and nobody mentions Astral Vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)?

Part of the appeal of Incarnum is its versatility - swapping out one ability for another, on a large scale, on a day-to-day basis.

Astral Vambraces, moreso than any other soulmeld, offer this versatility in spades.

Two feats: Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces), Open Lesser Chakra (Arms). Requires 12th level, 15 Con. You can now shape and bind Astral Vambraces. You gain DR 2/magic just for having it shaped (more if you invest), but the big payoff is if you bind it to your arms. You get to benefit from one ability from Astral Construct Menu A. Have you looked at Menu A (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm)? Here's the rundown:

Buff (Ex): The astral construct gains an extra 5 hit points. Celerity (Ex): The astral construct’s land speed is increased by 10 feet. Cleave (Ex): The astral construct gains the Cleave feat. Deflection (Ex): The astral construct gains a +1 deflection bonus to Armor Class. Fly (Ex): The astral construct has physical wings and a fly speed of 20 feet (average). Improved Bull Rush (Ex): The astral construct gains the Improved Bull Rush feat. Improved Slam Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Improved Natural Attack feat. Mobility (Ex): The astral construct gains the Mobility feat. Power Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Power Attack feat. Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic. The astral construct gains resistance 5 against that energy type. Swim (Ex): The astral construct is streamlined and sharklike, and gains a swim speed of 30 feet. Trip (Ex): If the astral construct hits with a slam attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking attacks of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the astral construct.
And you can change that option every time you bind the soulmeld - in other words, on a daily basis. This is the soulmeld of soulmelds. The ultimate versatility tool. Want (Ex) flight today? It's yours. Deflection tomorrow? Yours. Resistance the day after? Guess what, it's yours.

[Seerow]

Ugh. Changing all the terminology around to similar-but-different words is only going to confuse people on a system that's already a bit confusing, especially if you're not already familiar with it. :smallyuk:

Yeah, unfortunately those pesky IP laws prevent the from keeping everything the same.

[Rubik]

Really? Thread goes on this long and nobody mentions Astral Vambraces (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)?

Part of the appeal of Incarnum is its versatility - swapping out one ability for another, on a large scale, on a day-to-day basis.

Astral Vambraces, moreso than any other soulmeld, offer this versatility in spades.

Two feats: Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces), Open Lesser Chakra (Arms). Requires 12th level, 15 Con. You can now shape and bind Astral Vambraces. You gain DR 2/magic just for having it shaped (more if you invest), but the big payoff is if you bind it to your arms. You get to benefit from one ability from Astral Construct Menu A. Have you looked at Menu A (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm)? Here's the rundown:

And you can change that option every time you bind the soulmeld - in other words, on a daily basis. This is the soulmeld of soulmelds. The ultimate versatility tool. Want (Ex) flight today? It's yours. Deflection tomorrow? Yours. Resistance the day after? Guess what, it's yours.I'd only be choosing the fly speed on the vast majority of days. The only other ones I'd ever bother with would be swim (for underwater adventures -- which really don't happen very often in the vast majority of campaigns) and tripping, but only on certain builds.

AKA: Its "versatility" isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Flight for a couple of feats is pretty darned nice, though. Or a feat and a spell/power (though you could always just cast Alter Self, I guess).

[Tantum Umbra]

I'd only be choosing the fly speed on the vast majority of days. The only other ones I'd ever bother with would be swim (for underwater adventures -- which really don't happen very often in the vast majority of campaigns) and tripping, but only on certain builds.

AKA: Its "versatility" isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Flight for a couple of feats is pretty darned nice, though. Or a feat and a spell/power (though you could always just cast Alter Self, I guess).

Considering it's not available until level 12.. it's a little meh sadly.

[squiggit]

It indeed does not because you cannot reduce the damage to less than 1 because then it counts as immunity, which is illegal on hellfire (IIRC).
Immunity is illegal on hellfire, but I've never heard "DR counts as immunity" before.

[Bakkan]

I wrote up a short guide on the Shape Soulmeld feat (in my sig). Hope you find it useful, though on reinspection it seems I forgot to complete the section on soulmelds and alignment.

[Tantum Umbra]

Wow super nice Bakkan! I think you should finish it when you have the time...

Also.. ugh.. the oots table issue is there where they got all ruined :S

[Feint's End]

Immunity is illegal on hellfire, but I've never heard "DR counts as immunity" before.

Yeah as I said I can't really recall the exact reason right now since I'm just on my phone but it was pretty bulletproof by RAW. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be OK to allow it regardless.

[Bakkan]

Wow super nice Bakkan! I think you should finish it when you have the time...

Also.. ugh.. the oots table issue is there where they got all ruined :S

Gah! I totally forgot about that. At least that was only for a small part of it. I'll try to fix it soon.

[Coidzor]

Immunity is illegal on hellfire, but I've never heard "DR counts as immunity" before.

I don't necessarily endorse it, but I believe the idea is that if one resists the ability damage completely, then one's effectively immune and that triggers it.

[PsyBomb]

I've heard it fluffed for the Hellfire thing that you're offering bits of the soul you bound around you, rather than your own.

[Bloodgruve]

The Hellfire thing is always going to vary table to table, since they're never going to put out a full errata.


Immunity is illegal on hellfire, but I've never heard "DR counts as immunity" before.

Official 3.5 FAQ
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)
Explicitly states on p116 of the latest document;

Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (MoI 89) protect
you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s
hellfire blast ability (FCII 90)?
The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of
ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it does not
keep you safe from the costs of hellfire blast because the ability
damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.

Ultimately up to the DM at your table though ;) I wish this hadn't been updated though as I'm currently working up to Hellfire...

Blood~

[Bakkan]

Official 3.5 FAQ
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)
Explicitly states on p116 of the latest document;

Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (MoI 89) protect
you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s
hellfire blast ability (FCII 90)?
The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of
ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it does not
keep you safe from the costs of hellfire blast because the ability
damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.

Ultimately up to the DM at your table though ;) I wish this hadn't been updated though as I'm currently working up to Hellfire...

Blood~

That interpretation is not supported by the rules text. The first sentence of the description states that "The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that would
reduce your ability scores." This sentence does not preclude the Strongheart Vest from protecting against anything else. Indeed, this is an introductory sentence that does not in fact give any mechanical information. The mechanics of the vest are contained in the next sentence: "Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0." The phrase "any time" is completely unqualified. The first sentence describes a proper subset of the Strongheart Vest's abilities.

[Tantum Umbra]

Am i the only one that thinks one should not be looking at D&D rules but at the meaning of the word immunity?

Immunity:protection or exemption from something, especially an obligation or penalty.

The strongheart makes the Warlock exempt from the damage, thus he is immune. Thus it doesn't work.

[Necroticplague]

Am i the only one that thinks one should not be looking at D&D rules but at the meaning of the word immunity?

Immunity:protection or exemption from something, especially an obligation or penalty.

The strongheart makes the Warlock exempt from the damage, thus he is immune. Thus it doesn't work.

Except within dnd rules, an immunity is much stronger than that. Immunity to con damage (what hellfire warlock looks for), would mean that no matter how much con damage you should take, you never take any. A zombie is immune to con damage. It could not use hellfire blasts. however, it could also swim in a pool of black lotus extract with no ill effects. Having a strongheart vest only protects you a little, it does not make you immune. Swimming in a pool of black lotus extract with a strongheart vest would still kill you. You aren't immune in the sense that the game uses the term.

[Scrapheap]

Do you have to take one of the Open Chakra feats to use a soulmeld or just take Shape Soulmeld?
I see that Shape Soulmeld only has Con 13 as a prereq, but doesnt say what Chakras, if any, you need to use it.

[Karnith]

Do you have to take one of the Open Chakra feats to use a soulmeld or just take Shape Soulmeld?
I see that Shape Soulmeld only has Con 13 as a prereq, but doesnt say what Chakras, if any, you need to use it.
You don't need one of the Open Chakra feats to take Shape Soulmeld. Shape Soulmeld only lets you, well, shape a soulmeld, though, and if you want to actually be able to bind that soulmeld, you'd need to take the Open X Chakra feats.

Naturally, without some source of soulmelds, such as the Shape Soulmeld feat, the Open X Chakra feats aren't that great, as the benefits of binding magical items to your chakras rely almost entirely on your DM being nice to you.

[Chronos]

Never take Kruthik Claws, nor most other totemist soulmelds, just for the skills. Most totemist melds give a competence bonus to skills, and if you're making any effort at all to pump a skill, you already have a competence bonus that's larger, and so the soulmeld will do nothing. Incarnate soulmelds, on the other hand, are mostly insight bonuses, which are much less common from other sources. Theft Gloves, Keeneye Goggles, and Mage's Spectacles can all be useful on a skillmonkey-type.

[Vhaidara]

I'd only be choosing the fly speed on the vast majority of days. The only other ones I'd ever bother with would be swim (for underwater adventures -- which really don't happen very often in the vast majority of campaigns) and tripping, but only on certain builds.

AKA: Its "versatility" isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Flight for a couple of feats is pretty darned nice, though. Or a feat and a spell/power (though you could always just cast Alter Self, I guess).

I see Cleave as a bonus feat on that list. It could be used for those builds that take War Hulk but disqualify from it when not using it (to avoid losing their mental skills).

[Bloodgruve]

That interpretation is not supported by the rules text. The first sentence of the description states that "The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that would
reduce your ability scores." This sentence does not preclude the Strongheart Vest from protecting against anything else. Indeed, this is an introductory sentence that does not in fact give any mechanical information. The mechanics of the vest are contained in the next sentence: "Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0." The phrase "any time" is completely unqualified. The first sentence describes a proper subset of the Strongheart Vest's abilities.

Any table can play it how they see fit but with such a specific ruling I'm not able to pass it by my DM unfortunately. I wouldn't allow it in my game either simply due to the official response. We all know how well this edition was written.

Blood~

[Chronos]

I would also disallow strongheart hellfire, though for a different reason than the FAQ author. Strongheart Vest doesn't make you immune to Con damage in general, since a big wallop of it (a strong poison, say) could still get through. But Hellfire isn't disqualified by "immunity to Con damage"; it's disqualified by "immunity to this Con damage", and the Con damage from Hellfire comes one point at a time, so you're immune to it.

[Bakkan]

Chronos, what text are you referring to? I see no phrase of the form "immune to this Constitution damage" in the Hellfire Warlock class description.

[Necroticplague]

I would also disallow strongheart hellfire, though for a different reason than the FAQ author. Strongheart Vest doesn't make you immune to Con damage in general, since a big wallop of it (a strong poison, say) could still get through. But Hellfire isn't disqualified by "immunity to Con damage"; it's disqualified by "immunity to this Con damage", and the Con damage from Hellfire comes one point at a time, so you're immune to it.

Wrong. Here's the relevant text:

Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
It just checks for immunity to constitution damage overall.

[Talionis]

Shape Soulmeld: Necrocarnum Circlet
Open Least Chakra: Brow

Create one zombie of half your character level. These zombies are Necrocarnum Zombies and slightly smarter and better than normal zombies. It also is fairly easy to make a new zombie if that zombie dies. Not really useful for combat, but they have tons of potential uses.

[Vaz]

FAQ'd, Necrotic Plague.

Talionis; fairly sure (AFB atm) that the circlet is a crown bind and that it's limited by your Meldshaper level (i.e, no Meldshaper level, no Zombie).

[Coidzor]

Talionis; fairly sure (AFB atm) that the circlet is a crown bind and that it's limited by your Meldshaper level (i.e, no Meldshaper level, no Zombie).

Shape Soulmeld: "Your meldshaper level for this soulmeld is equal to one-half your character level."

I can't speak to the text of the specific bind or the text of the specific soulmeld, but you do have a meldshaper level for Shape Soulmeld.