Optimize my monk

[atemu1234]

I was recently challenged to make a good monk encounter for a group of PCs. Now, I need help with this, and it also needs to be a challenge without item support. What I don't want is sarcasm about how giving x class y feat makes it a good monk without being a monk. Any other help, however, is appreciated.

[Leviting]

So you want an optimized VOP monk?

[atemu1234]

So you want an optimized VOP monk?

If you think that's the best feat for it. I just want an encounter on level with the monk without arming him with fifty healing potions and carrying a gnome wizard casting enlarge person every round.

[sideswipe]

I was recently challenged to make a good monk encounter for a group of PCs. Now, I need help with this, and it also needs to be a challenge without item support. What I don't want is sarcasm about how giving x class y feat makes it a good monk without being a monk. Any other help, however, is appreciated.

what level is the party? if they are 10+ make a vampire monk. negative levels on his unarmed strikes. (only one per round)

also you are the DM, so you can tweak monsters. the anthropomorphic creature rules are vague but technically an anthropomorphic cheetah gets its charge x10 and pounce in the same round.

so you have a flurrying monk who charges the party from say 1000ft away and makes a full attack. if you get 2 of them at the same level as the party then it becomes CR party level +2 which is a decently hard encounter for a group of 4 by the rules. the feats they gain can all be to improve the damage of their unarmed strikes (or natural weapons if you can flurry with them, i have never played a monk or looked up the specific ruling but again you are the DM allow it) or improve their chances to hit.

or make an ethereal anth cheetah monk so they hit touch AC. let them go first so they hit touch flat footed also known as 10! (+deflection).

even something as underpowered as a monk can be annoying and even devastating in this circumstance.

[Gavinfoxx]

Please tell us about the party composition, the level, your exact restrictions on gear, what books you have available to you, anything you can about the situation, how comfortable you are using alternative class features, etc. etc. etc.

Thanks!

[Urpriest]

what level is the party? if they are 10+ make a vampire monk. negative levels on his unarmed strikesslam attacks. (only one per round)

FTFY



also you are the DM, so you can tweak monsters. the anthropomorphic creature rules are vague but technically an anthropomorphic cheetah gets its charge x10 and pounce in the same round.

so you have a flurrying monk who charges the party from say 1000ft away and makes a full attack. if you get 2 of them at the same level as the party then it becomes CR party level +2 which is a decently hard encounter for a group of 4 by the rules. the feats they gain can all be to improve the damage of their unarmed strikes (or natural weapons if you can flurry with them, i have never played a monk or looked up the specific ruling but again you are the DM allow it) or improve their chances to hit.

or make an ethereal anth cheetah monk so they hit touch AC. let them go first so they hit touch flat footed also known as 10! (+deflection).

even something as underpowered as a monk can be annoying and even devastating in this circumstance.

This raises a question: are you working with just a single Monk, or can you make an encounter out of several?

What CR are you aiming for?

As a more advanced version of the above, Tippy put together a mean Mercury Dragon Monk that can hit-and-run the party from a significant distance away.

[Rubik]

Optimize the hell out of him and his gear. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[WhamBamSam]

How many monk levels are you taking? Both of them, or just one?


As a more advanced version of the above, Tippy put together a mean Mercury Dragon Monk that can hit-and-run the party from a significant distance away.It uses the interpretation that the Epic Fighter Feat list is a subset of the Fighter Feat list to get Infinite/Exceptional Deflection through Martial Monk, and is more Factotum than Monk. Still, it's a pretty cool thing that might be worth tracking down, and if I recall correctly, was something he put together because his group of players posed him this exact challenge.

If I may toot my own horn, one of the builds in my sig, Nick Snarespan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16886681&postcount=199), is a pretty good monk build, and he's especially strong on his home turf and as an NPC boss who can nova his n/day abilities. If I were using him against a mid-level group, I'd probably bump up the 4th level of Trapsmith and the Nimble Charge skill trick, so that he can layer his base with traps that he beats the search DC for by exactly 5 when taking 20, memorize the result of that search check by taking 10 on Autohypnosis, then run through those traps with impunity while the party can't touch the surface. Naturally, make his base somewhere with walls and ceilings (which should also be carpeted in traps) to prevent flight.

It is a Tash build, though, which might not be what you want. Also, you need to switch the placement of Weapon Finesse and Darkstalker, he currently doesn't qualify for the former due to a mistake on my part.

[A.A.King]

What I don't want is sarcasm about how giving x class y feat makes it a good monk without being a monk. Any other help, however, is appreciated.

How about a non sarcastic question if a Monk X / Something Else Y (Y > X) multiclass still qualifies as a monk in your book? Or to put it differently: How many monk levels should the monk have?

Also: There is this great monk handbook I don't believe has been linked to yet (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10747.0)

[atemu1234]

How about a non sarcastic question if a Monk X / Something Else Y (Y > X) multiclass still qualifies as a monk in your book? Or to put it differently: How many monk levels should the monk have?

Also: There is this great monk handbook I don't believe has been linked to yet (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10747.0)

I'd prefer single class monk, but something with greater than half its HD in monk is still viable.

[WhamBamSam]

I'd prefer single class monk, but something with greater than half its HD in monk is still viable.What CR? A Monk 6/X 5 (maybe with a few more CR from a good template) might be hammered into a feasible enemy at mid levels. There is never, ever, ever a reason to take more than 6 levels of Monk. There is almost never a good reason to take more than 2.

How do you feel about Martial Monk cheese?

[Rubik]

Take my build, replace monk levels with Psywar and Tashalatora, and proceed to buff up and kick butt.

[Gavinfoxx]

You could do this, it's a bit simpler than rubik's build:

Combine:
Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324)
Holy Strike (Complete Champion, or the unholy one, depending on the alignment of the foes)
Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor)
Resistant Body (Planar Handbook, whatever elemental damage they mostly use)
the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon and Frostburn (or the one from BoED if the party is evil)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If this is supposed to be a challenging/fun encounter for a group of PCs, what level does it need to be?

You could just put some Monk levels on a dragon and call it a day.

A Martial Monk gets a Fighter bonus feat at its 1st, 2nd, and 6th levels. Since you get a Fighter bonus feat at the 2nd and 6th levels, you should be able to trade those for the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape. Go with a large size race, such as a Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) Dwarf, he can get Improved Trip at Martial Monk 1 without meeting its prerequisites, give him Knock-Back (RoS), Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), Combat Reflexes, and (Improved) Multiattack. He can full attack with unarmed strikes, then make two secondary slam attacks that still add one and a half times his Str bonus to damage, and every hit sends the opponent tumbling backward across the floor, often smashing into a wall or other obstacle for astronomical damage. Anyone he hits has to spend a move action to get up from prone and another move action to get back into melee with him, so every time he attacks or makes an AoO he wastes the target's entire next round. He should use slam attacks for AoOs, but they're still punches!

[A.A.King]

Personally my favorite monk build is a halfing monk:

Halfling Monk 2 / Rogue 1 / Halfling monk +3 (5) / Rogue +3 (4)
(If higher then level 9 then it is all Rogue except for a 2 level Swordsage dip)

Take the Halfing Monk Substitution levels 1 and 2 which grant you Skirmish instead of Flurry of blows at level 1 and Weapon Finesse as bonus feat at level 2.
Take Stunning Fist as feat as bonus feat at level 1
Take Carmine Monk & Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) at level 1, Ascetic Rogue at level 3 and Swift Ambush er at level 6 (this allows you to gain extra skirmish by treating your Rogue levels as Scout levels)

Trade away the Monks Evasion for Invisible Fist to make sneak attack easier
Trade away Still mind for Prayerful Meditation
Trade away Ki Strike (magic) for Holy Strike.

At level 9 this grants you an Unarmed Damage of 1d8 + Strength Modifier (probably 0) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 2d6 Skirmish.


However they challenged you to making a good Monk encounter, so you might want to look at builds which truly optimize Monk features instead of trading it all away for something like Wild shape. Might I suggestion optimizing around Stunning Fist? Think of feat combos like

Stunning Fist + Pharaoh's Fist + Pain Touch + Ring the Golden Bell

Use Ring the Golden Bell to make an Unarmed Attack at range with which you deliver a Pharaoh's Fist, forcing everyone to make a fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round and nauseated for the round after that.

[Mato]

Optimize the hell out of him and his gear. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)It reminds me of a Tippy post, half illegal and the other half based on content so broken even the MMX board refuses to suggest it. Example, it lists iron will increasing it's fort save and manyfanged multiplying dice (illegal) & item familiar and the dark chaos shuffle and infinite wishes (broken).

Broken One Dark Moon Disciple Invisible Fist Holy Strike Passive Way Monk 9 / Shiba Protecter 1 / Psionic Fist 5 / Swordsage 2 / Yourchoice3
Dragon allowed? Paladin 2 with the serenity feat gives you your wisdom bonus to saves. You can also take smith to song for inspire courage.

PB32
A: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8. <- Superior after Shiba.
B: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8. <- Better for the level 1~5 range.

Feats
A: Battle jump, knock down, skill focus(bluff), mantis leap, combat reflexes, robilar's gambit, snap kick.
B: Combat reflexes, any, any, planar focus(catalogues of enlightenment[kobold domain]), mantis leap, snap kick, robilar's gambit, any.
Wild talent & alertness from flaws
Improved unarmed strike, combat expertise, improved trip & track from monk bonus feats.
Iron will from the otyugh hole and if desired skill focus(disable) from the iron wyrm vault.
A for basic progression, b for retraining or starting at higher levels.

Notable items
A wand of greater mighty wallop, fanged ring, a ring of evasion, monk's belt, normal gear. Excluding lost or replaced gear such as the sandals of tiger's leap and torc of the titans.
Theoretical: four shards of ectoplasmic fist (limit 1/limb suggests stackable, damage tables are infinite).
Additional equipment suggestions: Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29) & Bunko's Bargin Basement (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1002.0).

Notes
Modeled after the matrix monk (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195532#msg195532).

For offense it starts out as a typical charger using it's bonus feats to jump ahead of the curve, sandals of tiger's leap and knock-down come in early for near one hit kills that trip foes (up +17 before str/size) that survive. At the 9th level it can charge multiple times per move action which finalizes ubercharging. By the 15th it attempts one-hit-kills each time an opponent attacks it. Unarmed damage can reach 64d8 with the material listed and if your DM wants to deny that then you can still deliver 12d8+str&wis*2 per AoO anyway by using snap kick.

For defense, at the 2nd level it can turn invisible for one round during each encounter. If an opponent doesn't know where you are they pretty much can't attack you, if they do you have a 50% miss chance before AC is factored. Spell casters even if they know where you are or not are unable of directly targeting you (say with sleep or slow). At the 7th level your cloaking powers becomes a constantly sustained supernatural ability based on hiding in shadows, see invisibility, true seeing, and mindsight cannot break through this. And the 9th level you can perpetually use blink which gives you a 20% chance to negate any none-force spell from affecting you, be it disjunction or holy word. Psionically you can use claws of the vampire and body adjustment to heal hp loss and body purification to heal ability damage without needing items.

For utility its defense offers ever upgrading unbeatable stealth, including the abiliy to walk through doors that would otherwise give you away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html). It also has the ability to track key NPCs since the DCs are so low you won't need more than a rank or two. Since you don't need ranks in hide or really anything, as part of the feat retraining you can pick up planar touchstone for the kobold domain and acquire trapfinding. Sink two of your three skills in search and disable to replace the rogue/factotum of the party.

Other than having the offense of a barbarian's dream, stealth like a rogue's wish, and survivability like persist using cleric you don't have too many tricks so equipment equipment equipment. Tweak as desired.

[Rubik]

It reminds me of a Tippy post, half illegal and the other half based on content so broken even the MMX board refuses to suggest it. Example, it lists iron will increasing it's fort save and manyfanged multiplying dice (illegal) & item familiar and the dark chaos shuffle and infinite wishes (broken).Manyfanged multiplies your damage by four. How is that illegal?

And I made a typo with Iron Will. The build also has Great Fortitude, so the numbers are correct. That doesn't mean it's illegal; it's just a mistake. Fixing it now.

The "broken" is on a monk. They need everything they can get to keep up. Could you build an effective monk with Weapon Focus and Skill Focus?

[Mato]

Manyfanged multiplies your damage by four. How is that illegal?

Multiplying Damage
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.
I'll let it sit in the back of my mind that you're willing to fix any errors in it in case I find more later on I'mm PM them rather than post them publicly.

[Rubik]

I'll let it sit in the back of my mind that you're willing to fix any errors in it in case I find more later on I'll PM them rather than post them publicly.The manyfang dagger deals additional damage because it strikes four different times with one attack roll, which is why I left it in like that.

Though you are correct. Normally you couldn't deal +XdY damage and have it multiply like that.

I'll have to ask Tippy and see if I have to edit that out.