'Optimizing' a Vow of Poverty Fighter!?

[lonewulf]

Me and a friend were joking about how terrible a Vow of Poverty Fighter build would be. But then I started to wonder...can it be made into an actual, viable, build? Can it actually be 'optimized'? Can it even be made 'fun'? I'm curious to see what you guys can come up with! Post your ideas and have fun with it!

[Gavinfoxx]

This would mostly be done to get flight and supernatural abilities and such from race and feats. Incarnum would be heavy in the build, I expect. I think there is a thread which explored how much useful stuff you could get from races, level adjustment, feats, etc. etc., somewhere...

[ArqArturo]

You need flight.

I'd suggest a human dragonborn, or a raptoran.

[Pluto!]

If you wait until level 18 (or whatever the level the feat slot just before you start playing is) to take VoP, and spend all your loot up to that point on grafts, tomes and other permanently-bound items, does that still count for the purposes of this exercise?

[Jeff the Green]

Huh. Well, I'd start with a dragonborn warforged, using flaws to get Sacred Vow, Adamantine Body, and Dragon Wings at first level, along with the warforged ACF. Second level also take the ACF to get Silver or Cold Iron Tracery. Get IUAS, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, Second Slam, Power Attack, ToB feats, and Beast Strike as fighter feats (dunno what else to add), and VoP, Improved Dragon Wings, the other Tracery, Improved Natural Attack, Entangling Exhalation, and Jaws of Death as regular feats.

It solves several problems with VoP (poor armor, no flight, no items to provide immunities, etc.), can entangle well, and has a decent attack routine (UAS + Snap Kick + three natural weapons). Not good, but not horrible either.

Edit:
Y'know, I forgot dungeoncrasher and zhentarim. To use those, use the wings aspect, freeing up three feats. One of those to take Silver/Cold Iron Tracery, the other to get incarnum feats.

[lonewulf]

Huh. Well, I'd start with a dragonborn warforged, using flaws to get Sacred Vow, Adamantine Body, and Dragon Wings at first level, along with the warforged ACF. Second level also take the ACF to get Silver or Cold Iron Tracery. Get IUAS, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, Second Slam, Power Attack, and Beast Strike as fighter feats (dunno what else to add), and VoP, Improved Dragon Wings, the other Tracery, Improved Natural Attack, Entangling Exhalation, and Jaws of Death as regular feats.

It solves several problems with VoP (poor armor, no flight, no items to provide immunities, etc.), can entangle well, and has a decent attack routine (UAS + Snap Kick + three natural weapons). Not good, but not horrible either.

Considering my love of Warforged...i love this build, lol.

[OldTrees1]

Dragonborn(Wings) Half Ogre Half Minotaur Water Orc Fighter(Zhentarim Soldier, Dungeoncrasher, Thug) 9

Feats:
1st) Sacred Vow
Ftr1) Thug ACF
Ftr2) Dungeoncrasher 1 ACF
3rd) Vow of Poverty
Ftr3) Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Ftr4) Power Attack
VoP4) Nymph's Kiss
6th) Imperious Command
Ftr6) Dungeoncrasher 2 ACF
VoP6) Resounding Blow
Ftr8) Improved Bullrush
VoP8) Nimbus of Light
9th) Knockback

Abilities: 32 point buy
Str 26, Con 18, Dex 12(+2 @ 7th), Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14(+1 @ 4th & 8th)

Skills:
4 * (L+3) + (L-3)
Intimidate[Max ranks]
Diplomacy[Max ranks] (spend on Z Soldier levels)
Bluff[Max ranks]
Spot[Max cross class ranks]
Listen[cross class ranks from Nymph's Kiss]

In combat: Cowerlock one foe while you dungeoncrash the others into pulp.
Out of combat: You are the face of the party

[Flickerdart]

If you wait until level 18 (or whatever the level the feat slot just before you start playing is) to take VoP, and spend all your loot up to that point on grafts, tomes and other permanently-bound items, does that still count for the purposes of this exercise?
The problem with that is you don't gain any of the bonus feats, losing out on something like half of the feat's benefits.Probably still more powerful, though.

[cosmonuts]

Is paying a spellcaster to dark chaos feat shuffle an option? I don't know how you're lugging that money around, but if you've got a devoted friend (through leadership or whatever), they can do it for you.

[Ellowryn]

Do you mean Fighter 20 with VoP, or can you dip something like barbarian or get a PrC? Also, is leadership or any class that grants an ability like it allowed?

[bekeleven]

If you wait until level 18 (or whatever the level the feat slot just before you start playing is) to take VoP, and spend all your loot up to that point on grafts, tomes and other permanently-bound items, does that still count for the purposes of this exercise?

As a note, the DMG avoids saying that your WBL must be historically accurate. I used this to justify a level 15 character selecting adamantine full plate as his item familiar at level 3. Your use seems somewhat more abusive but no different rules-wise.


The problem with that is you don't gain any of the bonus feats, losing out on something like half of the feat's benefits.Probably still more powerful, though.

As a fighter, how many exalted feats benefit you?

Nymph's Kiss, Touch of golden ice, and a bunch of feats that give you +1 or +2 to rolls you'll never make. The list is a wasteland.

[lonewulf]

Well the point was to make this a Fighter 20 with Vow of Poverty at the earliest level (1 or 3, depending) though I didn't bother to state that in my first post.

[Angelalex242]

Could restrict it to human fighters, or anything that gets a human bonus feat (like Half Celestial, so you can fly!) so you can take VOP at level 1.

Servant/Favored/Knight
Gift of Faith
Subduing Strike/Holy Subdual (Must wield a holy sword now...)
Intuitive Attack if your fighter is wiser then strong
Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance, Stigmata
Nymph's Kiss **** (Get this FIRST!)
Resounding Blow/Quell the Profane
Vow of Abstinence, Chastity, Obedience, Purity
Sanctify Martial Strike
Sanctify Natural Attack (if unarmed fighter)
Touch of Golden Ice (If unarmed fighter...)
Words of Creation (If you're a half celestial with spell like abilities.)

Which is the sum total of everything a fighter could use out of book of exalted deeds.

[Derpldorf]

Grab a cohort feat. Role play as a married couple, your extremely bad with money and tend to lose it quickly, your wife/husband travels with you and insists she/he be in control of your shares of the loot/profit/whatever. Baggering and browbeating optional but recomended.

[Angelalex242]

Exalted characters (and you must be exalted to have that vow) can't bend the rules like that, sadly.

[Tvtyrant]

I think going Spear for two handed damage and jump into the power attack charger line would be your best bet. Lots of damage, doesn't interfere with your vows.

[eggynack]

Could restrict it to human fighters, or anything that gets a human bonus feat (like Half Celestial, so you can fly!) so you can take VOP at level 1.

Servant/Favored/Knight
Gift of Faith
Subduing Strike/Holy Subdual (Must wield a holy sword now...)
Intuitive Attack if your fighter is wiser then strong
Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance, Stigmata
Nymph's Kiss **** (Get this FIRST!)
Resounding Blow/Quell the Profane
Vow of Abstinence, Chastity, Obedience, Purity
Sanctify Martial Strike
Sanctify Natural Attack (if unarmed fighter)
Touch of Golden Ice (If unarmed fighter...)
Words of Creation (If you're a half celestial with spell like abilities.)

Which is the sum total of everything a fighter could use out of book of exalted deeds.
Yeah, and most of those don't even do all that much. You also get a couple of mediocre feats in champions of valor, the best of whom likely being knight of the red falcon, which grants a +1 to AC when you're adjacent to multiple enemies.

Exalted characters (and you must be exalted to have that vow) can't bend the rules like that, sadly.
Your character has to be exalted, and thus can't purposefully bend the rules. You, however, don't, and you can have him "unintentionally" lose whatever money you wish.

[Jeff the Green]

Grab a cohort feat. Role play as a married couple, your extremely bad with money and tend to lose it quickly, your wife/husband travels with you and insists she/he be in control of your shares of the loot/profit/whatever. Baggering and browbeating optional but recomended.

Doesn't work, regardless of whether you fall for such shenanigans. You must claim your share of the lot and you must donate that share to a worthy cause.

However... while you can't have wealth, there's no reason you can't accept favors for quest rewards. You could, for example, go on a quest for a fleshwarper and accept a graft as payment, or a wizard and permanent enlarge person. And it says explicitly that Good churches are likely to view you in an extremely favorable light and provide similar services.

[Angelalex242]

...I wouldn't let a player get away with bending rules.

Personally, on the DM side, I have great compassion for Paladins and Exalted characters (and players) who act in good faith, in the spirit of the rules.

You only lose your grace if you start asking 'what can I get away with?' And I'm perfectly happy to answer moral dilemma questions requiring no more then a knowledge religion check. "You remember the holy book of Heiroenus, in this situation, says do X..."

[Gavinfoxx]

Go ACF diving. Zhentarim, Thug, Dungeon Crasher, Physical Prowess, etc. etc.

[137beth]

Is a swordsage dip allowed? Specifically the Unarmed variety, since you are going to be using unarmed strikes a lot.

[Ellowryn]

Doesn't work, regardless of whether you fall for such shenanigans. You must claim your share of the lot and you must donate that share to a worthy cause.

However... while you can't have wealth, there's no reason you can't accept favors for quest rewards. You could, for example, go on a quest for a fleshwarper and accept a graft as payment, or a wizard and permanent enlarge person. And it says explicitly that Good churches are likely to view you in an extremely favorable light and provide similar services.

This part of the reason i asked if Leadership or it's equivalent was allowed. While "giving" your share of the loot to your cohort is against the spirit of the vow, you do under normal circumstances give some of your wealth to him. Having a cleric or Arcane Disciple wizard as a companion to an exalted character is not out of bounds of the spirit of the vow, and they should get some of your wealth, just not all of it.

On the ACF spam, while some of those features are worthwhile, unfortunately for the most part they trade away FBF which will hurt more than help in this situation where you cant get items that are better than what you are giving up.

[Curmudgeon]

Y'know, I forgot dungeoncrasher and zhentarim.
Zhentarim Soldier is unavailable for any Exalted character. The Zhentarim is detailed in Champions of Ruin in the "Evil Organizations" section.
There is no real prerequisite for joining, other than a willingness to follow orders—which usually entails committing evil acts.

[OldTrees1]

Zhentarim Soldier is unavailable for any Exalted character. The Zhentarim is detailed in Champions of Ruin in the "Evil Organizations" section.

That is not a prohibition although one has to be lucky to avoid the evil tasks.

Alternatively you can join at 3rd level, leave at 4th level and still qualify for 5th and 9th levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

Or you could, you know, remove the fluff of the capability from anything to do with the Zhentarim and just give it to fighters.

Not like they couldn't use the bump.

[Flickerdart]

That is not a prohibition although one has to be lucky to avoid the evil tasks.
I'm very interested in how you plan to actively support the goals of an Evil organization and still lay claim to Exalted status. Even if you're not currently piledriving babies, the work you do is furthering an Evil cause.

[Doc_Maynot]

Int and Wis of about five each?

[Derpldorf]

Doesn't work, regardless of whether you fall for such shenanigans. You must claim your share of the lot and you must donate that share to a worthy cause.

Supporting your family isn't a worthy cause? What would your poor clan do without that money? The farms aren't producing as much grain as they used to, if that money stops flowing your village will starve. :(

[Jeff the Green]

I'm very interested in how you plan to actively support the goals of an Evil organization and still lay claim to Exalted status. Even if you're not currently piledriving babies, the work you do is furthering an Evil cause.

A very high Bluff score. They tell you to pile drive babies, you free them, and tell them there's too little left over to show them because you ate them once you were done.


Supporting your family isn't a worthy cause? What would your poor clan do without that money? The farms aren't producing as much grain as they used to, if that money stops flowing your village will starve. :(

No, it's not. Or at least, it's not after a point. By the time your family could afford even a potion of cure minor wounds, they're fairly comfortably off.

However, I did misremember the text. You're required to donate a majority of your share of the loot to charity. So technically, your cohort could have 49% of your WBL, but you'd still be restricted from using any of it. And it's not really in the spirit of things.

[Ellowryn]

Why is the vow you have taken to give to the needy supposed to hurt your valued and trusted ally? That's sort of like saying you took the VoP and now EVERYONE in the group must donate the majority of their income. I believe there is nothing wrong with giving some of your share to your cohort. He is there to assist you with your lofty goals, but he doesn't have to abide by your strict measures (unless you give the feat to him too).

[Jeff the Green]

Why is the vow you have taken to give to the needy supposed to hurt your valued and trusted ally? That's sort of like saying you took the VoP and now EVERYONE in the group must donate the majority of their income. I believe there is nothing wrong with giving some of your share to your cohort. He is there to assist you with your lofty goals, but he doesn't have to abide by your strict measures (unless you give the feat to him too).

At least in games I've played, cohorts get their own WBL since they start with it and level up on their own.

[Gemini476]

You should probably take the Dragonscale Husk ACF for the Fighter. While it limits you to +2 Dex to AC and therefore probably lowers your AC a bit (the AC granted from VoP overtakes DH at level 9* and neither of them stack), it gives you a way better version of Energy Resistance. 5 at 5th level, 10 at 10th, 15 at 15th and 20 at 20th, as opposed to VoP's 5 at 13th and 15 at 20th. DH doesn't give sonic resistance, though, so you'll need to fall back on VoP for that.

You get all of that for the low low price of your Heavy Armor Proficiency, which you weren't going to use anyway. You can shed the scales within 10 minutes if you need that extra AC for some reason, but regrowing the husk takes eight hours (and can be done in your sleep).


Incidentally, those that are considering Warforged for Adamantine Body should be aware that armor bonuses don't stack with Vow of Poverty's exalted AC Bonus.


*Dragonscale Husk is 6+1/3 level with a maximum +2 from dex, and VoP is 4+1/3 level+1/6 level+1/8 level with unlimited dex.

[OldTrees1]

I'm very interested in how you plan to actively support the goals of an Evil organization and still lay claim to Exalted status. Even if you're not currently piledriving babies, the work you do is furthering an Evil cause.
Wait, you can only get organization substitution levels if you actively support the goals of the organization? I thought you merely had to avail yourself of their training methods?

So Exalted Double Agent within the Evil Organization, working first to preserve their purity, and second to sabotage the Evil organization. The high Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate would certainly come in handy to maintain the charade.

[Ellowryn]

But you don't HAVE to activate the scales, which is nice. The scales give you a nice early game boost to ac, and then at later levels you activate to get the energy resistance if you think you will need it for the day.

And jeff, that's actually a nice idea, ill try and remember that the next time i can get leadership and bring it up with my DM.

[Anlashok]

Is paying a spellcaster to dark chaos feat shuffle an option? I don't know how you're lugging that money around, but if you've got a devoted friend (through leadership or whatever), they can do it for you.

Ask all quest givers to pay you in crossbows and find a spellcaster who accepts the crossbow as legal tender for the shuffle.

[Jeff the Green]

And jeff, that's actually a nice idea, ill try and remember that the next time i can get leadership and bring it up with my DM.

It should just kind of happen naturally. Your cohort counts as a character for the purpose of calculating XP even if it gets its own XP in a different way, so when your DM hands out encounter-appropriate treasure, you should be getting enough wealth to accommodate that extra WBL.

[ArqArturo]

I know a lot of people in the forums are adamant in that VoP makes a character rather limited in the sense that they lack plenty of the bells and whistles a regular player has (as in magical items). However, I do believe that an exalted fighter without Leadership jockey is viable. And I find it funny because, to me, Leadership for someone with magical items is like playing golf:

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/World+Golf+Championships+Bridgestone+Invitational+ _2-7uWP2WoEl.jpg

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

So, if I had to be a VoP fighter, these would be my steps:

1.- Pick a warforged dragonborn (Jeff the Green's idea, which I like) with the adamantine body feat, and pick flaws to get VoP at level 1.
2.- At enough levels, pick Pious Templar on your favorite deity (I like the Asgardian pantheon).
3.- Then take Fist of Raziel.

I know it's not the most pure of fighter builds, but it gives you a lot of decent stuff to work with. Then again, I'm limited by the books I own.

[Ellowryn]

The problem is that this is supposed to be a Fighter 20 build.

And yes, the cohort is going to be like a caddy, except instead of covering for infidelity imean handing over golfclubs they will be handing out the buffs needed to keep the fighter relevant, while tossing out whatever else the class can do on its own.

[ArqArturo]

If that's gonna be the case, the caddy should be a halfling druid with a supermount.

[SinsI]

Play a Black Dragon fighter. In that case VoP is actually extremely good - since you have no Treasure, all those pesky dragonslayers try to be as far away from you as possible.

[Snowbluff]

You need flight.

I'd suggest a human dragonborn, or a raptoran.

Alternatively, you can pick up the Dragon Wing feat line, if you're avoiding templates.

[OldTrees1]

Alternatively, you can pick up the Dragon Wing feat line, if you're avoiding templates.
Or the Aberrant Blood feat line. 2 feats for Flight (same or shorter length than Dragon Wing's feat tree), +1 feat for Reach.

[Seppo87]

Yes it can be optimized.

Play a Tashalatora STP Erudite

-no need for weapons (you have your fists)
-no need for a book or spell components
-no need for equipment (you can achieve any imaginable effect on your own)

You can, however:
-manifest Body Outside Body, and your copies will have VOP as well so they are fully buffed
-manifest/cast giant size, greater mighty wallop, mage's transform (full BaB etc)

EDIT: sorry I didn't realize you wanted a literal fighter

[Gemini476]

So would it be possible to make a decent-ish Ubercharger out of this? Shock Trooper+Power Attack+Knockback+Dungeoncrasher could be pretty hilarious, although you'll need some way to be a Large dragonborn. What are there for cheap ways to be Large that aren't removed by the psuedotemplate?
You have access to a two-handed weapon, incidentally: the quarterstaff. It's also a double weapon if you want to go TWF instead, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Now then, let's look at the List of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) and see what we need and how we can get it.

Flight
Dragonborn or Raptoran, probably the first. Any dragonblooded race can also get dragon wings in two feats, so that's also an option.

Mind Blank
The aforementioned cohort with a Banner of LawHoB p.133 works fine, although you might want a Banner of Good. Otherwise being undead via Necropolitan might be an option; this covers a lot of immunities, so is worth considering. Just don't get the Vow of Purity.

Stun negation
Necropolitan works, although do consider what your cohort could do to protect you. You also have somewhat high saves, which may stop you being stunned in the first place.

Daze negation
You're pretty screwed if you're Dazed, so if you do go the Cohort route it should be someone that has the ability to remove daze. If there is such an ability.

Fear immunity
Fear is mind-affecting, you know? Necropolitan.

True Seeing
You get this at level 18, but that's a bit late. I don't know how to get it earlier in a straight-classed Fighter. There are some melds you can shape that give See Invisibility, but it's not really the same thing.

Miss chances
Sheesh. Yeah, you'll need this. One fun(?) option is Vow of Peace, which makes manufactured weapons that hit you need to make a fortitude save or break. Vow of Peace is even more disruptive than Poverty, though.

Tactical teleportation
Take Martial Study(Shadow Jaunt) at 4th level, perhaps?

Immunity to Death effects and/or energy drain and/or negative energy effects. (Lumped together because most things that protect against one of them protect against them all.)
Necropolitan, again.

Freedom of Movement
You get this at level 14, although that's a bit late as well. I don't really know how to get this through feats. I guess you could just try to optimize grappling, but that's a fool's game.

(Extradimensional) storage space
You don't actually need this! Let the party do it for you. Although you might need to carry the Bag o' Donations, so don't skimp on the Strength.

Dispel Magic and its counters
Well, I guess that's one way to handle you. Most of your abilities are (Su), after all, and you'll probably like it if the party Cleric buffs you. I guess you'll need to leave the countering to them, however.

Initiative
I guess feats and Dexterity are the way to go. Warforged Fighters can get +3 initiative in exchange for their level 1 feat, by the way. Just in case you don't want to be undead.

Special senses
Oh boy. The List of Stuff (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1412.0) lists very few ways to get special senses:
Blindsight can be gotten via the Shadow Mantle soulmeld (which also gives total concealment, in the form of blindsight and magical darkness for 5' per essentia). Can be binded via Open Lesser Chakra at level 12.
Blindsense can be gotten via the Psionic feat Focused Perception, the Mind aspect of Dragonborn at level 15 (which means you're spending two feats on flight), the Yrthank Mask (move action, 10' per essentia, level 12) soulmeld, the Glaring Eye draconic graft (but VoP), and the Hearing the Air stance (Fighter level 18).
Necropolitan comes to the rescue again, since it gives you access to the Lifesense feat. It lets you see living things.

And that's pretty much it.


It seems to me that being a Necropolitan Dragonborn Human would be the way to go. Lots of immunities, flight, and lifesense.
Something along these lines, perhaps:
Dragonborn (Wings) Necropolitan Half-Minotaur Human Dragonscale Husk Dungeon Crasher Fighter 20 (Necropolitan undertaken at level 3 and Dragonborn undertaken shortly thereafter at level 2.)
Becoming Necropolitan is preferably done near a Desecrated altar dedicated to the caster's god/ideal, so you get that tasty +2 hp/HD. You need it, since losing Constitution hurts.

1 Sacred Vow
1H Toughness - You lose this feat by going Dragonborn. Might as well have some extra durability until then, though.
1F Power Attack
3 Quicken Spell- Same as above, except this feat is lost during the process of going Necropolitan. Oh, and the feat is useless since you aren't even keeping it a full level.
3 Vow of Poverty - The Rite of Crucimigration costs 3,000gp and the egg created in the Rite of Rebirth costs 100gp. Move this to level 1 if you can figure out some fluffy justification (a thank-you for donations?) and have Dragonborn take an Exalted feat instead.
4F Improved Bull Rush
4E Nymph's Kiss - +1 skill point/level is badly needed for the Fighter.
6 Lifesense - While this does not let you locate undead and constructs, those generally aren't the ones to be worrying about as a Necropolitan.
6E Nimbus of Light - I have almost run out of good Exalted feats. This one makes you into a nite-lite.
8F Shock Trooper - You can now take -8 to AC to add +16 to damage. Or bull rush people into walls for 8d6+3*Str damage, I guess.
8E
9 Knockback - This is why you are large - being able to knock people into walls multiple times in a Full Attack.
10F Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) - Tactical 1/encounter 50ft standard action teleportation. In case of Solid Fog or big monsters grappling.
10E

It cuts off halfway through since there are only half a dozen Exalted feats that are any good and half of them have [general] feats as prerequisites.
You could totally make an Ubercharger with VoP, though. Or maybe do something funny with Vow of Peace and Subduing Strike - the mini-Starmantle Cloak that is it's anti-weaponry ability is glorious. I only didn't go for it in that attempted build up there since it doesn't play well with Dungeoncrasher.

[Snowbluff]

The Necropolitan needs to grab Human Heritage. :smalltongue:

[Gemini476]

The Necropolitan needs to grab Human Heritage. :smalltongue:

...Why? You lose pretty much everything Necropolitan gives you that way, since Human Heritage turns you into a Humanoid(Human).
Which is the second time I've seen a feat change your type, but whatever.

[Rubik]

...Why? You lose pretty much everything Necropolitan gives you that way, since Human Heritage turns you into a Humanoid(Human).
Which is the second time I've seen a feat change your type, but whatever.You keep all of your undead immunities, but you count as humanoid (human), so Disrupt Undead, Control Undead, Command Undead, and Turn/Rebuke Undead all fail to affect you.

[Curmudgeon]

It seems to me that being a Necropolitan Dragonborn Human would be the way to go.
Even assuming someone else was covering the cost of the Ritual of Crucimigration for you, that's not an available option for any character who's Exalted.
Upon hearing the petitioner’s last breath, the ritual leader calls forth the names of evil powers and gods to forge a link with the Negative Energy Plane, and then impales the petitioner. Dying, the petitioner is reborn as a necropolitan, dead but animate. Voluntarily subjecting yourself to Evil magic, even if it doesn't change your alignment, is out of the question for the rigorous alignment restrictions of Exalted characters.

Going about it in the other order (Exalted after Necropolitan) would work from a rules perspective, but you'd lose out on the feats that you'd get from Vow of Poverty (minimum 4 feats lost: 2 before you could afford the Ritual of Crucimigration, and then 2-3 more because you don't start getting those free Exalted feats until you acquire both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty) after becoming Undead. Coming up short by 4-5 Exalted feats cuts significantly into the benefits of Vow of Poverty. :smallannoyed:

[eggynack]

Coming up short by 4-5 Exalted feats cuts significantly into the benefits of Vow of Poverty. :smallannoyed:
I don't know that that's necessarily true. Exalted feats are mostly terrible, and it doesn't take that long before nymph's kiss and touch of golden ice become frigging defender of the homeland and knight of stars. Can you really say that not getting a situational +1 once a day is a significant loss? I don't even think that it really becomes one when you're talking about five feats on that approximate scale. So, if you can put together an exalted feat list that doesn't end with a pile of crap, then sure, significant lost benefits, but I'm pretty doubtful. Even the noble druid, king of VoP, usually ends its exalted feat list with at least some quantity of really useless stuff.

[ArqArturo]

I don't know that that's necessarily true. Exalted feats are mostly terrible, and it doesn't take that long before nymph's kiss and touch of golden ice become frigging defender of the homeland and knight of stars. Can you really say that not getting a situational +1 once a day is a significant loss? I don't even think that it really becomes one when you're talking about five feats on that approximate scale. So, if you can put together an exalted feat list that doesn't end with a pile of crap, then sure, significant lost benefits, but I'm pretty doubtful. Even the noble druid, king of VoP, usually ends its exalted feat list with at least some quantity of really useless stuff.

Forgotten Realms has some extra Exalted Feats, such as Blessed of the Seven Sisters, Gift of Discernment (also known as Logic), and Champions of Valor also has other Exalted feats.

Edit: D'oh!.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't know that that's necessarily true. Exalted feats are mostly terrible, and it doesn't take that long before nymph's kiss and touch of golden ice become frigging defender of the homeland and knight of stars.
The thing about the optimized VoP Fighter is that they're fighting unarmed, and unarmed strikes are both natural weapons and valid targets for Weapon Focus. Consequently, they can apply all of these to their primary attack form:

Sanctify Ki Strike
Sanctify Martial Strike
Sanctify Natural Attack

These Exalted feats are all conditional on having Evil opponents, but the benefits are on every hit — much better than once a day. So yes, I think coming up short by 4-5 Exalted feats is going to be significant. An extra +3d4 damage, 5 times with a full attack, could easily mean taking down a creature a round sooner. And since VoP means you're fighting unarmored, avoiding a full counterattack is pretty important.

[Talya]

Adamantine Body

This isn't worth the feat. It doesn't stack with the VOP armor bonus which eventually passes it at level 15.

[SaintRidley]

The thing about the optimized VoP Fighter is that they're fighting unarmed, and unarmed strikes are both natural weapons and valid targets for Weapon Focus. Consequently, they can apply all of these to their primary attack form:

Sanctify Ki Strike
Sanctify Martial Strike
Sanctify Natural Attack

These Exalted feats are all conditional on having Evil opponents, but the benefits are on every hit — much better than once a day. So yes, I think coming up short by 4-5 Exalted feats is going to be significant. An extra +3d4 damage, 5 times with a full attack, could easily mean taking down a creature a round sooner. And since VoP means you're fighting unarmored, avoiding a full counterattack is pretty important.

I kind of want to make an Exalter Fighter, call him Beowulf, and have him fight naked and weaponless because he's honorable like that.

[Snowbluff]

I contest Ridley's sainthood. The dude totally murdered my idol's family.

[eggynack]

The thing about the optimized VoP Fighter is that they're fighting unarmed, and unarmed strikes are both natural weapons and valid targets for Weapon Focus. Consequently, they can apply all of these to their primary attack form:

Sanctify Ki Strike
Sanctify Martial Strike
Sanctify Natural Attack

These Exalted feats are all conditional on having Evil opponents, but the benefits are on every hit — much better than once a day. So yes, I think coming up short by 4-5 Exalted feats is going to be significant. An extra +3d4 damage, 5 times with a full attack, could easily mean taking down a creature a round sooner. And since VoP means you're fighting unarmored, avoiding a full counterattack is pretty important.
That's three, and you can't even take one of them, because fighters don't get ki strike to my knowledge. I'll be generous to your list, and add touch of golden ice and nymph's kiss, because they're both excellent. Now we have four or five, out of eleven, and half of them are mediocre weapon supremacy, with one eating up one of your actual good feats, on top of the two consumed by VoP, for weapon focus.

Now you just need about, say, four more. That would get you up to eight feats, which would put you a reasonable distance past the feat lacking version, in terms of feat utility. So, what amazing feats are we going with? Crappy and situational negotiator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#negotiator), along with all of the utility of any sort of light producing item? Should I move on from that to stigmata, with all of its marginal healing power? Should the next one be one of the crappy vows? It's mostly pretty terrible. I mean, really, even the ones you listed are pretty bad, except it becomes harder to see that through the haze of crappy exalted feats. This just doesn't seem anywhere close to a significant loss.

[Talya]

That's three, and you can't even take one of them, because fighters don't get ki strike to my knowledge. I'll be generous to your list, and add touch of golden ice and nymph's kiss, because they're both excellent. Now we have four or five, out of eleven, and half of them are mediocre weapon supremacy, with one eating up one of your actual good feats, on top of the two consumed by VoP, for weapon focus.

Now you just need about, say, four more. That would get you up to eight feats, which would put you a reasonable distance past the feat lacking version, in terms of feat utility. So, what amazing feats are we going with? Crappy and situational negotiator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#negotiator), along with all of the utility of any sort of light producing item? Should I move on from that to stigmata, with all of its marginal healing power? Should the next one be one of the crappy vows? It's mostly pretty terrible. I mean, really, even the ones you listed are pretty bad, except it becomes harder to see that through the haze of crappy exalted feats. This just doesn't seem anywhere close to a significant loss.

Now, I don't know...how optimized are we getting here? If DCS is available, VOP from level 1 is far more appealling.

[Jeff the Green]

This isn't worth the feat. It doesn't stack with the VOP armor bonus which eventually passes it at level 15.

Still worth it for DR and the fact that you can enchant it even as a dragonborn without breaking your vows.

[eggynack]

Now, I don't know...how optimized are we getting here? If DCS is available, VOP from level 1 is far more appealling.
Sure, that would almost certainly make starting from one more appealing (though you get so many feats already that the marginal benefit of four or five more might be reduced). I've got to figure that just drawing some dividing line between dark chaos shuffle and not dark chaos shuffle, with each assessed somewhat separately, is fair though.

[Gemini476]

Even assuming someone else was covering the cost of the Ritual of Crucimigration for you, that's not an available option for any character who's Exalted. Voluntarily subjecting yourself to Evil magic, even if it doesn't change your alignment, is out of the question for the rigorous alignment restrictions of Exalted characters.

Going about it in the other order (Exalted after Necropolitan) would work from a rules perspective, but you'd lose out on the feats that you'd get from Vow of Poverty (minimum 4 feats lost: 2 before you could afford the Ritual of Crucimigration, and then 2-3 more because you don't start getting those free Exalted feats until you acquire both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty) after becoming Undead. Coming up short by 4-5 Exalted feats cuts significantly into the benefits of Vow of Poverty. :smallannoyed:
If you just take Sacred Vow at level 1 then you can regain it with an Atonement. A quest in and of itself, surely, but I reckon that becoming Dragonborn as a form of rejection of the former self might be a good start. Maybe go kill a dragon or something.


Well, I guess it's a good thing that there aren't many good [Exalted] feats that a Fighter 20 could take, then!
I mean, really. What is there that you want, Nymph's Kiss? Maybe Sanctify Martial Strike?
You're [Evil], so you most definitely don't want Touch of Golden Ice. Not that you could take it, what with the Con requirement. Being undead rules out Holy Radiance and Stigmata as well, unless you really want the ability to do 1d4/turn to all undead within 10' (including yourself).

So what's the list?

Favored of the Companions/Knight of Stars/Servant of the Heavens are all completely awful.
Gift of faith gives you bonuses to resisting things you are immune to.
Holy Subdual requires magic items or Smite, neither of which you have.
Intuitive Attack let's you sub out Strength for Wisdom with to-hit... which you want why, exactly?
Nimbus of Light gives you some diplomacy bonuses and general glow-in-the-darkness, which is kind of cool if weakish.
Nymph's Kiss is the first one you are taking, even if it means you can't take Vow of Chastity.
Quell the Profane... doesn't really seem worth it? It's kind of hard to crit-fish, and that's what you want with that feat. It also wants a non-exalted feat as a prerequisite. And ability damage, while awesome, interferes with Vow of Nonviolence/Peace if you're planning on going that way.
Sacred Vow you are already taking, and the same goes for Vow of Poverty.
Vow of Abstinence is useless as a Necropolitan since you are immune to the things it gives bonus to saves against.
The same goes for Vow of Chastity.
Vow of Nonviolence is alright if you get Subduing Strike, although you probably won't get too many benefits from it unless you grab something that gives a save.
Vow of Peace has the awesome mini-Starmantle Cloak effect, so is worth taking if you have ways to ensure that you will always do nonlethal damage.
Vow of Purity and Obedience are in the same bin as Chastity and Abstinence.
Sanctify Martial Strike needs Cha 15 and Weapon Focus and is mostly a worse Weapon Specialization, but you're kind of short on feats.
Words of Creation are pretty much just limited to being +4 sacred to Craft, which is pretty sad.

So out of the ones you can take, these are the ones you might consider as a Necropolitan:

Favored of the Companions/Knight of Stars/Servant of the Heavens
Nimbus of Light
Nymph's Kiss
Vow of Nonviolence
Vow of Peace
Sanctify Martial Strike

That's six feats, meaning that it'll take you from level 6 to level 18. I honestly don't know what I'd do with those extra four (?) feats that I lose.

I'm thinking that the extremely implausible narrative involves getting Crucimigrated at level three, Rebirthed at level two (and thus brought into the loving arms of Bahamut, who is pretty [Good]), takes Sacred Vow when he reaches level 3 again, and takes the Vow of Poverty at level 6. Take Nonviolence/Peace sometime soonish, but after you take Subdual Strike because I would not want to go through an entire level with -4 to-hit. So SS at 9, NV at 10, Peace at 12.

Something like this, perhaps?
DBNecroHalf-Orc Dragonscale Husk Fighter 20 (losing Dungeon Crasher because it doesn't play nice with VoPe, and taking Half-Orc so Headlong Rush is available)

1: Sacred Vow
1F: Power Attack
1H: Whatever, it doesn't really matter much
2F: Weapon Focus(Quarterstaff)
3: Vow of Poverty
4F: Subduing Strike
4V: Nymph's Kiss
6: Human Heritage
6F: Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
6V: Vow of Nonviolence
8F: Leap Attack
8V: Vow of Peace
9: Lifesense
10F: Shock Trooper
10V: Sanctify Martial Strike
12: Headlong Rush
12F: Combat Brute
12V: Nimbus of Light

I don't really know where to go from there. At 12th level it's currently hitting 2*(1d6+10+2)+96, for an average of 115 damage on a charge. Not that impressive, to be honest - the average monster at CR 12 has 197hp, and on the second turn you're only going +22/+17/+12 for 1d6+12+72 or an average of 87.5 on a successful hit - you might knock it unconscious, in other words. The CR 12 monster only has AC 22, in fact, so you probably will.
However, going in at -12AC is dangerous - you only have AC 30 to start with, so the +17 BAB of the CR 12 monster is kind of dangerous. Like, "they were already hitting 35% of the time, and now it's 95% of the time" dangerous. You really need some source of miss chance. Although I guess the "make a DC 22 fort save or your weapon shatters" ability might help a bit - it's almost like 30% miss chance versus the Average CR 12 Monster, if that monster so happens to be wielding a manufactured weapon.
...What kind of miss chance can you get without items, though? I can't really think of any. Are there any cheap templates out there or something? Remember that undead can't take Shape Soulmeld.

Also, I just found Brutal StrikePHB2. usable 1/round, declare before attack, if you hit they need to make a Fortitude save (DC 10+Power Attack damage) or be sickened for 1 round. That seems incredibly good for this build.

I just realized that I'm working on a Vow of Nonviolence build where you violently beat people with a staff. Hah.

[Jeff the Green]

Sure, that would almost certainly make starting from one more appealing (though you get so many feats already that the marginal benefit of four or five more might be reduced). I've got to figure that just drawing some dividing line between dark chaos shuffle and not dark chaos shuffle, with each assessed somewhat separately, is fair though.

Especially considering that you can shuffle away the bonus feats and then shuffle away VoP itself and have items.

[Talya]

Still worth it for DR and the fact that you can enchant it even as a dragonborn without breaking your vows.


You've already got DR /evil and magic as a VOP character. adding DR 2/adamantine is not huge, really.

Enchanting...maybe.

[OldTrees1]

This handbook might help in conjunction with finding replacements for the list of necesary items: Mundanity and how to overcome it handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11381.0)

[Curmudgeon]

Especially considering that you can shuffle away the bonus feats and then shuffle away VoP itself and have items.
How are you going to do that? Having enough money to pay for the first spell of DCS immediately makes all the bonus feats go away.

[Jeff the Green]

How are you going to do that? Having enough money to pay for the first spell of DCS immediately makes all the bonus feats go away.

As I mentioned up thread, there's absolutely nothing prohibiting you from paying for services in kind or having a party wizard cast things for you. In fact, one of the things I suggest is having a party crafter use you as a source of XP to craft things you'll benefit from (like wands of enlarge person or Pearls of power), plus that amount again on other things. It ends up working particularly well if you have a Fleshwarper buddy.

[bekeleven]

The thing about the optimized VoP Fighter is that they're fighting unarmed, and unarmed strikes are both natural weapons and valid targets for Weapon Focus. Consequently, they can apply all of these to their primary attack form:

Sanctify Ki Strike
Sanctify Martial Strike
Sanctify Natural Attack

These Exalted feats are all conditional on having Evil opponents, but the benefits are on every hit — much better than once a day. So yes, I think coming up short by 4-5 Exalted feats is going to be significant. An extra +3d4 damage, 5 times with a full attack, could easily mean taking down a creature a round sooner. And since VoP means you're fighting unarmored, avoiding a full counterattack is pretty important.

In addition to Sanctify Ki Strike being barred to non-monks, I would build a VoP fighter as a longspear user, not an unarmed attacker. The two-handed weapon bonus completely blows +1 damage to evil opponents out of the water.

Granted, I'd end up taking Sanctify Natural Attack/Martial Strike (Unarmed) and Touch of Golden Ice eventually, simply because there's nothing else to spend feats on.

[SaintRidley]

I contest Ridley's sainthood. The dude totally murdered my idol's family.

Pretty sure Saint's not a template you can remove from me.