Sword and Spell: What's a good PF Gish?

[Foxman778]

inb4 Magus, I am specifically looking for a different way to do it. Spellstrike/Channel is not a priority.
All Pazio material is allowed, but I need a good argument for any third-party.
Assume all traditional party roles are open. I want effective character, but not a wheel of cheddar. Please and thank-you.

[mephnick]

People seem to enjoy the Arcane Duelist archetype of the Bard.

[ArqArturo]

A paladin/sorcerer in levels of dragon disciple might do the trick. D12, the sorcerer/wizard spell list... Seems good enough, minus the armor, of course.

Another, and I think it might be better, a Paladin/oracle with levels of holy vindicator. Yes, it's no Gish per se, but, you have healing, armor, better HD, and access to the cleric/oracle spell list.

[Kurald Galain]

inb4 Magus,
Magus!

Well, aside from that, a mutagen-specced Alchemist works pretty well, as does a synesthesist Summoner. If you're ok with divine casting for your gish, I recommend Oracle or Inquisitor. And with the right race, you can enter Eldritch Knight at level 2, which makes a pretty good low-level gish.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't really like Arcane Duelist, I suggest Dawnflower Dervish bard instead.

A synthesist summoner is an extremely powerful melee character who also happens to cast arcane spells. And by "also happens" I mean "uses 9 levels of spells cleverly disguised as a 6-level spell list."

[Benthesquid]

There's a couple Witch archetypes that work reasonably well for this. The Scarred Witch Doctor uses Constitution as its main spellcasting stat (because witches don't care how your ability scores are supposed to work), and then taking the Prehensile Hair hex gives a natural attack with to hit bonus and damage based on your constitution.

[ArqArturo]

There's a couple Witch archetypes that work reasonably well for this. The Scarred Witch Doctor uses Constitution as its main spellcasting stat (because witches don't care how your ability scores are supposed to work), and then taking the Prehensile Hair hex gives a natural attack with to hit bonus and damage based on your constitution.

So basically, Syndel from Mortal Kombat.

[Larkas]

Fighter 1/ Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 3/ Arcane Archer 4/ Eldritch Knight +7 nets you BAB 17 and 17th level Wizard casting. Better yet, Aasimar Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 3/ Arcane Archer 4/ Eldritch Knight +7 nets you BAB 17 and 18th level Sorcerer casting.

[Benthesquid]

So basically, Syndel from Mortal Kombat.

I'm not familiar with that character, but if she or he debuffs people with magic based on her or his hearty physique, and then beats them to death with his or her hair, then... yes?

[Beowulf DW]

So basically, Syndel from Mortal Kombat.

Or Fistbeard Beardfist.

[grarrrg]

Getting into either Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist) or Hell Knight Signifier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer) can be helpful.
Evangelist is d8HD 3/4 Bab, 6 Skill/level, and stacks 9/10 for EVERYTHING from another class.
Hell Knight is d8HD, 3/4 Bab, and reduces Arcane Spell Failure from wearing armor.


Or Fistbeard Beardfist.

Sadly, Scarred Witch Doctor is an Orc-only archetype, and FistBeard Beardfist is obviously a Dwarf. :smallfrown:


Aasimar Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 3

Except for the fact that they've stated you need an actual HD of Outsider to get proficiencies.

[Larkas]

Except for the fact that they've stated you need an actual HD of Outsider to get proficiencies.

Bah. Paizo.

[deuxhero]

And yet SLAs (foresight wizard, and Aasimar as your race are the big ones for 3rd level) DO give you early qualification apparently.

You can do worse than Lore Warden (or whatever) 1/Foresight Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 10 for the first 12 levels.

[NamelessNPC]

Nomad 6/elocator 4/phrenic slayer 10 gives you 16 bab and 18 psion caster levels. Psionics are third party, obv, but really good and usually allowed

[Snowbluff]

I don't really like Arcane Duelist, I suggest Dawnflower Dervish bard instead.

A synthesist summoner is an extremely powerful melee character who also happens to cast arcane spells. And by "also happens" I mean "uses 9 levels of spells cleverly disguised as a 6-level spell list."
Huzzah, Synthesist! Apostle of the Minmax!

Bah. Paizo.
Yeah, what the hell?

And yet SLAs (foresight wizard, and Aasimar as your race are the big ones for 3rd level) DO give you early qualification apparently.

You can do worse than Lore Warden (or whatever) 1/Foresight Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 10 for the first 12 levels.

I play an aasimar foresight wizard1/fighter1 in my PFS. The DM has pretty much given up, since I crit for fatal damage on a regular basis. :smalltongue:

[Beowulf DW]

Sadly, Scarred Witch Doctor is an Orc-only archetype, and FistBeard Beardfist is obviously a Dwarf. :smallfrown:

Most DMs I know would be willing to let that slide just to see how it would work.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Half-Orcs, thanks to their mixed blood, count as both humans and orcs. On the orc side, that means they qualify for Scarred Witch Doctor. On the human side, that means you can take the Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage) feat to count as a dwarf, too. Dwarf is even the example they use!

That's one hell of a family tree, but whatever.

[Psyren]

Inquisitor is also a powerful gish, especially with Bane and Judgments. Use the Preacher or Spellbreaker archetypes to dump the crappy teamwork feats. They function well at both melee and ranged.

[JusticeZero]

Yeah, well, they didn't say what the other half was... :)

[ArqArturo]

Half-Orcs, thanks to their mixed blood, count as both humans and orcs. On the orc side, that means they qualify for Scarred Witch Doctor. On the human side, that means you can take the Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage) feat to count as a dwarf, too. Dwarf is even the example they use!

That's one hell of a family tree, but whatever.

This is a world where Owlbears are a thing.

[torrasque666]

Hey man, those were a drunken experiment and uh.... Why are you looking at me like that?

-Uristy McBeardFace, Half-Dwarf wizard shortly before being cut down with his Orc lover.

[Psyren]

Or you could have a half-orc bone a dwarf. That would let you stay in core too.

[Foxman778]

Thanks for all the replies, I think i'll try the beardy Orc witch.

[grarrrg]

Thanks for all the replies, I think i'll try the beardy Orc witch.

If you can, throw Evangelist PrC on there. You lose 1 level worth of Witch-stuff, but get upgraded to 3/4 Bab.

[Raven777]

Sadly, Scarred Witch Doctor is an Orc-only archetype, and FistBeard Beardfist is obviously a Dwarf. :smallfrown:

Half-Orcs count as both Human and Orc (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c) for the purpose of selecting race exclusive options. Same goes with Half-Elf.

EDIT : I should really read the whole thread before making replies >.>

[Eldariel]

The classic Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard +3/Full BAB +1 works still. Not amazing but 16 BAB, CL 17. AA is probably an actual upgrade even with the entry requirements but at least the level 8 abilities of some Wizard variants can be nice and AA does have somewhat stringent entry requirements.

[grarrrg]

The classic Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard +3/Full BAB +1 works still. Not amazing but 16 BAB, CL 17. AA is probably an actual upgrade even with the entry requirements but at least the level 8 abilities of some Wizard variants can be nice and AA does have somewhat stringent entry requirements.

For what it's worth, give the ole Dipping Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230500-Pathfinder-Dipping-for-Fun-and-Profit-%28mostly-Profit%29) a read, 3rd post, "Casting" section.
Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight are the only two with Full Bab (and Arcane Archer only has 7/10 casting), but there's a good assortment of 3/4 Bab with Full or 9/10 casting

[copy/paste]

Arcane (sorted by minimum lost casting levels)
No Lost Casting
*Arcane Trickster, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting (Sandman Archetype Bard only, otherwise +2 lost Casting)
Arclord of Nex, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Bloatmage, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Cyphermage, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Diabolist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Envoy of Balance, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Genie Binder, 1/2 Bab, 5/5 Casting
Harrower, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Hellknight Signifier, 3/4 Bab, 10/10 Casting (must have Medium Armor Prof., if you would rather Dip than spend 2 feats, this drops to 1 Lost Casting)
Loremaster, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Magaambyan Arcanist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Spherewalker, 3/4 Bab, 5/5 Casting
Thuvian Alchemist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Veiled Illusionist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting

1 Lost Casting (no Casting on 1st level of PrC)
Agent of the Grave, 1/2 Bab, 4/5 Casting
Arcane Archer, Full Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Blackfire Adept, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Daivrat, 1/2 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Demoniac, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
**Dragon Disciple, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
***Eldritch Knight, Full Bab, 9/10 Casting (only for Magus entry)
Evangelist, 3/4 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Mystery Cultist, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Pathfinder Savant, 1/2 Bab, 6/7 Casting
Razmiran Priest, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Riftwarden, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Souldrinker, 1/2 Bab, 8/10 Casting (if taken to level 5 or less)
Storm Kindler, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Tattooed Mystic, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Umbral Court Agent, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Winter Witch, 1/2 Bab, 9/10 Casting (Winter Witch archetype-Only)

2 Lost Casting
Arcane Archer, Full Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Arcane Trickster, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting (lost casting due to Pre-Req of 2d6 Sneak Attack)
Blackfire Adept, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
**Dragon Disciple, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Eldritch Knight, Full Bab, 9/10 Casting (lost casting due to Pre-Req of All Martial Weapon prof.)
Razmiran Priest, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Riftwarden, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Souldrinker, 1/2 Bab, 8/10 Casting (if taken to level 6 or more)
Storm Kindler, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Tattooed Mystic, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-8 levels are taken)
Umbral Court Agent, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)

3 Lost Casting
Arcane Archer, Full Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Blackfire Adept, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
**Dragon Disciple, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Mystic Theurge, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting (lost casting due to Pre-Req of 2nd level Divine Casting)
Razmiran Priest, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Riftwarden, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Storm Kindler, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Tattooed Mystic, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Umbral Court Agent, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)

*Sandman Archetype Bard is the only Arcane Base class that can qualify for Arcane Trickster without multiclassing
**Dragon Disciple requires 1st level Spontaneous Casting as a Pre-Req, but can be used to advance Prepared Casting, in this case add +1 lost Casting.
***Magus is the only Arcane Base class that can qualify for Eldritch Knight without multiclassing.

[Eldariel]

Hm. PF PRCs have ridiculous entry requirements :smallfrown: It's always like 3 feats for nothing worth your while. I guess Spherewalker or Hellknight Signifier would buff you up to CL 18, 16 BAB. That's not terrible, though we're again talking about burning 3 feats on absolute futility.

[JusticeZero]

I'd mention that most of the DSP psi classes are gishy as heck, if you were so inclined. I was about to make a list, then realized that it would be a lot longer than the non-gish list. Wilder, tactician, dread, psi warrior particularly stand out in that regard.

[Feint's End]

I'd mention that most of the DSP psi classes are gishy as heck, if you were so inclined. I was about to make a list, then realized that it would be a lot longer than the non-gish list. Wilder, tactician, dread, psi warrior particularly stand out in that regard.

Make it bigger:
-Cryptic (with brutal disruptor) is one of the highest damage classes (just gets beaten natural weapon psywars and psions) without any multiclassing while simultaneously being a great skillmonkey.
-wilder works really well as a gish as does contemplative. It's a class that is pretty straight forward and using it correctly is very rewarding.
-dread ... I personally don't like the class since I feel it lacks the mechanics but it does make a pretty decent melee debuffer (add nightmare constructor for extra fun)
-psychic warrior ... from natural weapon fighting over ranged combat to massive hits with a TH weapon the psywar can do it all. They even have some mechanics to quicken their buffspeed. Probably the strongest out of the box gish
-soulknife .. The least gishy but add gifted blade and/or contemplative dip plus levels in dark tempest and you got yourself a really powerful one.
-psion ... yes even the psion works. Play an egoist, pick up claws of the beast via EK or UT and go to town. The power of a properly built egoist psion even surpasses the power of a natural weapon focused psywar (and the synthesist too).
-tactician.... I don't think they are really meant to be gishs but they can certainly be built to be. Lots of swift action buffs + a very strong power list for buffing makes them a strong choice in any group.

[Krazzman]

After my experiences with both Magus and Inquisitor I have to say that those 2 are awesome gishes. They start as a gish (maybe the Magus more than the Inquisitor) but it is indeed awesome.

Another, albeit ranged Gish option is:
Half Elf Quigong Zen Archer Monk 3/Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer x/Arcane Archer.
Wisdom SAD, Flurry of Bows etc. I once wanted to play it but never got around to actively do it.