Need help with a vigilante build.

[Jestyen]

So I'm going to be in a party with a planar shepherd, cleric and wizard. We're all gestalts. I'm wanting to do a vigilante/batman(girl) kind of build that can keep up with them if possible.

I'm also wanting to play a half fiend.

So far I'm thinking

factotum 20//half fiend 4/paragon creature 15/something 1

I'm not even sure I can combined paragon creature with a half fiend. Dm has approved of the paragon creature template if I want and level it as a kind of class build.

I'm not really sure what else to do with this. If paragon is not a good idea I'm open for other class suggestions.

I'm also looking for feat suggestions. 2 flaws allowed.

[Gavinfoxx]

You will need to be a full caster to keep up with a Planar Shephard.

Full stop.

Your ENTIRE party is Tier 1 classes. Don't think of not playing one. Your party is missing an Artificer, a Spell to Power Erudite, or an Archivist. Any of those with Factotum on the other side would be fine.

[Jestyen]

You will need to be a full caster to keep up with a Planar Shephard.

Full stop.

Your ENTIRE party is Tier 1 classes. Don't think of not playing one. Your party is missing an Artificer, a Spell to Power Erudite, or an Archivist. Any of those with Factotum on the other side would be fine.


so what would you suggest as a build then including feats? I still want to keep the vigilante aspect but I don't want to be so overwhelmed by the druid and cleric. I know the druid is going with the Syrania - The Azure Sky and I know that's not the most powerful of planes. He doesn't want to break the action economy. He's a saint druid so he's going the whole holy route. cleric is a half shadow dragon cleric. I don't know what the wizard is going to do.

This is my first campaign so I'm kinda lost.

[shadowseve]

You will need to be a full caster to keep up with a Planar Shephard.

Full stop.

Your ENTIRE party is Tier 1 classes. Don't think of not playing one. Your party is missing an Artificer, a Spell to Power Erudite, or an Archivist. Any of those with Factotum on the other side would be fine.


So maybe factotum 20/ half fiend 4 artificer 16? Or would you combined archavist and a spell to power erudite as well?

this person is in my party and I'm the planar shepherd.

[Gavinfoxx]

Human, One of those classes with factotum on the other side, and minimizing level adjustment as much as possible.

[Jeff the Green]

May I recommend my Inspired Inventor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273831-PrC-Mechas-and-flamethrowers-Artificer-Factotum-theurge-(WIP-PEACH)&p=14803127#post14803127)? Very Batmanish, with both factotum and artificer abilities (delayed slightly, but not enough that you can't keep up with other tier 1s). And you can eventually be Iron Man if you prefer, or one of those villains with a death ray if you swing that way.

Maybe put warblade, monk (with Kung Fu Genius), or other classes that like Intelligence on the other side.

[Red Fel]

This is my first campaign so I'm kinda lost.

First off, welcome to the game. Second off, you're probably going to be in over your head.

Let me explain, because I don't want to discourage you. The others in your party are Tier 1 classes. These are classes which can do anything in the game, do it outrageously well, do it better than those classes designed to do it, and often do it in such a manner as to break the game. Action economy aside, they can literally bypass the plot if they so desire. And they're in your party. All of them.

Be aware also that gestalt is even more over-the-top than the average game. As powerful as Tier 1 classes are normally, a Tier 1 in a gestalt is basically a god. Full stop. I don't ordinarily advise new players to try out a gestalt campaign for that exact reason - it will be overpowered, it will be overwhelming, and if you can't keep up with the Tier 1s, you will get steamrolled.

Another major point is that the classic Batman-style classes tend to be melee-oriented, immediately taking them down from Tier 1. But there is hope.

For example, you could gestalt Cleric with Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator. You are now a thoroughly Lawful, heavily armed and armored, shadowy knight of the shadowy night. You can use your Turn Undead attempts to DMM Persist your buffs (and you should), or to gain swift actions.

Factotum, as others have mentioned, is very Batman-y. But where the RKV is the Dark Knight, the Factotum is the World's Greatest Detective - it lets you pretty much have anything you might need in your little toolbelt. You add your Int to basically everything, you fake out some spells, you take extra actions, you know all of the skills... You're Batman, at least skill-wise. But you'll still need a Tier 1 class on the other side of the gestalt just to keep up.

[adriana]

First off, welcome to the game. Second off, you're probably going to be in over your head.

Let me explain, because I don't want to discourage you. The others in your party are Tier 1 classes. These are classes which can do anything in the game, do it outrageously well, do it better than those classes designed to do it, and often do it in such a manner as to break the game. Action economy aside, they can literally bypass the plot if they so desire. And they're in your party. All of them.

Be aware also that gestalt is even more over-the-top than the average game. As powerful as Tier 1 classes are normally, a Tier 1 in a gestalt is basically a god. Full stop. I don't ordinarily advise new players to try out a gestalt campaign for that exact reason - it will be overpowered, it will be overwhelming, and if you can't keep up with the Tier 1s, you will get steamrolled.

Another major point is that the classic Batman-style classes tend to be melee-oriented, immediately taking them down from Tier 1. But there is hope. For example, you could gestalt Cleric with Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator. You are now a thoroughly Lawful, heavily armed and armored, shadowy knight of the shadowy night. You can use your Turn Undead attempts to DMM Persist your buffs (and you should), or to gain swift actions.

Factotum, as others have mentioned, is very Batman-y. But where the RKV is the Dark Knight, the Factotum is the World's Greatest Detective - it lets you pretty much have anything you might need in your little toolbelt. You add your Int to basically everything, you fake out some spells, you take extra actions, you know all of the skills... You're Batman, at least skill-wise. But you'll still need a Tier 1 class on the other side of the gestalt just to keep up.



here's the trouble with ruby knight. I'm the necro cleric in the part and I'm going with a build similar to

Cleric 3/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Contemplative 6 // Half Dragon 3 / Dragonfire Adept 17.

shadowseve is going druid 5/ planar shepherd 10/ druid 5// saint 2/ factotum 18.
Or druid 5/ planar shepherd 10/ druid 5// saint 2/ factotum 8/ barbarian 10(for some rage and improved bab).

so I don't think ruby knight would be good since I'm filling that slot.

[shadowseve]

May I recommend my Inspired Inventor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273831-PrC-Mechas-and-flamethrowers-Artificer-Factotum-theurge-(WIP-PEACH)&p=14803127#post14803127)? Very Batmanish, with both factotum and artificer abilities (delayed slightly, but not enough that you can't keep up with other tier 1s). And you can eventually be Iron Man if you prefer, or one of those villains with a death ray if you swing that way.

Maybe put warblade, monk (with Kung Fu Genius), or other classes that like Intelligence on the other side.

that's home brewed I assume right? I'm sure that's fine so what would you recommend for her to take as her final build. the dm is a great friend so I'm sure he'll be fine with a home brew. We're just wanting her to keep the concept and compete as much as possible.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level is the game starting out at, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach?

I'd recommend something like Factotum 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Factotum 8/ Contemplative 2/ Factotum 8// Archivist 7/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Archivist 4/ Contemplative 8. Use the Rebuke Dragons ACF for Cleric, which can still fuel divine feats, so you'll have two pools of turning/rebuking uses to use with Divine Metamagic, and each Extra Turning or Night Stick or Reliquary Holy Symbol will add its extra turn uses to both pools for double the effect. The first two Contemplative levels advance Cleric spellcasting, the last eight Contemplative levels advance Archivist casting. The bonus domains all must be added to Cleric, pick for good domain powers such as Luck, Inquisition, Travel, etc. and trade the free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion. Archivist gets access to nearly every spell in the game (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251), or literally every spell if you take certain base/prestige class combinations into consideration. You can also use Anyspell and Greater Anyspell for access to (DMM: Persistent) Shield, Wraithstrike, Draconic Polymorph, etc.

I'd recommend getting Fell Frighten Spell and Fell Drain Spell, use DMM: Persistent with Fell Frighten Ice Axe, Fell Frighten Flame Blade, Fell Drain Death Armor, Fell Drain Fire Shield twice, and Fell Drain Cloud of Knives. Also be sure to use (Greater) Luminous Armor, DMM: Persistent with Divine Power, Draconic Polymorph: War Troll, (you can Alter Self back into yourself and keep the physical stats), Holy Star three times (one for each mode, when one's spell turning runs out switch it to another mode and put another into spell turning mode), Stormrage, etc. Either you or the Cleric should be using DMM: Persistent Elation, Mass Lesser Vigor, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful on the whole party every day. If you're not starting out high level, you can cast Polymorph to take the form of a Bladerager Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) from 8th level until you get access to Greater Anyspell for Draconic Polymorph.

If there are already plenty of melee characters in the party, you could make this character the best archer ever. Go with an elf race, take Otherworldly at 1st level, and DMM: Persistent Draconic Polymorph into an Arrow Demon with two Energy Bows (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). You'll get extra attacks to your main bow from Rapid Shot and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and you'll get the Symmetrical Archery ability so your second bow makes exactly the same number of attacks at the same attack bonuses. Get a pile of +1 Spell Storing Arrows and put (Lesser Rod of Maximized) Shivering Touch and similar into them.

[shadowseve]

What level is the game starting out at, and what level do you reasonably expect to reach?

I'd recommend something like Factotum 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Factotum 8/ Contemplative 2/ Factotum 8// Archivist 7/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Archivist 4/ Contemplative 8. Use the Rebuke Dragons ACF for Cleric, which can still fuel divine feats, so you'll have two pools of turning/rebuking uses to use with Divine Metamagic, and each Extra Turning or Night Stick or Reliquary Holy Symbol will add its extra turn uses to both pools for double the effect. The first two Contemplative levels advance Cleric spellcasting, the last eight Contemplative levels advance Archivist casting. The bonus domains all must be added to Cleric, pick for good domain powers such as Luck, Inquisition, Travel, etc. and trade the free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion. Archivist gets access to nearly every spell in the game (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251), or literally every spell if you take certain base/prestige class combinations into consideration. You can also use Anyspell and Greater Anyspell for access to (DMM: Persistent) Shield, Wraithstrike, Draconic Polymorph, etc.

I'd recommend getting Fell Frighten Spell and Fell Drain Spell, use DMM: Persistent with Fell Frighten Ice Axe, Fell Frighten Flame Blade, Fell Drain Death Armor, Fell Drain Fire Shield twice, and Fell Drain Cloud of Knives. Also be sure to use (Greater) Luminous Armor, DMM: Persistent with Divine Power, Draconic Polymorph: War Troll, (you can Alter Self back into yourself and keep the physical stats), Holy Star three times (one for each mode, when one's spell turning runs out switch it to another mode and put another into spell turning mode), Stormrage, etc. Either you or the Cleric should be using DMM: Persistent Elation, Mass Lesser Vigor, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful on the whole party every day. If you're not starting out high level, you can cast Polymorph to take the form of a Bladerager Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) from 8th level until you get access to Greater Anyspell for Draconic Polymorph.

If there are already plenty of melee characters in the party, you could make this character the best archer ever. Go with an elf race, take Otherworldly at 1st level, and DMM: Persistent Draconic Polymorph into an Arrow Demon with two Energy Bows (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). You'll get extra attacks to your main bow from Rapid Shot and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and you'll get the Symmetrical Archery ability so your second bow makes exactly the same number of attacks at the same attack bonuses. Get a pile of +1 Spell Storing Arrows and put (Lesser Rod of Maximized) Shivering Touch and similar into them.

The cleric is a half fiend who is CN thus would'nt be able to take luminous armor since it's a sanctified spell.

While this a good build I think it deviates from the original intend of going melee. plus Adriana is going DMM Persistant. She'll have most of those persisted. This is the frustrating part is building something melee to compete with us.

[Jeff the Green]

that's home brewed I assume right? I'm sure that's fine so what would you recommend for her to take as her final build. the dm is a great friend so I'm sure he'll be fine with a home brew. We're just wanting her to keep the concept and compete as much as possible.

Generally you want Factotum 1/Artificer 5/Inspired Inventor 10/Artificer +4 (9). That'll get you most of the abilities (sans SLAs) of a Factotum 11 and the item creation of a level 18 Artificer (though you'll need to burn bonus or regular feats to get all the Item Creation ones). On the other side, I'm not entirely sure. If you haven't chosen a fiendish ancestor, check out this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) article and choose a fiend that gives you the stat modifiers that will help. (I'm not super familiar with outsiders, so I can't help much on that front.) In general, you'll want Intelligence>Constitution=Charisma>Dexterity>Strength>Wisdom, though the positions of Strength and Dexterity can change depending on your build.

For the other side, you want something keyed off of Intelligence and/or Charisma. Four levels of Warlock can't hurt for the ability to take 10 on UMD, something you won't get from Artificer levels, and it'll give you a few Least invocations, like Baleful Utterance and Beguiling Influence. A 1-level Exemplar dip would also give you the ability to take 10 on UMD, along with Int modifier other skills, but comes online two levels later. A dip in monk with Kung Fu Genius would be okay; a two-level dip in Swordsage would be better if Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk works with it. If you go Swordsage, pick up Assassin's stance and enter Bayushi Deceiver (OA) for two levels for Intelligence to initiative. Chameleon will offer you real spellcasting, which can be useful for spells that depend on CL, as well as a floating bonus feat you can use for things like the item creation feats you'll miss.

Base race, if you haven't already picked, might be best as human, strongheart halfling, or something with a bonus to Intelligence. Warforged can be good too because of the 1st- and 4th-level substitution levels, but applying half-fiend is a little funky, if strictly legal.

You will absolutely need Font of Inspiration. Take it more than once if you can afford it. You should also definitely take Extraordinary Artisan, Magical Artisan (tied to Extraordinary Artisan), and Legendary Artisan, along with Craft Wand. Nymph's Kiss is very good if you can stomach being Exalted or can get your DM to make it not [Exalted]—you need as many skill points as you can get for all the Craft skills. Uh... not sure what else; I'm playtesting it right now in a gestalt game, but it has spellcasting on the other side and lots of the feats are taken up by improvements to that.

One thing that you should note is that the prices for the inventions aren't well tested. I'm fairly confident about Widgets' and Gadgets', but the others may need to be adjusted. Also, you may want to change the way you determine invention uses to make it easier on your DM: Make note of how many times it's been used. On the 6th time, roll 1d3. If you get a 1, it still activates but breaks afterwards. If not, the next time roll a d2. If you manage to get to the 9th use, it just breaks. I just discovered that I'd forgotten to change Durable Widgets/Gadgets to be 20+1d10, and for that you'd use the same method except for starting rolling with a d10 at the 21st time, then step down to d9 (d10 but reroll 10s), d8, d7 (d8 but reroll 8s), etc.

[Jestyen]

May I recommend my Inspired Inventor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273831-PrC-Mechas-and-flamethrowers-Artificer-Factotum-theurge-(WIP-PEACH)&p=14803127#post14803127)? Very Batmanish, with both factotum and artificer abilities (delayed slightly, but not enough that you can't keep up with other tier 1s). And you can eventually be Iron Man if you prefer, or one of those villains with a death ray if you swing that way.

Maybe put warblade, monk (with Kung Fu Genius), or other classes that like Intelligence on the other side.


I may look at that but I though theurge builds weren't allowed with gestalt?

[Jeff the Green]

I may look at that but I though theurge builds weren't allowed with gestalt?

It's only a recommendation, and a stupid one. It sort of works for things like Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight, but there are a bunch of later theurge classes that have unique class features that might be the entire point of a build. As long as you keep both of the prereq classes on the same side, it's not a problem.

[Jestyen]

It's only a recommendation, and a stupid one. It sort of works for things like Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight, but there are a bunch of later theurge classes that have unique class features that might be the entire point of a build. As long as you keep both of the prereq classes on the same side, it's not a problem.

Now did you combine both classes exactly or is this major home brew? I've never looked at any of the classes handed to me. I really feel like a fish out of water atm lol.

[Jeff the Green]

Now did you combine both classes exactly or is this major home brew? I've never looked at any of the classes handed to me. I really feel like a fish out of water atm lol.

The latter. Factotum uses inspiration points to gain various bonuses. Artificer makes magic items. Inspired Inventor does both (though at a somewhat worse level), but his signature is using inspiration points to activate nonmagical items called widgets, gadgets, whirligigs, and gizmos. Most of these only give bonuses to the user or are harmful to others, but eventually you'll gain the ability to help your allies activate them more quickly (their swift + your immediate instead of their full-round).

There are a couple ways you can play this as a melee combatant. The first is Iaijutsu Focus. (If you haven't heard of it, it's a skill from Oriental Adventures. You make the check, draw a weapon, and do bonus damage based on your roll. It only works against flat-footed enemies, but that's what a wand of grease is for.) if you do this, Bayushi deceiver is particularly useful because it adds your Intelligence modifier to your Initiative (which means, on top of Factotum's Brain over Brawn and Improved Initiative, you should have an initiative of at least +12, probably more like +20) and gives you sneak attack. You'll pretty much need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnome quickrazor) here, and Craven is very useful. Swordsage is useful both for Assassin's Sance and maneuvers that render your opponent flat-footed or you invisible.

The second is tripping. Factotums add their Intelligence bonus to Strength checks (you'll get it at character level 8), which includes those for tripping. Get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) and Improved Trip. Also consider Swordsage levels here and there for Setting Sun maneuvers.

The final is just your normal everyday smashing of heads. Power Attack and Leap Attack are your friends here. Possibly dip Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarian on the other side for pounce and whirling frenzy. Normally I'd suggest Shock Trooper, but honestly with an accuracy widget you can power attack all you want.

For all of these you'll start by buffing with magic items and your inventions, most of which should be handled prior to combat. (Grab Extend and Persistent Spells to combine with Metamagic Spell Trigger/Scroll infusions.) You can lay down a basic spell or two from a wand, like grease or a short-term buff, and then throw down. Eventually you'll want to give some inventions to your allies and help them activate them when possible.

[Jestyen]

The latter. Factotum uses inspiration points to gain various bonuses. Artificer makes magic items. Inspired Inventor does both (though at a somewhat worse level), but his signature is using inspiration points to activate nonmagical items called widgets, gadgets, whirligigs, and gizmos. Most of these only give bonuses to the user or are harmful to others, but eventually you'll gain the ability to help your allies activate them more quickly (their swift + your immediate instead of their full-round).

There are a couple ways you can play this as a melee combatant. The first is Iaijutsu Focus. (If you haven't heard of it, it's a skill from Oriental Adventures. You make the check, draw a weapon, and do bonus damage based on your roll. It only works against flat-footed enemies, but that's what a wand of grease is for.) if you do this, Bayushi deceiver is particularly useful because it adds your Intelligence modifier to your Initiative (which means, on top of Factotum's Brain over Brawn and Improved Initiative, you should have an initiative of at least +12, probably more like +20) and gives you sneak attack. You'll pretty much need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnome quickrazor) here, and Craven is very useful. Swordsage is useful both for Assassin's Sance and maneuvers that render your opponent flat-footed or you invisible.

The second is tripping. Factotums add their Intelligence bonus to Strength checks (you'll get it at character level 8), which includes those for tripping. Get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) and Improved Trip. Also consider Swordsage levels here and there for Setting Sun maneuvers.

The final is just your normal everyday smashing of heads. Power Attack and Leap Attack are your friends here. Possibly dip Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarian on the other side for pounce and whirling frenzy. Normally I'd suggest Shock Trooper, but honestly with an accuracy widget you can power attack all you want.

For all of these you'll start by buffing with magic items and your inventions, most of which should be handled prior to combat. (Grab Extend and Persistent Spells to combine with Metamagic Spell Trigger/Scroll infusions.) You can lay down a basic spell or two from a wand, like grease or a short-term buff, and then throw down. Eventually you'll want to give some inventions to your allies and help them activate them when possible.

thanks for the advice.

the other concept I had was tibbet sorcerer which may be better to compete with the cleric, necor and druid. But that's a wizard and sorc in the same party. :smallsigh: I'm not sure what to gestalt with.

Would your build compete with shadowseve's planar shepherd and the cleric/ruby knight build?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The cleric is a half fiend who is CN thus would'nt be able to take luminous armor since it's a sanctified spell.

While this a good build I think it deviates from the original intend of going melee. plus Adriana is going DMM Persistant. She'll have most of those persisted. This is the frustrating part is building something melee to compete with us.

There's nothing wrong with having two characters using DMM: Persistent. The Druid should even dip a Cleric level to get that, since there are so many amazing buffs on the Druid list that can be used with it as well. If she doesn't go with a divine caster, she should make an arcane gish with Incantatrix or Spelldancer for alternate cost persistent spell buffs anyway. The only viable alternative, especially for a melee character, would be a Master of Many Forms build. One character using Persistent Spell should not exclude other characters from using it as well.

[Jestyen]

There's nothing wrong with having two characters using DMM: Persistent. The Druid should even dip a Cleric level to get that, since there are so many amazing buffs on the Druid list that can be used with it as well. If she doesn't go with a divine caster, she should make an arcane gish with Incantatrix or Spelldancer for alternate cost persistent spell buffs anyway. The only viable alternative, especially for a melee character, would be a Master of Many Forms build. One character using Persistent Spell should not exclude other characters from using it as well.

I have thought about creating a sorcerer. What kind of gish build would you recommend?

[Jeff the Green]

thanks for the advice.

the other concept I had was tibbet sorcerer which may be better to compete with the cleric, necor and druid. But that's a wizard and sorc in the same party. :smallsigh: I'm not sure what to gestalt with.

Sorcerers gestalt well with dips for Charisma to everything or Binder. See my posts on shadowseve's thread. However, tibbits can't cast in cat form without Nonverbal Spell. Have you considered Psion instead? Same basic idea, no components.


Would your build compete with shadowseve's planar shepherd and the cleric/ruby knight build?

Absolutely. You'll be creating items as an Artificer of your level -2, which means you can make scrolls and stuff of spells at the same time the Wizard or Cleric learns to cast them. Sooner, for some of them, because you can cherry-pick from any list you want, and you can use metamagic as well or better than any of them. You'll be better at buffing than anything, but you'll also be the go-to guy/gal for situational spells and essentially quadruple your party's wealth. That means more spells for the Wizard, more wilding clasps/amulet of natural attacks for the druid, and more Nightsticks for the cleric.

[shadowseve]

There's nothing wrong with having two characters using DMM: Persistent. The Druid should even dip a Cleric level to get that, since there are so many amazing buffs on the Druid list that can be used with it as well. If she doesn't go with a divine caster, she should make an arcane gish with Incantatrix or Spelldancer for alternate cost persistent spell buffs anyway. The only viable alternative, especially for a melee character, would be a Master of Many Forms build. One character using Persistent Spell should not exclude other characters from using it as well.


I had thought about taking levels of cleric for the dmm alone. Would have to rework my planned feats but it would prb be worth it.

[shadowseve]

Sorcerers gestalt well with dips for Charisma to everything or Binder. See my posts on shadowseve's thread. However, tibbits can't cast in cat form without Nonverbal Spell. Have you considered Psion instead? Same basic idea, no components.



Absolutely. You'll be creating items as an Artificer of your level -2, which means you can make scrolls and stuff of spells at the same time the Wizard or Cleric learns to cast them. Sooner, for some of them, because you can cherry-pick from any list you want, and you can use metamagic as well or better than any of them. You'll be better at buffing than anything, but you'll also be the go-to guy/gal for situational spells and essentially quadruple your party's wealth. That means more spells for the Wizard, more wilding clasps/amulet of natural attacks for the druid, and more Nightsticks for the cleric.

you talking about going sorcer on one end and binder and anima mage and the others you listed? Might def be worth considering. She's wanting the tibbet for fluff. we might could homebrew an amulet that would let her cast in cat form. Wouldn't be game breaking or anything. More rp fluff. I'll have to dig up that post and review it. LOL.

[Jestyen]

Sorcerers gestalt well with dips for Charisma to everything or Binder. See my posts on shadowseve's thread. However, tibbits can't cast in cat form without Nonverbal Spell. Have you considered Psion instead? Same basic idea, no components.



Absolutely. You'll be creating items as an Artificer of your level -2, which means you can make scrolls and stuff of spells at the same time the Wizard or Cleric learns to cast them. Sooner, for some of them, because you can cherry-pick from any list you want, and you can use metamagic as well or better than any of them. You'll be better at buffing than anything, but you'll also be the go-to guy/gal for situational spells and essentially quadruple your party's wealth. That means more spells for the Wizard, more wilding clasps/amulet of natural attacks for the druid, and more Nightsticks for the cleric.

I looked at his post.

you mean something like

sorc 20//Binder 10/Anima Mage 10?

looks interesting if I went that route what would be some good feats?

[Jeff the Green]

I looked at his post.

you mean something like

sorc 20//Binder 10/Anima Mage 10?

looks interesting if I went that route what would be some good feats?

Ah, no. The thing is that you'll be wasting those spellcasting levels from Anima Mage. What I suggested was actually something like Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 10/PrC 6//Binder 4/Dips 10/Binder +6 (10). While that violates my own rule about making theurge classes be entirely on one side, it's less of a deal because Sorcerers are already a level behind prestige casters in getting their spells.

[Jestyen]

Ah, no. The thing is that you'll be wasting those spellcasting levels from Anima Mage. What I suggested was actually something like Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 10/PrC 6//Binder 4/Dips 10/Binder +6 (10). While that violates my own rule about making theurge classes be entirely on one side, it's less of a deal because Sorcerers are already a level behind prestige casters in getting their spells.

what would be the dips lv 10 and prc 6?

Edit:

Sorry for being a noob. like I said first campaign. I've got a lot to learn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have thought about creating a sorcerer. What kind of gish build would you recommend?

For an arcane gish, especially using Sorcerer, you really need to be good aligned. You're going to want Abjurant Champion, which means you need to be able to use (Greater) Luminous Armor. Any given Sorcerer should try to use the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick to help get around the limited number of spells known, especially a gish who's going to be casting quite a few buffs only once/day. Normally a spontaneous caster can't use sanctified spells like Luminous Armor, but you could possibly put it on that Runestaff, otherwise there's a feat called Arcane Preparation that will allow you to prepare and cast sanctified spells. Most Sorcerer-based gishes dip two levels of Paladin for Cha synergy, and use Sacred Exorcist to get more BAB out of the build, which are more reasons to be good aligned. Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) is a CG variant that would probably be more fitting for this character.

For a gestalt character, you can probably get a lot of Cha synergy. How well it works out sort of depends on how you're doing BAB and base saves. For example, if a Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Sorcerer 20 would get a +20 BAB, because at every level one of those classes gives +1 BAB, then you don't have much to worry about. You're also going to want an alternate cost method of applying metamagic to your spells, which is typically gained via Incantatrix's 2nd and 3rd levels, Spelldancer's 1st level, or the Illumian race with the Naenhoon runeword. Incantatrix abilities are all Int-based, which is not ideal for a Sorcerer. Spelldancer can be used until you get tired of dancing, if you're immune to fatigue and have a way of fixing ability damage then there's no limit to how many spells you can add metamagic to, but it cannot be used with Evocation or Necromancy spells. Illumian with Naenhoon uses turn/rebuke undead similar to Divine Metamagic, without the restriction to divine spells but it can only be used 2/day. I'm going to recommend using both Incantatrix and Spelldancer, the former is for Evocation and Necromancy spells and the latter is for all other spells you'll need.

I'll assume you'll be sticking to Tibbit, which is fine. I'm going to include Chaos Monk from Dragon 335, the only difference other than alignment is that Flurry of Blows adds 1d4-1 extra attacks, so 0-3 extra swings if you choose to use it. You'll want two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats, Forlorn costs your familiar and Love of Nature is a good choice. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. You'll also be hiring an NPC Psion to manifest a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you after you've taken your second Paladin of Freedom level.
1. Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) Paladin of Freedom 1 // Sorcerer 1, Combat Casting, Endurance, Versatile Spellcaster
2. Cobra-Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) Chaos Monk 1// Sorcerer 2, Dodge
3. Cobra-Strike Chaos Monk 2// Sorcerer 3, Mobility, Ascetic Knight*
4. Paladin of Freedom 2// Sorcerer 4, Ascetic Knight Ancestral Relic*
5. Binder 1// Spellsword 1
6. Binder 2// Spelldancer 1, Extend Spell
7. Binder 3// Incantatrix 1, Persistent Spell
8. Cloistered Cleric 1// Incantatrix 2, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Luck Domain
9. Cloistered Cleric 2// Incantatrix 3, Ascetic Mage
10. Cloistered Cleric 3// Incantatrix 4, Fell Drain Spell
11. Horizon Walker 1// Sorcerer 5, Desert terrain mastery
12. Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 1// Sorcerer 6, Fell Frighten Spell
13. Arcane Duelist 2// Sorcerer 7
14. Mystic Wanderer 1// Sorcerer 8
15. Abjurant Champion 1// Wilder 1, Combat Reflexes?
16. Abjurant Champion 2// Wilder 2
17. Abjurant Champion 3// Wilder 3
18. Abjurant Champion 4// Wilder 4, Psicrystal Affinity
19. Abjurant Champion 5// Wilder 5
20. Paragnostic Apostle 1// Wilder 6, Mind Over Matter or Spatial Awareness

You add your Cha bonus to saves from Paladin of Freedom, you add your Cha bonus to AC from Chaos Monk + Ascetic Mage, Arcane Duelist, and Mystic Wanderer, and you add your Cha bonus to your touch AC from Wilder. Using psionic/magic transparency, your manifester level for Wilder will be equal to your BAB thanks to Abjurant Champion, and you should be able to use your metamagic tricks with your psionic powers. In any case, keep Share Pain active on your Psicrystal at all times, remember its Hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain, and keep it in a compartment on your person so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it or hit it with area effects.

The Cleric levels are to qualify for Mystic Wanderer, you need a Wis 12+ for it to work. Use Turn Undead to power Travel Devotion, and prepare spells like Omen of Peril. You always want to bind Naberius for the Fast Ability Healing, and Horizon Walker makes you immune to fatigue so you'll have no limit to the number of spells you can spelldance each day. Note that you're qualifying early for Spelldancer by having a 3rd level spell on your Runestaff and using Versatile Spellcaster to cast it. You should consider a second Psychic Reformation to get rid of Versatile Spellcaster, move Extend Spell to 1st and Ancestral Relic to 6th, and put Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd and invest as many skill points as you can into it for the greatest return. Make your item familiar a ring and wear a glove or gauntlet over it so nobody has line of sight/effect to it and it cannot be targeted or slight of handed. Item familiars are intelligent items which means they're regarded as constructs, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and even continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas.

[Jeff the Green]

what would be the dips lv 10 and prc 6?

Edit:

Sorry for being a noob. like I said first campaign. I've got a lot to learn.

Dips: Marshal, Paladin of Whatever 2, Battledancer, Ranger + Witch Hunter, other things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) that give Charisma to something. An example would be Marshal 3/Paladin 2/Battledancer 1/Ranger 1/Witch Hunter 1/I dunno 2. Not necessarily in that order. Charisma to saves twice, AC, and initiative and one other thing (likely damage while flanking) for you and all your allies within 60'. Maybe Crusader or Incarnate for the last two; ToB and incarnum are very dippable. It also only costs you 1 BAB (2 if the last two levels are in a non-full BAB class).

Speaking of BAB, I forgot that some of those levels should probably be in Knight of the Sacred Seal rather than Binder, both for the BAB and for Charisma to AC and Reflex 1/5 rounds. Probably levels 15-19.

Abjurant Champion is the standard Gish PrC, but it's not as good for someone who's non-good. Since you'll be getting BAB from the other side, you could go with Incantatrix and persist some spells, or Fiend-blooded to learn some new ones, even ones from other lists.