Is a Dex-based Fighter at all viable?

[RyanW1019]

Hello all,

I had the idea for a character concept recently. With my limited knowledge of and experience with D&D mechanics, I don't know whether this is something that is viable or whether it's just a bad idea. I was hoping that some people with a bit more experience could give me some feedback on the idea and maybe tell me how to succeed.

My character concept started with the idea that in most fights in today's fiction (movies, books, etc.) don't just have two combatants wailing on each other until one of them drops over dead; they spend more time blocking or avoiding blows than they do getting hit by them. I was wondering if it were possible to come up with an unconventional melee build focused around being quick enough with a sword to block or dodge attacks (high Dex instead of Str). I know that I can take Weapon Finesse to use my Dex bonus on attack rolls and an Agile weapon to give me a Dex bonus to damage, but I'm mostly just curious about the viability of the general concept of being a "fake tank" with very high Dex but not a lot of armor or health that can still survive in melee combat.

Here's a list of all the feats I've come up with so far that might be useful:

Weapon Finesse
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Furious Focus
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Vital Strike
Agile Maneuvers
Improved Critical
Shield of Swings
Power Attack

I'd like to be able to dish out some damage if possible (I have some vague plans on getting my hands on a Agile/Keen Elven Curve Blade since my character is an elf), but I'd settle for being able to stay alive in melee. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance for replying.

[deuxhero]

Vital strike is one of the worst feats in the game (Or it would be, but Paizo has printed a few feats that literally don't do anything or worse). Power attack interacts poorly with dex based. Dodge and mobility are useless, Spring Attack is shot by requiring 2 useless feats as requirements.

If you want dex based melee, you have two options, both use Dervish Dancer

1: Magus, who is pretty much born for it (has a free hand anyways, loves 18-20 crit range)
2: Dawnflower Dervish who gets it for free

Pretty much anyone else who takes the feat is going to wind up inferior to a 2-hander user, or is a pretty bad class already. This may change in the ACG's release, as that has Swashbuckler and an alternate dex to damage apparently.

If you want to avoid spells (bad idea), Dervish Dancer Bard/Cavalier/Battle Herald is... usable I guess, if boring and inferior to the same build with strength and dex swaped using a 2 hander.

[avr]

The feat you're missing there is Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat).

If you want to make real use of a fighter's feats it's better IMO to specialise in some combat maneuver. Lore Warden is a good archetype especially since you're going to be using light armor anyway. Spring Attack and Vital Strike are famously traps.

Edit: Ninja'd. Or at least Dervished.

[malonkey1]

Damn. Swordsage'd

If you are okay with using scimitars, you could use Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat). It sticks you with using just a Scimitar, one-handed, but it allows you to off-load Strength a little more onto Dex.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It is in the long run with the right feats/class/items (namely Dervish Dance feat or Agile weapon), but the only way to get it all going from level 1 is to be a Dawnflower Dervish bard. Hardly a bad option... Aside from the DD Bard, Magus is a popular route for dervish dance feat since it has to fight 1-handed anyway. For agile enhancement, your best bet is a natural weapons* -based character, since you can stick Agile on an Amulet of Mighty Fists without paying +1 enhancement first, so it actually ends up cheaper/earlier level despite each +1 of the AoMF costing more than a weapon enhancement. Lots of options here: Druid, Synthesist Summoner, getting claws and bite via race, or racial bite + Natural Weapons style Ranger dip (who can take a feat at level 2 to gain claws). I had a lot of success doing a Goblin Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist that used Feral Mutagen to fight with claws and bite with an agile AoMF (goblin gives +FOUR dex and access to the wonderful Roll With It feat).
* Or unarmed, but unarmed style combat is so horribly weak that it's basically never an optimal route.

Never take Agile Maneuvers, though. Most of the good maneuvers are weapon-based already and thus finesse already lets you use Dex. I really with Agile Maneuvers didn't exist, it's a ludicrous additional feat tax that should've just been folded into finesse. Also, maneuvers in general are weak in pathfinder. Double also...you're usually limited by size on who you can use maneuvers on, and growing larger tends to lower dexterity. So dex-based maneuver-using builds are generally a poor idea.
Grapple actually isn't size limited, so a dextrous grappler is possible (you'd want to be tiny since grapple isn't "weapon-based" -- tiny and smaller automatically use Dex for all combat maneuvers -- use reduce person if necessary).
For tripping, there's a feat called Fury's Fall that adds Dex to trip checks on top of strength. If you have Finesse to replace str with dex on attack rolls...you're now adding dex to the check twice, legitimately. Of course, tripping is limited to foes up to 1 size larger, so a dex-tripper is going to be limited in use.

The Power Attack line might be tough to get the Str for if doing a Dex build, and Furious Focus is a poor feat, the only reason to take it IMO is for the *much* later on feat, Dreadful Carnage (free action demoralize to all within 30 ft every time you drop someone - wow!).

Vital Strike is a trap option unless you're built for it with insanely ginormous base weapon damage (so...a druid wildshaped as a behemoth hippo or a synthesist summoner grown to max size and with improved damage evolution), which you *will not* have as a dex-based character.

Shield of Swings is pretty poor, too. Sorry if I'm shooting down half the feats on your list. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Another good feat-trait combo, and thematically fitting (for the DD Bard at least; trait and archetype both require worshipping the sun goddess) is Blade of Mercy trait with Enforcer feat. Former lets you do nonlethal w/o penalty with slashing weapons and you do +1 damage when doing so. Latter gives a free demoralize on every foe you hit nonlethally, leaving them shaken for rounds = damage dealt and if you crit they're frightened for 1 round, too. Combines extremely well with the Dervish Dance feat since scimitar is an 18-20/x2 weapon. I'd take it for DD Bard or a Magus build, and probably for some other builds, too.

[upho]

The Power Attack line might be tough to get the Str for if doing a Dex buildWell, there's Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat), which is basically a dex-based PA for finesse weapons, though it sadly doesn't count as PA for all the tons of feats in the PA chain. If Path of War is allowed, there's also Deadly Agility which adds dex to damage (frees you from having to use an Agile weapon) and Double Weapon Finesse of you'd like to use a double weapon (treat both ends as light weapons for the purposes of Finesse and TWF).

I suspect the OP is actually asking whether a dex-based build of the fighter class is viable, and my answer would be no. You won't be able to access many of the actually useful feats otherwise available, you'll be extremely limited in terms of weapon choices, and you have to pay a feat tax (or more) on top of an expensive magic weapon ability tax. The fighter class also has very little to gain from being dex-based in melee, unlike the above mentioned Dervish bard, magus and natural attack builds. Though if you go with one of those builds, I guess a 2-4 levels Lore Warden fighter dip might be good idea in some cases.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, there's Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat), which is basically a dex-based PA for finesse weapons, though it sadly doesn't count as PA for all the tons of feats in the PA chain.

Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) is fine and my alchemist made heavy use of it, but aside from the very painful "not counting as PA for other feats" issue, it does also have a "donut hole" in coverage whereby a dervish dancer can't apply it to his scimitar (other, normally finesseable weapons like elven courtblade or rapier face the same problem) because the feat specifically only works with actual light weapons. A most unfortunate hold up. At least for the Magus, you don't ever want PA or similar feats anyway, since you're medium BAB, taking a -2 to hit (spell combat) already, and have big bonus damage riding on hitting (spellstrike with frost bite or shocking grasp).

[I3igAl]

I'd like to be able to dish out some damage if possible (I have some vague plans on getting my hands on a Agile/Keen Elven Curve Blade since my character is an elf), but I'd settle for being able to stay alive in melee. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance for replying.

The Elven Curve Blade build works well. Sadly you still need Str 13 for Power Attack, but then you can THPA, while being Dex dependent. The Lorewarden Archetype is really strong and you don't need really heavy armor with your Dex.




Are you dead set on being a Fighter? Because an Urban Barbarian could make a great Dex Build too with the Curve Blade too.

[malonkey1]

Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) is fine and my alchemist made heavy use of it, but aside from the very painful "not counting as PA for other feats" issue, it does also have a "donut hole" in coverage whereby a dervish dancer can't apply it to his scimitar (other, normally finesseable weapons like elven courtblade or rapier face the same problem) because the feat specifically only works with actual light weapons. A most unfortunate hold up. At least for the Magus, you don't ever want PA or similar feats anyway, since you're medium BAB, taking a -2 to hit (spell combat) already, and have big bonus damage riding on hitting (spellstrike with frost bite or shocking grasp).

Yeah, I wish the language just said to treat the scimitar as a light weapon.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think it'd be simpler and better if piranha strike just worked on all finesse weapons, rather than add text to all finesse weapons to treat them as light. (Plus, counting as light could have other, unforeseen negative consequences for the finesse weapon user).

[gooddragon1]

Where is shadow blade in all this? Full dex to damage with certain weapons while in a shadow hand stance...?

[torrasque666]

Where is shadow blade in all this? Full dex to damage with certain weapons while in a shadow hand stance...?

Was that included in the DSP adaption of the Tome of Battle? Because I don't believe that is in Pathfinder.

[upho]

I think it'd be simpler and better if piranha strike just worked on all finesse weapons, rather than add text to all finesse weapons to treat them as light. (Plus, counting as light could have other, unforeseen negative consequences for the finesse weapon user).This is how I run it. But I've also made piranha a part of PA, and everyone gets Finesse, Deadly Agility and Agile Maneuvers for free (and Fury's Fall adds either dex or str to trip maneuvers, player's choice). So basically you choose whether your melee is str- or dex-based, and the "only" drawback of going dex-based is the limited number of weapons you can use. IMO, the taxes on dex-based melee are simply ridiculous according to RAW, making me wonder why they even made it a general alternative in the first place.


Where is shadow blade in all this? Full dex to damage with certain weapons while in a shadow hand stance...?Please tell us where we can find this!

Was that included in the DSP adaption of the Tome of Battle? Because I don't believe that is in Pathfinder.Hmm... The closest thing I know of is the Umbral Blade PrC's "Shadow Blade" class feature, but IIRC that adds wis to damage instead of str and is restricted to Veiled Moon discipline weapons (light blades, double weapons, spears?). I think it also makes any Veiled Moon weapon "Finessable".

*checks PoW pdf*

Yeah, that's how it works, and it adds 1d6 damage. Seems like a good choice for a stealthy assassin-ish stalker, but not really viable for anyone else due to the "3rd level Veiled Moon maneuvers" entry requirement.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the stalker and especially the Veiled Moon discipline is unusually well suited for dex- (or wis-) based melee, as it also opens for very powerful "telepounce" shenanigans (through the many teleportation maneuvers and Dimensional Assault).